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    Default How would an Fi person react?

    I feel that I overreacted to something my LSE dad said, and I am wondering if there is a Fi/Fe divide in reacting to what he said. I’m genuinely curious about the socionics of this, and am not just looking for reassurance etc.

    “You are behind schedule on dating - If you had siblings, they could share the responsibility of having grandchildren, but unfortunately since you are an only child it is your responsibility. You’re a member of this family. You can’t just think about yourself.

    Anyway, I don’t think my dad’s views make him a bad person - just retrograde - but would an Fi person have had a less intense reaction? How would you have countered it? To me, it is not ok to make someone feel bad about themselves in this way. But he didn’t seem like he was trying to harm - he was even in a good mood.

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    This might be the asshole part of being a Te-dom with 1D Fi.

    I've said the same thing to my SLI son. He does not respond well to it. I'm not saying it to be mean, I'm just saying it because I feel that the only reason I'm on this planet is to propagate my genes, and he's not holding up a 4.5 billion-year-old tradition.

    This may make me appear to be a totally unfeeling asshole, but it is one of my fundamental values and it takes precedence over everything else. Why the hell am I stacking up money if not to advantage my offspring?

    He's showing no interest in having kids (or getting married, for that matter), and I'm strongly considering starting another family. One with lots of kids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This might be the asshole part of being a Te-dom with 1D Fi.

    I've said the same thing to my SLI son. He does not respond well to it. I'm not saying it to be mean, I'm just saying it because I feel that the only reason I'm on this planet is to propagate my genes, and he's not holding up a 4.5 billion-year-old tradition.

    This may make me appear to be a totally unfeeling asshole, but it is one of my fundamental values and it takes precedence over everything else. Why the hell am I stacking up money if not to advantage my offspring?

    He's showing no interest in having kids (or getting married, for that matter), and I'm strongly considering starting another family. One with lots of kids.
    its funny because I feel like my parents have a similar point of view, but at the same time they continually talk and act as if they will in under no circumstances ever help me with their money, and its precisely that doubt about their willingness to get behind me, should I ever need it (which has pervaded their entire upbringing strategy from day 1), that makes me distance myself from them to the point where I don't care at all about their continual effort to accumulate an inheritance. the point for me is, if we don't have a mutually supportive relationship now, its like they're living in a future that neither of us will experience together. and if we never come together, at any point, but rather pass eachother in time, through this future exchange, which is never solidified in any moment, but continually disjoined, then there is no actual relationship... it has the character of them playing the relationship like a stock option, wanting a return now at the expense of the present, all in the name of a future, that because of the failure of the parent child relationship, may never come to pass or be anything like it could be. essentially they undermine their kids self esteem and well being and then say, when it no longer matters (when the child is past mid life and the parent is dead) "here is your reward." its basically killed everything valuable in exchange for a token that lacks all intrinsic value. from my point of view, they're entirely indistinguishable from a %100 selfish person with no kids, because the "gift" transfers only and precisely at the moment they stop caring about it, i.e.: when they're dead. and yet the relationship is seen as somehow supposed to be here and now, and yet it is no relationship, because there is no mutual support. it is a sleight of hand, one generation perpetuates on another, further compounded by the general plundering of the economy (although not all are guilty of this of course). i would rather inheritance did not exist at all, and parents genuinely cared for their children in the present, then filter it through some kind of abstract medium, because how are children, when they need to understand care the most, i.e.: when they don't understand economic concepts, and are young, when their personality forms, supposed to recognize the game their parents are playing and appreciate it (for whatever its worth, if anything)... it undermines the parent/child relationship right at the root, and the inheritance doesn't heal the scars caused at that early stage. it in fact causes them and it bleeds over not into just the parent child relationship but all their relationships, potentially killing them right then and there, although the effect on the body is not seen until it manifests in mental illness and suicide years later. and then people wonder why depression is at an all time high, why "kids these days" are so weak, its because we exchanged something real for a scam and you can't run a life on that without some kind of blowback proportional to the misdeed. the strength of those children will be to right this wrong cultural orientation toward life through hook or by crook, and suicide is voting with your life

    replacing the messed up relationship by simply creating new humans is also perverse. it treats them as interchangeable instrumentalities, which is why there is no relationship to begin with. you talk about children's duties to you, but only attach your duties to them at the moment it no longer matters; this disjunction in time is basically a scam. if you want to stop piling up money, then stop, but don't unilateraly foist this sort of arrangement on kids who had no choice in being born and who their parents were. you may have really messed them up and your solution is to somehow simply repeat the same process expecting a different outcome and the collateral be damned, and for what? the truly valuable thing, which is the humans, seems to be overlooked entirely in the perpetuation of this meaningless scheme for its own sake. I am not trying to be high and mighty about this, I am profoundly sad that humanity does this to itself, because no one wins, despite how even the "power holders" regard themselves, they are only repressing that side of them that wants this (genuine loving relations) more than anything too
    Last edited by Bertrand; 07-04-2018 at 06:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    its funny because I feel like my parents have a similar point of view, but at the same time they continually talk and act as if they will in under no circumstances ever help me with their money, and its precisely that doubt about their willingness to get behind me, should I ever need it (which has pervaded their entire upbringing strategy from day 1), that makes me distance myself from them to the point where I don't care at all about their continual effort to accumulate an inheritance. the point for me is, if we don't have a mutually supportive relationship now, its like they're living in a future that neither of us will experience together. and if we never come together, at any point, but rather pass eachother in time, through this future exchange, which is never solidified in any moment, but continually disjoined, then there is no actual relationship... it has the character of them playing the relationship like a stock option, wanting a return now at the expense of the present, all in the name of a future, that because of the failure of the parent child relationship, may never come to pass or be anything like it could be. essentially they undermine their kids self esteem and well being and then say, when it no longer matters (when the child is past mid life and the parent is dead) "here is your reward." its basically killed everything valuable in exchange for a token that lacks all intrinsic value. from my point of view, they're entirely indistinguishable from a %100 selfish person with no kids, because the "gift" transfers only and precisely at the moment they stop caring about it, i.e.: when they're dead. and yet the relationship is seen as somehow supposed to be here and now, and yet it is no relationship, because there is no mutual support. it is a sleight of hand, one generation perpetuates on another, further compounded by the general plundering of the economy (although not all are guilty of this of course). i would rather inheritance did not exist at all, and parents genuinely cared for their children in the present, then filter it through some kind of abstract medium, because how are children, when they need to understand care the most, i.e.: when they don't understand economic concepts, and are young, when their personality forms, supposed to recognize the game their parents are playing and appreciate it (for whatever its worth, if anything)... it undermines the parent/child relationship right at the root, and the inheritance doesn't heal the scars caused at that early stage. it in fact causes them and it bleeds over not into just the parent child relationship but all their relationships, potentially killing them right then and there, although the effect on the body is not seen until it manifests in mental illness and suicide years later. and then people wonder why depression is at an all time high, why "kids these days" are so weak, its because we exchanged something real for a scam and you can't run a life on that without some kind of blowback proportional to the misdeed. the strength of those children will be to right this wrong cultural orientation toward life through hook or by crook, and suicide is voting with your life
    oo
    I feel for you man, that's a fucked up and a shitty cross to bare. Living outside of the present, breathing, moment, especially with your adult children, is living inside the hologram. Life on the holodeck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This might be the asshole part of being a Te-dom with 1D Fi.

    I've said the same thing to my SLI son. He does not respond well to it. I'm not saying it to be mean, I'm just saying it because I feel that the only reason I'm on this planet is to propagate my genes, and he's not holding up a 4.5 billion-year-old tradition.

    This may make me appear to be a totally unfeeling asshole, but it is one of my fundamental values and it takes precedence over everything else. Why the hell am I stacking up money if not to advantage my offspring?

    He's showing no interest in having kids (or getting married, for that matter), and I'm strongly considering starting another family. One with lots of kids.
    Even if life deals me a bad hand of cards and I'm depressed, I don't feel it is up to someone else to fulfill my wishes. I put in a lot of effort to take care of myself, and I often feel guilty about pressuring others.

    Nor do I agree that it is selfish to not wish to have children, although I've always wanted children. I was depressed for many years and am just feeling better, and I was heartbroken for a while too, so it felt odd to be told that I'm "behind." However that part's not such a big deal.

    IMO kids can't fulfill parents' needs b/c they are a wildcard. Parents can't always fulfill children's needs either. You provide them with what you can and hope that they have the capabilities, afterwards, to shape for themselves the life that they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ......... the only reason I'm on this planet is to propagate my genes, and he's not holding up a 4.5 billion-year-old tradition.......
    Cognitive ability of males is inherited entirely from their mothers and males only pass their mother's abilities to their daughters. In a sense, males have little to do with adding to the collective on which types are built; they merely provide a vehicle for genetic diversification of female intellect - a life support systems for a penis. Therefore, having another family will serve to pass on another woman's processing capability.....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Cognitive ability of males is inherited entirely from their mothers and males only pass their mother's abilities to their daughters. In a sense, males have little to do with adding to the collective on which types are built; they merely provide a vehicle for genetic diversification of female intellect - a life support systems for a penis. Therefore, having another family will serve to pass on another woman's processing capability.....

    a.k.a. I/O
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    darn.....and I was hoping that @Adam Strange would not have seen it.......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    darn.....and I was hoping that @Adam Strange would not have seen it.......

    a.k.a. I/O
    But apart from a Forbes article, on the face of it a statement like males get all their cog ability from their mothers sounds wrong. Inheritance is more complex than that, and cognition is extremely complex.
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    My children are not my property. They belong to themselves, and my only concern if they don’t have kids would be whether they’ll regret not having them. Not something I’d be in a better position than them to judge.
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    My reaction to a LSE Dad who says this: "umm, I do what I want to do with my life...the exact same thing you do with yours. How about we check the planks in our own eyes first. And not disrespect me by making assumptions about my dating life." ect ect.

    PS parents and old people suck, like I;ve been saying this here for years. They don't change and are often miserable. You just have to roll your eyes and bit your tongue..I got to do the same thing.

    I vote parents go on trippy mushroom trips and take some Molly/MDMA while they are at it in order to overcome their entrenched perceptions and narrations about reality and the given present natures of their children at this moment in time.

    but like, that will never like, happen.

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    I can't imagine someone saying that with a straight face. This isn't a viewpoint I have much experience with, so my initial reaction would be to laugh, and then be completely befuddled when I realized they were serious. I might have said some smart-ass comment like, "Well, I guess you should have had more kids then, shirking your responsibility by stopping at one just isn't acceptable. Why didn't you think about the good of the family?" But, I don't know how a Fi person would react.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I can't imagine someone saying that with a straight face. This isn't a viewpoint I have much experience with, so my initial reaction would be to laugh, and then be completely befuddled when I realized they were serious. I might have said some smart-ass comment like, "Well, I guess you should have had more kids then, shirking your responsibility by stopping at one just isn't acceptable. Why didn't you think about the good of the family?" But, I don't know how a Fi person would react.
    @squark, my SLI-ex didn't want kids at first. Not any. I had to tell her I was going to have kids, and I hoped that they'd be with her but they didn't have to be, to get her to have even one. Our son is now the light of her life, but he's doing the same thing she did.
    I can't tell you how much this pisses me off. I realize now that my choice of partners was flawed. It was based on the fact that I knew she'd make a good mother, but didn't include whether she'd want to be a mother or not.

    So, yes. My fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I can't imagine someone saying that with a straight face. This isn't a viewpoint I have much experience with, so my initial reaction would be to laugh, and then be completely befuddled when I realized they were serious. I might have said some smart-ass comment like, "Well, I guess you should have had more kids then, shirking your responsibility by stopping at one just isn't acceptable. Why didn't you think about the good of the family?" But, I don't know how a Fi person would react.
    Ha yeah. My parents immigrated and when they were financially stable enough to have a second child my mom had a disease and became infertile.

    The part in italics I would never say to anyone.

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    I wouldn't have a problem with it.

    In fact, I think it. I think it for my relatives.

    That is because I do want to start my own family someday though, for me, not for others. I mean, I think about how it affects others close to me but if I truly chose to die an old boy out of my own accord, I'd say it is my choice, and I would hold myself accountable to any damage this causes to my relation with relatives who don't agree.

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    Ip-types tend to be defensively reactive while Ejs offensively reactive, and both find it hard to disconnect. Eps and Ijs tend to be more detached so after a verbal offense, they tend to metaphorically say "I'll get back to you on that" but this doesn't mean that an insult is any less hurtful to them; they'll simply exact retribution later. Both Ips and Ejs usually want immediate closure and their impatience to get it often results in demonstrative confrontations. You have to ask yourself if it's better to get it over with immediately or to let it fester for a long time......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    I get along very well with my son. He's said he doesn't expect to inherit anything, but he's his mother's only child and my parent's only heir, so he will inherit, regardless of anything I do. He basically doesn't have to work. This also pisses me off, but he's well-liked by his friends and is unfailingly helpful to family members, so he's turned out pretty well, all things considered. Better than my own track record in this regard, certainly.

    I can clearly see that I'm motivated by wanting offspring to have children themselves, and I can see how unfair that is to my son. For the most part, I don't push my agenda, but it still bothers me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I get along very well with my son. He's said he doesn't expect to inherit anything, but he's his mother's only child and my parent's only heir, so he will inherit, regardless of anything I do. He basically doesn't have to work. This also pisses me off, but he's well-liked by his friends and is unfailingly helpful to family members, so he's turned out pretty well, all things considered. Better than my own track record in this regard, certainly.

    I can clearly see that I'm motivated by wanting offspring to have children themselves, and I can see how unfair that is to my son. For the most part, I don't push my agenda, but it still bothers me.
    this is funny because this is precisely what my parents say too "oh people love you and you're so smart and have achieved all these different things, that means the way we've acted was right. and coincidentally why we can disregard any criticism originating from you" basically alls well that ends well, without even perceiving whats going on under the surface. I've realized that the truth of Jung is that the intractable nature and harm of certain worldviews is precisely why humans aren't allowed to live forever. they absolutely must be replaced. but its also why violence is not really the answer, because life has a built in solution. in essence people cannot be convinced of anything, but they can be examples for future generations on how not to be. this is why people think if we could somehow devise some scientific scheme to extend life indefinitely it would be utopia, but it would actually result in hell on earth, because time is a necessary function of morality

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    My Te solution to you and any young women in a similar position is: freeze your eggs and keep your options open.

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    Reality check comeback:

    The nature human of human is psychopathic. Do we really have the right to put more babies (and therefore psychos) on this earth?
    How about other species? I doubt we are more valuable than those? To think about it life itself seems quite sadomasochistic loop. Do we really need that?

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    yeah its like a mirage of a family, bunch of souless people gathered around the table, hoping if the camera is rolling they all look right

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    yeah its like a mirage of a family, bunch of souless people gathered around the table, hoping if the camera is rolling they all look right
    wow, well I don;t mean it like that as in reality TV, more along the lines of viewing through a window of perception that may or may not truly reflect the living nature of what they see, only what their minds tell them they see vis a vi memories, patterns, habits, wounds, rights, demands, projections. You can't properly greet reality by chatting over top of it, if you catch my drift.

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    yeah I bought some shroom spores, although I haven't planted them yet. in the perfect world I could sit down with my parents, have a heart to heart, and go on a drug trip with them and then maybe we could all for once in our lives really talk to eachother rather than through some brick wall of economic "logic", which isn't even all that sound or informed to begin with

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    yeah I bought some shroom spores, although I haven't planted them yet. in the perfect world I could sit down with my parents, have a heart to heart, and go on a drug trip with them and then maybe we could all for once in our lives really talk to eachother rather than through some brick wall of economic "logic", which isn't even all that sound or informed to begin with


    Well I don't know if you are joking or not, but its not really about the vehicle (shrooms), its just about getting to whats real through all the bs..like the mind is not your friend, especially with years of history: so many back and forth reactions that happen instantaneously, so much unconscious role playing on top. How do you sort that out without some structure like a counsellor, or how do you do it on your own, eating the inevitable sacrifice while still remaining true to yourself?

    Look I'm not saying recreational drugs are the answer by any means but one thing about that particular drug is that there is no hiding. You are as naked and therefore as vulnerable as is possible for a human soul to be. At any rate..all you can really hope for is to be a better man then your parents were. Doesn't always work out, lord I fucking know it, but tons of grace happens in that little spot.

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    Returned to post this semi-impassioned manifesto:

    I can imagine that it’s very different to be in the thick of it, but I always thought I'd try my best to provide the support my child needs to be happy, even if their preferences are extremely different from my own. And if I can’t manage that, I want them to know that they have value no matter what.

    Love necessitates letting someone else be their true selves.

    Also, love is wishing the best for someone even if it means that person is going against your desires. In some cases (like failed romantic relationship), it necessitates letting go.

    Also I've been told that I won't have energy to raise a kid if I'm "too old" when I have them, but I really want to be in a good emotional position. I want my kid to grow up in a happy family.

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    I can't imagine answering as though my own father were saying this because it's so entirely out of the scope of my family's values that I can't put myself exactly in your shoes. My initial reaction is amused incredulity, followed by indignant rage when I actually think of it being said to me seriously. When it comes to guilt trips from my mother in general - who used them a lot - my reaction was apologetic placating on the surface while remaining firm about my decisions, followed by distancing over time as it became emotionally wearying. This probably isn't useful because we ended up estranged for years before she died and I'm guessing that's not the outcome you're looking for. She was IEI though.

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    Default flat "maybe next week" and smooth-as-possible segue to subject change or silence

    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    I feel that I overreacted to something my LSE dad said, and I am wondering if there is a Fi/Fe divide in reacting to what he said. I’m genuinely curious about the socionics of this, and am not just looking for reassurance etc.

    “You are behind schedule on dating - If you had siblings, they could share the responsibility of having grandchildren, but unfortunately since you are an only child it is your responsibility. You’re a member of this family. You can’t just think about yourself.

    Anyway, I don’t think my dad’s views make him a bad person - just retrograde - but would an Fi person have had a less intense reaction? How would you have countered it? To me, it is not ok to make someone feel bad about themselves in this way. But he didn’t seem like he was trying to harm - he was even in a good mood.
    I file LSE's complaints into "noise" -- if he wanted more grandkids, he could have created more kids. He didn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    I file LSE's complaints into "noise" -- if he wanted more grandkids, he could have created more kids. He didn't.
    It takes two to tango.

    Lol. But I'm working on it.

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    Tell him "sure, if you carry them for me".

    Honestly, I can't stand people who say that.

    Anyway, I'm the "baby" in my generation, and the next one was started before I even started highschool. No one can bother me with wanting to have grand children, they have some already.
    My father is a ESI, I think, and I can't imagine him saying such.
    Not like I see anyone enough to tell me that anyway.

    I know someone whose father was bothering her to go back to school or get a job while she was struggling with mental health and a lot of stuff (heavy stuff), she found ways to dodge the questions and make him understand the subject was not going to be discussed. She called this "choosing our fights". They still have a (sort of) relationship, which is actually better than when she was growing up.
    She is not living with him, so this makes things easier.
    She actually went back to school and didn't even tell him.

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    As strange as it sounds, he was doing what any male species (or female, but his is just a male POV) would do... that is, to propagate his genes. Propagating our genes is a Serious Business, we take it very seriously and it's what drives as living beings (why else would we have sex?). He was simply doing what he was "programmed" to do by his DNA, although he may not even have been aware or conscious of it.

    From this POV, I think saying "You’re a member of this family. You can’t just think about yourself." is just guilt-tripping and somewhat of hypocrisy. What he was really saying was this: "I want you to propagate my genes as dictated by my 'selfish genes', which just wants to replicate itself". However, perhaps he also has a point. Being "family" means you all share genes. If your family prospers, then it means that your family's genes have been successful. Therefore, I wouldn't blame him too much.

    His behavior can easily be explained by evolutionary biology.

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    There have been lots of people who didn't want to have children. Children are a many-year commitment and tie you down and require lots of your resources, which you can't then use for yourself. Since they are a huge drawback from a resources standpoint, it is not surprising that individuals often choose not to have children. (I know that's not the only reason, but it's a big one.)

    Evolution has produced a lot of behavioral traits which result in children. Sex is fun. People are short-sighted. We tend to imitate our parents' behavior who, by definition, had children. All of these things, and others, tend to produce children. If there were no mechanisms of this sort, we wouldn't be having this discussion, or any other.

    I think it's every individual's right to decide whether or not to have kids, but my personal choice is to want to have kids. It's a conscious decision, backed up by action.
    When our child was born, my ex-wife didn't want to quit her job to raise him, so I quit mine to do it. Money where your mouth is.

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    I mean, he has a point. To me, the only thing wrong with it is that he seems entitled to your behavior. But that could just be a consequence of the frame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    I mean, he has a point. To me, the only thing wrong with it is that he seems entitled to your behavior. But that could just be a consequence of the frame.
    I don't think I manipulated the frame at all. If you feel that he is right that is still up to you.

    Pregnancy is pretty personal, so I felt that there was a gender element to it as well. It made me feel uncomfortable that someone could demand the use of my womb for their purposes. I know there is a cultural expectation so I understand where that it coming from but I still felt pretty hurt, and claustrophobic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    I don't think I manipulated the frame at all. If you feel that he is right that is still up to you.

    Pregnancy is pretty personal, so I felt that there was a gender element to it as well. It made me feel uncomfortable that someone could demand the use of my womb for their purposes. I know there is a cultural expectation so I understand where that it coming from but I still felt pretty hurt, and claustrophobic.
    He's right in the sense that he seems to have a real human need and that you could provide for it. If you don't think you should be required to provide for it, it's your choice, of course. With the frame bit, I don't know the exact way he meant what he said, so it's hard for me to say if he really is entitled to making your choice for you or not.

    I guess I'm not inclined to see this as a cultural thing, but as a human weakness/emotional need sort of thing. Things like this are a major component of people's happiness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    He's right in the sense that he seems to have a real human need and that you could provide for it. If you don't think you should be required to provide for it, it's your choice, of course. With the frame bit, I don't know the exact way he meant what he said, so it's hard for me to say if he really is entitled to making your choice for you or not.

    I guess I'm not inclined to see this as a cultural thing, but as a human weakness/emotional need sort of thing. Things like this are a major component of people's happiness.
    You're guilting me but this is what I get for posting on an internet forum. I accept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    You're guilting me but this is what I get for posting on an internet forum. I accept.
    Hey, just ignore the guy. He wants something, you want something, but your wants take precedence when dealing with your own life. He has to deal with the fact that his rights stop where your nose begins. Or even a bit sooner. It's all about having and enforcing boundaries.

    I know that this can be difficult. My own LSE mother wanted me to be a professor, since she was a grade-school teacher. I never did convince her that my choices in life were my affair.

    I remember when I had some spare time on my hands and approached the local college to see if they wanted me to teach a course in an area where I have some expertise. They said Yes, if enough students signed up for the course.
    I told my parents about this when I visited them, and I was amazed to find that they were suddenly proud of me. I mean, WTF? I had been out-earning them for years and that got me no respect. I was married with a family and a house and that got me no respect. This random side job made them proud. It kind of pissed me off.

    It was just another step in the long path that eventually led me to the realization that I was never going to get their approval, so there was no point in trying.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 07-05-2018 at 02:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    He's right in the sense that he seems to have a real human need and that you could provide for it. If you don't think you should be required to provide for it, it's your choice, of course. With the frame bit, I don't know the exact way he meant what he said, so it's hard for me to say if he really is entitled to making your choice for you or not.

    I guess I'm not inclined to see this as a cultural thing, but as a human weakness/emotional need sort of thing. Things like this are a major component of people's happiness.


    Actually no, why is it always someone else's emotions that matter?

    I have so much guilt already that for many years I was in and out of suicidal. A lot of that was exacerbated by my parents telling me that I was the greatest source of suffering in their lives (literally), and me knowing that it was true, although all I really did was have a non-lucrative job and not call them. When I was a kid, my mom who had her own pressures was violent and guilting, I'd frequently go to bed with bruises all over, and once I had welts and pus that came out of my wounds. My dad never stopped her, he said that he wanted a quiet, peaceful home and that we were disturbing that. I am not perfect but I have tried, and for a long stretch I was barely functional, let alone providing for my father's "real human need."

    I am fighting myself to not downward spiral to the place where I hated myself so much that I frequently thought about killing myself.

    Last edited by lemontrees; 07-05-2018 at 03:02 AM.

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    Interestingly, this might explain our patriarchal nature, and the common tendency of males wanting to control the sexual reproduction of females. They do it so that they can propagate their genes.

    Of course, biology is not destiny, and we are against controlling women because we find it morally abhorrent and it goes against our value of respecting individual choice and rights.

    But we should also be somewhat grateful that humans didn't develop even more gruesome strategies for propagating genes - infanticide. Some other animals, such as alpha male lions, go to another pack of lions and drive away or kill the alpha male of that group, and then goes to murder every one of the cubs of the other alpha males, so that only his genes would survive (also so that without any cubs, the lioness would be in the mood to breed again). This would be devastating for any females. Of course, infanticide isn't totally out of the question for humans as well, it can sometimes happen, but normally we find such a thing horrific and completely morally shocking and appalling.

    It was such a shocking discovery that many scientists refused to believe such a thing could happen until fairly recently.
    Last edited by Singu; 07-05-2018 at 01:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Interestingly, this might explain our patriarchal nature, and the common tendency of males wanting to control the sexual reproduction of females. They do it so that they can propagate their genes.

    Of course, biology is not destiny, and we are against controlling women because we find it morally abhorrent and it goes against our value of respecting individual choice and rights.

    But we should also be somewhat grateful that humans didn't develop even more gruesome strategies for propagating genes - infanticide. Some other animals, such as alpha male lions, go to another pack of lions and drive away or kill the alpha male of that group, and then goes to murder every one of the cubs of the other alpha males, so that only his genes would survive (also so that without any cubs, the lioness would be in the mood to breed again). This would be devastating for any females. Of course, infanticide isn't totally out of the question for humans as well, it can sometimes happen, but normally we find such a thing horrific and completely morally shocking and appalling.

    It was such a shocking discovery that many scientists refused to believe such a thing could happen until fairly recently.
    An organism is just a DNA molecule's way of making another DNA molecule. How that is accomplished transcends any "morality" that might belong to the organism.

    Lol. That does not alter the way an organism might feel about it, though.

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