What does an ESE/ESFj want to hear?

[MrsTortilla]

Hi everyone.

So my mother-in-law is ESE. We have butted heads for years (extinguishment relations are not fun).

At this point I have learned to just nod and smile mostly with her because I have no idea what to do when she talks to me. It's not just what she says but how my responses never seem right (clearly, to her, as evidenced by her reaction to me).

Let's say she's telling me a story. If I seem interested or ask follow-up questions, she seems surprised by the questions I ask. Almost as if they are inappropriate follow-ups. If she gives me life advice and I explain how my situation doesn't call for carrying that advice out, we butt heads. If I instead just agree with her life advice, she also seems weirded out and it's awkward. I know this is a vague explanation, but it's hard to explain the dynamic. Also, she's always texting me things that make no sense to me and that seem to come out of nowhere. I know this is probably pretty typical of extinguishment but can someone help me?

If you are an ESE or know them well, how do you respond when an ESE gives you advice in a way that is actually pleasing to an ESE? I feel like she respects people who stand up for themselves but when I do this she just seems to be affronted.

I'd love to hear some advice.

Thanks. :-]

[Rebelondeck]

Type would likely be minor factor in a mother-in-law disconnect and every situation is unique. I wouldn't worry about awkward conversation because disconnections occur at so many levels. If you get respect from her, be thankful and don't focus on the gulf. At the least, she's making attempts to connect and maybe someday it'll happen but it's something that can't be forced. Usually, ESEs lay everything on the table so they're relatively easy to read. You may be a greater puzzle because ESIs normally play their cards very close to their chest so she may only want a glimpse of the person inside.

a.k.a. I/O

[Exodus]

This does vaguely sound like ESE behavior.

If she is ESE, I would guess that what she is looking for is a positive emotional reaction or gratitude (for the advice). But if someone is giving you advice that doesn't make sense then your reaction is entirely reasonable. Personally, if it had been going on for years I would just end up ignoring her.

[Adam Strange]

I had an LSI GF, half of whose functions were those of a Dual, and the other half were those of Extinguishment. We never agreed or even understood each other when exchanging information on the Extinguishment channels. This is pretty much what broke us up.

I have a sister and work with several people who are Extinguishment partners. I have found that none of them will ever take my advice regarding anything, and their advice to me is ludicrous. I find it best to not interact with them more than is absolutely necessary, and to simply make it clear that I like them for whom they are and appreciate their good work. And then I leave the convo as soon as possible, which makes everyone happy.

[WVBRY]

When I butt heads with someone close I like to ask my mom (EII) why they are reacting that way and she is able to explain their motives to me. She understands people much better than I do.

It's obvious you and your mil don't understand each other, my advice is to ask someone who is close to both parties to try and get help from a third party. Maybe a counselor, or a relative. Though to do that you both have to recognize there is a problem. Does she know you feel this way? Have you spoken to her about this problem?

In any case, this dynamic isn't working by what you describe. I agree with thehotelambush that ingoring her would be the simplest solution, but it might not be an option if she is close and perhaps you don't want to cut her off anyways.

[falsehope]

You have right to make decisions for yourself and you are not responsible for feelings of others if it's caused by themselves by giving you bad advice. She is your mother in law so you want to keep good relationship and saying no makes her angry. So there isnt solution to this. No will always be no. The only thing you can do is not to feel bad about it. ESE very often has issues with anger. That's not your problem.

[MrsTortilla]

When I butt heads with someone close I like to ask my mom (EII) why they are reacting that way and she is able to explain their motives to me. She understands people much better than I do.

It's obvious you and your mil don't understand each other, my advice is to ask someone who is close to both parties to try and get help from a third party. Maybe a counselor, or a relative. Though to do that you both have to recognize there is a problem. Does she know you feel this way? Have you spoken to her about this problem?

In any case, this dynamic isn't working by what you describe. I agree with thehotelambush that ingoring her would be the simplest solution, but it might not be an option if she is close and perhaps you don't want to cut her off anyways.

This might be really good advice! I could ask my EII husband for a reality check. The reason I don't usually ask him is that in the past I have merely complained about his mom (the ESE) when I couldn't take it anymore, and I think I really offended him and he saw it as badmouthing his mom. But I have done a lot better trying to be positive about her very intentionally in the last couple years, so maybe I can approach it with him differently now.

And you're right, I don't want to cut her off. She's wonderful with my kids and is a generous, nice person in general. It's like @Adam Strange said about extinguishers, their advice to you seems ludicrous. And I'm the kind of person that isn't afraid to be contrary if needed so there's often friction. She IS aware of the friction... Once it got so bad she actually chewed me out and was so particularly mean about something that wasn't even her business. After that, I didn't speak to her for a few days and then she desperately tried to get ahold of me, apologized profusely, even saying she thought she used to bully her sister in a similar way to how she was treating me when she got mad. But eventually she seemed to forget about the incident and things continue to be as annoying with her as ever...

The weird thing is that her ENXp husband, my FIL, will tell me that she obsesses about me sometimes, worrying about me, talking about me, and generally expressing "If only she [me] would follow my advice!..." so it kind of leads me to think she wants a certain reaction out of me that I'm failing to give. But yeah, I'm not going to follow advice that's bad for me.
@falsehope, agreed - I have the right to make my own decisions of course. Here's the question. If I give her lip service ("thanks for your advice, you're so right," etc.) but then do what I want to do instead, will she be offended and think I was being fake with her?

[The Reality Denialist]

Extinquisment types can push each other's nerves when it comes to base.

I'd say that the approach will be deemed as unnecessary by other party when it comes to their own methods while they can see it as valid and bit exciting when it comes to others.

I solved one ILI's non realized problems just like that by pointing something out and using simple improvisational powers to get around technical problems but working on same stuff together can be quite frustrating experience for extravert.

Direct advice: not great
Pointing out something not so accessible: yes, probably

[MrsTortilla]

Type would likely be minor factor in a mother-in-law disconnect and every situation is unique. I wouldn't worry about awkward conversation because disconnections occur at so many levels. If you get respect from her, be thankful and don't focus on the gulf. At the least, she's making attempts to connect and maybe someday it'll happen but it's something that can't be forced. Usually, ESEs lay everything on the table so they're relatively easy to read. You may be a greater puzzle because ESIs normally play their cards very close to their chest so she may only want a glimpse of the person inside.

a.k.a. I/O

This is a very good point. MIL relationships are intrinsically fraught!

Another point you make I hadn't thought of -- maybe she is just trying to figure me out! That could explain the stuff she says that flummoxes me... she's probably confused that I'm confusing to her when she's good with people etc. She just doesn't know why *I* am being weird, from her point of view.

[Adam Strange]

Instead of saying "thanks for your advice, you're so right", I'd say "Thanks for your advice. I really appreciate it. I don't know if I can implement it because I'm not XYZ and I don't have your amazing UVW skills, but I'm so glad you gave me that advice. It's something I will think about." In other words, don't say that she's right, because she isn't right, for your particular case.
Later on, you can tell her how you solved the problem in your own way. She is probably genuinely interested in helping you, and is probably having a hard time understanding how you can walk and chew gum at the same time, because - zero shared values. So knowing that you solved it yourself might help her to understand that you can actually be pretty functional in the real world without being an Alpha.

From her standpoint, she's a caring (Caregiver) mother and the world is full of errant children. Her advice is basically going to be oriented toward an LII. As low-Fe Infantile introverts, LII's need lots and lots of Fe support and encouragement of a certain type (which I am unable to provide) in order to overcome feelings of despair and of not fitting in. These are not really your kinds of problems, so her advice to you is going to fall flat. Sort of like a duck telling a cat that all it needs to do to fly is to flap its wings. ("Fly, little cat! You can do it, I know you can!") You don't have to apologize to her for not having feathers, you have plenty of your own virtues. You might want to focus on subtly letting her know that you are making your way in the world just fine, but that you appreciate her concern.

[Rebelondeck]

I've seen the ESE/ESI dynamic work very well when there is a joint task to accomplish; they can have very similar work ethics and goals. It's when they talk of perceptions, plans and strategies that things can come off the rails. The ESE can be rash in their judgements and want immediate closure or results whereas the ESI prefers to think about things first. Also, ESIs seem to have poorer memories for the facts that ESEs deem important; ESEs usually center their egos around their knowledge/experience base while ESIs treat information as more transient and changeable.
@Adam Strange It's not encouragement that LIIs need from ESE and LIIs don't normally despair or feel isolated; in fact, they like isolation more than crowds. ESEs do help LIIs with socializing by acting first as catalyst and then as a sort of shield or buffer. They also help to humanize because if left to their own devices, LIIs can become very detached, cold and or ruthless. ESE's keep LIIs from becoming too idealistic and thus twisting out of shape.......

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

I've seen the ESE/ESI dynamic work very well when there is a joint task to accomplish; they can have very similar work ethics and goals. It's when they talk of perceptions, plans and strategies that things can come off the rails. The ESE can be rash in their judgements and want immediate closure or results whereas the ESI prefers to think about things first. Also, ESIs seem to have poorer memories for the facts that ESEs deem important; ESEs usually center their egos around their knowledge/experience base while ESIs treat information as more transient and changeable.
@Adam Strange It's not encouragement that LIIs need from ESE and LIIs don't normally despair or feel isolated; in fact, they like isolation more than crowds. ESEs do help LIIs with socializing by acting first as catalyst and then as a sort of shield or buffer. They also help to humanize because if left to their own devices, LIIs can become very detached, cold and or ruthless. ESE's keep LIIs from becoming too idealistic and thus twisting out of shape.......

a.k.a. I/O

@Rebelondeck, I can see what you are saying, although in my experience LII's do appreciate being told that they are stronger than they think, more loved than they know, etc. And it could very well be that the feelings I assumed were despair at not fitting in were simply cold detachment. It is very hard for me to know exactly what another person is feeling.

[MrsTortilla]

@Rebelondeck, I can see what you are saying, although in my experience LII's do appreciate being told that they are stronger than they think, more loved than they know, etc. And it could very well be that the feelings I assumed were despair at not fitting in were simply cold detachment. It is very hard for me to know exactly what another person is feeling.

I have an LII sibling too, Adam, and agree this kind of Fe help is 100% needed and desired (at least in the case of this one brother of mine). I don’t know about despair at not fitting in; I thought it was just that depression just runs in our family. :/

[Spermatozoa]

"You remind me of my mother....can I suck your tits?"

[Rebelondeck]

@Rebelondeck, I can see what you are saying, although in my experience LII's do appreciate being told that they are stronger than they think, more loved than they know, etc. And it could very well be that the feelings I assumed were despair at not fitting in were simply cold detachment. It is very hard for me to know exactly what another person is feeling.

Most people like knowing they're doing alright but false praise - the LIIs that I've known would cringe at such notoriety. Most LIIs seem to think themselves NOT the greatest things since sliced bread although I would not interpret this as lack of confidence; it has more to do with not attracting expectations. There's also that little idea inside many LIIs that they don't want to be outed for whatever reason so they normally prefer life at the periphery. ESEs like being at the center and are often noted for their effusive praise because they seem to like it for themselves but most LIIs would likely consider this an embarrassment; people normally won't get much praise from LIIs, and ESEs learn quickly not to draw their LII mates into the center.

a.k.a I/O

[Adam Strange]

Most people like knowing they're doing alright but false praise - the LIIs that I've known would cringe at such notoriety. Most LIIs seem to think themselves NOT the greatest things since sliced bread although I would not interpret this as lack of confidence; it's has more to do with not attracting expectations. There's also that little idea inside many LIIs that they don't want to be outed for whatever reason so they normally prefer life at the peripheral. ESEs like being at the center and are often noted for their effusive praise because they seem to like it for themselves but most LIIs would likely consider this an embarrassment; people normally won't get much praise from LIIs, and ESEs learn quickly not to draw their LII mates into the center.

a.k.a I/O

@Rebelondeck, that’s a very good description of the motivations for the behaviors I see in LII’s.

I don’t think I have ever done the false praise thing. I agree that it is cringeworthy, and is really unnecessary, since there are usually plenty of genuine things to admire about their behavior.

[Hope]

ESEs don't need to hear a lot, if you let them they do all the chat for themselves. You just need to be patient, smile when they finish a sentence and add little like: yeah thats possible, thats right, yeah, I see, etc.
Unless ESE is your mom, you are safe of her pushing too much too get information or else (though they always speak a lot, you can't change that). In general they are fine with little from your part in conversation (oriented toward LII). They feel better if you just let them talk and for your own good, I suggest don't taking too seriously her words. I've seen before that Fi types feel overwhelmed by ESE, Eand find ESE too invasive, I think its a primary values difference. ESE needs talking loudly for expressing their current emotions (good and bad), while Fi types use emotions just when they are angry or as a tool, though fi types can feel Fe expression as a somehow invasive since they naturally feel like they must give/do what others expect for being good, (ethics of relations). Truth is not necessarily like that.
Btw, ESE always think everybody else wants/needs advice since ESE is caring and extroverted and feels like taking care of others, so she takking and giving unrequested advice us Fe Si, and yes its very oriented towars LII too. Don't take that personally. Its part of her nature.

[silke]

Let's say she's telling me a story. If I seem interested or ask follow-up questions, she seems surprised by the questions I ask. Almost as if they are inappropriate follow-ups.

ESI confirmed lol. It is such an ESI trait to ask questions when someone is telling things about themselves, and you guys ask about the most obvious things possible, hence the reaction of surprise that you get from your MIL. This is quite possibly due to lack of Ti and repressed intuition. It feels startling that a person cannot connect the dots to that extent and asks questions about something that is that apparent.

I'd say you need to switch your communication tactic from asking questions, which only places an accent on your incompatible types, to listening, empathizing, and offering your own complimentary yet brief commentary. The ESE expects deep Ti understanding, which is what you cannot provide - only LIIs can - but by asking her questions you're only emphasizing this fact and broadcasting the difference between you. Each type communicates with others the way they expect their dual to listen and to respond. Keeping this in mind ask yourself: how would an LII communicate with an ESE? There is lots of information about LII-ESE duality posted on Wikisocion that will give you some pointers on this, with the general form being laconic non-intrusive respectful empathetic and understanding comments with an inquiry or two here. The LII does not ask a shit ton of questions because the LII understands - think of this as a form of deep Ti empathy - and especially not about what's right there present in conversation because the Ne-creative/Ni-demonstrative is able to weave that information together.

The weird thing is that her ENXp husband, my FIL, will tell me that she obsesses about me sometimes, worrying about me, talking about me, and generally expressing "If only she [me] would follow my advice!..." so it kind of leads me to think she wants a certain reaction out of me that I'm failing to give.

Good news is that she cares about you. There's not much weird about this. That's generally how ESEs demonstrate that they care for someone - by worrying about you, thinking about you and trying to talk to you - perhaps more often than you'd like it - as well as attempting to give you their advice and tell you of their own life experiences.

[MrsTortilla]

ESI confirmed lol. It is such an ESI trait to ask questions when someone is telling things about themselves, and you guys ask about the most obvious things possible, hence the reaction of surprise that you get from your MIL. This is quite possibly due to lack of Ti and repressed intuition. It feels startling that a person cannot connect the dots to that extent and asks questions about something that is that apparent.

I'd say you need to switch your communication tactic from asking questions, which only places an accent on your incompatible types, to listening, empathizing, and offering your own complimentary yet brief commentary. The ESE expects deep Ti understanding, which is what you cannot provide - only LIIs can - but by asking her questions you're only emphasizing this fact and broadcasting the difference between you. Each type communicates with others the way they expect their dual to listen and to respond. Keeping this in mind ask yourself: how would an LII communicate with an ESE? There is lots of information about LII-ESE duality posted on Wikisocion that will give you some pointers on this, with the general form being laconic non-intrusive respectful empathetic and understanding comments with an inquiry or two here. The LII does not ask a shit ton of questions because the LII understands - think of this as a form of deep Ti empathy - and especially not about what's right there present in conversation because the Ne-creative/Ni-demonstrative is able to weave that information together.


Good news is that she cares about you. There's not much weird about this. That's generally how ESEs demonstrate that they care for someone - by worrying about you, thinking about you and trying to talk to you - perhaps more often than you'd like it - as well as attempting to give you their advice and tell you of their own life experiences.

The above, though maybe obvious to everyone else, is probably the most helpful response from my POV I’ve seen in this thread. Thank you!

It makes so much sense. Whenever I do respond at length she seems to start tuning me out, too. An LII would probably keep it concise.

The only time I’ve seen her with an LII is when one of my brothers (LII) met her. At one point she was telling him all about the blood type diet and rationale behind it, which she’s really into. Now I know for a fact he actually thinks the blood type diet is dumb and unscientific. But there he was, listening politely, unperturbed. And then he somehow managed to say something brief but validating that touched on evolutionary biology and seemed to make her so happy. He didn’t have to fake anything and he didn’t have to agree but it worked so well. I haven’t thought of this again until now but I really should learn to use my Ti role with her more.

Anyway, thanks again for the perspective.

[Rebelondeck]

My ESE spouse and I get along largely because we do not tread in each others pasture so we aren't able, even by accident, to defecate in them. We don't share many interests so our discussions tend to be descriptive in nature - generally about what's going on in each other's pasture. When asked an opinion, it's usually about something outside our normal domains so our feedback is objective and unbiased with no hidden implications. The only conflict we have is when she tries to drag me into her world for some special occasion. My spouse and her ESI sister share a lot of history and common interests but never seem to agree on interpretation, importance or approach. No matter how they try to see the other's point of view, the only successful tactic seems to be to switch to talking about something foreign or remaining silent when certain topics are broached. Sometimes it's the differences that can keep people together like magnetic poles - while looking for commonality can sometimes be fraught with potential points of conflict......

a.k.a. I/O