SLI: worst sociotype ever?

[Bertrand]

this is a joke post about how absurd the premise is, if you don't like the premise it seems weird to blame the person drawing attention to how dumb it is, instead of putting the blame where it belongs, in the flaws of the original idea to begin with. i guess this is another manifestation of "you're right, but you're making it worse by fighting over it" but that's not really true unless you think the solution to all bad ideas is to simply ignore them rather than engage them, which is a dubious stance. its also why the forums bloat up to infinity with misinformation and any new person stumbling upon this place is just as likely to absorb a million and one stereotypes cliches and flat out wrong conceptions, and if the point is to improve the situation you can only ignore everything that contributes to that process for so long. by failing to address the issue head on you simply sacrifice the future for a more stable present. therefore I think its silly to suggest Aki somehow is somehow the problematic one in all of this

[ooo]

yeah, it's not that Aki stole someone else's considerations about their own type, made fun of them and of the person in public, avoiding to address the person and her content, then ignored said person's complaints, and then blamed her for her unwillingness to improve (?! lol) and for the request to avoid being defensive over what she said, no, it has nothing to do with it! it's just that the content of those personal ideas is completely bad, wrong, harmful for socionics and for the next generations of socionics enthusiasts! coz God forbid that any personal consideration on a SLI's weak spots be shown or analyzed, by another SLI. we want to defend socionics! yo! shame on all those "respectable" people who dare to say something we don't agree with!

I could see many traits of that list in the SLIs I know, yet I was bothered by the tone of the op, and by how things developed from the start, without understanding why, then I realized it. it's really blind to support something without knowing what it is even about. it's really sad to allow everything just because we like or don't like someone.

nothing in here fits the dear old pink stereotypes of the Delta quadra, this is the funniest part.

[Bertrand]

you're assuming its really about trashing this other person and not about the idea itself, yet everything in the OP is precisely constrained to the idea itself.. what more would you like?--if not bringing the other person into it is what precisely makes it about the other person there is literally no way she could have failed to be nasty by your standards, damned if you do damned if you don't, etc. in essence you have assumed guilt, and then found it and in doing so lost sight of what's really at stake, which are the ideas themselves. this is about typology at bottom not 2 bitches fighting over dumb shit, despite your attempts to turn it into that. one must also consider what the point of making it into that would even be, i.e.: what possible reason do you have for seemingly want things to be construed as such. perhaps over time you believe by simply being straight up that would resolve their relationship more effectively, but to take that approach would simply have put the onus on Aki to either handle it here, bringing her into conflict with golden's way of preferring things ought to be done, or handling it in PM, making cosmic teapots "cry for help" a unilateral requirement that Aki, if bothered, go to her. this latter theory is not terrible, but I wonder if cosmic teapot would appreciate the underlying assumption that her theory has no real merit and is little more than a cry for help. not to mention it structures one person's actions as imposing an extremely narrow set of duties on the other, as if Aki is suddenly required to do precisely what is best for cosmic to the exclusion of self and broader environment, for no other reason that cosmic is "requesting" it by being bad--this is infantilizing cosmic, treats her like a baby as a base proposition. its not predicated on taking the idea seriously to begin with, which is fine, but if that is the case and cosmic is neurotically drawing attention to herself with provocative and intellectually specious ideas why does that suddenly make it someone else's responsibility to resolve the situation on a personal level. in essence there are too many contradictory points of view to satisfy everyone, thus it is entirely fair to not selectively expect perfection from anyone, but simply joke about how dumb the ideas themselves are, leaving the people out of it. true, if they could just figure out how to get along maybe we wouldn't have the bad ideas being tossed about, therefore solving it at the root, but this puts a demand on people to focus entirely on how they get along and assumes intellectual fertility will just fall in line as a consequence of paying it no attention at all, which is absurd, at some point one must address the idea itself. Aki's approach works against the danger the misconceptions themselves present, does not infantilize cosmic, puts no impossible obligation on aki, etc. the real reason the ideas matter is because countless people read these forums so cosmic can get the therapy she needs not at the expense of the collective who may or may not need it more. where is your compassion for the SLI who reads this shit and actually believes it (or worse believes it so much they type themselves something else, in a misguided attempt to distance themselves from a false premise), will you simply cross that bridge when you come to it? etc. something tells me you're not prepared to handle that problem. therefore it simply pushes things back--its not a workable way of dealing with problems, they simply multiply and while it may temporarily give you something to do by generating controversy in this particular way, it only creates an inference that all your good will is self centered at bottom and its precisely your selfishness, in that regard, that makes you judge Aki action's negatively.. not that anything she did was actually "bad." There's actually very little evil here at all from anyone. its just human melodrama mixed up in some bad ideas, at least we can get straight about how dumb some of these attributes of SLI are. yes, it is in some sense only treating the symptom, but one that happens to have far reaching negative consequences, with a near intractable source. and if you want to play diplomat between Aki and Cosmic you are free to do so. everyone has their strengths

[Hope]

@ooo
Flaming is not allowed in the forum. Ignoring someone includes don't messing up with their threads or person either, and its also in the forum rules. I ask you to refrain yourself from commenting in this thread from now on.

If I'd put her name in the list without her consent it would be a personal attack and it was not, since the goal was to discuss the ideas. Discussing about something and stating that is not mine is not stealing someone considerations.

[golden]

this is a joke post about how absurd the premise is, if you don't like the premise it seems weird to blame the person drawing attention to how dumb it is, instead of putting the blame where it belongs, in the flaws of the original idea to begin with. i guess this is another manifestation of "you're right, but you're making it worse by fighting over it" but that's not really true unless you think the solution to all bad ideas is to simply ignore them rather than engage them, which is a dubious stance. its also why the forums bloat up to infinity with misinformation and any new person stumbling upon this place is just as likely to absorb a million and one stereotypes cliches and flat out wrong conceptions, and if the point is to improve the situation you can only ignore everything that contributes to that process for so long. by failing to address the issue head on you simply sacrifice the future for a more stable present. therefore I think its silly to suggest Aki somehow is somehow the problematic one in all of this

I'm not sure whom you're addressing this to, but in case it's to do with me, I addressed the dynamics of the thread because I found them interesting. I also find it interesting how the thread rhetorically framed the discussion, because that's the sort of thing I pay attention to. I'm not calling any individual problematic because I don't have a problem with anyone in it, including @Aki, nor do I think the thread is that different from so many others. I'm trusting that no real offense was meant and it seems as if Aki and Cosmic are able to handle it like grownups and it's not my place to say anyone should be upset.

[Cosmic Teapot]

If I'd put her name in the list without her consent it would be a personal attack and it was not, since the goal was to discuss the ideas. Discussing about something and stating that is not mine is not stealing someone considerations.

You would have needed my consent to make a list that is so obviously a reflection of my blog post in the first place. Your thread was a direct reaction to my blog post. I ask you to refrain from such behavior in the future.

[ooo]

to steal: Take (another person's property) without permission or legal consent.


Aki, I wasn't even addressing you, I was making a joke on someone else's idiotic stance. But apparently jokes are all ok and fun until they involve ourselves...? If you don't want me to comment on a public forum about public things where you're involved, that's fine, but that's exactly what you've accused Cosmic of when she asked not to get defensive (and not to avoid any comment), in her personal blog.

Even, if you want me to stop addressing you, stop addressing me.

[Hope]

You would have needed my consent to make a list that is so obviously a reflection of my blog post in the first place. Your thread was a direct reaction to my blog post. I ask you to refrain from such behavior in the future.

Of course not. I dont have to ask for the permission of people if I want to discuss their ideas. Thats absurd. I don't think there are forum rules that forbid the discussion of ideas posted by members in their blogs.

I still waiting for a response in pm, btw.

[Hope]

to steal: [FONT="]Take (another person's property) without permission or legal consent.


Aki, I wasn't even addressing you, I was making a joke on someone else's idiotic stance. But a[/FONT][FONT="]pparently jokes are all ok and fun until they involve ourselves...?[/FONT] If you don't want me to comment on a public forum about public things where you're involved, that's fine, but that's exactly what you've accused Cosmic of when she asked not to get defensive (and not to avoid any comment) in her personal blog.

Even, if you want me to stop addressing you, stop addressing me.

if you mention me or talk about me is the same. Plus you already said all of that in your conversation with me, why bert doesnt have the right to expose his perspective without you shitting in me or he, and why his points are idiotic? just because they dont agree with yours?

I asked you to keep on our agreement of mutual ignore, you were not and still not accomplishing it.

[ooo]

it's absurd to get salty over someone joking in a joke thread (jk)

[Hope]

This thread is going to remain closed until Cosmic Teapot decide to not be defensive about the discussion of her ideas and ooo decide to act like an adult since their attitudes consist in hampering the open discussion and opinions of the rest of forum members.

[Hope]

This is true. My intention is not to offend, this is my honest opinion about them based on my experience. SLIs hide their flaws really well if they want to. They can be a devil to you and no one hear of that. I remember a member here named socio? wrote about her experience with an SLI and how he might have had narcissitic personality disorder, how he treated her like she didn't exist after being crazy about her, I had a kinda similar thing happen to me. It is really bad when SLI treat someone like that, then put the blame on them when they try to tell them about it, making the other seem like the bad guy and refusing to take responsibility for what happened. This is a pattern I observed in many SLIs, and to be sure of it, I have seen others talk about it in other forums. SLIs appear likeable to strangers and people who don't know them well but there is a dark side to them that they only show to a close person. This was a hard pill to swallow for me, but it's the truth about them...

I'm only writing this because when I see people thinking that SLIs are angels (unlike Se ego types for example), it seems wrong to me, ofcourse they have their good traits, but I guess this thread is made for the bad. I hope SLIs here don't get offended (this is all from my personal experience and what I heard from others, it is not directed at anyone).

I'm glad you mentioning about this again, because actually you were other person that I saw often talking about how mean/unfair one SLI has been in the past with you and in the process speaking about type traits as a whole.

Scio wasn't sure about his partner's type. Hence, I don't think thats useful as an example, he could be any other type completely, and her experience was not similar to yours afaik.

Then, imo, thinking in people in terms of devil and angels is not a correct lens or approach for evaluating people. At the end of the day, they are humans just like you, with ups and downs, strengths and flaws. Otherwise, we tend to judge others harshly while we want others to being all loving, kind, forgiving and accepting with us. People tend to demonize and be afraid of what they don't understand, I don't think thats a positive approach, I mean, unless we consider positive a witch hunt. So I think its useful avoiding a medieval mentality in our approach to others, if not, socionics would just end up being used as a prosecutory tool, instead as a tool of improvement of relations and personal growth.

No one is perfect. The faster we learn and accept that the better. Idealizing others is the quickest recipe to failure. And certainly someone can be a devil for you but an angel for someone else. That just means probably that this person is/was not meant for you. The length of relation is not the key in there, either.

If socionics is useful for something, is to understanding that there exist at least 16 different types of personalities, and thats the reason why there would be little chance of they becoming the incarnation of our expectatives. Not like they exist or were born for that single purpose, either. If you ask me, putting the burden of our happiness in someone else shoulders is kinda unfair and trapping ourself into that belief just increase our feeling of victimization, powerless and sabotage our own responsibility. Trying to make others take responsibility about how we feel is refusing to take responsibility about our own feelings. In this way, all of our relations invariably fall into considering people as demons/angels, and that's an unrealistic and unhealthy way of evaluating people imo (considering them as fellow humans, as independent individuals without giving them more power or responsibility for ourselves than they actually have) and evidence a lack of understanding and emphaty. In this sense, people have the right of talking or hanging around to who they esteem is more convenient, that doesnt make them demons, even if their decision made you feel unwelcome. Its part of considering them as individuals with mind, rights and freedom.

[Hope]

this is a joke post about how absurd the premise is, if you don't like the premise it seems weird to blame the person drawing attention to how dumb it is, instead of putting the blame where it belongs, in the flaws of the original idea to begin with. i guess this is another manifestation of "you're right, but you're making it worse by fighting over it" but that's not really true unless you think the solution to all bad ideas is to simply ignore them rather than engage them, which is a dubious stance. its also why the forums bloat up to infinity with misinformation and any new person stumbling upon this place is just as likely to absorb a million and one stereotypes cliches and flat out wrong conceptions, and if the point is to improve the situation you can only ignore everything that contributes to that process for so long. by failing to address the issue head on you simply sacrifice the future for a more stable present. therefore I think its silly to suggest Aki somehow is somehow the problematic one in all of this

Seems right. Plus, blaming others is just a game (often a social one too)to evade responsibility and self work, so its never you the one who must change but the other one (because the other one is evidently mean and you are just a victim). Its easier and ppl (another blamers) supports those solutions because that makes them feel better about themselves too. Incidentally also makes them look as good/better person than they are just for putting the blame in others or presenting aggressor/victim scenarios, instead of being objective, discussing ideas instead of ppl, staying on topic etc. If you pay attention you'll see the discourses of blamers often go in a single direction: "Its not me, the other one is mean or suddenly turned mean, I didn't do anything..." etc. which is just an excuse for actually not taking part of responsibility in life.

Blame protects your ego.

In a way, blaming is form of social comparison that is status-seeking. If you blame someone, it puts you in the superior seat, making you feel more important and the ‘good’ person as opposed to their ‘bad’.

Of course some people use blaming to make themselves a victim. This is really still an ego move, as when you are in ‘poor me’ mode it means you get everyone else’s attention, and are still the ‘good’ person.

Whether you are using blame to be superior or a victim, both come from a lack of self-esteem. The question to ask might even be not so much ‘why am I blaming’, as ‘why do I feel so bad about myself I have to blame others to feel better?’

What are you losing out on by blaming?
If you want to think that blaming is not something to worry about, think again. Blaming others can have long term consequences on your life and personality.

1. Your personal growth.

blame definition
By: Celestine Chua

Blame is a defence. And spending time constantly defending ourselves is really a part-time job that also leaves us shut down to what others have to offer us in terms of lessons and growth.

2. Your power.

By making everything everyone else’s fault you are actually making yourself powerless. Think about it – if everything is someone else’s fault, then that means you don’t have the power to change anything, as they have the reins.

3. Your empathy.

If you use blame to avoid accountability, you are also avoiding speaking truthfully about how you feel and accepting and listening to how others feel. Constantly sidestepping this powerful, vulnerable process of negotiating and communicating means you are not likely to develop empathy for others. In fact research shows that it’s narcissists, with their self-obsessed attributes, who are prone to blame more than others.

4. Healthy relationships.

Given that blame sidesteps healthy communication, which relationships need to thrive, it’s not surprising that if you are a blamer it’s likely you don’t have strong relationships with others. Blaming others is a way of putting people down so naturally it is also a great way to instead push people away, or create a dangerous environment where there is no trust and the other person can’t relax as they always feel judged and devalued.

5. Your positive influence on others and yourself.

Blame has been found by a recent study to be contagious. If you blame, those around you are more likely to then turn and blame others for things. In other words, you are spreading the tendency to avoid responsibility to those around you, both at work and at home. Think about the implications that brings, especially if you have young children or are in a position of leadership where others look up to you.

And you are having a negative influence on yourself as well. Blamers were found to be more ego defensive and also chronically insecure. So the more you blame, the less your sense of self worth.

What to do if you are caught in the blame game
So what can you do if you realise you are too quick to blame?

Full article