Relations of Extinguishment (Contrary)

[Aramas]

This forum has a lot of discussion of duality, conflict, and supervision. I've noticed a lack of discussion of other relations though, and I thought I'd remedy that with some talk about relations of extinguishment. So I figured I'd ask about your experiences with this relationship and discuss my own. What do you think extinguishment relations are like? What's your theory and experience?

At first, I often find extinguishment partners to be rather attractive but also frustrating. It seems like we both come up with physical activities to do, but they are activities in different places with different people (or absence thereof). Neither partner really gives in to the other on what they want to do, because they are both pushing back against the strong functions of the other. Eventually they become critical, bitter relations where both partners think the worst of each other. The most significant phenomenon, though, is feeling like all your efforts are indeed being snuffed out, as if someone put out a candle or something. When you try to create a goal and work towards accomplishing it, your extinguishment partner will tell you that you're doing it wrong or that it isn't worth doing. After a while together, both partners feel as if their lights have gone out, as if any kind of inspiration or hope for whatever things they wanted to accomplish is disappeared. The relations eventually become dead, still drudgery with lots of backbiting and sabotage in the end as both partners begin to resent each other for what they see as purposeful destruction of their desires.

I think the canonical descriptions for the most part underestimate (or perhaps just understate) the potential negativity that can overtake this relationship, especially when both partners are shoved into close quarters with each other without the experience of duality to buffer them and protect them. The only sentence I found on the descriptions on wikisocion that seemed to mirror my own experience with the relation stated that it was one of the most difficult relationships for marriage. And that was all, really.

[Guillaine]

My experiences haven't been so dramatic, I guess we've mainly steered clear of each other in one way or another, often male extinguishers just steer clear of me I've noticed even though I might be keen to find common ground. Sometimes I got the sense they were jealous of me getting along with their duals. Sometimes I find them attractive as characters on tv.

I'm interested in this relation as it was mine and my father's and I guess the best parent relationship I had, although it was very distant, you could say. He was e 9. I felt very unsupported by him in every way, he just let me do my own thing. He only interacted with me or guided me in group situations ie with the whole family together or as a youth group leader, then he seemed to enjoy my presence and those are the moments I treasure. He was so conflict-avoidant that nothing ever blew up though it did with me and everyone else, which meant we had a meaningful bond in my eyes but it was very distant. I read to him in his last moths in hospital and he appreciated it, I hated what I was reading and frequently made comments on my opinion, which I regret now but he tolerated it all with grace. When he died my connection to my family ended.

[Guillaine]

I don't know if there's something genetic to this but I keep noticing this relationship in many families I know. parent-child i mean

[Rebelondeck]

If discord happens, the externally referenced partner seems to be the first to get irritated usually due to impatience, and will start trying to move the schedule, which causes the other to dig the heels in even deeper. They usually can converse quite well and can often reach consensus on overall objectives but rarely agree on which are the most important aspects or how things should be done. When there's sufficient separation of roles and responsibilities, this pair can coexist quite well and can even help each other significantly though they don't bring nearly enough variety to the table. The potential strength in this relationship lies somewhere in the middle but where mutual helpfulness starts to tank.......

a.k.a. I/O

[MrsTortilla]

Oh extinguishment. The bane of my existence.

Me: ESI - MIL: ESE

If I tell my MIL an idea, she will shoot it down and tell me all the reasons it's no good. But then she comes up with something unsuited to me she thinks I should strive to do instead.

If I am cooking with my MIL and it's something she has asked me to show her how to do (make good pie crust for instance) she will ignore my suggestions and mess it up on purpose because she doesn't want to hear advice from me.

If she asks me how I am, and I answer, she immediately zones out because she doesn't care about what I am saying.

When she asks me questions about things (normal conversation about current events or life) I used to answer honestly but learned over time this was a bad course of action with her. Now I just smile and say simple things I think she wants to hear. It SORT of works.

If we have a back and forth conversation her responses to me will completely surprise and frustrate me, they seem completely out of place.

Family tell us we are very much alike (NO NO NO NO NO) and therefore should get along better.

My father in law tells me how much ESE MIL loves me and worries and spends time wishing I would just follow her advice (generally).

She seems to me to be incredibly bossy/pushy.

Strangely, I like quite a few ESE actors (although NOT Tom Cruise, yikes) such as Jason Bateman and Jenna Fisher, and am drawn to their look initially.

[Xaiviay]

Ugh, contrary relations. I know first hand how bad it is to date your contrary partner (in my case, SEE). The aggressor/caregiver dynamic is not enjoyable for either party. Our understandings of love are not even compatible. They think an essential part of loving someone is to overpower the 'target', which goes against my sense of dignity. I think to love someone is to care for them in ways that they find humiliating/insulting. What one wants to do naturally makes the other miserable.

My friendships with them have gone well, actually, but they do leave me feeling unusually drained after we've hung out. I have to try to keep up with their Se intiatives, and I don't feel I get to relax enough with them. I bet they often feel that they have to slow down for me, and that probably bores them. But otherwise, we communicate pretty easily. Understanding each other is hardly ever difficult. It seems we both tend to be very passionate and expressive, and if we have enough mutual interests, we can boost each other's enthusiasm for those interests for hours. The compatibility between two irrational types feels good, too. We're both able to react quickly to changes in the environment, and enjoy ourselves without a plan.

So for friendships, I've found contrary relationships to be okay. For romantic relationships, they're terrible.

[Olimpia]

I've written an article on Extinguishment before:

"Extinguishment is characterized by the sudden and intense ignition of interest, which however cannot sustain itself and will eventually get extinguished out of the blue, to the surprise and disappointment of both people.

Extinguishment partners meet almost just as often and easily as Quasi-Identicals, for their interests are very similar – both being part of the same Club. In the early stages of the interaction, Extinguishment partners will primarily showcase their Role function, which is of special interest to the other person. Additionally, the complementary temperaments as well as Cognitive Styles will create even more attraction and interest, for they are identical to one’s Dual. In a way, Extinguishment partners “activate” each other more than Activity partners do – in the beginning. Just like in Activity, the people may experience a sense of excitement and elation. If there is also some amount of sexual attraction, both people will certainly try to establish a romantic relationship.

Unfortunately, the more the Extinguishment partners get to know each other and actually tap into the full expression of their Ego functions, the more they will realize that their views and attitudes on life are not similar at all, being part of opposite Quadras. This is the extinguishment of the fire. First entirely enamoured, now the two must face the reality that there is no real foundation supporting their admiration. If the interaction was of a romantic nature, the relationship will ultimately disintegrate. If it was of a platonic nature, their interactions will have long pauses in-between them. Similar to Activity, Extinguishment friendships need periodic breaks, but differently from Activity those breaks are much longer.

It has commonly been proposed that Semi-Duality resembles the “moth to the flame” scenario, but this does apply more to Extinguishment – for the moth inevitable dies when it meets the flame, and so do Extinguishment romantic relationships usually always die once the people truly know each other. In that manner, Extinguishment also resembles the dynamic of infatuation where both people fall madly in love with each other at first, not noticing any of the flaws and discrepancies, just to fall out of love once the rose-coloured glasses have fallen off and they see the other person for who they truly are.

Needless to say, Extinguishment is rarely to be found amongst long-term romantic relationships. It is especially rare for the Logical types, who are generally more inclined to date Ethical types.

All in all, Extinguishment can be an invigorating and interesting relation, but because of its lack of stability as well as common ground, it is not recommended for long-lasting romantic relationships like marriage. Extinguishment is much easier to handle in short-term dating, or any kind of open relationship that does not require stable exclusive commitment. Extinguishment friendships can be positively stimulating, but with too little distance also have the tendency to bring confusion and potential drama. Hence Extinguishment is best in work settings with a positive, friendly atmosphere, where both partners can contribute freely and stimulate the other with an appropriate amount of psychological distance."

[Sol]

close to neutral. if the psyche distance becomes closer - different life views predispose to conflicts
people think from different sides. this may lead to contradictions at 1st moments and some later to understanding of other's point of view

other values annoy. for example, being base Te I dislike how base Ti show Fe-style emotions
surplus attention and valuing to your non valued regions, and the lack of it for your values. for example, Se types may be more careless to the health

[Adam Strange]

My experience with Extinguishment is entirely from non-romantic interactions. I have two younger sisters, an LSE (Kindred) and an LII (Extinguishment). We are all three years apart, so my Extinguishment sister is six years younger than I am, and my impression of her when growing up was that she was really smart and sensible but she seemed like she was extraordinarily child-like, which I now recognize as signs of an Infantile (since she still gives me the impression of fundamentally being a little kid.)

I love my sisters, but I get along with the LII much better than I do with the LSE. This might have been a result of our family dynamics, but I always thought her introverted disposition and rational logic were easier to take than the extroverted “do it my way right now or I will punch you in the face”-ness of my LSE sister. So, we kind of became pals. Big brother and little sister. We met mostly on a dispositional level, rather than an operational one, because, true to form, we have a hard time discussing ideas for more than a minute or two.

My LII sister told me a few years ago, when I first became interested in Socionics, that while growing up, she thought we were exactly the same type, and then later realized that we were nothing like each other. She said that I was outgoing and extroverted, she was thoughtful and introverted, and our entire approach to life was 180 degrees apart.

You can see from the function stacks why this might be so:

LIE LII
Te...Ti
Ni....Ne
Se...Si
Fi....Fe

This, of course, is what makes Extinguishment pairs so productive when working together. If one gets stuck on a problem, the other one probably already has a solution. This problem-solving aspect of Extinguishment pairs is, I think, underrated in the literature. In my opinion, LII’s are the best for rational, detailed thought and provide a great foil for my own eclectic, opportunistic approach to problem solving. They explore paths that I didn’t even see were there, and track down facts relentlessly to ensure that the whole picture makes sense.

Beebe has suggested that any two types whose dominant functions are the same but reversed, in the sense of Extroversion/Introversion (Te/Ti, or Fe/Fi), will find each other fascinating, and they could mistake this fascination for sexual attraction. I agree with this, based on my relationships with LII’s at work and LSI’s as partners.

I have a customer who is a female LII, and I find her to be incredibly sexy. She, on the other hand, likes me but never considered me for a romantic partner. She did consider using me to make her errant BF jealous, but that is a different thing.

I work with a female LII from Russia named Sveta, and I also find her interesting on a personal level and quite sexy, even though she’s built like a boxer. When we interact, it is always productive and I find her to be fascinating, but I can easily sense that our best interpersonal distance is about a long arm’s length apart. Lol.

I think that, when I was 30 or so and much less experienced and completely ignorant of romance and my own personal needs, I could have gone for an LII, but now that I have some experience with them, I have a hard time seeing how anyone would be able to close the distance to get to a romantic relationship. I mean, if the maximum discussion time is three minutes or less, what do you do with that?

[Hope]

My friendships with them have gone well, actually, but they do leave me feeling unusually drained after we've hung out. I have to try to keep up with their Se intiatives, and I don't feel I get to relax enough with them. I bet they often feel that they have to slow down for me, and that probably bores them.

I feel this way with SEEs too. They have so much energy and so many initiatives to spend it.

[Xaiviay]

I feel this way with SEEs too. They have so much energy and so many initiatives to spend it.

Exactly

[vesstheastralsilky]

My late, lifelong stepgrandmother (father's stepmother) was in contrary relation with me. As a real Se-Fi SEE (NONGulenko variety), she never got along well easily with me yet adored my ESI sister (her Mirror). She used to greatly admire things my sister would do openly no matter how small. Only once by comparison did she ever compliment me. I was 12 and doing a dance routine in which she reluctantly said seriously to my aunt I "was good". She used to often accuse me of having motives and engaging in behaviors I was not doing and then take action to put the kabosh on anything I could have been doing, in a very fearful snappy protecting sort of way about her own interests. Her friendly demeanor was usually laced with a hint of racy flirtation if she was in good spirits, to anyone. That is just how she seemed to me. She was also a rather brusque and proud woman. She was also very physically abusive to her stepchildren when they were young. When I found that out I realized I could not truly imagine her in a high ideal in relating so was polite but tried not to interact with her too much.

[The Reality Denialist]

I found one ILI at hibernation state few days ago. It is like same interests with similar orientation (=not wanting to conqueror something what rationals have in their mind but just see or test how interests can be used).
Different mental strengths with some overlapping qualities that made each other intrigued. However, I suspect that working together with same stuff could be pretty hard.

[noaydi]

I didn't take to time to read responses of other but this relationship wasn't that bad. If you discuss seriously, it's as if the other hit your inconscious thought each time, leading to a kind of self improvment (it hit the kind of unconscious thinking you can still manage and are not allergic about like conflictor)
Ive a ENFJ friend, and we are sometime making video. When I see me failing or doing shit, he feel like sometime it's conceptual and funny.

He find me cool (from his proper admission). Same, I find him somewhat charismatic, extraverted the good way. Anyway sometime I wanted to punch him like if it was an instinct (it happenned in the past with another ENFJ). I sense the same thing from him, sometime I annoy him and I feel it's just because "the person I am". But generally the relationship is not that bad. Not as good as with IEE, LSE, IEI or SLI thought.

(for me, IEI/EII relationship is cool aside the fact at some point, each part understood that at the end, the other part understood nothing about what happen beetween us, our idea, way of life, etc).

Contrary to IEI, EIE have still a moral that don't lead to conflict with myself and the person

[Muddy]

I've had the opportunity to get a lot of experience with LSE through my general manager. "Constant minor conflicts" describes the relationship well. He constantly mandates pain in the ass orders driven from his paranoia about stuff getting stolen and I'm inclined to not comply. When he first came here he seemed like a pretty likable guy to me but as time went on I've gotten more irritated with him. Despite that however we still first pump from time to time.

[Exodus]

"attractive but also frustrating"

I'd agree with that.

"My LII sister told me a few years ago, when I first became interested in Socionics, that while growing up, she thought we were exactly the same type, and then later realized that we were nothing like each other."
@Adam Strange that's bizarre... I had a very similar thing happen with me and my father when I was first learning about socionics (however, I thought he was ILE briefly, and now LIE).

Male LIEs can be interesting from a distance - often the way they see the world has something interesting to it - but our goals are so different that it's hard to form a close relationship.

With female LIEs, their energy more often tends to mimic ESEs, but only at a very superficial level.

[Hermit Soul]

They tend to annoy me for some reason. I find them flakey and wishy washy. The topics they talk about are often quite boring too, we don't seem to have much common topics to talk about.