polr as a source of freedom/strength

[Guillaine]

I've been watching my sli duals and admiring their Fe polr in the sense that they don't get hung up about other people's feelings or spend heaps of time (like me) speculating on how people feel and how they would feel if they act in a particular way. It seems to me the other side of the coin of this blind spot is a kind of freedom, ie they are simple and straightforward and masculine in a way, and not held back by these concerns, they just want what they want. I find it liberating to observe.

Also I greatly admire or am fascinated by EII's and their lack of Se which seems to amount to a certain non-resistance or ability to accept things and take them into themselves almost unquestioningly. Of course it has a down side, but I believe it is also a strength it gives them delicacy and graciousness that I admire.

Another type I know well, SEI seems to be able to get at what's interesting by a lack of TE or a lack of use of it, it gives them their strong sense of fun becasue they don't spend time thinking about what is practical or efficient, not that Te is always boring per se.

I can't really see for my own type objectively what Ti polr give us...some kind of irrational freedom? Freedom from logic?

Anyway, what are your thoughts.. reflections...

[Bertrand]

its a matter of perspective, everything you value for not being there is someone else's base function which in turn means they love that someone doesn't have a trace of what you yourself exhibit most strongly. if one were cynical one could say a person being a creature of unrepentant base urges makes them easily manipulated, even by a simpleton like you, and that's why you love it. you can call it masculine but its kind of like calling men idiots, but loveable, which is like the premise of a bunch of middle class TV like king of queens or whatever. its actually kind of an inversion of the masculine principle which is it used to stand for sun, logos, truth, divine inspiration etc, but history progresses in stages and in the night stage (represented by the various quadra) things are inverted. in such a stage stupidity is an embodied value and celebrated in others. this needs to happen because there is no yin without a yang and this goes doubly across the time axis. the day is nothing without the night, so here's to all the dopey fools, God sure made a lot of them

[Guillaine]

Sorry Bertrand. I'm not trying to offend or say some functions are better than others. I wanted to hear about the other types and what could be considered their potential strengths of not having much of their polr. function

[Bertrand]

don't be sorry, I love your post

everyone should list what they love about their duals and by implication what they hate about their conflictor, it will be illuminating as to their type as well as just a fun celebratory exercise of "stuff people like"

Ive always admired girls who I could imagine killing someone with a sword.. the person would have to deserve it of course, but the point is the potential is there. I feel like there's something deeply feminist about this to boot, because it liberates them from the perception that a proper woman is a human incapable of violence and one who makes it their mission to fatten up other humans and otherwise render them likewise harmless. I don't feel like declawing your own kittens is what motherhood is really about, that's something that came later and diminished the species as it became increasingly "domesticated" i.e.: completely dependent on the whims of the butcher who raised them and will eventually devour them as well. there is, however, something about the terrible mother in that oedipean complex of dependence and consumption that can't be denied its share of femininity

[Vespertine]

I like this.
Sure as a X PoLR, it becomes difficult around X, though we need some hope that it's not the end of the world and that we can be appreciated by some people for who we are. ♡

[Number 9 large]

I've been watching my sli duals and admiring their Fe polr in the sense that they don't get hung up about other people's feelings or spend heaps of time (like me) speculating on how people feel and how they would feel if they act in a particular way. It seems to me the other side of the coin of this blind spot is a kind of freedom, ie they are simple and straightforward and masculine in a way, and not held back by these concerns, they just want what they want. I find it liberating to observe.

Also I greatly admire or am fascinated by EII's and their lack of Se which seems to amount to a certain non-resistance or ability to accept things and take them into themselves almost unquestioningly. Of course it has a down side, but I believe it is also a strength it gives them delicacy and graciousness that I admire.

Another type I know well, SEI seems to be able to get at what's interesting by a lack of TE or a lack of use of it, it gives them their strong sense of fun becasue they don't spend time thinking about what is practical or efficient, not that Te is always boring per se.

I can't really see for my own type objectively what Ti polr give us...some kind of irrational freedom? Freedom from logic?

Anyway, what are your thoughts.. reflections...

Ti polr is a rejection of logic in favour of emotion (Fi), as well as weak logic on this regard. It judges the world through a lens of emotional reciprocity and judges ppl based on their emotional value and ethical correctness towards the user, instead of through the lens of logic/and/or logical value towards the user.
So whereas Fi polr tends to treat people like objects through a lens of logic, Ti polr tends to treat even objects like people/through a lens of emotional weighing, unable to look at things objectively/detached from emotion.

[Guillaine]

Yeah, PoLR sometimes can be a source of strength if other functions are too tired to reach its satisfactory condition. Since PoLR has the smallest amount of energy to being fulfilled rather than other functions (especially in mental superblock), then it is too easy for other types whom wanted to cover my PoLR, wlll lead me to a new level of satisfactory (and it always unexpected).
The problem is, sometimes I have thought that it is a source of strength like you. But it isn't. That isn't my source at all. That's my dual's and my supervisor's sources, which being trusted for me to be my resources of strength. So that's why interacting is important, because PoLR isn't comes out naturally from myself like leading or creative function. I should trust them to give me that source and they should trust me to accept that source. If there's no trust, then don't ever think that PoLR will be a great function to be source of strength. PoLR will always weak forever, if you don't trust someone to cover your PoLR.

Be strong, my mirror.

I agree with you, I was meaning it is a weakness, but the very fact that you don't value and don't use it well kind of allows a certain liberation to think in other ways and therefore the lack of it is not really a weakness but a secret strength. It could be said of the role function as well perhaps, if you accept you are weak in them and allow others to use them and are humble about them and not defensive about criticism you may (feel you) receive around those functions, then it is not a bad thing any more, it is a non issue, or perhaps even a blessing. It's only when you cling to using them and try to oust others/keep up with others, and choose to use them over your lead and creative, that they really are weaknesses. Does that make any sense?

[Guillaine]

Ti polr is a rejection of logic in favour of emotion (Fi), as well as weak logic on this regard. It judges the world through a lens of emotional reciprocity and judges ppl based on their emotional value and ethical correctness towards the user, instead of through the lens of logic/and/or logical value towards the user.
So whereas Fi polr tends to treat people like objects through a lens of logic, Ti polr tends to treat even objects like people/through a lens of emotional weighing, unable to look at things objectively/detached from emotion.

Thankyou, this is what I was wondering about. So it's like we are good at personalising everything in a way...? And also feeling things from objects around us, ie one IEE ne I know is a location scout for film sets, that kind of thing.
I wonder about the other types.

[Guillaine]

don't be sorry, I love your post

everyone should list what they love about their duals and by implication what they hate about their conflictor, it will be illuminating as to their type as well as just a fun celebratory exercise of "stuff people like"

Ive always admired girls who I could imagine killing someone with a sword.. the person would have to deserve it of course, but the point is the potential is there. I feel like there's something deeply feminist about this to boot, because it liberates them from the perception that a proper woman is a human incapable of violence and one who makes it their mission to fatten up other humans and otherwise render them likewise harmless. I don't feel like declawing your own kittens is what motherhood is really about, that's something that came later and diminished the species as it became increasingly "domesticated" i.e.: completely dependent on the whims of the butcher who raised them and will eventually devour them as well. there is, however, something about the terrible mother in that oedipean complex of dependence and consumption that can't be denied its share of femininity

yeah there is something safe about being around people who still have some of their wild instincts in tact

[Xaiviay]

It's really nice to know my POLR can be seen in a positive light, so thanks for that!! Normally I feel a lot of shame around my . I always hoped someone would see it at least as a likeable quirk that allows me to be more fun or free-spirited, even if I'm not as efficient as ExTj types >.<

So that's kind of like you said, the POLR can be a certain kind of freedom or liberation. Actually I like to think about this subject lots, especially when it pertains to my dual.

POLR in ILEs looks like a very appealing type of freedom. I remember before I even found Socioincs, I'd try to explain to myself and others that I wanted a partner who "didn't care about how other people feel, but also had good intentions and didn't mean any harm" Lol, looking back on it I think I was just describing Fi POLR. Not worrying about whether or not they make someone else emotionally uncomfortable underneath allows them to ignore societal restrictions in favor of innovation or exploration.

As for SLEs, POLR gives them the freedom to just do 'whatever works' even if it's widely disliked by those around them.

Looking at LIEs and EIEs, I think it's clear that the POLR can be very freeing in that they don't suffer as much under physical discomfort. They seem free to pursue whatever plans they prefer, no matter how straining it might be. is only a problem for them when their lack of attention to their state results in injury, and less personal effectivness as a result. However, it seems like most of them learn how to take better care of themselves as soon as it becomes absolutely necessary. Until then, they're unstoppably productive, and that's definitely a kind of freedom.

[Guillaine]

It's really nice to know my POLR can be seen in a positive light, so thanks for that!! Normally I feel a lot of shame around my . I always hoped someone would see it at least as a likeable quirk that allows me to be more fun or free-spirited, even if I'm not as efficient as ExTj types >.<

So that's kind of like you said, the POLR can be a certain kind of freedom or liberation. Actually I like to think about this subject lots, especially when it pertains to my dual.

POLR in ILEs looks like a very appealing type of freedom. I remember before I even found Socioincs, I'd try to explain to myself and others that I wanted a partner who "didn't care about how other people feel, but also had good intentions and didn't mean any harm" Lol, looking back on it I think I was just describing Fi POLR. Not worrying about whether or not they make someone else emotionally uncomfortable underneath allows them to ignore societal restrictions in favor of innovation or exploration.

As for SLEs, POLR gives them the freedom to just do 'whatever works' even if it's widely disliked by those around them.

Looking at LIEs and EIEs, I think it's clear that the POLR can be very freeing in that they don't suffer as much under physical discomfort. They seem free to pursue whatever plans they prefer, no matter how straining it might be. is only a problem for them when their lack of attention to their state results in injury, and less personal effectivness as a result. However, it seems like most of them learn how to take better care of themselves as soon as it becomes absolutely necessary. Until then, they're unstoppably productive, and that's definitely a kind of freedom.

Yes, te polr is bad if you wanna be somewhere on time lol! But for playfulness it is the best. Te gets in the way, or rather without it you can easily take things out of their original contexts, for writing songs and playing with words, poetry it is brilliant.

THankyou, what you said about ile helped me realise my ti polr is about not paying attention to societal norms too, or freedom from those ones about how you have to behave/dress, heirarchical things and they are the exact things that are the calling card for my dual.

[golden]

Some strong points of IEE’s Ti polr can be that by not viewing the world within a systemic, structuring logical fashion they can greatly humanize the person or situation they are putting their attention on and rapidly find ways to overcome stalemates, open closed doors, open doors others didn’t notice etc.

[golden]

Looking at LIEs and EIEs, I think it's clear that the POLR can be very freeing in that they don't suffer as much under physical discomfort. They seem free to pursue whatever plans they prefer, no matter how straining it might be. is only a problem for them when their lack of attention to their state results in injury, and less personal effectivness as a result. However, it seems like most of them learn how to take better care of themselves as soon as it becomes absolutely necessary. Until then, they're unstoppably productive, and that's definitely a kind of freedom.

I would say it’s more like the ego elements are unhindered by the polr, so something like working through pain is more a negative side effect and not a positive manifestation. The positive is that in absense of an emphasis on whatever Si is (internal sensory monitoring and recordkeeping that seems to accumulate as granular details???) the Ni creative is very free to do willful internal pattern matching and modeling not bound by sensory experience.

[The Reality Denialist]

Just ask about my feelings on things. All what you are going to get is an offbeat [internal] analysis. Things are not easily going to get personal with me. tends to give an impression of having all the shit together in a weird way from what I have noticed.

[Xaiviay]

I would say it’s more like the ego elements are unhindered by the polr, so something like working through pain is more a negative side effect and not a positive manifestation. The positive is that in absense of an emphasis on whatever Si is (internal sensory monitoring and recordkeeping that seems to accumulate as granular details???) the Ni creative is very free to do willful internal pattern matching and modeling not bound by sensory experience.

I agree that the absence of Si allows the Ni creative to more freely use their ego functions not bound by sensor experience. The lack of emphasis on the POLR allowing the ego elements to be unhindered is a good summary of the idea behind this thread. Also, I think the ability to push through pain can be a positive or negative thing, depending on the situation of course. As someone who is becoming painfully aware of how bad I am at applying myself when I'd rather rest and be comfy, the tendency to do the opposite is something I find admirable in Si POLR types! The tendency to ignore pain and push through it is a positive thing when there is something more meaningful to be gained.

[Aramas]

I've noticed this with some ILI friends. They either don't do Fe, or they do it so poorly that my only reaction is "please, never even try to do that again."

It could be seen either as a failing or an ultimate shield. They just don't respond to it.

[golden]

I've noticed this with some ILI friends. They either don't do Fe, or they do it so poorly that my only reaction is "please, never even try to do that again."

It could be seen either as a failing or an ultimate shield. They just don't respond to it.

Right, so like I count on my ILI friends to deliver assessments that aren’t restricted by social pressures or expectations, whether the thing they stand for is what people want to hear. This can be really valuable, like in the case of a friend who works hard on an unpopular but commonsensical political issue. It’s easier for him to advance it because not only does he very thoroughly understand it, he’s not apparently very sensitive to rejection and can keep making the same arguments until they stick.

It has also meant that a couple of times ILIs were the best people to cut through a lot of bullshit in a way I found personally / emotionally supportive.

[golden]

As someone who is becoming painfully aware of how bad I am at applying myself when I'd rather rest and be comfy, the tendency to do the opposite is something I find admirable in Si POLR types! The tendency to ignore pain and push through it is a positive thing when there is something more meaningful to be gained.

Ha, I can understand that, it’s just that the push-through-pain thing isn’t sustainable and obvs doesn’t work taken to an extreme. As in a dead EIE I’m thinking of who had a big impact in a particular area but lived too hard, eventually had a stroke, smoked post-stroke, was wheelchair-bound, and subsisted on soda and hotdogs, and that was with an LSI trying to keep him alive.

Personally I have permanent nerve damage from pushing through pain and would happily go back and rethink that situation if I could reverse time.

[Aramas]

Right, so like I count on my ILI friends to deliver assessments that aren’t restricted by social pressures or expectations, whether the thing they stand for is what people want to hear. This can be really valuable, like in the case of a friend who works hard on an unpopular but commonsensical political issue. It’s easier for him to advance it because not only does he very thoroughly understand it, he’s not apparently very sensitive to rejection and can keep making the same arguments until they stick.

It has also meant that a couple of times ILIs were the best people to cut through a lot of bullshit in a way I found personally / emotionally supportive.

Still have to be careful though. Just like anyone else, they have the ability to lie and manipulate if they have intent. It's just that they don't really react with Fe. They're like a noble gas in that context lol.

[golden]

Still have to be careful though. Just like anyone else, they have the ability to lie and manipulate if they have intent. It's just that they don't really react with Fe. They're like a noble gas in that context lol.

I haven’t met any I found to be very good liars, but I knew one who was engaged in a long-term plan that required deception and succeeded. Anyway the ones I’m thinking of are friends and good people but point taken

[Sol]

the freedom to be retarded

[Hope]

Ti PoLR makes xEEs cute, happy and funny people, free from structure and little concerned if they or others make much sense.

[falsehope]

Having weak polr is never good, it's better to have it a bit stronger. For example, SEI without Te is walking disaster. Similarly weak Fe in ILI can be TRULY disastrous. Same with any other polr. It's essential part of the psyche and without it it's no good. It's better to have it well balanced by various means, by having well balanced personality, by acquiring it from others, by developing it via hard work. Polr is not something we dont have, but something we have and it's either very negative, neutral or positive. Having negative polr sucks. So SEE without a bit of structure in his live is negative, has likely troubled personality and so on. Positive one is like accepting, needing and providing weak but ANY structure and is therefore a good person.

Let me speculate that the weak parts of personality are the main cause of troubled personality. It is because they are essential for us to function normally but because they are weak they are difficult to develop properly. So for example severe abuse during childhood would cause these weak functions to develop badly and then cause several disturbance in adulthood. And this would manifest as negative weak functions, specifically polr for example. And as polr is essential as every other function to make whole personality function properly, it makes person properly troubled.

So therefore when counseling some difficult person it would make sense to focus on polr and other weak parts. So this way it would be possible to find out the faults in the thinking and try to resolve them. I can see how this can be done with Fi as it would be pretty much easy pattern of thinking to spot (e.g. "I am not 'normal', I am born criminal"), while with Ni this could be a bit more challenging, as it would require person to accept that not everything they see must make sense and not all answers are in front of them and also be more humble like not knowing it all, and also more social oriented and accept what other people telling you and the list goes on.

[Aramas]

Having weak polr is never good, it's better to have it a bit stronger. For example, SEI without Te is walking disaster. Similarly weak Fe in ILI can be TRULY disastrous. Same with any other polr. It's essential part of the psyche and without it it's no good. It's better to have it well balanced by various means, by having well balanced personality, by acquiring it from others, by developing it via hard work. Polr is not something we dont have, but something we have and it's either very negative, neutral or positive. Having negative polr sucks. So SEE without a bit of structure in his live is negative, has likely troubled personality and so on. Positive one is like accepting, needing and providing weak but ANY structure and is therefore a good person.

Let me speculate that the weak parts of personality are the main cause of troubled personality. It is because they are essential for us to function normally but because they are weak they are difficult to develop properly. So for example severe abuse during childhood would cause these weak functions to develop badly and then cause several disturbance in adulthood. And this would manifest as negative weak functions, specifically polr for example. And as polr is essential as every other function to make whole personality function properly, it makes person properly troubled.

So therefore when counseling some difficult person it would make sense to focus on polr and other weak parts. So this way it would be possible to find out the faults in the thinking and try to resolve them. I can see how this can be done with Fi as it would be pretty much easy pattern of thinking to spot (e.g. "I am not 'normal', I am born criminal"), while with Ni this could be a bit more challenging, as it would require person to accept that not everything they see must make sense and not all answers are in front of them and also be more humble like not knowing it all, and also more social oriented and accept what other people telling you and the list goes on.

And yet the most successful people are the ones who most closely resemble their types. Trying to focus on weak functions is not going to make you a better or more well-rounded person. You have to maximize your strengths to succeed.

[squark]

And yet the most successful people are the ones who most closely resemble their types.

What makes you think so?

[Aramas]

What makes you think so?

Experience.

[Xaiviay]

Having weak polr is never good, it's better to have it a bit stronger. For example, SEI without Te is walking disaster. Similarly weak Fe in ILI can be TRULY disastrous. Same with any other polr.

Do you have to put such a pessimistic angle on things Especially with right off the bat criticizing SEIs which are supposed to be your dual.

There's positives and negatives to be said about any of the type functions, depending on how they are used. Obviously the POLR is often a weakness, but I still think an argument could be made that it has a plus side, mainly because it allows the person to divert more time and energy toward the realization of their ego IMs.

[Guillaine]

Having weak polr is never good, it's better to have it a bit stronger. For example, SEI without Te is walking disaster. Similarly weak Fe in ILI can be TRULY disastrous. Same with any other polr. It's essential part of the psyche and without it it's no good. It's better to have it well balanced by various means, by having well balanced personality, by acquiring it from others, by developing it via hard work. Polr is not something we dont have, but something we have and it's either very negative, neutral or positive. Having negative polr sucks. So SEE without a bit of structure in his live is negative, has likely troubled personality and so on. Positive one is like accepting, needing and providing weak but ANY structure and is therefore a good person.

Let me speculate that the weak parts of personality are the main cause of troubled personality. It is because they are essential for us to function normally but because they are weak they are difficult to develop properly. So for example severe abuse during childhood would cause these weak functions to develop badly and then cause several disturbance in adulthood. And this would manifest as negative weak functions, specifically polr for example. And as polr is essential as every other function to make whole personality function properly, it makes person properly troubled.

So therefore when counseling some difficult person it would make sense to focus on polr and other weak parts. So this way it would be possible to find out the faults in the thinking and try to resolve them. I can see how this can be done with Fi as it would be pretty much easy pattern of thinking to spot (e.g. "I am not 'normal', I am born criminal"), while with Ni this could be a bit more challenging, as it would require person to accept that not everything they see must make sense and not all answers are in front of them and also be more humble like not knowing it all, and also more social oriented and accept what other people telling you and the list goes on.

I see what you're saying and I wonder how it works in relation to my post. I mean, even if you do become somewhat competent in your polr it is still in that position in your psyche. Does that take away from the good side of having it? As far as having a bit more balance what I find observing myself and my son who is see is that when we are calm we can use our ds to an extent and that actually seems much more helpful and balancing. I can draw and play music and cook pretty well in that state, my son explains the passage of time through stories, it does more for our well being and for the family dynamics than using our polr i think.

But regarding my SLI duals I have found that the polr is the most attractive feature in the sense that I can always, though a bit painstakingly, improve my si and te or even -si, whatever, but I cannot blot out my Fe, so that feature in them becomes surprising and emboldening. It is what gets my heart racing. For example if they stare at me and I react by squirming or blushing and in response to that they do not change at all, then I am off the hook and I feel free because their actions are not dependent on my feelings, the link there is broken, and I am free to explore my fi-fe creatively and to the very best of my ability. Also oftentimes things come out of my mouth in a way that almost scares me, it sounds so tragic or appalling, but then they have this way of repeating back to me what I said after having sucked the Fe out of it so it sounds really mundane and normal and it is so reassuring.

[Computer Loser]

the freedom to be retarded

LOL

yea it don't matta in the end bro cuz LOVE WINS!!!!!

[lemontrees]

Sort of... I can think of cases where I admired SLI's b/c their Fe-PoLR made them feel more "real." <3

Unfortunately the PoLR exists even if you don't notice it. Trying to get things done when you can't see Te is like running all the time into walls and feeling blindsided. F PoLR people have emotions that affect them but they don't even know what they are. I like my dual's attitude towards my PoLR, that to achieve what you care about you cannot 100% ignore it.

[sbbds]

No pain no gain. The most messed up individuals feel no remorse about their sucky polr, and/or overcompensate pathetically with it and with HA. Just look at Kill4Me being a dickwad on here. If you do not TRY hard to use that area and be okay with failing, you will not ever gain the necessary experience to grow- as that area relies purely on experiential learning.

How do you grow a muscle? You work it past exhaustion. You need to break down the fibres so that they can finally be remade.

HA is called the most limiting factor in your psyche. Without enough informational consistency though (your polr being the opposite vertness making internal or external consistency with HA), your HA quality is going down the drain quick.

[The Reality Denialist]

I just don't know how not noticing relations between people is a strength but meh. I have been able to live without it. I don't aim to destroy them so just voice your concerns. It makes me relational less paranoid while at meeting them first time I can be subconsciously paranoid af.

Solely focusing on deciphering person's functioning via logical collection of data points makes people quite predictable but it is like AI: runs without clear purpose.