C types difficult as children

[Guillaine]

I'm wondering if anyone can elaborate on C (as in Creative rather than N, D or H) types experience in real life and in children. I believe I am C as is my son, I believe my mother was too. From my nan, mum and me each of our children was difficult when it comes to doing something like buying a pair of shoes, nearly an impossible task. I am wondering if there is a link here, like C types want to choose for themselves everything all the time, find it difficult to just follow others advice or even the culture around them, need to interpret it though their own eyes, and if they have not completed that are not satisfied and refuse to make as decision or something. Also as children that kind of hyper focus on their interests while easily blocking out other information seems a bit similar to what some gifted children do, not saying any of us were gifted, just some similar challenges. Perhaps this and other things carry over into adulthood. Has anyone had similar experiences or observations.

Also how to help and facilitate C types, as other C types approach usually just clashes or makes it worse?

[The Reality Denialist]

I do things my own way. If I can't things start to slow down considerably.


The hardest course in uni to pass was a course where we should gather information and cite it as was instructed. The last part didn't make any sense and I ended up redoing the assignment several times (for reasons like wrong word processor, wrong citing software etc). Although my research in thesis was good it didn't look good to them even when I used LaTeX. That was a major drawback in grade. I also find highly standardized conditions stiffing when causationally changing order of something does not matter when you know what you are doing. I used to play with teacher's head in school by testing them in examinations. Well, it didn't went so well although I dropped it when "an era" was reaching its closure.

As a child, I don't really think I was so difficult but then again there was no requirements for formality at home. My first grade teacher had some issues with me and it was about my peculiar curiosity towards different things (conflictor I suppose).

When it comes to formal impulsive behavior – I have none of it ̣– too mainstream, I suppose. I don't drink alcohol or do drugs. Never wanted to. . Those things just seem to be bit too standardish solution.

[Bertrand]

I think creative types are more apt to perceive where formal rules requirements and intepretations of all kinds have their limits and generally act in a way that points this out, because I think deep down they want all people to more free and to do away with pretense that might harm someone for no reason except as part of an order that provides certainty for others. to them in general the solution is for people to come to terms with their uncertainty and improve things, not hammer everyone down in order to feel more secure. the problem is the golden rule in some sense. people don't want to be more free, and they act consistent with that, which constrains the C type, and the C type does want to be more free and they act consistent with that. both people think theyre doing whats right and good in fact for the other, when its actually annoying or even harming them. this is a problem with radically different perspectives, not to mention numerical mismatch. by way of being in the minority the C types are always going to have to give way, unless through a feat of creativity they can surmount these unique kinds of obstacles, in which they find their calling

[Aramas]

Apparently I was a little devil when I was a kid. I would apparently turn over food onto the floor or ground. Everyone else apparently thought it was intentional, but when you're 2 or 3, it could just be butter fingers and curiosity.

I say apparently because I don't remember any of it.

[Sol]

Gulenko's subtypes are baseless heresy

[The Reality Denialist]

Gulenko's subtypes are baseless heresy

Yes, yes we have already prepared bonfire for Gulenko. We also offer it to you in case you also want to cleanse your sins (considering nonverbals as Augusta almighty did not do it).

[The Reality Denialist]

C subtypes tend to avoid role as much as they can.


So you won't find athletic Ne-C bases, ahead thinking Si-C bases, pondering Se-C bases, adaptive Ni-C bases, analytical Fi-C bases, polite Ti-C bases, emotionally adaptive Te-C bases, productivity oriented Fe-C bases especially when they are children.

[Bertrand]

yeah I don't think that holds up

[FDG]

I am probably a C in this somewhat baseless system and I was quite easy as a child. Fairly good behaved, perfect grades, just somewhat stubborn. Much easier as a child than as an adult I think.

[Guillaine]

I am probably a C in this somewhat baseless system and I was quite easy as a child. Fairly good behaved, perfect grades, just somewhat stubborn. Much easier as a child than as an adult I think.

I'm curious as to what about you is difficult as an adult, do you mean uncooperative generally, stubborn, need to do things your own way?

[Guillaine]

Well there seems little evidence from my theory from that so I guess it is my weird genetics. What Bertrand said about freedom makes sense in the buying shoes context. It's like a procedure that there is not a lot of flexibility in, there are only so many shoes, you are expected to try some on, and eventually expected to buy from what is available, my son is not interested, will go over to the girls shoes maybe or just resist the whole thing. He has since he was able to talk used the phrase he wants to do it "as I like to", at which point I get it and back off, I was the same. I guess freedom from the system was why I was keen to learn to sew my own clothes, grow my own vegetables etc. when younger

I just thought, if this theory has some evidence in reality, it could explain maybe a certain slower learning of perhaps emotional IQ, not saying this is for all but for those in my family, whereby us C types as so focused on learning and making and implementing our wishes that we may not pay as much attention to social cues and feedback we are receiving (we are less receptive) from others.

I guess as a parent and person I am trying to find a balance for my son between keeping him and those around him safe and keeping his initiative taking /unique perspectives from being beaten out of him.Then I'm reflecting on myself and how to do that for me, for example what to let go of in terms of what other people expect of me and what do I need to listen to that's important.

[FDG]

I'm curious as to what about you is difficult as an adult, do you mean uncooperative generally, stubborn, need to do things your own way?

In the "adult" world there's a lot more focus on fine social skills, social games and getting ahead through underhanded favors, and that's not exactly a realm where I naturally excel.

Not that I'm homeless or anything, but everything's fairly more random.

[The Reality Denialist]

I think ADHD labels and such do not really correspond well to this sub. There seems to be ILE Eric Strauss and his Youtube channel: Talking with famous people https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6L...bvNuABUKmOF9zg (maybe one could even think of LII about him, IDK). He identifies with Dominant subtype is very clear ADHD case and admits it himself.

Anyways, he seems to be capable of drawing out people and manipulating social sphere when he needs and organizes his life as he wishes although his life seems to be very very random. He seems to have very domineering personality which is well beyond of my own taste.

[Soupman]

I am probably a C in this somewhat baseless system and I was quite easy as a child. Fairly good behaved, perfect grades, just somewhat stubborn. Much easier as a child than as an adult I think.

How have you not learnt DCNH to observe it empirically now?

[Soupman]

I'm wondering if anyone can elaborate on C (as in Creative rather than N, D or H) types experience in real life and in children. I believe I am C as is my son, I believe my mother was too. From my nan, mum and me each of our children was difficult when it comes to doing something like buying a pair of shoes, nearly an impossible task. I am wondering if there is a link here, like C types want to choose for themselves everything all the time, find it difficult to just follow others advice or even the culture around them, need to interpret it though their own eyes, and if they have not completed that are not satisfied and refuse to make as decision or something. Also as children that kind of hyper focus on their interests while easily blocking out other information seems a bit similar to what some gifted children do, not saying any of us were gifted, just some similar challenges. Perhaps this and other things carry over into adulthood. Has anyone had similar experiences or observations.

Also how to help and facilitate C types, as other C types approach usually just clashes or makes it worse?

Cs are only difficult when they are raised by Ns because of conflict over matters of risk and independence.

[Tallmo]

C children can often be shy or in their own thoughts and projects.

One of my buddies as a kid was a C-SLE. He always had some original ideas. Technical stuff, like building things, airplanes, machines, chemical experiments, was very good in sports. Was always telling some strange stories about his projects. He was very active. Everybody knew what to expect from him, and they accepted him as an eccentric.

He could be very violent when provoked by teasing or bullying, though, but only then. Most of the time he was ok.

I don't think that C children are particularly difficult. But IF they have some problems, it could mean more trouble. Like running away from home etc.

In some cases the behaviour can multiply if you have a C who has grown up in uncertain conditions, maybe parents divorce etc, and maybe he has some personal problems on top of that. Then it can really blow out of proportion.

[niffer]

I have an uncle who seems to be a C-SLE. He likes to talk to me about his business endeavours the most out of everyone in the family. Actually he wants to have dinner with me this weekend for Father’s Day which is kinda awkward as hell lol but understandable too. He’s very rambly and has a light goofy sense of humour. Wiry and slender. Uses slang expressions an upper middle class white woman would, as a middle aged Asian man (e.g. “ta-ta”). Likes The Simpsons.

[idontgiveaf]

Omg! I just realized I'm really a C subtype.

I'm actually very independent and i don't really listen to people 😂 even my parents growing up because i feel like they don't make sense. Though i listen to people's ideas if it really make sense or if it's really wise.

I don't really follow the norm as well. I'm very non conformist and i just follow myself all the time.

And yes it's really a challenge to follow a certain norm.. It's really hard for me to follow a rule. And i don't know.. When i try to go against the rule, it's not because i intentionally do it.. It's just because it's my nature? Or i just don't really feel like it's necessary or I'm not really aware of the rules 😂😂

I got problems usually with following rules.. Because i mostly follow myself.. And when someone is asking me to do it, i don't do the way he/she told me. I would rather do it my own way. I don't like anything scripted as well. I like to make things naturally and not forced.. Just following what you really want..

But sometimes i also like someone guiding me what to do or not to do.. Because if i just follow myself all the time then I'm not gonna improve myself.. So necessary and optional guidance is needed.

[The Reality Denialist]

The moment you realise that you are taking with C sub: "Never try to connect tractor's engine to a bicycle. Trust me."

[Tallmo]

Carl Jungs auto-biography gives some insights into a C-sub child.

[niffer]

Carl Jungs auto-biography gives some insights into a C-sub child.

Someone’s review of the book on there which I found interesting:

See, Jung's narrative demonstrates a way to live one's life that I have often suspected might work well for me: minimize one's tendencies toward rational thought and maximize one's reliance on rationality's opposite (intuition, hunches, coincidences, God, the unconcious). So, as I read Jung's repeated accounts of rushing into projects and life decisions based on dreams, visions, and other numinous experiences, including contact with ghosts, I realized that his willingness to engage "the unseen" was integral to his becoming the creative force he was.

I am still sorting through the answers to my question. I will say that anyone who thinks that reason or intellectual conception provides the only valid basis for action in this world should take a close look at Jung's life and work.

[Tallmo]

Someone’s review of the book on there which I found interesting:

He lived both rationally and irrationally. Highly educated, high social status, PhD, psychiatrist, writer and scientist, respectable family, many responsibilites etc. But there were other things also. But the book is a good introduction into his life.

[niffer]

He lived both rationally and irrationally. Highly educated, high social status, PhD, psychiatrist, writer and scientist, respectable family, many responsibilites etc. But there were other things also. But the book is a good introduction into his life.

What can you remember off the top of your head that made you feel he was C sub?

[Tallmo]

What can you remember off the top of your head that made you feel he was C sub?

There are so many reasons for that. Basically his whole career is pioneer work in psychology. It's not just about Jung but generally pinoeer intellectiuals tend to be C.

His childhood: Problems with teachers, mathematics seems absurd, has religious experiences, can be violent and defend himself, wants to know about God and reads theology, but find outs that the writers don't know what they're talking about, very flexible, can alter himself, very independent reasoning and conclusions etc.

But read the book and you'll see.

[Rhaegar]

If this subtype system is real, I think I've shifted from C to D in my life since childhood. That said, as a child I was VERY EXCITABLE. Everything was amazing, I was always looking for new ways to do/say/be. I participated in theater, ignored every single thing my parents put me into that I didn't like, and spent huge amounts of time just trying to get people fired up about whatever new toy/game/x thing I was doing. I remember I used to run around with a camera and try to get people to participate in "game shows" I was filming or create SuperSoaker wars.

As far as my parents go, I think I was difficult in so far as I argued for everything that I wanted all the time. I was massively argumentative. My Father is a C type SLE so I was only going to win so many fights but I held my own. I remember being a big starter, but not much a finisher when I was young. Always on to the next exciting thing. Now I find great satisfaction in finishing everything I start. My best friend is also normalizing so I think that all changed my behavior. Still, sometimes I miss being excitable like that. I also used to just ditch the other kids or parents when they weren't into whatever I was into. Like you guys are jumping over the fence, "lame", Ill pass. On to play with my Gundam models or custom lego ships.

[The Reality Denialist]

But the mystical aspect is usually connected to H sub.

[niffer]

But the mystical aspect is usually connected to H sub.

I don’t see why both of the irrational subs can’t be in different ways. Ne can have a detached/meta otherworldly quality too.

[The Reality Denialist]

Carl Jungs auto-biography gives some insights into a C-sub child.

https://archive.org/details/Memories...ctionsCarlJung

[Guillaine]

Awesome replies thanks. It is something I'm coming to grips with. If I repress it I am unhappy, even depressed, am that is bad for everyone, if I express it I accept a certain amount of loneliness, even rejection from certain sections in society, even if I have some good harmonisers nearby. Finding useful ways to channel the energy and contribute something to society with it seems to be the answer along with ignoring/side-stepping unnecessary social protocols that are burdensome. I want to lead by example for my son.

Tallmo Brilliant idea about reading Jungs bio, it will be next on my list.

idontgiveaf That's great, I can totally relate. It's like a curse or being possessed with some rebel demon. Knowing there are other's out there makes me feel less strange.

Rheagar I can relate to some of this, as a child I would organise "shows" and performances with whoever I played with, and especially what you said about standing my own ground against the C-parent. It ended up she would just say do it yourself, for example I did my own hair, cut my own fringe from age 8 as my mum refused to help me as there were too many fights about it. I would love to get better at finishing projects, it is one of my worst faults. I didn't realise people could change types like that.

Niffer- the quote about intuition and the unseen is so interesting. I guess I have been gravitating in that direction, in terms of really trusting it more lately since becoming a mum. Might sound a bit strange but when I gave birth almost instantly I felt in the dark and realised I had not been mothered, had not attached emotionally to my mum, had no idea how to mother/nurture someone though I was determined to learn. Everyone's advice just sound like hollow drums, nothing clicked with me, nothing worked. I ended up spending a lot of time in parks with my son as he was an active baby and i used to look at trees, like feel there presence or something. Then I would observe them, how they shed their bark, who they shelter, what happens in each season, and I actually learn a lot about motherhood from trees. I know it sounds weird but I thought of this when you said that.

[The Reality Denialist]

This dude sounds lot like EJArendee:



Yes, he uses neural networks to play GTA V.

[Tallmo]

But the mystical aspect is usually connected to H sub.

Also to Cs. Terence McCenna is a Creative

[Guillaine]

I was watching this the other day and thought it was a good example of a C being interview by a (N or D not sure, D?) and how she gets frustrated by not having enough space to answer in a way that is creating something new, ie the questions do not allow her to launch into anything.

[Guillaine]

Cs are only difficult when they are raised by Ns because of conflict over matters of risk and independence.

I think there are some issues with both wanting to supply the original ideas and solve problems, and sometimes C's can think their ideas and and solutions are superior, or at least more important to them, to those of others. Like I'll ask my son "do you wanna throw a ball outside?" and it doesn't matter if he does or doesn't the fact that he didn't think of this is unappealing to him so he will often say no for that fact alone. Also they are constantly "elaborating" on what's around them so in my son's case being SEE elaborating on the physical environment, so if there is a pile of folded clothes he will knock it over or take one and put it on his head or do something, he has to put his spin on things, not to be naughty it's instinctual. I remember when I was a kid all the cousins got a turn to drive my nan's tractor except me, and I think it was because the adults had this sense that I would not follow instructions exactly but elaborate to some degree and could not be trusted. Yet trust is exactly what C's need, in order to establish their limits and learn self-restraint and when to ask for help.

On the other hand as a functioning adult even though C type there are lots of things I have probably normalised to some degree like basic kitchen safety, how to follow a recipe etc, so there is that conflict too.

[Saoirse]

My partner is C, and he was a difficult teenager. He would sneak out at night and sleep in and skip class and all that. When his parents found out, they were really upset and scared he was going to get into drugs or something. But his view was "chill, it's normal for teenagers to do this." He intentionally aimed to do the bare minimum to get into the kinds of universities he wanted to get into, so in some ways, he was a slacker. But he's doing well now. Good job, good girlfriend (if I may say so myself ), sees his parents quite frequently even though they live pretty far away. Generally successful by society's standards. Parents of Cs, try not to worry too much! Just try to raise someone with good core values and critical thinking skills, and they'll get to somewhere good, even if by a way that you wouldn't have taken yourself/can't see leading to somewhere good.

[Tallmo]

My partner is C, and he was a difficult teenager. He would sneak out at night and sleep in and skip class and all that. When his parents found out, they were really upset and scared he was going to get into drugs or something. But his view was "chill, it's normal for teenagers to do this." He intentionally aimed to do the bare minimum to get into the kinds of universities he wanted to get into, so in some ways, he was a slacker. But he's doing well now. Good job, good girlfriend (if I may say so myself ), sees his parents quite frequently even though they live pretty far away. Generally successful by society's standards. Parents of Cs, try not to worry too much! Just try to raise someone with good core values and critical thinking skills, and they'll get to somewhere good, even if by a way that you wouldn't have taken yourself/can't see leading to somewhere good.

what is your subtype?

[Saoirse]

what is your subtype?

I am H. How about you?

[Tallmo]

I am H. How about you?

ok, that makes sense. I see a lot of DCNH couples. I am N, although with time it has become more blurred.

[schwiftyrickty]

It's possible I am C subtype and not H. I was a moderately difficult child. I really clashed with my mom and would constantly argue and goad her into hitting me. I also refused to do school work and hated rules in general. Actually my childhood outspokeness is one of the main reasons I find it hard to believe I am H subtype or E9. And I still dislike rules and authority. I just can't be sure if that is typical of most EXXp types regardless of other factors.

[Bertrand]

saying you goaded your parent into hitting you seems really pathological on a lot of levels, because it could either be a crazy victim game where you're trying to take the blame on yourself in order to argue about it and ultimately get them to feel bad enough to take responsibility, or you actually believe that as a child you should be responsible for the acts of your parent (an inversion of the parent/child role). either way it seems ultra consistent with e9, maybe a little e2 I guess. I dunno I dislike enneagram. DCNH is about group roles people naturally assume, if you think its about creating "harmony" in the sense of superficially getting along for the next 5 seconds thats not really it. its about feedback that molds the group over time in a more equilibrated (Si Ni Fi) state, in other words it smooths out things that could ultimately lead to things getting so out of whack it leads to self injury from the point of a group as organism made up of individuals. its about health and cohesion long term. normalizing is more about enforcing rules in the short term, keeping the lines and internal boundaries of the organism clear and set. you can think of harmonizing as adjusting those lines, and thus the other side to the rigid normalizing. both are introverted i.e.: concerned with the internal group status, whereas dominant and creative have similar tension in directing the group in a more macro sense. creative wants to shift course, dominant wants to pump momentum etc

[timber]

Trees are dope.