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Thread: Psychological unhealtiness and immaturity

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    Default Psychological unhealtiness and immaturity

    Based just in socionics, what makes or could make a person unhealthy or immature?

    Is there an explanation that socionics gives to psychological unhealthiness and immaturity in people?

    (Please forget about non socionics related causes like for example, child abuse.)



    Share your thoughts and experiences.
    Last edited by BOT; 11-05-2018 at 09:48 PM.

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    Generally, I define unhealthiness as based on a failure of self-awareness. Jung included the unconscious in his definition of the "self." That said, I think the more conscious one becomes of the shadow contents, the healthier they become. They become more capable of taking control of their own lives, more self-sufficient, and more adaptable.

    I've never seen a Socionics explanation for health levels. I'm sure a theory about it probably exists, but it doesn't enter regular discussions. Given that Jung's descriptions of the psychological types was based largely on people he viewed as "imbalanced", and Socionics derives from his work, I'd say that if we made a Socionics theory about health, it would argue that the more a person starts to look like their dual, the healthier they are. Unconscious, but valued functions start to be incorporated in one's thinking with greater sophistication. If we're thinking about long-term health, unvalued functions could play a role as well, despite not being part of the regular program.
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    The only part of socionics that vaguely covers any regarding the healthiness of individuals is intertype relations and how being around favorable types can increase an individual's health while unfavorable types can decrease it. Other then that unhealthiness is mostly determined by non-socionics factors such as having a dad who beat you savagely with a pair of jumper cables for years on end, but you've stated not to discuss those so I won't delve deeper into those topics.

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    @A Moderator
    Sounds good. Not entirely sure about starting to look like the dual, though. The other day I was reading that types start looking or presenting more characteristics typical of their own type when dualized, probably as consequence of the partner's need. That's true in my experience.

    From my observation also, I'd say that a person without enough information of the valued functions especially those provided by dual, could actually start acting and moving and trying to supply for him/herself in the low and unvalued elements which would lead to exhaustion, neurosis and other disorders. As example, a person raised in a home with elements of the opposite or different quadra could develop more problems than other raised in a home with valued elements.

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    I would agree with a moderator as long as you mean the sort of self-awareness that is not dependent on others. Being aware of that and making your own decisions about how to react to things that gets you to the best outcome is powerful. People who can't easily compare their model of themselves versus the model of themselves after certain actions are more likely to make regrettable decisions. I think that lends itself to socionics types pretty easily, notwithstanding the very important fact of experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    @A Moderator
    Sounds good. Not entirely sure about starting to look like the dual, though. The other day I was reading that types start looking or presenting more characteristics typical of their own type when dualized, probably as consequence of the partner's need. That's true in my experience.

    From my observation also, I'd say that a person without enough information of the valued functions especially those provided by dual, could actually start acting and moving and trying to supply for him/herself in the low and unvalued elements which would lead to exhaustion, neurosis and other disorders. As example, a person raised in a home with elements of the opposite or different quadra could develop more problems than other raised in a home with valued elements.
    Yeah I agree with this perspective. People don't act like their duals most of the time. You can only activate the superid block for very short periods of time, and it uses a lot of energy. Full activation of your superid block is like god mode for whatever type you are. For a very short time, you're as close to invincible as a human can be, and you can break down obstacles that would normally thwart you or destroy you. You can even beat your supervisor. But like I said, that's rare.

    When people are dualized, they become most like themselves, not like their duals. In mystical terms like the ones Crowley used, they become "ipsissimus" which means most like oneself. The superego falls away along with the id and one only acts from one's true nature. You learn how to act only from your strongest points. This efficient psychological activity helps you save energy for those few times in life when you really need to activate the superid block to break through some hugely difficult part of your life, if you don't have a dual to do it for you.

    People who say that dualization is about becoming balanced and learning how to use weak functions are BSing. You learn how to maximize your strengths and use them effectively. The creative function is the opportunity for greatest development. If you focus on anything other than the dominant function, do that. The creative is like your own personal magic wand that you can use to change your world.

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    Socionics is not a causation of the subject though different types will express immaturity or unhealthiness differently. It should only refer to data processing structures that control cognition; however, when one has a faulty or unstable computer, the apps do funny things.....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    @A Moderator
    Sounds good. Not entirely sure about starting to look like the dual, though. The other day I was reading that types start looking or presenting more characteristics typical of their own type when dualized, probably as consequence of the partner's need. That's true in my experience.
    I would say that in some ways they start looking like both. When you interact with someone who leads with your suggestive function, their information becomes metabolized as expected. Ie. it seems like it's processed with your suggestive function. Consequently, the base function becomes stimulated and conscious because it naturally takes conscious priority over the naturally subconscious suggestive function. The suggestive feeds into the base, in other words, and the net result is that both become amplified. It seems, also, that there must be a link between the two where no link between them and others is present, and I wonder if this is what is really implied in the terms valued and unvalued.

    If Jung's concept of individuation, or becoming more whole and balanced, has anything to do with cognitive functions, then perhaps duality facilitates individuation. According to Jung, individuation occurs in the presence of others.

    Individuation: the process by which a person integrates unconscious contents into consciousness, thereby becoming a psychologically whole individual. Self-realization. Release from persona and identification with the collective unconscious. An ongoing dialog between ego and Self in which the ego is relativized. Individuation can only unfold in the context of a relationship with others.In life's first half individuation takes the form of adaptation to culture; in the second half, the ego turns inward and confronts the archetypal ground behind it. Individuation is the human expression of life's inborn urge toward growth, expansion, and development of innate capacities. It is therefore both a synthesis and an entelechy of the self, a creation of the new and expression of something already present in germinal form.
    Classic individuation falls very roughly into four categories, all of which recur and interpenetrate: shadow work, anima/animus work, Wise Old Man/Wise Woman work, and Self work. At each stage the ego integrates the personal aspect of the constellated key archetype; energy from its nonpersonal aspect regresses into the unconscious to activate the next archetype. Individuation is not a road, it's a spiral around the Self.
    Individuation begins with guilt and need for expiation due to splitting with conformity, for which the person must give some equivalent: values that help the community.
    From my observation also, I'd say that a person without enough information of the valued functions especially those provided by dual, could actually start acting and moving and trying to supply for him/herself in the low and unvalued elements which would lead to exhaustion, neurosis and other disorders. As example, a person raised in a home with elements of the opposite or different quadra could develop more problems than other raised in a home with valued elements.
    It's possible. For example, if you spend a lot of time around someone who seeks your PoLR, you may grow to think that you should improve areas that involve your PoLR in order to solve interpersonal problems. Which could lead to one-sidedness and neurosis.

    I do wonder if duality just rolls out the carpet for dependence and atrophy, in the long term, though. Jung states that the second stage of individuation occurs more as an inward process, which could involve reflection on the first phase.

    So, on the whole, dual seeking could occur in cycles, within the scope of individuation.
    Last edited by A Moderator; 11-07-2018 at 01:10 AM.
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    @Aramas if it's just about capitalizing on strengths, then why not just go full ham and stick with your identical?
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Moderator View Post
    @Aramas if it's just about capitalizing on strengths, then why not just go full ham and stick with your identical?
    Because you can't do dual shit 99% of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Because you can't do dual shit 99% of the time.
    Intertype relations depends on information processing, not what's done. If you don't get your toes wet in your dual's world (mentally), information won't be processed accurately within the relation.
    Last edited by A Moderator; 11-07-2018 at 07:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Moderator View Post
    Generally, I define unhealthiness as based on a failure of self-awareness. Jung included the unconscious in his definition of the "self." That said, I think the more conscious one becomes of the shadow contents, the healthier they become. They become more capable of taking control of their own lives, more self-sufficient, and more adaptable.

    I've never seen a Socionics explanation for health levels. I'm sure a theory about it probably exists, but it doesn't enter regular discussions. Given that Jung's descriptions of the psychological types was based largely on people he viewed as "imbalanced", and Socionics derives from his work, I'd say that if we made a Socionics theory about health, it would argue that the more a person starts to look like their dual, the healthier they are. Unconscious, but valued functions start to be incorporated in one's thinking with greater sophistication. If we're thinking about long-term health, unvalued functions could play a role as well, despite not being part of the regular program.
    Mmmm, I agree with this, though maybe it's because of personal bias, since I feel driven to become more like ILEs. It feels like an important part of self-actualizing to incorporate the ILE's strengths into my own psyche. Otherwise, I can't even do SEI things with as much finesse, let alone Ne/Ti things.

    For instance, making artistic things: I have to think in terms of the whole picture and what the underlying tone of the design should be. Then, I have to think about each individual detail of the project and how it contributes to that overall whole, considering new possible alternatives to the design at hand until I get the correct aesthetic tone. The detailed part is easy; visualizing the whole and processing the overall impression is harder, but gets easier the more often I try it. I'm pretty sure this is both Si and Ne being used together..

    Then, there's the way ILEs can discuss their ideas in public spaces without excessive concern for the emotional comfort of others? Fi PoLR. This may not be a positive thing in all cases, but I think it's an important trait for this dyad. In contrast, the SEI tends to be more reserved and cautious about offending people (I think - just generally speaking) which is good for maintaining personal relations, but not good for the open exploration and promotion of ideas. I really, really don't like feeling unable to talk about things of importance to me due to social restrictions...so I want to learn to be a little more 'thick skinned' about it.

    Also there's demonstrative Te....you need Te to get anything done well, long term. I don't see how I could actually improve as a person without addressing this basic skill.

    So basically, overall, I think becoming more like my dual is a sign of good health and growth. Also, that's not to say that the type's ego functions should be minimized, either. They should be used just as much, just with the help of their complementary functions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    From my observation also, I'd say that a person without enough information of the valued functions especially those provided by dual, could actually start acting and moving and trying to supply for him/herself in the low and unvalued elements which would lead to exhaustion, neurosis and other disorders. As example, a person raised in a home with elements of the opposite or different quadra could develop more problems than other raised in a home with valued elements.
    I agree with most of this. I grew up in a home with two Ne-PoLRs (one of which is ESI-expects me to be like her dual, aha) and I've definitely seen myself trying to supply my own Ne and Ti since I got none of what I needed from my home life. But I don't think it's made me more unhealthy, hmm....but this may or may not be true for others who've had this experience...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    The only part of socionics that vaguely covers any regarding the healthiness of individuals is intertype relations and how being around favorable types can increase an individual's health while unfavorable types can decrease it. Other then that unhealthiness is mostly determined by non-socionics factors such as having a dad who beat you savagely with a pair of jumper cables for years on end, but you've stated not to discuss those so I won't delve deeper into those topics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Socionics is not a causation of the subject though different types will express immaturity or unhealthiness differently. It should only refer to data processing structures that control cognition; however, when one has a faulty or unstable computer, the apps do funny things.....
    Agreed.

    Socionics doesn't explain where character flaws "come from" nor do I think it should. But it can tell you how they are expressed, and also how to quash them once they arise.

    "Unhealthiness" is typically manifested as neglect of weak or unvalued functions. Conversely, successfully using all functions is a sign of self-development, insofar as it's possible within the bounds of type. There's also using your particular strengths as a way of helping greater society rather than just for yourself - but, this is much easier to do, compared to developing weak functions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Agreed.

    Socionics doesn't explain where character flaws "come from" nor do I think it should. But it can tell you how they are expressed, and also how to quash them once they arise.
    Then don't claim that Socionics has the complete list of every single possible human cognition there could ever be (in the form of 8 functions), because that is impossible to know without first establishing the theoretical framework of "where it comes from".

    Only after you have found some rules governing what kind of possible cognition could arise, and why, then you can find out what they are, and indeed, successfully predict them.

    If not, then these will forever remain an unfinished list of current observations.

    --

    To answer the question, the obvious possibilities are either genetic or environmental influences. Those should be more or less obvious. You can say that for example, child abuse stunts the normal growth of a child by having the parent excessively suppress the child's needs and desires. And this would cause "immaturity".

    Answer: If a psychological growth is stunted in some ways, then a certain immaturity is developed.

    But what of... Socionics explanations? You can say well, having weak functions neglected would cause unhealthiness. But... why? Why would having weak functions neglected cause unhealthiness? This is not explained, other than "it just does". It might cause frustration if what you seek is not fulfilled. But does it really cause unhealthiness? And in what way? And wouldn't it depend entirely on how the person deals with the frustration? What if the person tries to find an alternate source?

    Or well you can say, being in a conflictor relation would cause unhealthiness. But this is just to say you put two people in a room and they ended up being unhealthy, therefore that was the cause. So correlation and not causation. Again, no real explanation of why. And if we do find out the reason why, then it'll likely turn up to be a "non-Socionics related" reason. Because we already have the explanations for them.

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    Some think those issues are caused by too severe accentuations of functions at the expense of others regarding actual type.

    Person who only uses base let's say Ne would be the most scattered person there is ̣- totally de-focused and running on things.
    You can suggest an alternative type based on video found in HERE

    extrospection > introspection



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    Based just in socionics, what makes or could make a person unhealthy or immature?
    In general, weak functions work below of social norms. They are immature.
    Those weak functions may do too wrong evaluations. Also they are out of the good conscious control and may oppose to the conscious. This may predispose to psyche disorders.

    For example, weak S may predispose at some types to inadequate aesthetic perception like dysmorphophobia (Si) or wrong perception or problematic use of own force and will (Se) like neurasthenia.
    Weak T may predispose to hysterical ignoring of the reality with a range of symptoms like unusually easy forgeting, rejection of the evident facts or the loss of perceptions like hysterical blindness.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaiviay View Post
    Mmmm, I agree with this, though maybe it's because of personal bias, since I feel driven to become more like ILEs. It feels like an important part of self-actualizing to incorporate the ILE's strengths into my own psyche. Otherwise, I can't even do SEI things with as much finesse, let alone Ne/Ti things.

    For instance, making artistic things: I have to think in terms of the whole picture and what the underlying tone of the design should be. Then, I have to think about each individual detail of the project and how it contributes to that overall whole, considering new possible alternatives to the design at hand until I get the correct aesthetic tone. The detailed part is easy; visualizing the whole and processing the overall impression is harder, but gets easier the more often I try it. I'm pretty sure this is both Si and Ne being used together..

    Then, there's the way ILEs can discuss their ideas in public spaces without excessive concern for the emotional comfort of others? Fi PoLR. This may not be a positive thing in all cases, but I think it's an important trait for this dyad. In contrast, the SEI tends to be more reserved and cautious about offending people (I think - just generally speaking) which is good for maintaining personal relations, but not good for the open exploration and promotion of ideas. I really, really don't like feeling unable to talk about things of importance to me due to social restrictions...so I want to learn to be a little more 'thick skinned' about it.

    Also there's demonstrative Te....you need Te to get anything done well, long term. I don't see how I could actually improve as a person without addressing this basic skill.

    So basically, overall, I think becoming more like my dual is a sign of good health and growth. Also, that's not to say that the type's ego functions should be minimized, either. They should be used just as much, just with the help of their complementary functions.
    Yes, exactly.

    When I listen to an Si lead talk about their experiences, I "sink in" to Si just enough to use their experiences as a platform for discovering possibilities. The drive to explore multiple applications, implications, and connections between the experiences comes naturally and energetically. This is also why art has been a very energizing thing in my life - it stimulates the imagination and opens up many paths for exploring potential. For example, a novel, such as the ones written by Mark Twain, could stimulate discussions and debates around social issues such as free speech. Or a homemade wristband could generate discussion about geology, Native Americans, business practices, 80's pop culture, nuclear centrifuges, etc. So Si generally promotes growth.

    Discussing ideas in public spaces - I think it's important that ILE has someone that will listen to this, since many people will guilt trip or punish, shutting things down in some way. And also it's useful for someone to teach ILE about the social context and help with Fe. The social context can be thought provoking and surprisingly informative in terms of how to frame ideas, concepts, and thoughts. I've learned from ESE how to do this, but SEI tends to listen before reframing, which is better.

    In terms of the demonstrative, it's like SEI brings Fi as a strength while also downplaying in such a way that's palatable for ILE. I imagine you see demonstrative Te the same way. I couldn't improve as a person without addressing psychological distance, either.

    Duality is energizing on the whole, and informative. Shwing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    ......."Unhealthiness" is typically manifested as neglect of weak or unvalued functions. Conversely, successfully using all functions is a sign of self-development, insofar as it's possible within the bounds of type. There's also using your particular strengths as a way of helping greater society rather than just for yourself - but, this is much easier to do, compared to developing weak functions.........
    Function cannot be developed or neglected; one operates within the bounds of a fixed cognitive structure. To better produce a particular outcome, people have to learn to do it within the constraints of their existing configurations and filters; they cannot magically switch in different configurations through practice. However, all types can learn to produce similar outcomes but these won't be produced by similar cognitive processes........

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Function cannot be developed or neglected; one operates within the bounds of a fixed cognitive structure. To better produce a particular outcome, people have to learn to do it within the constraints of their existing configurations and filters; they cannot magically switch in different configurations through practice. However, all types can learn to produce similar outcomes but these won't be produced by similar cognitive processes........

    a.k.a. I/O
    "To [learn to] better produce a particular outcome"

    That's what I mean by development. You're being awfully pedantic.
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