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Thread: Inability to Relax

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    Default Inability to Relax

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    Last edited by FarDraft; 11-10-2018 at 09:41 PM.

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    fka Avebury
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    I think it sounds related to high neuroticism in the big five - not necessarily socionics related though.


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    fka Avebury
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    Neuroticism/emotional stability, according to Victor Gulenko, is the only big five dichotomy not taken into account by socionics.

    From the interview with Victor Gulneko: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...and-Transcript

    3. How does The Big 5 relate to neuroticism index?

    The basic scale of The Big 5 can relate to socionics, as there are a lot of similiarities. The first factor is extroversion, which correlates to socionics extroversion. It is the first noticeable, "on the surface" trait. The second factor is openness, which is when a person is open to new things, which correlates to socionics intuition. The third factor is conscientiousness, which relates to socionics rationality. The fourth factor is agreeableness, which means that you will agree with society's standards, which correlates with socionics ethics, especially ethics of relationships, which is introverted feeling. The last factor is emotional stability, which was discovered later. It doesn't relate to Aushra or Jung's dichotomies, but Gulenko discovered that it could relate to a DCNH subtype dichotomy called terminality. It is is about how well you adapt emotionally, and see your goals through to the end without being swayed emotionally.

    So if anything, high levels of neuroticism correlates to what Gulenko called initiality, his original subtype system being terminal vs initial. The dichotomy later became a part of his DCNH subtye theory, which came later and was a mish mash of several ideas including terminal vs initial subtypes.


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    Youre probably type 6 then

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    try to be more tired

    if seriously
    the anxiety prevents you to feel relaxed. it's common problem with emotional issues

    for LII to reduce neurotization you need more Fe and Si stimulation
    besides dealing with ESE and other good IR people, you may get amateur drama courses. for Si mb yoga may help, better meal and cooking, aestetic art practices. get stimulatation and develop in superid regions and Socionics magic will touch you

    try a meditation alike with that. imagine yourself in any pleasant environment in any time and place, with anything or anyone near. let your mind to distract and to rest
    Last edited by Sol; 10-21-2018 at 02:32 AM.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    If its not Si related then its spiritual unfinished business and historically that is a EIE problem.

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    reichandlowentherapy.org

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    I agree with neuroticism, but it seems like there's some conscientiousness in there as well. I experience a lot of what's in the first post, too, except for the individual nature (I mean something closer to the expression of the results of the psyche, but it doesn't matter, because someone's base nature is not really important in most situations) not changing. It does change. It just takes a lot of investment and time.

    I also don't experience the lack of resilience, unless things are really challenging.

    I don't think most of this is a problem, it's one of those things where if you give it enough time it will just give you an interesting perspective. Plus it might just be a legit reaction to the knowledge floating around.

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    EJ temperament.

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    There exists a self-hypnotic learning program you can find on the internet for sale that is an immense value and very effective. It is called Relieve Stress & Anxiety by Dr. David Illig. You can get it on CD or perhaps mp3. His company is called Success World. Stress comes from not feeling safe for any countless number of reasons. This program really helps. Then your philosophical musings might find more positive outlets than feeling stressed out. I hope you find a satisfactory solution you go with and best of luck.
    astralsilky

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    spiritual aggressor/volcel Troll Nr 007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    Neuroticism/emotional stability, according to Victor Gulenko, is the only big five dichotomy not taken into account by socionics.

    From the interview with Victor Gulneko: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...and-Transcript



    So if anything, high levels of neuroticism correlates to what Gulenko called initiality, his original subtype system being terminal vs initial. The dichotomy later became a part of his DCNH subtye theory, which came later and was a mish mash of several ideas including terminal vs initial subtypes.

    https://youtu.be/fihTStryu50

    Low Neuroticism: a person who has very little internal movement and looks flat internally. This could be very well be D and N It is just I don't really see it as negative. It gives some edge to life.
    You can suggest an alternative type based on video found in HERE

    extrospection > introspection



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    You're a type 5 IP. Your inability to relax most likely comes from some source of environmental stress that hasn't gone away and which you haven't learned how to cope with. When you can't relax automatically, you can learn how to do it manually. You just have to put effort into it. Learn what thoughts make you anxious, if any, and counter them. Learn how to control your breathing so that you breathe from the belly rather than from the diaphragm or chest. Learn how to tense and relax your muscles to get rid of muscular tension. Christopher Hyatt's Undoing Yourself with Energized Meditation is a pretty good book for the practical methods he provides. Check it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I considered that for a while when researching enneagram, but I came to the conclusion that simply being anxious and having the surface-level categorizations of a 6 wasn't enough for me to type myself as such. My core fear, desire, and motivations align much more closely with 5, but I do have the stereotypical 6-ish behavioural temperament; thus, I settled on 5 with a strong 6 wing since I think that the wing contributes quite a bit to temperament as well as diverts the core fear into something more specialized. For example, a 5 desires knowledge to prevent incompetence to be able to survive the outside world; with a 6 wing, they would seek factual evidence and confirming theories on top of their own ideas and with a 4 wing they would seek validation and personal "harmony" through their ideas.

    I think I said I had balanced wings on some other post in this forum - I misspoke there. I'm not too focused on personal identity like a 4 would be.
    Your whole story screams 6 tho, not just anxiety
    - fear of instability
    - fearing the worst
    - not trusting knowledge (basically not trusting your own mind and second guessing everything)(this is a big difference with 5 because 5 believes knowledge is power and thus seek indefinitely)
    - restlessness caused by feeling of impending doom and danger
    - prepararation, preparing for the worst, seeing the worst case scenario so u can prepare for the danger (this all has fear as an underlying trait)
    - "lack of resilience without external support" - core issue and basic fear of 6 (to be without support)
    - meaninglessness because of inability to trust
    - general paranoia
    - guilt (type 6 is a superego type, they have a lot of responsibility and act a lot because they feel they >should< do it. 5 does not have this
    Basically fear seems to be your main problem, which fits 6.
    Avarice is the main problem of 5 which i havent seen u talked about, everything else is explanatory

    https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/m...fying-5-and-6/

    https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-6

    https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-5

    Also i wonder what @ashlesha thinks of this list since she seems to be the only one on the forum who selftypes as 6
    Last edited by Number 9 large; 10-21-2018 at 11:52 AM.

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    fka lungs ashlesha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Also i wonder what @ashlesha thinks of this list since she seems to be the only one on the forum who selftypes as 6
    I relate to most of it to various degrees with varying consistency throughout my life. I also score highest in neuroticism and conscientiousness.
    Last edited by ashlesha; 10-21-2018 at 03:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I was thinking this, and it's one of the reasons why I still consider LIE as a possibility despite many, especially @Sol, narrowing me down to LII.
    It's not only by my typing and of others. But also by MBTI and your result in IR test, which fits to LII much better than to LIE.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    It's not that I don't see my goals to the end. In fact, part of the problem is that I can't quit since I feel terrible when I do so. I have high standards for myself and thus don't allow myself to stop persevering even when I'm being swayed emotionally. It's the resilience that is harder - the feeling of getting back on my feet.

    EDIT: It is true that I am high in neuroticism and conscientiousness in Big 5 though. My stacking has consistently gone as follows, openness >= conscientiousness ~ neuroticism > extroversion > agreeableness.
    Yeah, I identify with the high conscientiousness parts of what you're talking about too - the need to finish things, guilt at not doing enough etc, but I'm the opposite in neuroticism, being very low instead of high, so I don't have those anxious feelings or negative outlook on things. I wonder . . . if negativist IJs are more prone to this than positivist IJs, because it is often a type 6 trait and ESIs are very often 6s. Just a half-thought. I unfortunately don't have any good advice for you.

    BUT, seeing as you're also high in both openness and conscientiousness like me you might be interested in another trait, one that I found exciting because it described me so well, maybe you would be interested too. It's called "need for cognition" and I was going to write a bit about it sometime, but it comes from being high in both openness and conscientiousness. =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Why do you suggest IP? I agree with type 5 (albeit with a strong 6 wing) but I'm far too planned to be an IP, no?
    Planning and IP don't necessarily disagree. Look at the farsighted/carefree Reinin dichotomy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I haven't looked too thoroughly into the Reinin dichotomies since I've been told that they are generally invalid and unreliable testing methods. I have been focusing on other systems prior to relying on that.

    Isn't the entire p/j divide in socionics about planning vs. not planning or structure vs. not structure? If so, then wouldn't having a "planning" p type undermine one of the central dichotomies in the system?
    Ok, here's one of the major truths about Socionics and typology in general most people never get: it's really abstract. People concretize it because they can't handle the abstraction. That's where stereotypes in typology come from. Check out Reinin dichotomies. They're actually pretty telling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Type 6 is something I have seriously considered but ultimately rejected because I don't align with its core fear or desire. General traits and some core aspects, yes; but I ultimately think that 5 (with a very strong 6 wing) is a better fit.

    Interestingly, I haven't found many sources of information for people who are high in both conscientiousness and openness, so your "need for cognition" idea is promising.
    My excitement re. the trait was sparked again and I started looking things up, and found that while there is a positive correlation (between need for cognitions and both) openness and conscientiousness, there is a negative correlation with (need for cognition and) neuroticism, so I'm not sure what that would mean for you, if you'd find as much to relate in it that I did. But, look it up and see what you think =)


    **Editing this for clarity. Edits are in the parentheses.
    Last edited by squark; 10-21-2018 at 05:31 PM. Reason: Clarity

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    If there was one correlation in big 5 that I wouldn't have expected, it would be the positive correlation between openness and conscientiousness. I can't see people who are more open to new ideas and thoughts generally being the types to follow through on their ideas and have a strong work ethic; it's why I think NJs in MBTI are the rarest types on average. Are you sure your source is correct?

    The neuroticism correlation makes some sense though. I can see the argument either way: increasing openness implies seeing more possibilities implies higher chance of seeing good ones, leading to a positive outlook; increasing openness implies seeing more possibilities implies higher chance of seeing bad ones, leading to a negative outlook. I think it depends more on biological, temperamental, and environmental factors for this one.

    I'll look up the trait, thanks.
    I meant that the trait "need for cognition" was positively correlated with both openness and with conscientiousness. Not that those two traits were correlated to one another. And that need for cognition and neuroticism were negatively correlated.

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    I was going to ask if you are depressed, but it's hard to imagine someone being in low spirits most of their life, although not unheard of. It could be that you are surrounded by negative energy or lack of prospects. It's a normal feeling. You just have to trust that you are going to make it at the end of the day.

    I understand how to manage time properly, and I have a history of it working in favour of me.
    This is literally the only thing I know for sure in life about myself. Given time, I'll always come out ahead no matter the circumstances. I will wait years if I have to, it matters not. The passage of time doesn't bother me. I dropped out of college at one point to pursue my career. It wasn't a smart move. I worked in a low paying job. But I had no other option. I could have cursed my luck but what good would that do you? A year passed and I ended up in a high paying six-figure job by accident, and without a college degree. I worked hard to prove myself, but I never envisioned it. My dumb ass wouldn't be here if I just relied on my intuition to bail me out.

    Yes, you are not going to feel secure. But if you keep that mindset you will find yourself surrounded by opportunities you never dreamt off. People do recognise greatness but no one will drag you up. You will have to work really hard to be truly successful.

    Good luck to you. I hope you find what you are looking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I'm in no way against abstraction. But if the abstraction is useless, then I'll be critical, especially when it's not consistent with the rest of the theory. I haven't yet concluded whether or not the abstraction in socionics is fruitful; hence, I'm still open-minded to the idea that it is.

    For an abstract system to be consistent, it must be developed from a firm set of concrete principles - axioms, if you will. These axioms, too, may be abstractly written - like in mathematics, for example - but regardless of what they are, they can be logically connected to create an abstract theory. Thus, concretizing things isn't necessarily a bad thing, so long as people are willing to connect their principles in meaningful ways to develop truth.
    You won't like Socionics much. It's beyond language and semantics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Hi, everyone:

    For my entire life, I have been unable to relax. It's strange really, because with respect to my peers I should be the most relaxed since I'm the one who does the most preparation. I understand how to manage time properly, and I have a history of it working in favour of me. Yet, I'm still stressed everyday, not because it feels like there's not enough time but for some other unknown reason. I'm starting to think it could just be temperamentally based.

    Here's a general description of what it's like: a general restlessness - need to be doing something, anything, to not feel guilty; vigorous gait; a general feeling of unrest and instability; a competitive regard to other people with respect to the ratios between competence and time spent; a fear that things will end badly despite historical success; a feeling that nothing will get better - that improvement is impossible and that an individual's base nature is stagnant; a feeling that true enlightenment is impossible - everything that is learned is useless and no discussion ever progresses due to the subjective nature of the information anyways; an inability to stop thinking about the future; a lack of resilience without external support; a general meaninglessness of all the actions that one commits - especially harmful given that I feel guilty when not doing something; general paranoia that we aren't doing enough to succeed in the future.

    Is this type related somehow? I don't think it's severe enough to be considered a disorder or anything, so I won't go that far, but any ideas and suggestions are appreciated.

    ---- FarDraft
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    its a work before play mind-set, I have the same thing.

    it's what makes you unique, don't be ashamed about it
    If you can't get a miracle, become one

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    I am accused of not being relaxed. My limbs are naturally very rigid. If someone were to hit my forearm while I was standing, my arm would move very little, if at all. My shoulders act like welded beam supports unless I am consciously moving my arms. I am unsure if it is a reflexive stiffening or if they are just naturally in a taut position. I am also accused of walking "like a robot", dancing "rigidly", and not moving my arms "normally" while I walk. It is just the strangest thing to me, and it isn't something I pay attention to unless someone points it out to me. My SO will insist that I "relax!", yet the only response I can think of is "how?".

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Hi, everyone:

    For my entire life, I have been unable to relax. It's strange really, because with respect to my peers I should be the most relaxed since I'm the one who does the most preparation. I understand how to manage time properly, and I have a history of it working in favour of me. Yet, I'm still stressed everyday, not because it feels like there's not enough time but for some other unknown reason. I'm starting to think it could just be temperamentally based.

    Here's a general description of what it's like: a general restlessness - need to be doing something, anything, to not feel guilty; vigorous gait; a general feeling of unrest and instability; a competitive regard to other people with respect to the ratios between competence and time spent; a fear that things will end badly despite historical success; a feeling that nothing will get better - that improvement is impossible and that an individual's base nature is stagnant; a feeling that true enlightenment is impossible - everything that is learned is useless and no discussion ever progresses due to the subjective nature of the information anyways; an inability to stop thinking about the future; a lack of resilience without external support; a general meaninglessness of all the actions that one commits - especially harmful given that I feel guilty when not doing something; general paranoia that we aren't doing enough to succeed in the future.

    Is this type related somehow? I don't think it's severe enough to be considered a disorder or anything, so I won't go that far, but any ideas and suggestions are appreciated.

    ---- FarDraft
    The way you describe it, is all over self-help books. If I were to reduce it to a single term, it would be "low self-esteem". It is not Socionics related, however, Socionics can be part of the solution. Basically you're trying to live your life in accordance with external expectations (or externally defined expectations), and you need to learn to get rid of your focus on these external expectations and shift focus to your own internal expectations. Learn to identify what it really is you want, and act in accordance with that, meanwhile saying "fuck it" to external expectations.

    Problem is, it is not all that easy to shift that focus. This lack of self esteem might be caused by something simple such as improper social programming to a more complicated patterns ingrained by serious psychological issues. Only you yourself can tell.

    Perhaps this could be a good starting point to get things triggered:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_disintegration
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Spiritually unfinished business:

    Tasks for which somewhere along the way your psyche decided it needed to complete, to reach completion, before it would let you go. Also known as a Macguffin in film and literature.

    In fiction, a MacGuffin is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or another motivator that the protagonist pursues, often with little or no narrative explanation. The MacGuffin's importance to the plot is not the object itself, but rather its effect on the characters and their motivations. The most common type of MacGuffin is a person, place, or thing.

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