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Last edited by FarDraft; 12-15-2018 at 11:47 PM.
"Prediction" is maybe not the best word to describe what Ni does.
What Ni does (and also Ne) more generally is aid in the imagination of scenarios or worlds that aren't present or currently existent - including ones that are fictional.
Intuition is also involved in imagining what the future is going to be like or may be like at a very general level, or what consequences could result from a possible action. Like, if you run out into traffic you're probably gonna die.
When you talk about "verifying with hard data" or using concrete analysis beyond the simple visualization it's going to involve some logic as well.
intuition is about _irrational_ feeling, impression, idea, image, etc
also about imagination and abstract thinking
the function is described at Jung. MBTI texts should be about the same, but you'd better read Jung
> would it be more conceptual?
It's possibly to get the intuitive answers on any questions. Behind those questions mb some conceptions. Behind an interpretation also, like in guessing cards. It's possibly to match N with other functions, including T.
Last edited by Sol; 10-18-2018 at 09:46 PM.
Ni is perceiving the fluidity of time, playing with conceptual options, and enables deductive rationality. If it is employed in making predictions, I think those who have this in their ego block are going about it in a deductively rational way in the midst of options.
As my Role function with Te as my POLR, I have a really hard time accurately assessing the passage of time. An hour can feel like 5 minutes or vice versa depending on what I am doing. Punctuality is thus one of my weaknesses. I could show up an hour early or late depending on the circumstances. It is very frustrating.
I have been good at predicting trends, events, probable outcomes and future inventions. This predictive ability is based on other factors rather than Ni.
An example of Ni well applied is being good at the board game Clue, or perhaps enjoying the debugging process of a computer program (the latter for Te dominants).
In esoteric studies, Ni corresponds to Gemini and Mercury and the 3rd House in Astrology per me.
~* astralsilky
Each essence is a separate glass,
Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
A thousand colors, but the Light is One.
Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet
Post types & fully individuated before 2012 ...
I'd call Ni the element of imagery, symbolism and self fulfilling prophecies more than predictions. I think they live more in past and future and alternate realities than in present. They are very good at thinking in possible negative scenarios which makes them freeze in time and consequently make reality their fears. That's why they need Se, a strong mobilizer, conqueror, drive.
Ne is intuition of potential or possibilities.
Ti is structural logic.
It's not a logical standard though. The other element Ni is blocked with is Fe. You can have an instinctive, emotional apprehension (fear) that something is going to go wrong if you do X.That's very similar to the MBTI description, yet I never understood it since being convergent necessarily requires you to rule out some possibilities based on some standard. You could say a subconscious logical standard based around common sense and personal experience. I know that running into traffic will not allow me to fly since I've never had an experience like that nor do any physical principles support this idea. But I don't consciously think of this when I choose not to run into traffic. Simple example, yes, but it would seem as though intuition is just fast thinking that is unable to be quantified in the time it occurs. Similarly, when coming up with possibilities, I could perhaps go backwards, trying to understand the factors that led me to make such a decision, but I'm not likely to be correct because the synthesis of those factors would be so rapid so as to be out of my grasp to comprehend each individual effect.
But I could be totally off the mark here.
Yes, that's one big difference: Ni is about what "will" happen (or is extremely likely to happen), Ne is about what "could" happen.Originally Posted by FarDraft
Ni also tends to be more negative in its outlook. For example with new technologies/paradigms you'll often find Ni valuing types that react quite strongly to the negative side effects for society, and Ne valuing types who hype it up based on its perceived potential rather than what is actually proven and existent. Types with contact intuition will be more in the middle.
You can't actually "predict" anything, no one can. The only way to "predict" something is when something stays the same, then it's a no brainer. So how do you "predict" the trajectory of a cannon ball for a example, using physics? That's only possible, because there are certain laws in this universe that (supposedly) stay the same over time and space.
I think you ask a good question when you say, well what's the difference between Ni and Ne, then? Well nobody knows, this is all just vague and mystical nonsense that says maybe it's some imagination, maybe it's some fantasizing, maybe it's vaguely connected to the concept of time, maybe it's about connecting some ideas, that all work in mystical ways that no one can actually explain. It all depends. Maybe this, maybe that.
Or maybe it's all just a bunch of nonsense.
I don't make predictions. Do or do not, there is no try. Does this put me in Delta Quadra? Seriously, I don't think the future exists the way the past exists. Look up McTaggart's phenomenology of time. But I disagree that time is space. Time is just the relationship between facts and feelings. If you have a moment of pure bliss, anything else can be manipulated. Otherwise, you're screwed. But, you kind of get to decide that too.
I've never directed my Ni. Those questions you asked, none of that is an action. The direction is automatic. It's memory recall, even when it's focused on the future.
Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.
Yep.
Ni are a pair of lead shoes, which slows everything down. You can wade in the shallow end of the sea of consciousness, but don't try to go in too deep, or you will drown. On the beach, through the sand, and through life, everything is slowed. The sea: It beckons you.
It is all just a degree of how much one is weighed by the conscious and unconscious and associations that arise. You have to stand still and close your eyes long enough to be able to see.
I've never met an IEI more comfortable at the shallow end than the deep end.
Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.
Go deep enough, up to the neck, so you can sit beneath the waters, but still come up for air. Too much deeper is madness.
N-types have an edge on predicting how events will unfold because they tend to look at the relationships among facts more than the facts themselves, thus are better attuned to subtle implications of interaction and consequence. Te-types tend to pay more attention to their input in real-time so are better tacticians but Ti-types make the better strategists because they tend to have a broader focus. N-types have a very small edge due to natural first inclinations when acquiring data; but note that S-types can also predict, and can have intuition in the dictionary sense of the word.
a.k.a. I/O
Well that's kind of the entire problem with Socionics. I can say that "I have observed that such and such types have made a prediction", but I don't actually know if they've actually made a (successful) prediction or not, or in short, it's just my opinion that I think they have made a prediction.
No offense taken. I am not sure if there are answers to your questions; I probably do not have them. Jungian typology is as much about Becoming as it about Being and Identity. These are question I think socionics cannot answer, but it does give us exploratory tools for our self understanding. I have a difficult time accepting rigid definitions and categories for typology philosophy. There doesn't ever seem to be one agreed upon definition devoid of vagueness, which is what I kind of like about it. Metaphors, like language have limits and should be discussed. There is so much more to be understood.
Yes, its like that. At least thats how it looks since my persective. I think victim style comes from Ni for that very reason. Present problems are set aside because of that future vision and disrgarded at first and then when they make impossible to reach the goal the subject see it as a calamity and see themselves as surpassed by those problems and circumstances creating a feeling of impotence.
Nothing that I write is directly related to Jung or any Socionics model even though some of what I express may seem to correlate. I see Te as the rationalization aspect of a specific information processing configuration. The only differentiation between Te and Ti is configuration. The assumption that T or F-processing directly collects data from the environment would be faulty from my perspective; S and N represent data input - especially, it's filters.
a.k.a. I/O
I don't think it's a language game. I think the future exists and the past exists, but the future and the past don't cover the same aspects of existence because they're phenomenological and "true" existence is only in the present (which contains the past, the future, and all other objects and ideas.) I don't consider relativity to have anything approaching the final authority on time, since it's a correct theory, but not complete/the "Theory of Everything." (I think we've already known the "Theory of Everything" for over 2000 years but that's another issue.)
Ifdominant types were especially good at predictions, they'd all be stock investors and millionaires.
Supposing everyone is a rational actor...If
I wouldn't be using Ni to predict tomorrow's market.
If I did, then yes, I wouldn't need to do any of those things. Ni doesn't do that. I don't think it even can.
I would be using mainly Te, and maybe Ni would come into play by fostering insight into how the system maintenance or derails ongoing trends. But that wouldn't take any analysis really. It's evident phenomena.
Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.
O gosh, more questions in here I know answers to than I currently have time to answer. I will post a bit about all function definitions where appropriate ... Hopefully in about 8 hours or so if I can. I will post my own findings after reading Carl Jung's writings on them about 20 years ago, and trying to come to terms with others misinterpretations or false paradoxes since. I have correlated these functions to other systems too which I hope many will find helpful. One is esoteric and the other is biological. It wasn't until 2012 I had definitions refined after thought and experiments for a few years.
~* astralsilky
Each essence is a separate glass,
Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
A thousand colors, but the Light is One.
Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet
Post types & fully individuated before 2012 ...
Philosophical formal logic (Ti) and Deductive Reasoning (facilitated in a perceiving way by Ni by managing a set awareness) are different abilities.
Advanced mathematics need not require ego dominance for acquisition and success. I studied math up through Diff Eq and Complex Variables long ago with highest marks.
Time and Space are elastic or fixed reciprocally. Special Relativity has revealed that model as analogous to how the human mind conceptualized experience and encodes the science so far.
I think to associate imagination with Ni exclusively is unfair and inaccurate. Any type can be imaginative with functions.
An example of being in an Ni Te frame of mind is feeling meditative and calm, and observing water coming through a faucet watching the detailed and almost hypnotizing wave patterns while then starting to ask questions as to why the structure behaves in that way ... And theoretically dissecting the problem with theories about function. Or it could be scanning a big pile of laundry in your room, haphazardly observing all the visual nuances of line form shadow texture color in a parallax sort of ongoing way, and wondering what you are going to do with it all if anything.
Ne is esoterically correspondent to Pisces Jupiter and the 12 House per me. Whereas Ni is an active fluid state of mind that facilitates activity like meditation, Ne is a conceptual image that represents the overall goal. Ni is in process, Ne is final. When you asked about memories, Si is about past recollection of events the most. Speaking of which ... I wish you'd change your profile pic to something more pleasant but alas, it is not mine it is your choice.
~* astralsilky
Each essence is a separate glass,
Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
A thousand colors, but the Light is One.
Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet
Post types & fully individuated before 2012 ...
From start to finish consciousness is the same in you as in me. So that covers the telepathy.
As far as time goes why can't it be remembering the future instead of predicting it? Not as crazy as it sounds imo especially when coincidence reveal their true nature.
PS this probably is not ti or Ni.
Do you leave your house daily?
Sounds like objectivity and being smart tbh. As long as you don't get to much hung up on the imagination and resist the movement-action.
Yes, I think the present contains the past and the future in a pretty strict sense because of philosophical idealism. If everything that happens happens in Spirit or Mind, which I think is clear for reasons that would take another post in themselves, and Spirit or Mind is experienced as taking actions such as "thinking" and "doing" in the present, phenomenologically, the present is actually the combination of the future and the past. In the present, you experience yourself as observing and taking action, while in the past you only experience yourself observing and in the future you only experience yourself taking action.
And I meant Euclid's Elements. The Bible isn't really a theory. All the new physics theories are just mathematics and all mathematics is derivable from the Elements.
Ni does (in)accurate inductive logical leaps based on previous knowledge or experience that frames a current stimuli in a manner not readily apparent to observers.
Example - I have plentiful boxing experience. I can ask a few questions about fighting, and i can tell exactly how comfortable someone is with confrontation and how effective they would be in an altercation regardless of whether they're telling the truth. I have enough experience that I can connect to where I would need to be to say the same thing as them.
Ni has really good memory recall, so there are often times people will say something a certain way, and Ni will pick up on the motivations behind it, because they remember something that narrows the scope to a certainty.
Last edited by Pookie; 10-19-2018 at 02:56 AM.
Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.
I don't really subscribe to Jung's theories on this stuff, his understanding is confused IMO.
But the idea of archetypes and the hidden aspect of the mind is certainly related to Ni.
Negative outlook -Ni? Roughly, yes.Isn't negative outlook Ni- (here's what will go wrong) but positive outlook Ni+ (here's what we'll accomplish)?
But no, I wouldn't say that positive outlook is +Ni, more like +Ne which is more like a "true opposite" of -Ni.
It seems rather different to me, because I believe I use Ni to model from the present into the future and try to make changes now that will prevent problems later, as well as plant seeds now that will bloom later.
I think the weakness is more that Ni needs support sometimes in practical implementation, and only some people are responsive to intuitive information. And frankly in highly evidence-based and red-tape-laden modern cultures there are a lot of people who put no stock in Ni, as they are unconvinced by anything but hard and fast evidence and also figure they’ll just make things up as they go along. In this case having strong Ni means being able to see what’s coming but being unable to do anything about it because you literally don’t have enough power to stop individuals or groups of people from continuing on a collision course.
It’s the Cassandra syndrome. And that does create a victimy mood for sure.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
@golden yes that seems accurate. However, I dont think Ni types are unable to do anything or not having enough power (but I know they feel this way), thats why I get exasperated by them sometimes. Its like simply they disregard or don't see what actually they can do or must do to change the situation.
They really need an aggressor (Se) to force them pass through difficult situations ( overcome fear, discouragement, etc) and to get them to the future they want, otherwise they seem stuck often.
In my own case I might be able to see a clear picture of how something will or can turn out but not be sure how to get there, as the amount of data pouring across my mind is overwhelming. I usually can spin out multiple scenarios in my head at the same time, and I like to have help selecting one.
It’s not helpful to have someone be exasperated by it. It is nice to talk to someone who has an orderly mind and who will be good at assessing the points at which effort will be most effective.
Personally I don’t feel forced by Beta STs, but I find many of them reassuring as they are able to take a lot of my observstions seriously and pick out what matters.
Maybe I’m unique in not thinking that Se simply forces Ni to do things, but I don’t. The idea that someone should be forced sounds tbh like how Deltas see Ni because they understandably don’t know what to do with a large amount of strong Ni, and the message becomes “Get over yourself.”
It does sound like you’re providing a good description of the communication gap between Beta and Delta.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
For one thing, he sees archetypes as totally subjective and psychological. This is related to how his understanding of the functions was incomplete.
Maybe you should just put your video back up so I can look at it (or PM it)That's what I've heard, yes. How would demonstrative Ni differ from base Ni in this regard? I'm still uncertain as to whether I am an ILI or LII (or perhaps LSI or LIE), and I've noticed that I relate to many aspects of Ni as explained on this thread, which would either be base or demonstrative when strictly speaking about those two types.
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