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Thread: Curious Dichotomies: Type-Related?

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Default Curious Dichotomies: Type-Related?

    I saw a chart on Facebook that showed there are two groups of people: those who don't pay attention to their facial expressions, and those for whom it is usually conscious and intentional. I fit into the latter category and wondered whether this is type-related.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spencer Greenberg
    Here’s a social characteristic that divides us (roughly) into two groups that I think few people are aware of: how often, during a typical face to face conversation, do you pay attention to or visualize what your facial expressions must look like to the other person?

    I first became aware of this distinction during a conversation with friends, where we stumbled on the realization that we are very different from each other in this way. I am almost never aware of my face, whereas one of my friends is aware of it most of the time when other people are around.

    We ran a little study on this quality, and it turns out it is remarkably bimodal, reflecting two rather distinct groups of people! And these two groups still persist even if you only consider young or old, male or female, high education or low education, high income or low income.

    The bimodal nature of this quite surprised me because most complex traits I’ve seen in humans are unimodal (i.e. with a single peak representing the most common value of that trait, with fewer and fewer people the further you get from that peak as would, for example, be the case for any trait following a bell curve distribution).

    To learn more about this trait, I recruited 200 people in the U.S. via our Positly.com study recruitment platform. I found that 45% said “Yes” and 55% said “No” to the question “In face to face conversation, do you find yourself visualizing, noticing or paying attention to what your facial expressions must look like to the other person?” A nearly even split!

    To get a more nuanced perspective, I also asked people to say what percent of the time (in a typical face to face conversation) they find themself visualizing, noticing or paying attention to what their facial expressions must look like to the other person.

    As you can see in the graphic below (which shows the frequency of different answers to the question), people commonly people report being aware of what their face looks like during typical conversation 0-30% of the time (with 0% being the most commonly reported value of all). But there is a second quite large contingent that report having this facial awareness 60-95% of the time! Hence, it forms two fairly distinct groups, the “facially self-unaware” (like me) and the “facially self-aware” (like my friend).

    It makes me wonder: how many other major differences in people’s mental behaviors are there that we are totally unaware of? It’s really common for us to just assume other people work the way we do. For instance, people with synesthesia (who experiencing a mixing of the senses, such as perceiving a color associated with each word) often go many years before realizing they are different than other people. They don’t think to mention that the word tiger is green to them, just as we may never think to mention that we do (or don’t) have awareness of what our own face is like during conversation!
    I also saw a fuller list of such dichotomies and thought more might be type-related.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spencer Greenberg
    It’s easy to underestimate just how remarkably different people’s internal psychological experiences can be. “Psychological outliers” may be much more common than you think, because there are so many ways a person can be an outlier.

    If you are a psychological outlier in some way, you may assume others are much more like you than they really are (much the way that synesthetes, who have mixing of different sensory inputs in their brains, often grow up believing that everyone has synesthesia). That means you may be a psychological outlier in some way without knowing it!

    And if you’re not an outlier in a particular way, you may never guess that someone’s internal experience could be so vastly different. Even if 5% of people have that trait, and it causes very different internal experiences than the ones you have but doesn’t manifest in obviously different behaviors, you might not notice it exists. So these “outliers” don’t necessarily have to be that rare to be difficult to notice.

    Here are a few real examples of some of the most extraordinarily different psychologies I’ve witnessed or experienced:

    --

    People who…

    (1) can control things about themselves that people don’t normally view humans as being in control of (e.g. can choose to quickly lower their heart rate, or can choose to suddenly make themselves feel happier if they want) vs. those who aren’t in control of things that people normally think we all control (e.g. they feel as though they are literally unable to take action in certain types of situations regardless of how bad the consequences of inaction are, or they can’t stop thinking about a certain thing no matter how much they want to)

    (2) view themselves as truly special, capable of world changing things that no one else is, or existing for a singular and unique purpose, vs. people who view themselves as inherently inferior to others, or fundamentally not deserving of love

    (3) lack any desire for friendship and have no negative feelings about long periods of solitude vs. those who prefer to spend literally every hour of their waking time around others

    (4) control their internal state primarily by treating their body as a chemical machine and consciously varying the inputs (e.g. caffeine, certain foods, nicotine, marijuana, alcohol, microdoses, modafinil, adderall) vs. those who purposely avoid any substance that causes significant changes in their internal state

    (5) have virtually no awareness of the facial expressions they are making vs. are almost always aware of their facial expression at all times in social settings

    (6) are nearly completely lacking in one specific emotion (e.g. they have little idea what a “depressive” state means because they’ve almost never experienced one, or they have almost never had an experience of awe) vs. people who experience specific emotions orders of magnitude more often than is typical (e.g. they find humor in almost everything)

    (7) have almost no awareness of certain types of social status related information (e.g. who is trying to suck up to whom and who is trying to signal what) vs. people who view social status information as so real and noticeable that it’s like observing a person’s hair color

    (8) have almost no ability to change how they feel emotionally by changing their cognitive beliefs about a thing vs. can usually “snap” their emotions into alignment immediately using their cognitive beliefs when the two are out of sync

    (9) view coincidences and strange occurrences as being deeply meaningful and fundamentally non-random vs. those who view most of their existence as being driven by unavoidable but totally meaningless chance

    (10) have extremely limited abilities to guess what emotion another person is feeling in a given situation vs. those who constantly are aware of the emotional states of the other people in the room

    (11) view it as abstractly bad when another person is very unhappy and want to help, but experience essentially no emotion about it vs. those who viscerally experience pain when they see (or even hear of) someone else who is very unhappy, and can’t imagine what it would be like to not feel compelled to help
    If I get enough responses for the following, I'll chart it.
    #3 looked too related to introversion/extroversion.
    #6 has too wide a range of emotions to consider. I'd be green for one and red for another.
    #8 and #9 seemed vague.

    1. can control things about themselves that people don’t normally view humans as being in control of (e.g. can choose to quickly lower their heart rate, or can choose to suddenly make themselves feel happier if they want)
    vs.
    those who aren’t in control of things that people normally think we all control (e.g. they feel as though they are literally unable to take action in certain types of situations regardless of how bad the consequences of inaction are, or they can’t stop thinking about a certain thing no matter how much they want to)

    2. view themselves as truly special, capable of world changing things that no one else is, or existing for a singular and unique purpose
    vs.
    people who view themselves as inherently inferior to others, or fundamentally not deserving of love

    4. control their internal state primarily by treating their body as a chemical machine and consciously varying the inputs (e.g. caffeine, certain foods, nicotine, marijuana, alcohol, microdoses, modafinil, adderall)
    vs.
    those who purposely avoid any substance that causes significant changes in their internal state

    5. have virtually no awareness of the facial expressions they are making
    vs.
    are almost always aware of their facial expression at all times in social settings

    7. have almost no awareness of certain types of social status related information (e.g. who is trying to suck up to whom and who is trying to signal what)
    vs.
    people who view social status information as so real and noticeable that it’s like observing a person’s hair color

    10. have extremely limited abilities to guess what emotion another person is feeling in a given situation
    vs.
    those who constantly are aware of the emotional states of the other people in the room

    11. view it as abstractly bad when another person is very unhappy and want to help, but experience essentially no emotion about it
    vs.
    those who viscerally experience pain when they see (or even hear of) someone else who is very unhappy, and can’t imagine what it would be like to not feel compelled to help

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    ajsindri's Avatar
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    Well its bimodally distributed, so it would be nice if it was type related. I'm not sure which group I fall into, except the one that is not consciously aware if he is consciously aware of his own facial expression.
    Check out my socionics work [link]

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    I only notice it if it causes an awkward moment.

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    fka lungs ashlesha's Avatar
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    I pay attention to what i'm doing with my face on a barely conscious level. I mean, I know that I do it to some degree but it's not something im actively thinking about moment to moment unless its some kind of sensitive situation that warrants special awareness (a job interview, responding to someone in distress, etc)

    However i know from seeing myself on video and occasionally from people's reactions to me that I underestimate how expressive my face is. So there are still emotions that show on my face even when I think im keeping it in check.

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    I reflect on it less than 20% of the time (only when something is reflected back at me, particularly if the emotion seems incongruous with what I thought). I think the incongruity happens when my emotions are subconscious and surfacing on my face anyway.
    Last edited by A Moderator; 11-05-2018 at 12:49 AM.
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    I purposely smile at people, might nod to show interest or understanding. But beyond that, I don't think so. I think I'm usually listening and watching the other person's expressions instead.

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    What percentage of the time during a typical face to face conversation do you find yourself visualizing, noticing or paying attention to what your facial expressions must look like to the other person?
    Zero.

    (1) can control things about themselves that people don’t normally view humans as being in control of (e.g. can choose to quickly lower their heart rate, or can choose to suddenly make themselves feel happier if they want) vs. those who aren’t in control of things that people normally think we all control (e.g. they feel as though they are literally unable to take action in certain types of situations regardless of how bad the consequences of inaction are, or they can’t stop thinking about a certain thing no matter how much they want to)
    none

    (2) view themselves as truly special, capable of world changing things that no one else is, or existing for a singular and unique purpose, vs. people who view themselves as inherently inferior to others, or fundamentally not deserving of love
    none

    (3) lack any desire for friendship and have no negative feelings about long periods of solitude vs. those who prefer to spend literally every hour of their waking time around others
    none

    (4) control their internal state primarily by treating their body as a chemical machine and consciously varying the inputs (e.g. caffeine, certain foods, nicotine, marijuana, alcohol, microdoses, modafinil, adderall) vs. those who purposely avoid any substance that causes significant changes in their internal state
    both

    (5) have virtually no awareness of the facial expressions they are making vs. are almost always aware of their facial expression at all times in social settings

    (6) are nearly completely lacking in one specific emotion (e.g. they have little idea what a “depressive” state means because they’ve almost never experienced one, or they have almost never had an experience of awe) vs. people who experience specific emotions orders of magnitude more often than is typical (e.g. they find humor in almost everything)

    (7) have almost no awareness of certain types of social status related information (e.g. who is trying to suck up to whom and who is trying to signal what) vs. people who view social status information as so real and noticeable that it’s like observing a person’s hair color


    (8) have almost no ability to change how they feel emotionally by changing their cognitive beliefs about a thing vs. can usually “snap” their emotions into alignment immediately using their cognitive beliefs when the two are out of sync

    (9) view coincidences and strange occurrences as being deeply meaningful and fundamentally non-random vs. those who view most of their existence as being driven by unavoidable but totally meaningless chance
    none

    (10) have extremely limited abilities to guess what emotion another person is feeling in a given situation vs. those who constantly are aware of the emotional states of the other people in the room
    none

    (11) view it as abstractly bad when another person is very unhappy and want to help, but experience essentially no emotion about it vs. those who viscerally experience pain when they see (or even hear of) someone else who is very unhappy, and can’t imagine what it would be like to not feel compelled to help
    it depends

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Mine:

    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    1. neither

    2. view themselves as truly special, capable of world changing things that no one else is, or existing for a singular and unique purpose to an extent

    4. those who purposely avoid any substance that causes significant changes in their internal state

    5. are almost always aware of their facial expression at all times in social settings

    7. have almost no awareness of certain types of social status related information

    10. have extremely limited abilities to guess what emotion another person is feeling in a given situation

    11. view it as abstractly bad when another person is very unhappy and want to help, but experience essentially no emotion about it
    I relate strongly on #11 and have even felt weird about it because I'm usually surrounded by the other type of person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    nonverbal as the way of emotional influence mb linked with F types and role F which may pay _more_ attention on it
    there are no people which don't care about F region completely
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    1. can control things about themselves that people don’t normally view humans as being in control of (e.g. can choose to quickly lower their heart rate, or can choose to suddenly make themselves feel happier if they want)
    vs.
    those who aren’t in control of things that people normally think we all control (e.g. they feel as though they are literally unable to take action in certain types of situations regardless of how bad the consequences of inaction are, or they can’t stop thinking about a certain thing no matter how much they want to)
    The former - not something I've always been but something I'm trying to learn / practice.

    2.
    view themselves as truly special, capable of world changing things that no one else is, or existing for a singular and unique purpose
    vs.
    people who view themselves as inherently inferior to others, or fundamentally not deserving of love


    More often than not, the former, but occasionally will spiral to the latter if things aren't going well. I tend to think a lot of advice / rules apply to other people rather than me

    [qutote]4. control their internal state primarily by treating their body as a chemical machine and consciously varying the inputs (e.g. caffeine, certain foods, nicotine, marijuana, alcohol, microdoses, modafinil, adderall)
    vs.
    those who purposely avoid any substance that causes significant changes in their internal state[/quote]

    I try to be the latter, with the exception of alcohol and recreational drugs. I avoid drinking coffee in the morning because I don't want to use it for caffeine and become dependent on it to wake up. So yes for pleasure, no for function.

    5.
    have virtually no awareness of the facial expressions they are making
    vs.
    are almost always aware of their facial expression at all times in social settings


    I think the former but I have trouble controlling it once I have that information (I can feel my face giving me away if I'm lying for example but don't know how to make it not do that since my emotions are so on my sleeve)

    7.
    have almost no awareness of certain types of social status related information (e.g. who is trying to suck up to whom and who is trying to signal what)
    vs.
    people who view social status information as so real and noticeable that it’s like observing a person’s hair color


    100% the latter.

    10.
    have extremely limited abilities to guess what emotion another person is feeling in a given situation
    vs.
    those who constantly are aware of the emotional states of the other people in the room


    The former, and it's incredibly anxiety inducing

    11.
    view it as abstractly bad when another person is very unhappy and want to help, but experience essentially no emotion about it
    vs.
    those who viscerally experience pain when they see (or even hear of) someone else who is very unhappy, and can’t imagine what it would be like to not feel compelled to help
    The latter, again 100%.

    7, 10 and 11 are nearly constantly on my mind in social situations whereas I can dip in and out of the others.
    "I take back like half of the exclamation points.....they make me look....eager to please. Which I AM....but I don't want anyone to KNOW that"
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    I pay very little attention, I am extremely focused on words and language in conversation, sorry to say I don't pay attention much to the interlocutor and the effect I'm having on them as I'm thinking about ideas and such and often miss obvious visual things and even thoughts about things happening around me, even feelings of others I miss sometimes despite being f type. I just thought it was and N thing more or less as well as a low Ti/Te things as well as a irrational thing, as well as a lack of e3 thing. Often someone will say, did you see what that person was wearing etc and I would not have noticed at all.

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    crossed which does not apply.

    1. can control things about themselves that people don’t normally view humans as being in control of (e.g. can choose to quickly lower their heart rate, or can choose to suddenly make themselves feel happier if they want)
    vs.
    those who aren’t in control of things that people normally think we all control (e.g. they feel as though they are literally unable to take action in certain types of situations regardless of how bad the consequences of inaction are, or they can’t stop thinking about a certain thing no matter how much they want to)


    I have read the former could be linked to dialectical-algorithmic cognitive style recently.

    2. view themselves as truly special, capable of world changing things that no one else is, or existing for a singular and unique purpose
    vs.
    people who view themselves as inherently inferior to others, or fundamentally not deserving of love

    I just view myself as a "bad person" for some reason.

    4. control their internal state primarily by treating their body as a chemical machine and consciously varying the inputs (e.g. caffeine, certain foods, nicotine, marijuana, alcohol, microdoses, modafinil, adderall)
    vs.
    those who purposely avoid any substance that causes significant changes in their internal state

    I am extremly sensitive to anything that alters my internal state, and I get a shit ton of shitty side effect.

    5. have virtually no awareness of the facial expressions they are making
    vs.
    are almost always aware of their facial expression at all times in social settings

    7. have almost no awareness of certain types of social status related information (e.g. who is trying to suck up to whom and who is trying to signal what)
    vs.
    people who view social status information as so real and noticeable that it’s like observing a person’s hair color

    10. have extremely limited abilities to guess what emotion another person is feeling in a given situation
    vs.
    those who constantly are aware of the emotional states of the other people in the room

    ???
    Other people's emotional state is like pollution to me, I am aware of it yet I am not, like unconsciously aware. Not sure which to pick, as I cannot tell the emotion, it's just a general negative or possitive impression.

    11. view it as abstractly bad when another person is very unhappy and want to help, but experience essentially no emotion about it
    vs.
    those who viscerally experience pain when they see (or even hear of) someone else who is very unhappy, and can’t imagine what it would be like to not feel compelled to help


    People's emotional state distress me badly, even though I don't understand it well.

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