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Thread: SLI mistypes as Beta NF?

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    Default SLI mistypes as Beta NF?

    Hi all, I'm trying to type a friend. I always thought she was a SLI but the SOLTI-160 types her as a Beta NF type (something between IEI and EIE), with a VERY strong Ethical preference. She's a lot emotional, but it feels more like highly evident Fi Hidden Agenda and definitely Fi rather than Fe valuing. Also, Fe PoLR and Ip temperament is something I'm sure about. She can completely relate to the SLI descriptions, but not to the IEI ones. What do you think? Can this even be possible?
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    Beta NF is far far away from SLI. Fi HA is not very emotional, since Fi is not emotions but relational ethics. Fe PoLR consist In a displease for showing emotions, emotional display is painful for the individual. Fi manifests in feelings, Fe manifest in emotions. If she's a teen, it could be affecting her answers in tests. But when I was teen I wasnt emotional either. But she could be feeling conflicted by emotions due her age and her perception of herself could be affected due age. There are other types to consider too, like SEI (if too much Fe) or ESI (if too much Fi). I suggest trying different tests too.

    Anyway, what traits do you see in her as Fi?

    You can pm pics for VI if you want too.
    Last edited by Crystal; 06-13-2018 at 12:59 PM.

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    In socionics, anything is possible. Here in this thread you can see @Bertrand systematically try to mistype a beta NF as my dual: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...not-sure-which .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    Beta NF is far far away from SLI. Fi HA is not very emotional, since Fi is not emotions but relational ethics. If she's a teen, it could be affecting test results. When I was teen I wasnt emotional either. In that consist Fe PoLR. In a displease for showing emotions, emotional display is painful.

    Anyway, what traits do you see in her as Fi?

    You can pm pics for VI if you want.
    Just Fi Hidden Agenda, she can fully relate to the description. And no, I'm sorry, no pic...
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    If she relates to FI HA and SLI description but also describes herself as emotional expressive in tests, there is a deceiving perception of self and the possibility of different type (s).

    As always, mistypes among teens are huge. I say this because I've seen it tons of times in forums. Teens still growing up and need to discover bunch of things in themselves and outhere to define personal preferences and consistent traits. They can be observed for others through years and see a more or less consistent type, but self image is not fixed yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    Beta NF is far far away from SLI. Fi HA is not very emotional, since Fi is not emotions but relational ethics. Fe PoLR consist In a displease for showing emotions, emotional display is painful for the individual. Fi manifests in feelings, Fe manifest in emotions. If she's a teen, it could be affecting her answers in tests. But when I was teen I wasnt emotional either. But she could be feeling conflicted by emotions due her age and her perception of herself could be affected due age. There are other types to consider too, like SEI (if too much Fe) or ESI (if too much Fi). I suggest trying different tests too.

    Anyway, what traits do you see in her as Fi?

    You can pm pics for VI if you want too.
    Don't you think it could be true for other types, especially Fe suggestive ? I always thought polr and suggestive were both painful to use, but you would be willing to use the suggestive in the right condition, i see more appreciating passively the suggestive element mostly, very often not wanting to be actually actively participating using that information element.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shining View Post
    Don't you think it could be true for other types, especially Fe suggestive ? I always thought polr and suggestive were both painful to use, but you would be willing to use the suggestive in the right condition, i see more appreciating passively the suggestive element mostly, very often not wanting to be actually actively participating using that information element.
    There are important differences.


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    Don't use tests. Type manually.

    1) Do they prefer Ethical or Logical decisions? (E/L)
    2) Do they prefer Sensory or Intuitive data? (S/I)
    3) What is their temperament? Sanguine? Melancholic? Choleric? Phlegmatic? (+P, -P, +J, -J)

    Example
    1. I like Ethical decisions. (E)
    2. I like Imagination. (I)
    3. I am Sanguine (+P)
    = IEE

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    Don't use tests. Type manually.

    1) Do they prefer Ethical or Logical decisions? (E/L)
    2) Do they prefer Sensory or Intuitive data? (S/I)
    3) What is their temperament? Sanguine? Melancholic? Choleric? Phlegmatic? (+P, -P, +J, -J)

    Example
    1. I like Ethical decisions. (E)
    2. I like Imagination. (I)
    3. I am Sanguine (+P)
    = IEE
    Say if:

    1. L
    2. S
    3. Choleric

    What would be the type?

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    LSE

    You can double check the Quadra by seeing which blocks they value.

    Beta_ST are legislators, they value building institutions
    Delta_ST are executives, value utilizing institutions.

    Subtypes can sometimes skew the typing and experience is the only way to tell between SLI-L vs LSE-S.
    What would the type be if the temperament is melancholic instead of choleric? The person in question looks like an introvert. Definitely not Sanguine but the other three are all possibilities.

    And how to tell apart an SLI and an LSI when the PoLR is not obvious? Both Ne and Fe are weak.
    Last edited by Yours Truly; 06-14-2018 at 10:11 PM. Reason: typo

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    Sanguine +P
    Melancholic -J
    Choleric +J
    Phlegmatic -P

    If they are + than last letter is E
    If they are - than last letter is I
    If they are P than first letter is S/I, second letter is L/E
    If they are J than first letter is L/E, second letter is S/I

    LSI is primarily analytical while SLI is methodical. LSI loves -L (Ti) while SLI only uses -L when necessary.


    Last edited by domr; 06-16-2018 at 08:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    Sanguine +P
    Melancholic -P
    Choleric +J
    Phlegmatic -J

    If they are + than last letter is E
    If they are - than last letter is I
    If they are P than first letter is S/I, second letter is L/E
    If they are J than first letter is L/E, second letter is S/I

    Melancholic would be SLI.

    LSI is primarily analytical while SLI is methodical. LSI loves -L (Ti) while SLI only uses -L when necessary.


    Very cool!

    Let's see:

    ILI - melancholic
    LII - phlegmatic
    SEI - melancholic
    ESI - phlegmatic
    IEI - melancholic
    EII - phlegmatic

    My guess is melancholic has higher energy than phlegmatic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yours Truly View Post


    My guess is melancholic has higher energy than phlegmatic.
    Temperament has nothing to do with energy levels. It's based on whether a person prefers perception or judgement and their approach, subjective or objective. This is why I no longer use the term introvert or extravert. I use subjective/objective, or more accurately specialist/generalist (-/+).

    That's why I call the SLI -> SL-, Sensory Logical Specialist.
    @niffer @Bertrand
    Last edited by domr; 06-14-2018 at 11:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    Sanguine +P
    Melancholic -P
    Choleric +J
    Phlegmatic -J

    Please take into account that the vast majority of people have mixed temperaments, only a few people have pure temperaments.

    As far as I understand:
    Sanguine: extraverted, positive attitude
    Choleric: extraverted, negative attitude
    Phlegmatic: introverted, positive attitude
    Melancholic: introverted, negative attitude

    Both saguine and phlegamtic people are content in the present moment, choleric and melancholic people are not content, they perceive a tension between what they want and the Status Quo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yours Truly View Post
    ILI - melancholic
    LII - phlegmatic
    SEI - melancholic
    ESI - phlegmatic
    IEI - melancholic
    EII - phlegmatic
    That's a simplification, but the trend is true. Most people don't have a pure temperament and fall into one category precisely.

    Let's see:
    EII and LII – phlegmatic because of weak sensing and weak extraverted judgement; yes,
    but both are -ego witch give them a dash of sanguinic temperament

    Do ESI really have phlegmatic temperament? ...because they have -ego
    Last edited by WinnieW; 06-15-2018 at 12:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post

    Let's see:
    EII and LII – phlegmatic because of weak sensing and weak extraverted judgement; yes,
    but both are -ego witch give them a dash of sanguinic temperament


    Do ESI really have phlegmatic temperament? ...because they have -ego


    Does each function have a temperament?

    I mean, would you say Ne is Sanguine and Ti is melancholic or phlegmatic, Se is choleric, etc?


    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    In the case of IEE:

    Ego and Super-ego blocks will have +P temperament (Sanguine) while Id and Super-Id will be +J (Choleric). Because ego is valued while id is not, ego temperament will be stronger. So a person will be primarily ego temperament, then id temperament and then mirror temperament, -J (Phalgmatic) in the case of IEE. The dual temperament will be the weakest temperament.
    Do you mean Ne and Fi are sanguine since they are IEE's ego functions?

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    Temperament is based on the leading function (strongest ego function) using this chart
    Fi = Subjective and Perception = Melancholic
    EII and ESI are Melancholic

    Code:
                        Perception
                 Phlegmatic | Sanguine
    Subjective -------------|-------------Objective
                Melancholic | Choleric
                        Judgement
    Last edited by domr; 06-16-2018 at 08:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yours Truly View Post
    Does each function have a temperament?
    That would only be true if you can view each function in an isolated manner, which you can't in reality, only in theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yours Truly View Post
    I mean, would you say Ne is Sanguine and Ti is melancholic or phlegmatic, Se is choleric, etc?

    Sanguine – Ep – and
    Choleric – Ej – and
    Melancholic – Ij – and
    Phlegmatic – Ip – and


    Yes, – sangunic, because without judgement the force of is unfocused, all over the place
    The combination of and a judgement function I'd call choleric.


    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    Code:
                        Perception
                Melancholic | Sanguine
    Subjective -------------|-------------Objective
                 Phlegmatic | Choleric
                        Judgement

    I can't see phlegmatic as subjective judgement. Phlegmatic is not judgemental.


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    I've seen LSE doing test with EIE result. Anything is possible with tests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by falsehope View Post
    I've seen LSE doing test with EIE result. Anything is possible with tests.
    I mean that's pretty accurate. Block wise swapped ego/super-ego blocks.

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    yeah people test as their super ego all the time, the point is however the tests are nevertheless wrong. other things people frequently test as: extinguisher, mirror, benefactor. mainly because the test writers and the test takers both have their own individualized view of what the questions mean, and also because people have a hard time separating out what they really are from what they only imagine themselves to be. if either of those two things weren't the case people would be far more objective in general. and its precisely that people aren't that way that gives rise to personality. another way to put it is, if personality weren't so varied it would be easier to determine personality to the point where personality itself would lose its luster. everyone knows personality exists but to this day people deny that type does, which is just a way to capture the pattern of personality itself. its more popular than not it seems that such a thing is not even possible, so the idea that a test today could ascertain it seems absurd given were such a thing the case you'd think less people would deny type in general

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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    Hi all, I'm trying to type a friend. I always thought she was a SLI but the SOLTI-160 types her as a Beta NF type (something between IEI and EIE), with a VERY strong Ethical preference. She's a lot emotional, but it feels more like highly evident Fi Hidden Agenda and definitely Fi rather than Fe valuing. Also, Fe PoLR and Ip temperament is something I'm sure about. She can completely relate to the SLI descriptions, but not to the IEI ones. What do you think? Can this even be possible?
    Something similar but opposite happened to me with my LSI brother years ago. He used to test as EII! But he only related to LSI and SLI descriptions. He's definitely LSI. I think there may be inherent issues with tests because different people and types seem to see certain questions very differently and respond as such, sometimes skewing results. LSI brother is very sensitive (on a certain level) and he is aware of it. That might have moved his result to "F" instead of "T." The "N" typing was strange though. Again, I blame the tests.

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    Ethicals score frequently different results because of weak T.

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    I am an SLI mistyped as an IEI, so I'll tell you. It's impossible.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    Sanguine +P
    Melancholic -J
    Choleric +J
    Phlegmatic -P

    If they are + than last letter is E
    If they are - than last letter is I
    If they are P than first letter is S/I, second letter is L/E
    If they are J than first letter is L/E, second letter is S/I

    LSI is primarily analytical while SLI is methodical. LSI loves -L (Ti) while SLI only uses -L when necessary.
    This doesn't work for me. I'm phlegmatic-choleric. Melancholic is the one I relate the least to. Being analytical leads to melancholic temperament how???



    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    That would only be true if you can view each function in an isolated manner, which you can't in reality, only in theory.


    Sanguine – Ep – and
    Choleric – Ej – and
    Melancholic – Ij – and
    Phlegmatic – Ip – and


    Yes, – sangunic, because without judgement the force of is unfocused, all over the place
    The combination of and a judgement function I'd call choleric


    I can't see phlegmatic as subjective judgement. Phlegmatic is not judgemental.


    Yeah, active Se with judgment is when I am choleric, that happens to work for me.

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    I was thinking about this and I think the deal with personality is people naturally think of personality in terms of archetypes, and when Jung discovered the archetypes it seemed as if perhaps it was the key to describing personalities in an objective way; but the more I think about it the more I think archetypes and personalities are bigger than language and exist outside it, so the second we try to fit personality, even if its with recourse to collectively understood archetypes, into a linguistic, i.e.: rational, especially thinking, structure, we lose something. it seems like personality, and the archetypes to some extent, will always slip out the back door, because they develop and run ahead of rationality, thus personality can, as Singu rightly points out, only describe past behavior but does not tell us much about the future. In some sense inasmuch as people bind themselves to the past image they might conform to predictions but they have only in essence "given up on" themselves and resigned themselves to a kind of "public office" so to speak. This does not mean typology is worthless... it allows us to at least "catch up" to the present. Allows us to understand ourselves better, but there is a point where like a ladder it has to be discarded because eventually it will only hold you back. People can conform to types and it can be useful to roughly situate them within them when there is a lack of information but those can only be extremely tenuous and provisional categories, to say they extend in a hard and fast manner into the future as a kind of physical determinism is too much unless there is something that truly fixes such a thing in their physical structure. it is hypothesized that such things exist, but I rather think that if they're inert and fixed in that way it is more symptomatic of the person rather than the cause of it. In other words, it is capable of change, people just don't change very often. while this would seem to justify inferences about personality, and indeed it does, it does not describe what must be the case only what is likely given that people become set in their ways or comfortable in their environment. I think it gives up the game too early because it continually holds people to a lower standard than what they're capable of, although such pessimism is more often than not justified, it is harmful if applied to oneself in such a manner

    in essence if you let the archetypes control you they become nothing more than a secondary form of the persona, when its the self that transcends type whose liberation should be the ultimate goal and controlling force in order to truly be healthy and free and the self will always be more than type. thus figuring out type and the archetypes is only an intermediary step along life's journey one should take care not to become trapped by
    Last edited by Bertrand; 06-20-2018 at 09:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I was thinking about this and I think the deal with personality is people naturally think of personality in terms of archetypes, and when Jung discovered the archetypes it seemed as if perhaps it was the key to describing personalities in an objective way; but the more I think about it the more I think archetypes and personalities are bigger than language and exist outside it, so the second we try to fit personality, even if its with recourse to collectively understood archetypes, into a linguistic, i.e.: rational, especially thinking, structure, we lose something. it seems like personality, and the archetypes to some extent, will always slip out the back door, because they develop and run ahead of rationality, thus personality can, as Singu rightly points out, only describe past behavior but does not tell us much about the future. In some sense inasmuch as people bind themselves to the past image they might conform to predictions but they have only in essence "given up on" themselves and resigned themselves to a kind of "public office" so to speak. This does not mean typology is worthless... it allows us to at least "catch up" to the present. Allows us to understand ourselves better, but there is a point where like a ladder it has to be discarded because eventually it will only hold you back. People can conform to types and it can be useful to roughly situate them within them when there is a lack of information but those can only be extremely tenuous and provisional categories, to say they extend in a hard and fast manner into the future as a kind of physical determinism is too much unless there is something that truly fixes such a thing in their physical structure. it is hypothesized that such things exist, but I rather think that if they're inert and fixed in that way it is more symptomatic of the person rather than the cause of it. In other words, it is capable of change, people just don't change very often. while this would seem to justify inferences about personality, and indeed it does, it does not describe what must be the case only what is likely given that people become set in their ways or comfortable in their environment. I think it gives up the game too early because it continually holds people to a lower standard than what they're capable of, although such pessimism is more often than not justified, it is harmful if applied to oneself in such a manner

    in essence if you let the archetypes control you they become nothing more than a secondary form of the persona, when its the self that transcends type whose liberation should be the ultimate goal and controlling force in order to truly be healthy and free and the self will always be more than type. thus figuring out type and the archetypes is only an intermediary step along life's journey one should take care not to become trapped by
    People don't change fast on their weaker functions, it's long-term slow gradual work instead, but when integrating them, it doesn't change type, it just makes the person a more integrated and healthier person. Type is not about trapping yourself in a certain set of behaviours, it's a few general ideas on how cognition works.

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