Are certain types more suitable to live as male or female?

[Hope]

Do you think certain types are more suitable to live as male or female?

To live in terms of society and masculinity/femininity, besides biological life.

[Adam Strange]

Are you asking if certain personality types are more masculine or more feminine?

Yes.

Here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-by-E-Filatova

[DirectorAbbie]

No. Just different types are considered more masculine or feminine by society's standards. Which is stupid, since to my knowledge type distribution is unrelated to sex.

But I'll have further data on this topic once my survey is done.

[Hope]

Are you asking if certain personality types are more masculine or more feminine?

Yes.

I know certain types being more masculine/feminine according standards, but I want to know if ppl think that certain types are more suitable for one or other sex in terms of life conditions (comfort, work, relations, biology etc). In other words, if its easier to live as an LIE male (for example) than a LIE woman in society.

[WVBRY]

I know certain types being more masculine/feminine according standards, but I want to know if ppl think that certain types are more suitable for one or other sex in terms of life conditions (comfort, work, relations, biology etc). In other words, if its easier to live as an LIE male (for example) than a LIE woman.

Excluding social standards, why would it be?

[Hope]

Excluding social standards, why would it be?

I asked in society.

[WVBRY]

I asked in society.

Ok but I don't understand what you're asking.

Can you give an example of why it would be easier to be an LIE male than LIE female for example, barring social expectations?

[Adam Strange]

I know certain types being more masculine/feminine according standards, but I want to know if ppl think that certain types are more suitable for one or other sex in terms of life conditions (comfort, work, relations, biology etc). In other words, if its easier to live as an LIE male (for example) than a LIE woman in society.

Yes, it is easier to live as an LIE male than an LIE female.

Because, you know, expectations are everything.

I know two LIE females, and in them, normal LIE behavior is interpreted as being very un-feminine. They are no-nonsense, take no prisoners, business bitches. One ran a division of GE and the other runs a hotel. We get along great, incidentally.

I can't ethically post either of these women's pictures, but think Helena Christensen. She has a certain appeal, but she's not exactly the image of soft femininity.

Here is a short film where LIE Christensen meets a male ESI (who actually looks like an ESI buddy of mine):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eWsWicnBt4

[Hope]

Ok but I don't understand what you're asking.

Can you give an example of why it would be easier to be an LIE male than LIE female, barring social expectations?

I'm asking if in your opinion or experience an LIE male would have for example an "easier" life (better life conditions in general) than a LIE female. IE if its easier live as an LIE male than an LIE female.
So if its more suitable to live in current society for certain types as one or other sex.

I never said barring societal expectations. Why do you keep repeating that? I'm asking about society which implies considering societal expectations, but not just end it up there, but going further into the question.

Another perspective, how do you feel living right now as an LIE male in the terms I mentioned?

[Hope]

Yes, it is easier to live as an LIE male than an LIE female.

Because, you know, expectations are everything.

I know two LIE females, and in them, normal LIE behavior is interpreted as being very un-feminine. They are no-nonsense, take no prisoners, business bitches. We get along great, incidentally.

Thank you.

[WVBRY]

I'm asking if in your opinion or experience an LIE male would have for example an "easier" life (better life conditions in general) than a LIE female. IE if its easier live as an LIE male than an LIE female.
So if its more suitable to live in current society for certain types as one or other sex.

I never said barring societal expectations. Why do you keep repeating that? I'm asking about society which implies considering societal expectations, but not just end it up there, but going further into the question.

Sorry, I repeat that because I hadn't understood what you were asking.

Yes, I think it's easier for certain types to be certain genders. In the case of female LIE, the stay at home mom role doesn't fit them at all.

[Hope]

Sorry, I repeat that because I hadn't understood what you were asking.

Yes, I think it's easier for certain types to be certain genders. In the case of female LIE, the stay at home mom role doesn't fit them at all.

Thank you and no need to be sorry, I know I often don't explain myself accurately, lol.

Anyway, somehow thats pretty stereotypical (old fashioned). I don't think most females now in western culture have to fit the role of staying at home and being a mom. I think they also have to fit another roles as for example, having a good appearance with perfect shape, success in terms of career, be a good partner (with typical feminine characteristics), getting their own money to pay the bills etc. More or less the same as males but also without forget biological roles. Males have to fit their roles too. So I'm interested in knowing opinions/experiences about the quality of life and satisfaction of each type in both genders. Maybe a survey will be better ofc. But this is just a random probe.

Besides societal expectations there is also the maslow hierarchy of needs and its fulfillment. I mean, how satisfied a person is with his life and how many chances/opportunities has to fulfill it and how(if) sociotype and gender influence that.

[Aramas]

Do you think certain types are more suitable to live as male or female?

To live in terms of society and masculinity/femininity, besides biological life.

Yes

[Vespertine]

Today, I looked around and I played "count the alphas!"... this alpha SF environment is killing me. A few betas NF, a few deltas may make it bearable... but being ILI there is like having been born wrong...
I spent my life feeling out of place and wrong around women... I feel like a clueless dude most days, but being actually female and having grown up around females, I find it difficult to be around men. I ended up stranded somewhere in the middle for trying to "adapt to feminity", or whatever.
I think female gamma NTs have it tough... can't talk for other types.

It's why I come to this forum, met people alike me who live alright without denaturing themselves.

[Aramas]

I've noticed that being a certain type tends to change physiological characteristics towards a certain gender. Male LIEs will be pretty masculine for example, while female LIEs will be more masculine than the norm. And I don't mean just behavior, but also bodily characteristics.

I recently became aware of an LIE girl who is lesbian. She had one hell of a chin.

[Starvish]

I think there would be some trends but nothing definitive. It would be largely based around whatever society you're living in, and whatever stereotypes apply to both genders, or to certain sexualities.

[idontgiveaf]

None.

[Guillaine]

Probably gender stereotypes and norms encourage certain IMs as more pleasing or acceptable in men or women depending on the culture. That is why it seems to me if you are authentically you will in some way be radical and a role model for others and break stereotypes because no one is just one thing, we all have all IE's at our disposal and need examples of men and women who use them successfully in their own ways.

I like, for example, Jeanne Moreau (SLE), whose roles in films were not stereotypical of women ie. she had two lovers, an affair, a romance in her 60's with a younger man on screen etc. It's really cool she embraced who she was (and directors at the time did too) and so expanded the notion of what it means to be feminine.

What do you think Aki since you raised the topic?

[Sol]

masculinity/femininity follows from biological and inborn inclinations mostly

There are common social roles (in big degree historically inspired, preindustrial times were different), the common behavior for people according to their sexes. They mb associate with some types traits.
Types as INF* and EST* are on the sides of women and men traits in common today stereotypes. So the closer a man or a woman is to the type of other side - they more they may feel themselves as lesser fiting to norms. But I doubt the most of people care much about this types factor, as the understanding they are attractive for opposite sex is more important. When people feel as loved or liked - they would not think significantly about how they fit to sexes norms, as mostly they are important to be attractive. With the lack of this feeling they may doubt higher about own types traits relating to common sexes roles.

[Rebelondeck]

No. One of the limitations of MBTI seemed to originate from preconceived notions of masculine and feminine traits (elements?) permeating cognitive processes, and Socionics, so far, does little to eradicate this bias. F and N need to be viewed as qualitative rationalization and data acquisition processes whereas T and S defined as quantitative. The current models still seem to suffer from remnants of the original flawed approach, which cannot be described as scientific.

a.k.a. I/O

[Desert Financial]

Filatova's perception of socionics gender roles:

Most to least masculine types:
+3: SLE, LSI, LIE, LSE, SLI
+2: ESI, LII, SEE
+1: ILE, ESE
=0: ILI
-1: SEI
-2: EIE, EII, IEE
-3: IEI

Most to least feminine types:
+3: SEI, ESE, IEI, EIE, SEE, EII, IEE
+2: ESI
+1:
=0: LSI, ILI, LSE, SLI
-1: ILE, LII, SLE, LIE
-2:
-3:

*If life gets easier the more one adheres to their respective gender role, and Fivatola is correct, then females find some ease in being the most feminine types and males find some ease in being the most masculine.

However, I'm not convinced that todays gender roles are strictly enforced enough to validate the *initial premise 100%. I'd wager, instead, that society has too broad range of expectations to validate the conclusion. Ie. I'm not convinced that female IEIs necessarily have it easier than females with a bit more well-rounded traits. Similarly, I'm not convinced that SLEs have it easier than males with a bit more well-rounded traits.

Instead, I'd argue that gender roles play a part in how easy life is, but the types that strike a little more of a balance have it easier overall because they have some traits to adapt to curve-ball expectations. Maybe SEE is a good example of a type that could adapt to various circumstances more readily.

And, as a caveat, many other factors, such as socio-economic, social, and physical factors, play into how easy it is to be one gender or another.

[Desert Financial]

In other words, if its easier to live as an LIE male (for example) than a LIE woman in society.

My moms an LIE and frankly I think life would have been much less rough for her had she been a male. I get the impression she was discouraged (if not punished) for just being herself, which created a maelstrom of emotional insecurities.

[golden]

I’m one of the feminine types per Socionics, and in reality I am told I’m feminine.

There are certainly times when I have been able to use that to my advantage.

Yet I have found I don’t relate to what a lot of women and girls do and say. It’s like observing creatures from another planet.

Since I already feel alienated in this way, I’d rather just be a T type, really.

[Desert Financial]

I’m one of the feminine types per Socionics, and in reality I am told I’m feminine.

There are certainly times when I have been able to use that to my advantage.

Yet I have found I don’t relate to what a lot of women and girls do and say. It’s like observing creatures from another planet.

Since I already feel alienated in this way, I’d rather just be a T type, really.

I can't say I envy beta NFs. It seems like they struggle just existing, living in a world of ineffable abstraction that's hard enough to vocalize as it is without the added inclination toward tact and diplomacy.

Honestly, though, there's no reason to trade yourself for someone else. Just own it.

[Bertrand]

the trick is to give up the inclination toward tact and diplomacy

[Desert Financial]

Remember, kids. Just give up.

[Rebelondeck]

@A Moderator Non-uniform distributions (seemingly in Filatova's gender roles that you presented) tend to indicate inconsistencies - perhaps in definitions or IE classifications, which should warrant a full reassessment of the proposition.

Note that I've known female SLEs, LSIs, LIEs, LSEs and SLIs who have done very well for themselves so I wonder whether or not your mother had bad luck over her lifetime because I doubt that her insecurities were directly caused by her so-called 'masculine' type. Even today, a majority of females have huge barriers to personal success and fulfillment simply because most societies are patriarchal.......

a.k.a. I/O

[Desert Financial]

Note that I've known female SLEs, LSIs, LIEs, LSEs and SLIs who have done very well for themselves so I wonder whether or not your mother had bad luck over her lifetime because I doubt that her insecurities were directly caused by her so-called 'masculine' type. Even today, a majority of females have huge barriers to personal success and fulfillment simply because most societies are patriarchal.......

a.k.a. I/O

It's a mixed bag, concerning her, but I agree with your overall assessment.

[Hope]

My moms an LIE and frankly I think life would have been much less rough for her had she been a male. I get the impression she was discouraged (if not punished) for just being herself, which created a maelstrom of emotional insecurities.

yeah, it happens to me often. Not sure about the existence or extent of emotional insecurities in myself due it, though. Probably I'm just shameless.

[WinnieW]

LII is a more masculine type despite having -PoLR. That's interessting.

[Desert Financial]

Well aren't we just a happy family?

[golden]

Well aren't we just a happy family?

So. Happy.

[Number 9 large]

Do you think certain types are more suitable to live as male or female?

To live in terms of society and masculinity/femininity, besides biological life.

Masculinity: T
Femininity: F

All other dichotomies are unisex

[Hope]

What do you think Aki since you raised the topic?

I don't have any particular opinion about it yet, though, I suspect some personality types fit more naturally to one or another gender, and this not just due societal expectations necessarily. I think some male/female brain differences could point more to one or another type too. Maybe its about hormones.

When its about societal expectations, I feel like I don't fit well with the ethical expectations obviously, i.e. women should be talkative, be more open, express their emotions and feelings, simile a lot, be pleasant, be nice, say nice things, etc etc. But its not like I care most of the times either, honestly. I care more if it affects life quality and how one feels about one's self and life than what others think.

Sometimes I think that my type fits more naturally to males. But to be honest, maybe life is not easier for SLIs males either, maybe SLI males feel also too lazy, too umotivated, too uncompromising, not aggressive or ambitious enough etc, who knows. I don't know their levels of satisfaction or life quality.

I also read somewhere that duality was "easier" if the male was SLI and the female IEE than the opposite because types fitted naturally male and female qualities respectively. What do you think about it?

[Starvish]

Coming back to this thread I remember people always saying I'm very gentle (and my friends and girlfriend like to poke fun at me for my more feminine traits); I'd imagine whatever type I am fitting more so with women... they'd probably have an easier time with those sorts of thoughts and personality traits. And I'd wager a guess that someone who valued traits more opposite of mine would fit better if they were male.

Some people just naturally exhibit traits associated with the opposite gender. They'll obviously grow to accommodate whatever isn't natural for them over the course of their life to play a sort of role regarding gender stereotypes and expected behaviors, but at the end of the day who they are at their core will resonate with the opposing stereotypes. We all play roles, it's just that some fit like a glove and other like a... sock on your hand or something. Soft and cozy at first but smothering and restrictive.

[The Reality Denialist]

Filatova: Well, there is one thing about EII's where I don't trust them and it is their capability to give non biased grades to people. Sure there is nothing wrong of being considering options however in their case it usually leads to giving too much credit for the underdog which skews things in the end. Yes, I don't myself prefer black and white thinking in this either but a person should at least put an effort and follow alternative implementation or something along those lines.

[Adam Strange]

I don't have any particular opinion about it yet, though, I suspect some personality types fit more naturally to one or another gender, and this not just due societal expectations necessarily. I think some male/female brain differences could point more to one or another type too. Maybe its about hormones.

When its about societal expectations, I feel like I don't fit well with the ethical expectations obviously, i.e. women should be talkative, be more open, express their emotions and feelings, simile a lot, be pleasant, be nice, say nice things, etc etc. But its not like I care most of the times either, honestly. I care more if it affects life quality and how one feels about one's self and life than what others think.

Sometimes I think that my type fits more naturally to males. But to be honest, maybe life is not easier for SLIs males either, maybe SLI males feel also too lazy, too umotivated, too uncompromising, not aggressive or ambitious enough etc, who knows. I don't know their levels of satisfaction or life quality.

I also read somewhere that duality was "easier" if the male was SLI and the female IEE than the opposite because types fitted naturally male and female qualities respectively. What do you think about it?

I know a few SLI's and IEE's of both genders, and I do think it is easier for the male to be SLI and the female to be IEE.

Male SLI's: My military-loving father, my photographer son, and a physics researcher whom I work with. All of these guys seem to be riddled with well-concealed self-doubt (as are all SLI's, IMO), but they are at least engaged in fairly "male" professions.

Female SLI's: My ex-wife who works in the UM Law School, and an Iranian researcher who is getting a PhD in Optics. Both are guarded and clearly expect not to be liked by other people, and are working in what are traditionally considered to be "male" professions.

Female IEE's: My ex-wife's IEE-Ne sister, who flits around working as a secretary for various companies but whose real avocation is watching SpongeBob Squarepants videos with children, and my IEE-Fi bookkeeper, who is forced to work because her husband is fairly irresponsible. She'd prefer to stay at home and watch her kids 24/7. Both seem to lean toward more traditionally "female" kinds of work.

Male IEE's: A retired schoolteacher who never married but has four cats living with him in his immaculate house. He's probably not gay, IRDK, but he's not exactly a model of a hyper masculine "fighting male".

[The Reality Denialist]

Filatova's perception of socionics gender roles:

Most to least masculine types:
+3: SLE, LSI, LIE, LSE, SLI
+2: ESI, LII, SEE
+1: ILE, ESE
=0: ILI
-1: SEI
-2: EIE, EII, IEE
-3: IEI

Most to least feminine types:
+3: SEI, ESE, IEI, EIE, SEE, EII, IEE
+2: ESI
+1:
=0: LSI, ILI, LSE, SLI
-1: ILE, LII, SLE, LIE
-2:
-3:

*If life gets easier the more one adheres to their respective gender role, and Fivatola is correct, then females find some ease in being the most feminine types and males find some ease in being the most masculine.

However, I'm not convinced that todays gender roles are strictly enforced enough to validate the *initial premise 100%. I'd wager, instead, that society has too broad range of expectations to validate the conclusion. Ie. I'm not convinced that female IEIs necessarily have it easier than females with a bit more well-rounded traits. Similarly, I'm not convinced that SLEs have it easier than males with a bit more well-rounded traits.

Instead, I'd argue that gender roles play a part in how easy life is, but the types that strike a little more of a balance have it easier overall because they have some traits to adapt to curve-ball expectations. Maybe SEE is a good example of a type that could adapt to various circumstances more readily.

And, as a caveat, many other factors, such as socio-economic, social, and physical factors, play into how easy it is to be one gender or another.

And here is Gulenko's list: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ups-by-Gulenko

Most feminine: EII, EIE, SEE, SEI
Most Masculine: SLE, SLI, LII, LIE

Somewhere between (feminine to masculine transition): LSE, LSI, ILI, ILE
Somewhere between (masculine to feminine transition): IEI, IEE, ESE, ESI

LOL, I don't personally see huge need to fit in according to gender guidelines. I just happen to be a male.

[Rebelondeck]

LII is a more masculine type despite having -PoLR. That's interessting.

Masculine cannot really be framed in a cognitive sense; it's related to animalistic instincts that cognition tries to keep under control or suppress entirely. Maleness is really a biological state in which the primary imperative is to fight for the right to impregnate females. For clarity, cognitive processes should be treated separately from all biological functioning; they can be superimposed later.

a.k.a. I/O

[The Reality Denialist]

I think Gulenko did pretty good job framing mentality of types in terms if masculine and feminine, though. It is not in terms of direct behavior and appearance.