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Thread: What would an LII with strong Ne subtype look like?

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    Deleted.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 12-16-2018 at 12:43 AM.

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    Here is the Ne-subtype descrption by Meged and Ovcharov and Gulenko:

    Intuitive Subtype Ne-INTj (Ne-LII)

    Appearance
    The intuitive subtype appears soft even a bit diffident in communication. In conversation, he is restrained, attentive, attempts to come into good favor of his partner by giving advice and impressing him or her with his knowledge and conclusions. In such cases, his serious demeanor and gaze soften, goodwill permeates his voice. Not always absolute and categorical in his statements, but obstinate and uncompromising in his actions. May keep silent and refrain from the discussion, but won't change his opinion. His usually imperceptible emotions become visible during moments of extreme nervous pressure within intonations of his voice and impulsive gestures. Gait is calm and synchronous. Pose appears a bit restrained, especially in the shoulders which may be stooped. His movements are somewhat unsure and dilatory. Gestures are stingy and constrained, occasionally unconsciously impulsive and poorly coordinated.

    Character

    Likes to analyze various phenomena and processes. Inclined towards anything that is new and unusual, especially if it falls into the sphere of his interests. Often has a rich imagination and tries to introduce elements of creativity into his work. Has a good feel for the prospects of new ideas and initiatives. Willingly develops and works out new ideas for practical application. Able to analyze specific topics in great depth, but also shows an interest in the adjacent fields. Stable in his work performance, but quickly grows tired of routine and is in need of fresh impressions and changes.
    Excitable in disputes; can inspire others with some idea. Becomes uncompromising in debates when his principles are concerned, but tries to develop in himself tolerance for other people's weaknesses and for differing points of view. Usually knows how to hear out his conversation partner and to encourage his initiative in useful direction. Evaluates abilities of others and finds them a proper application. May be a good speaker and lecturer capable of briefly and clearly conveying the material to his listeners.
    Reserved, amiable to an extent, polite, and even-tempered, but rarely becomes very close with anyone, for he easily tires of social interaction. If he is interested in a person, he is able to come into his or her good favor by establishing intellectual contact and intriguing with ideas and new suggestions. Quite private, does not like discussing his personal life and does not allow his feelings to take precedence over the interests of business or personal principles. Although in relation with others he is reserved and distrustful, he is inclined to reciprocate the feelings of another person and show attention to his or her problems. Seeks support in active, lively, and strong-spirited people, who know how to encourage and provide help in business matters. Needs an emotional, optimistically oriented partner who would know how to raise his vitality. But at the slightest infringement of his independence, he retreats into himself, stubbornly defending his principles up to a break up of relations. Allows himself to get directed only by those who can persuade gently and not too aggressively.
    Enemy of the administrative pressuring and control; considers it obstructive to the development of a person's potential. Convinced that the main thing in work is not sense of duty but interest in the project. Strives for independence. However, at the same time he is usually disciplined, punctual, and conscientious. Makes up his plans himself and follows them exactly. Usually does not run late to events but makes it in the allotted time.
    Sometimes he is too categorical in his judgments and intolerant of different points of view. He will not dramatically change his beliefs, conclusions, habits and orientations under the influence of new facts and circumstances. He reviews and changes his former views with much difficulty and sometimes exhibits senseless obstinacy. Due to high self-esteem and a developed sense of dignity, it can be difficult for him to admit to being wrong. All of this does not make him the easiest partner to deal with and creates plenty of interpersonal problems in his life. Internally, he may acutely experience his disappointments, but tries to avoid quarrels out of fear of losing control and losing respect of others. Skeptical and distrustful, but does not show this. Restrained in the expression of his feelings, but when he is in a good mood can liven up the conversation with his humor.
    Yielding and compliant in matters of everyday life. If he cannot completely avoid household chores and other mundane tasks, he will try to postpone them. Dislikes bureaucracy, having to petition various departments and to prepare documents. Shows inertness in such matters even if he sees that his project is suffering. Tries to rely on the help of others in such cases. Does not always take care of his health, but understands its importance. In treatment of illness lacks in consistency and follow-through. Tries to keep up with latest tastes and prevailing styles, to have a presentable appearance.

    Description by Viktor Gulenko
    Analyst, good researcher and conceptualizer. Gives his attention to problems of general nature. Generator of options and ideas. Places more importance on future potential achievements rather than results of the current moment. Smooth, polite, careful in social interaction. Outwardly often seems asthenic, pays attention to his outward appearance and to his health.

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    Raising my hand... I think this description applies to me... mostly.

    My take on this is that the Ne-subtype has a wider variety of interests, and is more of a mixture between LII and ILE; compared to LII no subtype or Ti-LII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Raising my hand... I think this description applies to me.
    I think this description potentially applies fairly well to @FarDraft too - at least according to the impression I’ve personally formed of him.

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    LII has strong Ne "as is". If has it as more accented than average - then he may look as slightly more extraverted and lesser rational than average LII.

    Do not mess with "subtypes" - types inner accentuations. There is no good theory for practical usefulness of this. Also you may meet different bs in different "subtypes" hypotheses.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    LII has strong Ne "as is". If has it as more accented than average - then he may look as slightly more extraverted and lesser rational than average LII.
    Yes, but Ne is a function with a focus on the connections between different objects in the world around us.
    It can redefine the purpose of objects and seeing new ways how to arrange and combine them. It can spot similarities in objects or events perceived differently with the five human senses.
    It's the awareness that many different views of the world exists – the reason for why Ne-ego type can appear absent minded to other people, I guess.
    ...and -ego likes to play (or confront other people) with different perspectives...

    is an extroverted function, but isn't necessarily people oriented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Do not mess with "subtypes" - types inner accentuations. There is no good theory for practical usefulness of this. Also you may meet different bs in different "subtypes" hypotheses.
    I guess the reason for subtypes is to explain the finer differences perceived in people from the same type.

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    - ego and - ego should be discriminable.

    Ego blocks and Id blocks are swapped for alpha and gamma NT types.

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    In outward appearance, it's splitting hairs when compared with Ti-sub-types. Over time one notices that they seem to spend more time taking it all in - dwelling on things; they don't seem quite as productive or as communicative as a Ti-sub. They do seem to have more of outward gaze in a non-animated sort of way and this could perhaps be mistaken for engagement but if they are indeed more observant, the results don't often show. Their don't-give-a-shit level seems much higher but this certainly doesn't make them a nonchalant sub-type.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Yes, but Ne is a function with a focus on the connections between different objects in the world around us.
    .
    No, it is not. It's not about connections (that would be introverted elements), it's not a function (a function is a spot in which an element resides in the psyche, not the element itself, though MBTI does use fxn in that way), and it's not about "the world around us" (that would be external elements, Ne is internal.)

    Ne is better described in terms of options and alternatives, seeing beyond or instead of the world around you. It's all the other things that something could be instead of the direct reality of the present. =)


    edit for example: instead of seeing an object, say a stick laying on the ground, you see all the things that object could do and be - it's a sword, a bridge for small creatures, a magic wand and many other things. (And yes, this is a silly example but it's merely for illustration purposes)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Yeah, but I'm having a tough time discriminating nonetheless. I think I'm ultimately NiSe valuing, but there is VI and IR evidence pointing towards LII, and many of my responses show Ti valuing. I also think I use far more Te in real life than I do on this forum since this is forum highly theoretical without much hard evidence. I'm leaning towards ILI for the strong and prevalent use of Ni, Te, and Ti, but that ignores Ne, which is a problem since my responses also show strong Ne.
    Ignoring function might be a wrong choice of name.
    The ignoring function has still 3 dimensions and is not that weak, but for ILI is an unconscious function.

    It's more like being good at using that function without knowing or realizing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    No, it is not. It's not about connections (that would be introverted elements), it's not a function (a function is a spot in which an element resides in the psyche, not the element itself, though MBTI does use fxn in that way), and it's not about "the world around us" (that would be external elements, Ne is internal.)
    Ok, probably I've described not in pure form, and described it in form mixed together with a judgement function.
    ...but I'm under the impression that you simply quoted the description written in some book, rather than your own expierence of .
    Is an ego function of you? Because if not, you don't perceive what it's about and in which ways it manifests.
    You rely on descriptions written by other people to describe it.

    ...but I'm using my judgement function to write my own description.

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Ne is better described in terms of options and alternatives, seeing beyond or instead of the world around you. It's all the other things that something could be instead of the direct reality of the present. =)
    Yeah, I know, but sometimes I'm not skilled to write a description in such an elegant way.

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    edit for example: instead of seeing an object, say a stick laying on the ground, you see all the things that object could do and be - it's a sword, a bridge for small creatures, a magic wand and many other things. (And yes, this is a silly example but it's merely for illustration purposes)
    The alternative purpose of objects, yes, this is part of

    ...and I forgot to post the link to a video about Ne
    Last edited by WinnieW; 10-09-2018 at 06:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Ok, probably I've described not in pure form, and decribed it in form mixed together with a judgement function.
    ...but I'm under the impression that you simply quoted the description written in some book, rather than your own expierence of .
    Is an ego function of you? Because if not, you don't perceive what it's about and in which ways it manifests.
    You rely on descriptions written by other people to describe it.
    I've spent many hours discussing all of the elements and what each means with @anndelise over the years, an IEE who of course has direct experience with Ne. My understanding is not from some book, but rather from comparison with other elements, separating and analyzing definitions and applications, breaking them down into their simplest forms to distinguish each of them. And using real life examples to get at how they work. It's the one thing in socionics that I've actually spent a lot of time with (and I've been here for 12 years) so I know the elements, what they are, how they are different from each other, and where they are similar. That doesn't mean that there isn't more I can learn, additional information that can be added, but my understanding is solid.

    The "it's in my ego so listen to me" argument has validity IFF that person very clearly has the element in their ego AND has a solid understanding of how to distinguish it from other elements they also use. That's very rarely applicable here, although a lot of people do make that claim and are listened to in spite of neither having the element, nor understanding it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    But it takes away energy from the dominant function, so you use it less, correct?
    I don't see it that way that it takes away energy from the dominant function.
    But I guess there would be a conflict if both and would be nearly equally valued conscious functions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I've spent many hours discussing all of the elements and what each means with @anndelise over the years, an IEE who of course has direct experience with Ne.
    Ok, that would be true in cause the of Delta NF types and Alpha NT types is the same. Isn't there a destinction between + and - in socionics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    How can an extraverted element not be an external element? What is the definition of external that you're using? Your example sounds external (in the colloquial sense) to me, given that you're seeing all the possibilities of the use of something in the external world. Isn't that referring to "the world around us"?
    Extroverted vs introverted aspects in socionics is the difference between bodies and fields. The objects/bodies are what extroverted elements are looking at, while the connections between those objects are the focus of the introverted elements. It differs from MBTI and from Jung in this.

    Because extroverted is looking at the objects in the world, then yes, in that way it's about the world around us. But, it's not the observable qualities of those objects that Ne is looking at (the external qualities is Se, not Ne) The stick in my example, that's a thing in the world, but the focus of Ne is not on the external reality of that thing. It's not on the color, the shape, the material, the position of it - all of which are external features. It's on the unseen qualities, which is what internal means. Internal qualities are those things that aren't obvious to the eye and senses.

    Introverted elements also look at "the world around us" if you want to say that anything related to anything in our environment is about the world around us, but that's not the way I took the phrase. Introverted elements are looking at the connections between objects rather than the objects themselves. Si for example is an introverted element that is also an external element, so it's far more connected with physical reality than Ne is. It's about how things relate to one another in the physical world (external connections) but Ni is both introverted and internal, and so is removed both from objects and from the external reality of them (internal connections.) And Ne is the internal qualities of the objects rather than the external ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Yes, but Ne is a function with a focus on the connections between different objects in the world around us.
    This is mostly Ti. It makes sense for a Ti lead to describe Ne in these terms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Ok, that would be true in cause the of Delta NF types and Alpha NT types is the same. Isn't there a destinction between + and - in socionics?
    I also have spent 20+ years around an ILE family member, was in a relationship with an ILE for 7 years, etc. etc. lol. I know how Ne works in action in both alphas and deltas. I'm not some ignorant fool stumbling around reciting memorizations if that's what you're thinking. . . I also think it's rather silly that you're acting as though I need to have my credentials checked or something before I'm allowed to speak about something that I am quite well-informed on, but don't bother turning that scrutiny on yourself and asking whether you actually know what Ne is, or if maybe you could learn something too.

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    Returning back to the core topic, LII-Ne tends to come off less certain, more "diffused" and "livelier", more NF/Np like than Ti subtype as their interest tends to be not as completely focused on a single area, though not too scattered either. Still has core topics and patterns they return to, still models on those things are constantly revised with new info, just covers more grounds on unrelated things/can hold the space for more contradicting information to sift through them. Probably more into more ambigious things, things like fiction (with boosted Ni) or tries to combine models that at first glance doesn't work together, compare and contrast to try to find common themes and what fits together and doesn't, and why they do or don't. They don't go as obsessively detailed with a single model, so much as gaining competence over different models to a point they feel they still grasp the "core" of it, more of going said compare-contrast thing.

    Probably gets confused over if they are ILE or EII at some point. When it comes to the Enneagram, definitely doesn't give as rigid 1-core vibe, yeah. Also, Ti subtypes give more of Tj vibe, in general. Ne subtype comes off more childish/playful at times, more prone to using things they think is appropiate/expected in general social communication, maybe. More unfinished projects also might be a thing. Just what I could think on top of my head, anyway.

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    LII and their Ne. Just watch Ben Vasserlan's videos with Gulenko. Both demonstrate Ne a lot but it is very very different. Gulenko makes postulates whereas Ben just throws stuff out there.
    Gulenko takes deep Ne dives. Really goes in it. He could possibly pass as ILE if you are not careful. Usually creative is demonstrative - it shows grasp but kind of leaves it half way.
    Sol mb F type due to his inability to think alternatives.


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    I think the fictional character "Mr Bean" is the archetype of LII-Ne.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    But another post says that Ti is the function that sees the connections between different objects, which makes sense given that Ti is about logic and logic is about connecting disparate abstract objects via equivalence relationships and hierarchical networks.
    Yes! =)

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    An LII-Ne can pass as EII-Ne or IxE even.
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    In some ways, the creative function seems more evident than the leading function for a couple of reasons. (1) The creative function surfaces in contrast with the default backdrop of the base function, giving it definition. (2) The creative function is used to interact with others and the world at large.

    So, if you want to understand how a function works in a vacuum, I recommend observing types who have the function in the creative position.

    I guess it doesn't provide 100% accuracy, since the strength of the creative is only 3D, but it's good for a foothold into better understanding.
    Last edited by Karatos; 10-10-2018 at 01:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Wouldn't the same reasoning hold for the role function as well, then? Since users almost use it in a vacuum during first impressions, it would seem like a good way to see how an exaggerated use of the function would manifest in real life. Considering extremes is often a strong method for determining truth.
    Unfortunately the role function is pretty weak, so you don't really see the full throttle version. But other than that, your reasoning is solid.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    This is more evidence to support my theory that LII-Ne is more characteristic of the archetypical INTP in MBTI. Applying the base description of the INTP can make it difficult to see whether the person is introverted or extroverted or feeling or thinking. MBTI's definition of Ne is extremely broad, which is why this is possible.
    I agree that LII-Ne fits INTP better, simply because LII-Ne is more irrational. All the introverted types in MBTI seem to correlate with the contact subtypes. Inert subtype introverts will most likely be mistyped in MBTI.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    I agree that LII-Ne fits INTP better, simply because LII-Ne is more irrational........
    I doubt that type is so linear; one doesn't become a better connoisseur of wine when one drinks more. Ne cannot be analysed in isolation, and mapping Socionics into MBTI is also not that linear.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I doubt it's this systematic, but if there were such a system, then how would it work?
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...lements-Primer
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ation-Elements

    These descriptions, like many other logical reductions in socionics, are probably useful only at the most abstract level — in order to see that the 8 information elements are 'deep' characteristics of reality that go beyond easily quantifiable categories.

    The concrete content of the 8 information elements can best be understood by studying people who have these elements as their leading functions.
    Also, I like your profile picture. Where did you get it from?
    Thank you. Deviant art.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Well, that depends on what standard of conversion you're using, not that any of them are particularly good. For example, if you expect ISTp-Si to map to MBTI ISTJ, then it's unlikely since an Si subtype of ISTp would be even more laid-back, whereas an average ISTJ would be relatively strict. But, if you expect ISTp-Si to map to MBTI ISTP, then I would say it's definitely possible given that the MBTI definition of Se is similar to the socionics definition of Si.
    I meant that an SLI-Te correlates best with ISTJ, whereas an SLI-Si does not have such a good correlation in MBTI. Someone who is SLI-Si would probably mistype in MBTI.
    Though to be fair, all people with a strong subtype tend to mistype themselves. But I see it particularly often with introverts, especially those who have a strong Inert (first function) subtype.
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    So at the moment I am thinking that LII is about the ability to logically compute and arrange concepts and ideas.

    Here is an example. I'm having a bad hair day, I meet an LII (who matches the 1st but not 2nd LIE sketch among standard references). We hit it off famously. I get energized and need to break away. Probably activity relation aside, he as shop manager sees my sad frizzy hair from the rain yet doesn't directly react. Yet subconsciously it gets registered as he points out examples of mourning hair jewelry - necklaces crafted from hair - in his antique jewelry shop. See what I mean? He sees my hair, the emotional reaction of sadness is registered, and computed in a logically additive way among the many antiques he was already telling me about. He presented to me a new variation on a theme.

    I think Alpha NTism is about thematic variations. Gamma NTism is more about factual data deduction and related rationalism. I am not quite content with this explanation but at least it is not overly vague and is headed in the right direction. My cognitive definitions post is on the general discussion page with basic definitions for reference. Ne is a concept, image or complete idea map or belief. Ni is a rational field. Ti is logic. Te is data. All NTs navigate this sea only in different ways.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

  31. #31
    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Look up pix (Google Images) of Maria Bello. She is LII-Ne like one of my longtime friends who typed INTJ and VIs like Maria as seen in video. She is known for her big smile but this may or may not be type related. Socionics.com also typed Maria as an LII. I define LII per functional analysis more than published portrait descriptions out there and the like. The descriptions are inconsistent from theorist to theorist.
    Last edited by vesstheastralsilky; 12-17-2018 at 03:47 PM.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

  32. #32
    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Characteristic LII-Ne poses by Maria Bello

    1st eyes & characteristic philosophers brow (more pronounced on Ti subtypes)
    2nd smile

    maria-bello.jpgmaria-bello-large.jpgmb059.jpg
    Last edited by vesstheastralsilky; 12-17-2018 at 03:33 PM.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

  33. #33
    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    An LII-Ne can pass as EII-Ne or IxE even.
    People seem to frequently type me ILE based on online interactions. I've also been typed IEE once or twice, one of those times based on VI from an old picture of me.

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