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  1. #81
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    that looks right.. systems socionics is not totally onboard with DCNH but I know they cross talk with gulenko and have somewhat similar theoretical understandings. I think they would agree big picture that "dominance" as a social manifestation in any given type flows from their strongest functions. the thing is with a D LSI for example, theyre going to influence their environment in a Fe Te Se way, its just through their own strong functions Ti Si. Thus Stalin or whatever, you can see the Fe Te Se effects, but those are ultimately effects that are created as a consequence of his very strong Ti Si oriented mental processes. a good example is compare putin to Trump, you see trump actually trying to directly implement Fe Te Se way more than Putin, and yet Putin is issuing just as many Fe Te Se effects, even outstripping Trump, who is ultimately almost a cog in Putin's process. yet Trump tries to present himself as the dominator Putin actually is. in other words, you get into the room with them as you see Putin actually dominating Trump, but Trump acting more overtly Fe Te Se. this is the difference between DCNH and base type. Trump has base type more in line with Fe Te Se but Putin is actually D in that interaction. now in other interactions Trump may actually dominate, but the point is here is theres a difference between base type and DCNH, what gives Trump his "try hard" character is often his direct attempt to create a D interaction, because of the closeness of D with SEE base type. You could say the Trump/Putin interaction is a good example of two D types, one supervising the other. and each creating D "effects" in term of Fe Te Se in their own unique way based on base type. Putin in a cold calculating sense, Trump in a bombastic maneuvering, some might say idiotic, sense. yet each can dominate. clearly there is not only one base functional profile for domination
    Last edited by Bertrand; 08-01-2018 at 12:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Well you seem far more "ideology-oriented" than any Te lead ever would be, as they focus more on the purely pragmatic side of things, they don't have much of a need for any overarching and consistent enough reasoning as a basis for their attitudes or views, they are far more interested in just doing what works in practice, focused on the working mechanics of objects to use them rather than a detailed deeper understanding of them.
    Basically the really shitty Si is the only thing that hits home about LIE descriptions I've seen so far. Having a hard time seeing Fe be unvalued, or Ne being a strong function.

    Lol, well, another reason for uniting could be for pure survival reasons. Or in a less dark scenario, just simply for ensuring better progress for humanity overall. Of course it does not mean there can't be competition and conflict still, but it would at least not be on the level of actual wars.
    lol Maybe, countries cooperate pretty well any time some new potential pandemic finds its way out of China but how would that be maintained once the crisis passes. I just have a hard time seeing Uzbeks, Chileans, Congolese, and Americans all finding that degree of common cause short of some sort of cataclysm or extra-species/-planetary. It took Ottomans at Vienna just to get Germans, Poles, and Spanish on the same side lmao.

    But I'm also not all that averse to the idea of wars to begin with, though. Not necessary a fan of it (though I tend to side with Ernst Junger*) but the potential and option has to be there for a (Schmitt**) political distinction of any meaning to matter. When it happens, minus an Other, genuine unity seems have a pretty short shelf-life past a certain scale. America is politically contained but internally that "unity" is more like ranchers keeping livestock from escaping the pen, depressingly. Sociologists tend to argue that the US actually contains 7-9 different nations, and they aren't much fans of each other--at all--until some Saudis flew planes into our towers.

    *
    junger.png

    **
    schmitt.png

    I got that sense, that it's just introspective curiosity. My curiosity about it is also just on that level.
    I'm pretty okay with however all the digging and questioning goes lol as long as there's hopefully some answer. As for me when I stopped trying to pidgeonhole what I should believe or support into another person's framework and said "fuck it" it came as a huge relief and made a lot of topics a lot more fun. Whether that's Ti, Se, or some other damn thing I'm a-okay with it lol

    That kind of sounds familiar to me.
    lmao Nerd rants all day every day.

    Yeah and I guess there is one way to reason for why they'd be put into these function positions but this is getting so speculative at that point and doesn't all add up outside the Ego functions so I'm leaving the topic alone.
    Yeah I get that. I personally lean towards the ideas that can give me an example. An instantiation of X, Y, or Z class of something, which Gulenko seems to be able to do. Dunno about the other way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    that looks right.. systems socionics is not totally onboard with DCNH but I know they cross talk with gulenko and have somewhat similar theoretical understandings. I think they would agree big picture that "dominance" as a social manifestation in any given type flows from their strongest functions. the thing is with a D LSI for example, theyre going to influence their environment in a Fe Te Se way, its just through their own strong functions Ti Si. Thus Stalin or whatever, you can see the Fe Te Se effects, but those are ultimately effects that are created as a consequence of his very strong Ti Si oriented mental processes. a good example is compare putin to Trump, you see trump actually trying to directly implement Fe Te Se way more than Putin, and yet Putin is issuing just as many Fe Te Se effects, even outstripping Trump, who is ultimately almost a cog in Putin's process. yet Trump tries to present himself as the dominator Putin actually is. in other words, you get into the room with them as you see Putin actually dominating Trump, but Trump acting more overtly Fe Te Se. this is the difference between DCNH and base type. Trump has base type more in line with Fe Te Se but Putin is actually D in that interaction. now in other interactions Trump may actually dominate, but the point is here is theres a difference between base type and DCNH, what gives Trump his "try hard" character is often his direct attempt to create a D interaction, because of the closeness of D with SEE base type. You could say the Trump/Putin interaction is a good example of two D types, one supervising the other. and each creating D "effects" in term of Fe Te Se in their own unique way based on base type. Putin in a cold calculating sense, Trump in a bombastic maneuvering, some might say idiotic, sense. yet each can dominate. clearly there is not only one base functional profile for domination

    Awesome. Huge thanks for the example. That's a big help in framing all this in my head.
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  4. #84
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    that whole page is gold, I occassionally go back and reread SSS and I feel like I learn new stuff every time

    multidimensional function, as opposed to a normative one, can confidently function in different situations, including difficult ones. It faces a failure as normal thing - there is no reason to get upset, it is rather an occasion to correct a mistake, change the approach (according to the situation), to learn from the result . Unpleasant? Yes. But nothing dramatic. The function 7 is a kind of "hard-nosed" self-righteous one

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    that whole page is gold, I occassionally go back and reread SSS and I feel like I learn new stuff every time
    That's a way of thinking about it that never occurred. I'll have to sit back and try to think of a few occasions like that and see what I can glean from this...
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    yeah that's a super information dense couple of sentences

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1INT Vault Dweller View Post
    Basically the really shitty Si is the only thing that hits home about LIE descriptions I've seen so far. Having a hard time seeing Fe be unvalued, or Ne being a strong function.
    Shitty Si like?


    lol Maybe, countries cooperate pretty well any time some new potential pandemic finds its way out of China but how would that be maintained once the crisis passes. I just have a hard time seeing Uzbeks, Chileans, Congolese, and Americans all finding that degree of common cause short of some sort of cataclysm or extra-species/-planetary. It took Ottomans at Vienna just to get Germans, Poles, and Spanish on the same side lmao.
    Oh it could be more long-term concerns of humanity surviving due to limited resources unless we cooperate better about sorting out this issue. But yeah I don't expect that to happen fast.


    But I'm also not all that averse to the idea of wars to begin with, though. Not necessary a fan of it (though I tend to side with Ernst Junger*) but the potential and option has to be there for a (Schmitt**) political distinction of any meaning to matter. When it happens, minus an Other, genuine unity seems have a pretty short shelf-life past a certain scale. America is politically contained but internally that "unity" is more like ranchers keeping livestock from escaping the pen, depressingly. Sociologists tend to argue that the US actually contains 7-9 different nations, and they aren't much fans of each other--at all--until some Saudis flew planes into our towers.
    I just see war as starting to stand in the way of progress at one point. I do think war is a necessity at this point (in the present) tho'.

    Again, I don't expect they would disappear all that fast even if we wanted to go towards this, it would be a longer term process.

    Mind elaborating on the bolded, i.e. why did you use this analogy?


    "Courage means to let oneself be nailed to the cross for one's cause. Courage means, in the last moment of life, to still show allegiance to the thought for which one stood and fell."

    I'm going to be cynical, nice way to brainwash people into going into war eh? Not saying it's not good to stand up for causes and fight for them, quite the opposite actually, but... why do we agree the cause is good? And why or when must one's life be given to it? Other than, e.g. in the case of war, another country attacking? (Or ok, the other example I'm willing to accept is if you/your country really needs to get access to resources this way, i.e. no other choice at all.)

    "But he is, nevertheless, the other, the stranger; and it is sufficient for his nature that he is, in a specially intense way, existentially something different and alien, so that in the extreme case conflicts with him are possible. These can neither be decided by a previously determined general norm nor by the judgment of a disinterested and therefore neutral third party."

    And that's such an overly emotional way of looking at things lol. Was this writer EIE or something, lol.

    Overly emotional: it's not even considered what kind of stuff is different and why and whether that is actually a problem. Sometimes yeah it can be. But no, I would never make a general concept out of this.

    Lol btw idk your opinions on this, this stuff just caught my eye, you don't have to enter into any discussion with me over it. I don't mind if you want to, though, ofc.


    I'm pretty okay with however all the digging and questioning goes lol as long as there's hopefully some answer. As for me when I stopped trying to pidgeonhole what I should believe or support into another person's framework and said "fuck it" it came as a huge relief and made a lot of topics a lot more fun. Whether that's Ti, Se, or some other damn thing I'm a-okay with it lol
    Oh, for me what seems to help is when I get the "other" logical framework, but I guess I do it the same way as you described it - stop temporarily to place my own opinions onto what the other person is saying (as a filter), though my own understanding still has to be used to be able to pick up theirs, so it has to be all-encompassing enough first - and yeah it actually can make things more fun sometimes. Except that I put my own opinions back pretty fast in the game and then if I just see the other pov as silly, then yeah not gonna stay engaged.

    But yeah, digging, questioning, all that is effortful so yeah there needs to be some goal for it


    lmao Nerd rants all day every day.



    Yeah I get that. I personally lean towards the ideas that can give me an example. An instantiation of X, Y, or Z class of something, which Gulenko seems to be able to do. Dunno about the other way.
    Ehm, yeah unless stuff is too abstract to illustrate with just a few examples and Gulenko can go off towards that far end too much in some cases

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Shitty Si like?
    I'm not organized, almost at all. All packing for travel for work is done around midnight the night before the trip. The "place" for most things tends to be where I left it. I take almost no notes either in study or in work tasks or document projects/tasks. It's a strain to remember to get a haircut every 3 weeks or to remember to do laundry. Generally shaving happens once I notice it feels like steel wool on my face. If I'm not meeting anyone I give a shit about (like a client or friend or family) I'm very content to wear the same shit several times in a row. My apartment is completely sparse with just a bed, dinner table, workout gear, bed, and a dresser being most of what wasn't already here. I can get a perfectly good sleep on the floor, and when I lived elsewhere for a year and a half I couldn't be bothered to buy a comforter so I just slept under sheets. The paperwork portion of my job is half of why I applied for a related but different position. Haven't been to a doctor in probably 10 years, either lmao

    Oh it could be more long-term concerns of humanity surviving due to limited resources unless we cooperate better about sorting out this issue. But yeah I don't expect that to happen fast.
    This is why we need to colonize other planets, so we can have more resources to keep fighting each other over resources

    I just see war as starting to stand in the way of progress at one point. I do think war is a necessity at this point (in the present) tho'.

    Again, I don't expect they would disappear all that fast even if we wanted to go towards this, it would be a longer term process.
    For sure, nothing about you so far gives me the impression of being some crazy pie-in-the-sky hippie lol. I can certainly see that wars can cause backwards progress or inhibit it (though that begs the definition of "progress"). Just as a general rule I view struggle as an animating element of people and peoples, and that too much comfort drives us crazy, and that war is an instance of extremely vital struggle.

    Mind elaborating on the bolded, i.e. why did you use this analogy?
    Just the mental image that came to mind. The federal government of the US in its current social circumstances is more or less hurriedly trying to just corral its various different internal groups with zero-sum conflicts of interest and prevent them from killing each other or bolting out of the fence. It's all they can do just to stop a stampede at the moment because socially in multiple difference instances America is on the hairy-edge of what Schmitt considers a revolutionary state (ie. subjects determine their own friend-enemy distinction irrespective of the sovereign/state).


    "Courage means to let oneself be nailed to the cross for one's cause. Courage means, in the last moment of life, to still show allegiance to the thought for which one stood and fell."

    I'm going to be cynical, nice way to brainwash people into going into war eh? Not saying it's not good to stand up for causes and fight for them, quite the opposite actually, but... why do we agree the cause is good? And why or when must one's life be given to it? Other than, e.g. in the case of war, another country attacking? (Or ok, the other example I'm willing to accept is if you/your country really needs to get access to resources this way, i.e. no other choice at all.)
    lol I'm prone to cynicism in many things so cynic away. To American ears "propaganda" carries a connotation of cynical media put out by people that don't believe it to manipulate the citizenry. If you had a different meaning plz correct me.

    If I didn't know much about Junger I'd probably this was propaganda, as well, but he was a veteran of WWI wounded while un-reluctantly following orders in the twilight of the war to try and take land from the Entente Powers. In the post-war years he was one of the few not writing depressive morality plays of reflection about the war, and was a big proponent of "Heroic Realism" in the post-war years.

    "why do we agree the cause is good?"

    I'm not necessarily sure agreement is implied, just the celebration of the commitment to follow something to its utmost ends. There are a lot of things I disagree with but that kind of commitment is still impressive. (eg. 3 Brazillians given a burial by Germans that resisted until they ran out of ammunition and then were shot in a bayonet charge LINK)

    "And why or when must one's life be given to it?"

    When the circumstances require, I would suppose. As for why, I'm inclined to something along the lines of John 15:13 LINK

    "But he is, nevertheless, the other, the stranger; and it is sufficient for his nature that he is, in a specially intense way, existentially something different and alien, so that in the extreme case conflicts with him are possible. These can neither be decided by a previously determined general norm nor by the judgment of a disinterested and therefore neutral third party."

    And that's such an overly emotional way of looking at things lol. Was this writer EIE or something, lol.
    Rofl he could be. I see no results for him in MBTI or socionics when I search google (just this thread comes up lol). He's almost certainly Beta quadra. I know he was a follower of an EIE, though.

    Overly emotional: it's not even considered what kind of stuff is different and why and whether that is actually a problem. Sometimes yeah it can be. But no, I would never make a general concept out of this.
    Lmao well just for clarity, it's from his book "The Concept of the Political" where the main thesis is to reduce the definition and function of a political community to its most fundamental and inescapable principle and necessities, the concept of the "political." This sounds Ti going for a core truth build upon to me, but I'll be curious what your take is. His tone may be EIE-seeking if he isn't one himself lol.

    Just a couple excerpts for the purpose of illustration more than to try and make any point
    schmitt3.png schmitt2.png

    Lol btw idk your opinions on this, this stuff just caught my eye, you don't have to enter into any discussion with me over it. I don't mind if you want to, though, ofc.
    lmao like I said some of this shit I could talk about all day long, so if I see a discussion offered I'm going to enter into one. Most often it's a question of if things get too uncomfortable or intolerable to my interlocutor.

    Oh, for me what seems to help is when I get the "other" logical framework, but I guess I do it the same way as you described it - stop temporarily to place my own opinions onto what the other person is saying (as a filter), though my own understanding still has to be used to be able to pick up theirs, so it has to be all-encompassing enough first - and yeah it actually can make things more fun sometimes. Except that I put my own opinions back pretty fast in the game and then if I just see the other pov as silly, then yeah not gonna stay engaged.

    But yeah, digging, questioning, all that is effortful so yeah there needs to be some goal for it
    Oh yeah if there's an acceptable framework that already exists pre-formed, by all means, gimme lol. Socionics is great and works as far as I can tell

    With political cliques, though, in my case it was more a wandering trying to find a good fit, and any attempt to try and conform to or adopt placed certain kinds of constrictions or burdens that just made it hard to "breath," so to speak. A lot of pretend or forced positions for the same of consistency with something I thought sounded nice and true, but ultimately weren't and weren't something that really resonated in me. Then I finally got fed up and stopped playing that game.

    Ehm, yeah unless stuff is too abstract to illustrate with just a few examples and Gulenko can go off towards that far end too much in some cases
    lmao I feel that. When things start to get into the really abstract and speculative my eyes start to glaze over and I start just skimming everything instead of really reading it.
    Last edited by Oppai Anschluss; 08-01-2018 at 02:06 PM.
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  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1INT Vault Dweller View Post
    I'm not organized, almost at all. All packing for travel for work is done around midnight the night before the trip. The "place" for most things tends to be where I left it. I take almost no notes either in study or in work tasks or document projects/tasks. It's a strain to remember to get a haircut every 3 weeks or to remember to do laundry. Generally shaving happens once I notice it feels like steel wool on my face. If I'm not meeting anyone I give a shit about (like a client or friend or family) I'm very content to wear the same shit several times in a row. My apartment is completely sparse with just a bed, dinner table, workout gear, bed, and a dresser being most of what wasn't already here. I can get a perfectly good sleep on the floor, and when I lived elsewhere for a year and a half I couldn't be bothered to buy a comforter so I just slept under sheets. The paperwork portion of my job is half of why I applied for a related but different position. Haven't been to a doctor in probably 10 years, either lmao
    Lol sp-last chaos... Looks like you do have strong Si if you don't actually feel stressed out by any of this bc that means you are able to deal with your bodily sensations without a problem.

    I relate to some of this btw but I'm not like this THIS much. Maybe I'm sx/sp over sx/so after all...

    It's also ofc that you are a guy, so you'll be less tidy than women about some of this stuff lol.

    I'm personally not housewife material either but still, a tiny bit more focused on these matters than you.

    But I beat you at chaos at one point, I pack for travel the absolute last minute.

    And I can sleep on the floor just fine too yeah, or in broad daylight etc. I attribute that to good Si in my case because I just know how to adjust my body with the circumstances + the circumstances too ofc if needed.


    This is why we need to colonize other planets, so we can have more resources to keep fighting each other over resources
    Well that's an option too but I prefer to stick to more realistic scenarios lol


    For sure, nothing about you so far gives me the impression of being some crazy pie-in-the-sky hippie lol. I can certainly see that wars can cause backwards progress or inhibit it (though that begs the definition of "progress"). Just as a general rule I view struggle as an animating element of people and peoples, and that too much comfort drives us crazy, and that war is an instance of extremely vital struggle.
    The definition of progress is another long and deep topic.

    Yeah, fighting, it's animating and whatnot, and I think we deeply agree on that part again lol, but I prefer it to have a truly good point if it's really about giving a lot for something, such as my life, and it should be the best solution as well. If it's just about finding a way to fight, I can see other ways to do that than doing it in war.



    Just the mental image that came to mind. The federal government of the US in its current social circumstances is more or less hurriedly trying to just corral its various different internal groups with zero-sum conflicts of interest and prevent them from killing each other or bolting out of the fence. It's all they can do just to stop a stampede at the moment because socially in multiple difference instances America is on the hairy-edge of what Schmitt considers a revolutionary state (ie. subjects determine their own friend-enemy distinction irrespective of the sovereign/state).
    America in revolution, that was an interesting image for sure. Is it really that close to being that?


    lol I'm prone to cynicism in many things so cynic away.



    To American ears "propaganda" carries a connotation of cynical media put out by people that don't believe it to manipulate the citizenry. If you had a different meaning plz correct me.
    Oh no, we have that connotation for it here too, possibly even stronger.


    If I didn't know much about Junger I'd probably this was propaganda, as well, but he was a veteran of WWI wounded while un-reluctantly following orders in the twilight of the war to try and take land from the Entente Powers. In the post-war years he was one of the few not writing depressive morality plays of reflection about the war, and was a big proponent of "Heroic Realism" in the post-war years.
    Interesting


    "why do we agree the cause is good?"

    I'm not necessarily sure agreement is implied, just the celebration of the commitment to follow something to its utmost ends. There are a lot of things I disagree with but that kind of commitment is still impressive. (eg. 3 Brazillians given a burial by Germans that resisted until they ran out of ammunition and then were shot in a bayonet charge LINK)

    "And why or when must one's life be given to it?"

    When the circumstances require, I would suppose. As for why, I'm inclined to something along the lines of John 15:13 LINK
    Yeah I was asking rhetorical questions Your commitment orientation is very Ni HA btw in the way you put it, idk why you didn't relate to the descriptions

    Anyway yes I find commitment impressive too like that. I just do not want it to go over the other extreme with it becoming a brainwashing issue when the goal is not actually all that good or sensible or even worse than that.

    So for example for the example of the Brazilians, yeah, you can give a good statement by that kind of commitment, but I can't say I would necessarily prioritize making that statement over other goals if I have them in life, it depends if the other goals I find even better. (And yes they can still be goals for other people too, so it's not simply about being 100% self-centred, not at all.)

    The last link of yours there, yeah, I was gonna call it a touchy-feely link lol, so anyway sure that's a valid thing too. But do it in a way that it really ends up at the best possible results (i.e. best of all implementable ones) overall.


    Rofl he could be. I see no results for him in MBTI or socionics when I search google (just this thread comes up lol). He's almost certainly Beta quadra. I know he was a follower of an EIE, though.

    Lmao well just for clarity, it's from his book "The Concept of the Political" where the main thesis is to reduce the definition and function of a political community to its most fundamental and inescapable principle and necessities, the concept of the "political." This sounds Ti going for a core truth build upon to me, but I'll be curious what your take is. His tone may be EIE-seeking if he isn't one himself lol.
    Lol I didn't really think about the type, just that bit seemed like it. I read the texts you posted here, I think all I can say is just that the writer is definitely a Ti/Fe type and yeah could be "EIE seeking tone" or "Fe seeking tone". If it really was about elaborating on fundamental principles, that's either Ti or Ni but it does sound more Ti than anything.



    lmao like I said some of this shit I could talk about all day long, so if I see a discussion offered I'm going to enter into one. Most often it's a question of if things get too uncomfortable or intolerable to my interlocutor.


    I don't think it'd ever get too "uncomfortable or intolerable" for me lol


    Oh yeah if there's an acceptable framework that already exists pre-formed, by all means, gimme lol. Socionics is great and works as far as I can tell
    It's actually weird with Socionics

    I only find it an acceptable framework for myself if I integrate it with some other contexts of systems but then yeah it seems to really offer things in terms of what its model is about that I have not seen anywhere else and that says a lot because I majored in cognitive psychology so I do have a background somewhat in other psychology theories.


    With political cliques, though, in my case it was more a wandering trying to find a good fit, and any attempt to try and conform to or adopt placed certain kinds of constrictions or burdens that just made it hard to "breath," so to speak. A lot of pretend or forced positions for the same of consistency with something I thought sounded nice and true, but ultimately weren't and weren't something that really resonated in me. Then I finally got fed up and stopped playing that game.
    Lol again that's so familiar to me, about the wandering part. Uhm, I was never strongly part of any "cliques", but otherwise yeah, nothing really made sense beyond a point. (I also didn't worry about constrictions or burdens but that's beside the point, just being precise here lol.)


    mao I feel that. When things start to get into the really abstract and speculative my eyes start to glaze over and I start just skimming everything instead of really reading it.
    Yeah, since we are in your type thread, I'll say that that pretty much excludes N types (as for the LIE suggestion you asked about).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Lol sp-last chaos... Looks like you do have strong Si if you don't actually feel stressed out by any of this bc that means you are able to deal with your bodily sensations without a problem.

    I relate to some of this btw but I'm not like this THIS much. Maybe I'm sx/sp over sx/so after all...
    lmao You may just be better at being an adult than I am. If that explains it, then awesome, because so many of the strong-Si type descriptions I saw sound all orderly, and then I look at the mess around me like "well shit..."

    It's also ofc that you are a guy, so you'll be less tidy than women about some of this stuff lol.

    I'm personally not housewife material either but still, a tiny bit more focused on these matters than you.
    lol any amount more focused on these things than me is an improvement. I feel like if an SEI wound up married to me she'd probably turn homicidal inside of a month.

    But I beat you at chaos at one point, I pack for travel the absolute last minute.
    lmao you're a braver woman than I. The only time I stress this kind of thing is when I start trying to remember if I'm forgetting anything I need at a client, or might be leaving in a hotel room, so I end up going over it all like 3-4 times and still end up forgetting something in the hotel 25% of the time.

    And I can sleep on the floor just fine too yeah, or in broad daylight etc. I attribute that to good Si in my case because I just know how to adjust my body with the circumstances + the circumstances too ofc if needed.
    So that's what strong unconscious Si without primary SP looks like lol. I had been associating it with really having your shit together and making all of your spaces homey and comfy as they can be.

    Well that's an option too but I prefer to stick to more realistic scenarios lol
    Psh, "realistic." Have fun with that while I'm gonna be killing the other team in Martian resource wars, sucker

    The definition of progress is another long and deep topic.

    Yeah, fighting, it's animating and whatnot, and I think we deeply agree on that part again lol, but I prefer it to have a truly good point if it's really about giving a lot for something, such as my life, and it should be the best solution as well. If it's just about finding a way to fight, I can see other ways to do that than doing it in war.
    I can see that, absolutely, and I don't really disagree lol. I might just have a smaller scope in what I require for "a truly good point." "For my people" has always been enough of a truly good point for me. I wouldn't endorse fighting/war for its own sake, but even the shittiest wars yield some of the most inspiring expressions or demonstrations of φιλία and passion.

    America in revolution, that was an interesting image for sure. Is it really that close to being that?
    In a Schmitt-ian sense, yes, unfortunately. When people start acting on it, I don't know, because it's been sitting at a low boil for about 8 years, now. 2024 will be an interesting year because that's Trump's term limit hits, and the Left has been getting extremely rabidly racialized and illiberal in their desires. The ability for dissent to subsist is no longer acceptable to them, and they're getting more violent about it.

    Yeah I was asking rhetorical questions Your commitment orientation is very Ni HA btw in the way you put it, idk why you didn't relate to the descriptions
    Oh cool lol that was an aspect that hadn't occurred to me. I definitely did relate to it, but I also related to the description of suggestive Ni from your link so I was on the fence. I'll chalk that up to being hard to make finer distinctions between things you're bad at. My concept of Ni was focused on explicit consistency and the "time" orientation that keeps coming up in other descriptions

    Anyway yes I find commitment impressive too like that. I just do not want it to go over the other extreme with it becoming a brainwashing issue when the goal is not actually all that good or sensible or even worse than that.

    So for example for the example of the Brazilians, yeah, you can give a good statement by that kind of commitment, but I can't say I would necessarily prioritize making that statement over other goals if I have them in life, it depends if the other goals I find even better. (And yes they can still be goals for other people too, so it's not simply about being 100% self-centred, not at all.)
    Yeah absolutely. A unity of a good cause and total commitment would be the ideal without a doubt.

    The last link of yours there, yeah, I was gonna call it a touchy-feely link lol, so anyway sure that's a valid thing too. But do it in a way that it really ends up at the best possible results (i.e. best of all implementable ones) overall.
    lol yup I agree again with only a slight alteration, I'm okay with "good enough" results =P. I think our biggest difference is really just on where that line is drawn and maybe a bit of an aesthetic difference. You're much more sensible and pragmatic about this question where I'm very much a romantic about it .


    Lol I didn't really think about the type, just that bit seemed like it. I read the texts you posted here, I think all I can say is just that the writer is definitely a Ti/Fe type and yeah could be "EIE seeking tone" or "Fe seeking tone". If it really was about elaborating on fundamental principles, that's either Ti or Ni but it does sound more Ti than anything.
    Yeah I only know his writings as a philosopher (nothing personal or candid) so I doubt I could say more than that he's a Beta and maybe ST. I just know that most of his conclusions I came to on my own, independently, in less thorough and clear language. Eventually I read some of his stuff and my reaction was "oh my God. I'm home!" lol

    I don't think it'd ever get too "uncomfortable or intolerable" for me lol
    Challenge accepted lol


    It's actually weird with Socionics

    I only find it an acceptable framework for myself if I integrate it with some other contexts of systems but then yeah it seems to really offer things in terms of what its model is about that I have not seen anywhere else and that says a lot because I majored in cognitive psychology so I do have a background somewhat in other psychology theories.
    Nice, you probably have some pretty good criticisms as well beyond some of the peripheral speculative stuff. The intertype relation stuff strikes me as the most interesting (go figure, if sx/so), since it's more applicable and experiential than anything in MBTI which is basically just "Okay, you're an INFP. I guess you like to do magic mushrooms, walk around barefoot, and skip shaving your armpits" or "you're an INTJ, so you're a wannabe James Bond villain with short-man syndrome."


    Lol again that's so familiar to me, about the wandering part. Uhm, I was never strongly part of any "cliques", but otherwise yeah, nothing really made sense beyond a point. (I also didn't worry about constrictions or burdens but that's beside the point, just being precise here lol.)
    Hey be as precise as you like lol it's cool that someone else can relate to a good about of this stuff for once


    Yeah, since we are in your type thread, I'll say that that pretty much excludes N types (as for the LIE suggestion you asked about).
    Which is hysterical because for basically any MBTI forum "smart" default just means "NT" lmao and of course "deep" means "NF"
    Last edited by Oppai Anschluss; 08-03-2018 at 03:22 AM.
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    (Sorry I did not have time for a couple of days)


    Quote Originally Posted by 1INT Vault Dweller View Post
    lmao You may just be better at being an adult than I am. If that explains it, then awesome, because so many of the strong-Si type descriptions I saw sound all orderly, and then I look at the mess around me like "well shit..."

    lol any amount more focused on these things than me is an improvement. I feel like if an SEI wound up married to me she'd probably turn homicidal inside of a month.
    Lol, right.


    lmao you're a braver woman than I. The only time I stress this kind of thing is when I start trying to remember if I'm forgetting anything I need at a client, or might be leaving in a hotel room, so I end up going over it all like 3-4 times and still end up forgetting something in the hotel 25% of the time.
    Ahh it doesn't need that much courage =) I have a few little tricks as methods to ensure I don't forget stuff


    So that's what strong unconscious Si without primary SP looks like lol. I had been associating it with really having your shit together and making all of your spaces homey and comfy as they can be.
    Yep that's what it looks like =P


    Psh, "realistic." Have fun with that while I'm gonna be killing the other team in Martian resource wars, sucker
    Yeah I'm having fun in actual tangible reality


    I can see that, absolutely, and I don't really disagree lol. I might just have a smaller scope in what I require for "a truly good point." "For my people" has always been enough of a truly good point for me. I wouldn't endorse fighting/war for its own sake, but even the shittiest wars yield some of the most inspiring expressions or demonstrations of φιλία and passion.
    I see, I seem a bit less strongly motivated by this umm, Fe stuff? I mean I can be, but if I see no good / constructive end result then I lose interest. That for me is true in general too.


    In a Schmitt-ian sense, yes, unfortunately. When people start acting on it, I don't know, because it's been sitting at a low boil for about 8 years, now. 2024 will be an interesting year because that's Trump's term limit hits, and the Left has been getting extremely rabidly racialized and illiberal in their desires. The ability for dissent to subsist is no longer acceptable to them, and they're getting more violent about it.
    Gotcha...


    Oh cool lol that was an aspect that hadn't occurred to me. I definitely did relate to it, but I also related to the description of suggestive Ni from your link so I was on the fence. I'll chalk that up to being hard to make finer distinctions between things you're bad at. My concept of Ni was focused on explicit consistency and the "time" orientation that keeps coming up in other descriptions
    Yeah, it's harder to differentiate between similarly strong or similarly weak functions. For me too I related to both descs both for HA/DS functions (Ni/Fe) originally and it took a while (more self-observation etc) before I could see which one really fit me more consistently and especially, more concretely.


    Yeah absolutely. A unity of a good cause and total commitment would be the ideal without a doubt.




    lol yup I agree again with only a slight alteration, I'm okay with "good enough" results =P. I think our biggest difference is really just on where that line is drawn and maybe a bit of an aesthetic difference. You're much more sensible and pragmatic about this question where I'm very much a romantic about it .
    Yeah, well "implementable" means it works in practice so in that sense it's also just "good enough"... but yes you are more, um romantic about it. Maybe the age difference


    Yeah I only know his writings as a philosopher (nothing personal or candid) so I doubt I could say more than that he's a Beta and maybe ST. I just know that most of his conclusions I came to on my own, independently, in less thorough and clear language. Eventually I read some of his stuff and my reaction was "oh my God. I'm home!" lol
    Hm yeha interesting, sorry no idea on typing still though.


    Challenge accepted lol




    Nice, you probably have some pretty good criticisms as well beyond some of the peripheral speculative stuff. The intertype relation stuff strikes me as the most interesting (go figure, if sx/so), since it's more applicable and experiential than anything in MBTI which is basically just "Okay, you're an INFP. I guess you like to do magic mushrooms, walk around barefoot, and skip shaving your armpits" or "you're an INTJ, so you're a wannabe James Bond villain with short-man syndrome."
    Yeah, criticisms I do have of the speculative stuff.

    As for intertype relations, I think most of it is speculative nuance too, lol, the most basic relations seem robust enough tho' (duality, conflictor/superego, maybe the other intraquadra stuff too).


    Hey be as precise as you like lol it's cool that someone else can relate to a good about of this stuff for once



    Which is hysterical because for basically any MBTI forum "smart" default just means "NT" lmao and of course "deep" means "NF"
    For the stereotypical "understanding" of it yeah

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    Oof, sorry about that slow response. Been traveling for work for the last month and spending a lot of time doing some deep soul-searching.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    (Sorry I did not have time for a couple of days)
    No sweat lol. My work is getting into its busy season so I'll be pretty slow for the next few months, as well, most likely.

    Yeah I'm having fun in actual tangible reality
    Give it time and tangible reality will catch up with me lmao

    I see, I seem a bit less strongly motivated by this umm, Fe stuff? I mean I can be, but if I see no good / constructive end result then I lose interest. That for me is true in general too.
    Yeah, I'm not so sure it's typology related, and more an effect of where I am personally. Or maybe those are one and the same. Who knows lol

    Yeah, it's harder to differentiate between similarly strong or similarly weak functions. For me too I related to both descs both for HA/DS functions (Ni/Fe) originally and it took a while (more self-observation etc) before I could see which one really fit me more consistently and especially, more concretely.
    That makes a lot of sense. All things in due time.

    Yeah, well "implementable" means it works in practice so in that sense it's also just "good enough"... but yes you are more, um romantic about it. Maybe the age difference
    lol doubtless that's true, also maybe partly the gender difference.

    Yeah, criticisms I do have of the speculative stuff.

    As for intertype relations, I think most of it is speculative nuance too, lol, the most basic relations seem robust enough tho' (duality, conflictor/superego, maybe the other intraquadra stuff too).
    Yeah the conflictor & superego definitely seem extremely on the money as far as I can tell. Explains a great deal about some past relationships that turned extremely sour very quickly lol

    For the stereotypical "understanding" of it yeah
    lol well I'm content to be a big ol' "shallow" and "dumb" ST lmao. I have about a billion times more fun than the self-satisfied "deep" Deltas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oppai Anschluss View Post
    Oof, sorry about that slow response. Been traveling for work for the last month and spending a lot of time doing some deep soul-searching.
    Slowest ever response here. I'm still busy too, will be busy for a long time actually, but got a little time this evening.



    Yeah, I'm not so sure it's typology related, and more an effect of where I am personally. Or maybe those are one and the same. Who knows lol
    Maybe the E6?



    Yeah the conflictor & superego definitely seem extremely on the money as far as I can tell. Explains a great deal about some past relationships that turned extremely sour very quickly lol
    Ahem, EII or IEE?


    I just want to add, I still have the same opinions as before about how I see you, but if you are sure on your new typing, that's all cool by me, too. So I'm not going to bring that up, unless you want to analyse anything about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Slowest ever response here. I'm still busy too, will be busy for a long time actually, but got a little time this evening.
    lmao she lives. That's no worries from me, as I can sympathize after a couple months of 70 hour weeks and travel.

    Maybe the E6?
    Or Fe Hidden Agenda? rofl Hell if I know with some of these things

    Ahem, EII or IEE?
    I seem to clash the hardest and fastest with EIIs, at least the women. A lot of "you can't say that" and "that's mean." I had a friend for a while that typed INFJ in MBTI that I'm relatively certain is an EII and crass jokes, swearing, and teasing never once sat right for her and we got into a LOT of very heated fights about it until we just parted ways because it was too much fucking stress for me to handle.

    I just want to add, I still have the same opinions as before about how I see you, but if you are sure on your new typing, that's all cool by me, too. So I'm not going to bring that up, unless you want to analyse anything about it.
    Hey, I'm down for any observations you got lol. I have very little concept of how I come across to others and you have been at this longer than me. By and large I operate by trying to make a catalogue of impressions I get from identified types or clear examples of functions/IEs to which I compare and contrast other things. So if "this feels like that" or "this doesn't vibe like that in this way" is just how I try to color things or feel them out through negative space.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oppai Anschluss View Post
    lmao she lives. That's no worries from me, as I can sympathize after a couple months of 70 hour weeks and travel.]
    Nice, any particular goal with that amount of workaholism?


    Or Fe Hidden Agenda? rofl Hell if I know with some of these things



    I seem to clash the hardest and fastest with EIIs, at least the women. A lot of "you can't say that" and "that's mean." I had a friend for a while that typed INFJ in MBTI that I'm relatively certain is an EII and crass jokes, swearing, and teasing never once sat right for her and we got into a LOT of very heated fights about it until we just parted ways because it was too much fucking stress for me to handle.
    Hmm, I've yet to see EIIs (the ones I've known) get into very heated fights lol, do you mean she actually got loud and had the actual stamina to tolerate the fighting? Without breaking down eventually crying or sulking lol

    I do have a problem with some EIIs myself, but it's entirely different - their guilt trippy or otherwise really negative and heavy Fi just gets traumatic lol.

    (I mean heavy to me. They still sound really light otherwise and not at all heavy in a physical way, it's more emotional to me. I have way less trouble with the Fi of ESIs in comparison)

    And it doesn't even have to be criticism towards me is the fun thing.


    Hey, I'm down for any observations you got lol. I have very little concept of how I come across to others and you have been at this longer than me. By and large I operate by trying to make a catalogue of impressions I get from identified types or clear examples of functions/IEs to which I compare and contrast other things. So if "this feels like that" or "this doesn't vibe like that in this way" is just how I try to color things or feel them out through negative space.
    OK, sure, if I see anything that looks like it relates to type, I'll let you know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Nice, any particular goal with that amount of workaholism?
    lol apart from survival I was trying to meet my assigned charge hour goal for the year that my consultancy assigns to each of us. Our slow season is in the beginning of the year so almost immediately we're all at a deficit and have to play catch up being double or triple-booked for the last 4 months.

    It helped pass the time though. Been going through a job application that's taken going on a full year now with a hell of a lot of waiting.


    Oi lmao speak up if you have an opinion


    Hmm, I've yet to see EIIs (the ones I've known) get into very heated fights lol, do you mean she actually got loud and had the actual stamina to tolerate the fighting?
    loud was only at her most hysterical after things had escalated (or disintegrated?) into theatrics. Prior to that it was always a lot of silent treatment, judgementally excusing herself from a chat, passive aggressive quips, text messages that would include a semi-subtle barb that she both did and didn't want a response to. Vexing shit until I got tired or she got out of control.

    I do have a problem with some EIIs myself, but it's entirely different - their guilt trippy or otherwise really negative and heavy Fi just gets traumatic lol.
    Oooooooh yeah. Her default mode seemed like ethical pressuring and it was tiring to say the least.


    OK, sure, if I see anything that looks like it relates to type, I'll let you know.
    sweet lol I'll keep an eye out
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oppai Anschluss View Post
    lol apart from survival I was trying to meet my assigned charge hour goal for the year that my consultancy assigns to each of us. Our slow season is in the beginning of the year so almost immediately we're all at a deficit and have to play catch up being double or triple-booked for the last 4 months.

    It helped pass the time though. Been going through a job application that's taken going on a full year now with a hell of a lot of waiting.



    Oi lmao speak up if you have an opinion
    Lol not anything definite enough beyond "oh E6 + Fe together kind of clicks". HA or not, it's a good question how the E6 affects things in that area: i.e. would it mean more openness emotionally.


    loud was only at her most hysterical after things had escalated (or disintegrated?) into theatrics. Prior to that it was always a lot of silent treatment, judgementally excusing herself from a chat, passive aggressive quips, text messages that would include a semi-subtle barb that she both did and didn't want a response to. Vexing shit until I got tired or she got out of control.
    Ooh, ok I've known that kind of EII too - I once asked her directly to do something (wasn't even for me, was for the sake of someone else), and the way she responded lol, sounds like this one. I ended up never talking to her again.


    Oooooooh yeah. Her default mode seemed like ethical pressuring and it was tiring to say the least.
    How about when they just really open up to you about their deep needlessly guilty or other crappy negative feelz to you?

    (I hope no EII is reading this thread now.)


    sweet lol I'll keep an eye out

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Lol not anything definite enough beyond "oh E6 + Fe together kind of clicks". HA or not, it's a good question how the E6 affects things in that area: i.e. would it mean more openness emotionally.
    He's Enneagram 6 + Sx/So, Counterphobic. Thus, he's very selective. He can absorb Fe energy in short bursts and feel energized for a period of time, but in terms of openness in an intimacy or "willing to share emotions" sense, that's reserved for very specific friends.

    I'll allow him to speak for himself of course, but over the past half year we've learned a great deal more about Socionics - Functional Dimensionality, Bukalov's Signage, Reinen's Dichotomies, more stuff on IR, Functional Semantics, and just generally improved on IE placement Model A understanding. The gist is that Ni suggestive, Fi PoLR, Fe HA, Si ignoring, and so forth all became clear (particularly Fi PoLR and Ni Suggestive).

    I was also personally acquainted with the EII in question. She was passive aggressive, ethically pressuring, cold-shouldering (silent treatment), and typically left in a huff and puff, always finger waving and policing him. As Oppai said, she typed INFJ in MBTI, yet when the three of us were together, her and I were starkly different, only superficially similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post



    Lol not anything definite enough beyond "oh E6 + Fe together kind of clicks". HA or not, it's a good question how the E6 affects things in that area: i.e. would it mean more openness emotionally.
    lol awesome. I still need to read more enneagram. Still basically just going on what 3 people on here have said for the most part.

    Ooh, ok I've known that kind of EII too - I once asked her directly to do something (wasn't even for me, was for the sake of someone else), and the way she responded lol, sounds like this one. I ended up never talking to her again.
    Yeah...I haven't spoken to her in going on 4 years. I wish her well and she's a kind person, but I know that if I reconnected with her shit would start flaring up almost immediately again. oil and vinegar, except with a lot of hurtful remarks thrown in.

    How about when they just really open up to you about their deep needlessly guilty or other crappy negative feelz to you?

    (I hope no EII is reading this thread now.)
    rofl thinking about it made my ass clench and made me squirm like someone dropped something gross down the back of my shirt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    He's Enneagram 6 + Sx/So, Counterphobic. Thus, he's very selective. He can absorb Fe energy in short bursts and feel energized for a period of time, but in terms of openness in an intimacy or "willing to share emotions" sense, that's reserved for very specific friends.

    I'll allow him to speak for himself of course, but over the past half year we've learned a great deal more about Socionics - Functional Dimensionality, Bukalov's Signage, Reinen's Dichotomies, more stuff on IR, Functional Semantics, and just generally improved on IE placement Model A understanding. The gist is that Ni suggestive, Fi PoLR, Fe HA, Si ignoring, and so forth all became clear (particularly Fi PoLR and Ni Suggestive).

    I was also personally acquainted with the EII in question. She was passive aggressive, ethically pressuring, cold-shouldering (silent treatment), and typically left in a huff and puff, always finger waving and policing him. As Oppai said, she typed INFJ in MBTI, yet when the three of us were together, her and I were starkly different, only superficially similar.
    Ah, yeah like I said I know that kind of EII, the one I'm thinking of actually knew MBTI and typed as INFJ, no joke.

    As for the Fe part, I'm much the same way like you described that. I do see that as Fe dual seeking rather than Fe HA, really, but that's my view of things. To explain, the bits on the short bursts and on being low on openness to share that's what I see as having lower emotional energy than if Fe was the Mobilising function, so fitting Dual seeking more (for both aspects), and introversion (for the latter aspect). As far as the latter relates to Fe information specifically, I mean (rather than just Fi).

    Where I mentioned E6 I meant he still has a bit more openness compared to me and I thought that can be chalked up to E6. Maybe it's also the long-term close and intense friendship with you as an Fe ego as well

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