TE Hidden Agenda

[Delilah]

I've read Expat's description of it, and Ganin's too, and i wanted some more input. How do you think it plays itself out? What have you observed in people that you know?

[Bertrand]

I think the main thing is wanting to be perceived (or really known) as competent, and going out of one's way to reinforce that perception when the opportunity presents itself, but sometimes having the reverse of intended effect by being a bit overzealous and not having as rigorous a handle on the thing as a true expert. a lot of this is bringing in references to a conversation that only superficially relate, going out of way to mention credentials, being the first to come up with a plan and really hoping people adopt it, stuff like that. i always find it cute because it shows they really want things to work out which is all you can really ask from someone. the rest you can figure out as you go anyway. all weak Te valuing types seem to get a big self esteem boost from feeling like important contributors to business projects, and by business I don't necessarily mean money making, I mean whatever they and the people they care about are trying to accomplish. in some sense this is universal but I would say this is a true priority for them. they don't just want to feel like that as a byproduct of other concerted action, they want to know their actual aim is true. in other words they don't see it as their primary goal to lift the mood and having done that are content that they've done their part, they want to know exactly how they can help in a direct sense too and that they have a firm grasp on what the goal is and how it is going to be achieved, to have a say in it, to even set the agenda in some cases (SEEs like this a lot)

[Delilah]

@Bertrand: what about preoccupation with money. Things i worry about for instance are whether i am spending too much, whether i can cut corners somewhere ( i try to live very meagerly), how i can increase my source of income (should i get another job, change fields by learning new skills etc), worries about family's finances (are they living beyond their means? how can they increase the money that comes in etc). This sort of stuff worries me a lot and i was wondering if it was tied to Te Ha.

[Bertrand]

money is interesting because its both Se and Te. money as resource upon which people depend for survival is more power. money as abstract market currency used as a proxy to generate wealth in ever increasing numbers is more Te. to conserve money and worry about its rational allocation because one does not want to be wasteful is more a delta thing, whereas gamma is more about consumption culture and the investments and schemes revolving around that. you can think of delta as being more concerned with an ecological society and gamma as being more concerned with technological and economic expansion... sometimes I think worrying about finances is universal inasmuch as anyone who isn't already comfortably wealthy (and even then) absolutely needs to cover that aspect of life, so some of that is just normal for anyone... I think Te HA would probably be like working up a spending plan or money making idea that is (hopefully) quite clever and looking for acknowledgement of it. I think worrying about family is Fi and concern about survival and power is related to sensing. its hard to know exactly whats going on, but I would say in general worrying in the way you describe is very gamma/delta ethical type worries. a typical domestic scenario I can imagine would be like the Te HA arguing for the right to make the budget and trying super hard on it and really wanting it to work out and to be acknowledged as having done that. whereas the other partner is sort of sitting back watching to make sure it all stays on the rails

[Zero]

IEEs I know are the ones most superficially aware of tech and politics or financial issues related trends and news. But their knowledge seems more focused on what they see as potentially interesting discussion material for future, and they excitedly talk about what they have just heard. They're usually not bookworms like LIEs, don't really gather information like that, they join and subscribe to news resources with headlines summarizing daily news in 10 sentences max and then retelling, as if they are obliged. For example a IEE boy who doesn't even watch football always reads news on who won and what happened, in order to be able to have sth to say if a conversation arises. They're also aware of internet trends for example the songs which have the most views on YouTube or viral videos. That's how they see potential. That's why SLEs are often attractive for them.

Me the LIE on the other hand, usually only care about what is interesting for me personally, and that is basically what is useful or what can be useful. I couldn't care less about football for example, or viral videos on the internet. The number of likes a song on YouTube gets doesn't affect whether I like it or not. I only follow news about currencies and activism in areas I find will actually have impact in future.

So the Te in the IEE is to me like a shell of Te. I don't know based on what values exactly the IEE leads his interests but for me is largely usefulness. Even my interest in history is useful because it inspires me in many ways.
IEE might be interested to listen to a SEI talk about how a dish was made, in detail, for LIE it is torture, and for ESI boring and uninteresting.

The Te in ESI is also more based on a clear mindset. If the ESI is interested in an area of human life they would seek as much information as they can, in that area, and when looking for it dismiss any other potentially interesting area. IEE would easily get distracted by the next shiny idea.

I know a IEE who wants to immigrate, and every day he has a new idea about what he wants to do with his money. Sells a car, buys another, talks with friends concludes this one isn't a good investment, sells it, buys a house, changes his mind sells it, in like 4 months!

Sorry talked too much, also sleepiness has ruined my English skills
I don't think you're a IEE

[Zero]

Btw these IEE money issues are quite funny. Often they find money in old coats and jeans pockets or somehow manage to lose it in the house, and usually they spend all the money they have in their pockets each time they leave the house. On Si pleasures mostly. Either food or clothing or trendy new tech stuff. there is a IEE SLI couple I know, they had returned from a trip. The SLI woman was telling the husband: I really wonder how you would return home if I didn't tell you we need money to get back, probably you'd now be living on the street without me!

[Singu]

All of those things listed above can be applied to virtually any human beings.

And so yet again it's describing nothing.

[Zero]

All of those things listed above can be applied to virtually any human beings.

And so yet again it's describing nothing.

Have you ever met a LSI losing money in their own house? or not having enough cash to return home?

[Kernel]

Btw these IEE money issues are quite funny. Often they find money in old coats and jeans pockets or somehow manage to lose it in the house, and usually they spend all the money they have in their pockets each time they leave the house. On Si pleasures mostly. Either food or clothing or trendy new tech stuff. there is a IEE SLI couple I know, they had returned from a trip. The SLI woman was telling the husband: I really wonder how you would return home if I didn't tell you we need money to get back, probably you'd now be living on the street without me!

That's how an SEE I know acts. When he has money, he goes and spend it all on not very important things, then he find himself with no money for the next days until his next payment, everytime.

[consentingadult]

@Bertrand: what about preoccupation with money. Things i worry about for instance are whether i am spending too much, whether i can cut corners somewhere ( i try to live very meagerly), how i can increase my source of income (should i get another job, change fields by learning new skills etc), worries about family's finances (are they living beyond their means? how can they increase the money that comes in etc). This sort of stuff worries me a lot and i was wondering if it was tied to Te Ha.

No, it is tied to Mobilizing-Ni and Ne-PoLR: a fear, to the extent of certainty, that bad things are going to happen.

[Zero]

That's how an SEE I know acts. When he has money, he goes and spend it all on not very important things, then he find himself with no money for the next days until his next payment, everytime.

Yeah you're right my SEE friend does that to an extent as well, but she spends on things I view as more important related to the IEE. Anyway it might be related to Ti PoLR. SLI and ILI are both good at money management, ILIs make great bankers.

[Delilah]

No, it is tied to Mobilizing-Ni and Ne-PoLR: a fear, to the extent of certainty, that bad things are going to happen.

How so? Do you mind expanding on that?

[Delilah]

No, it is tied to Mobilizing-Ni and Ne-PoLR: a fear, to the extent of certainty, that bad things are going to happen.

Or maybe you could instead talk about TE Ha as you have experienced it? I mean i find what you're saying interesting, but if you could talk about Te Ha that could help with the topic i am trying to investigate/discuss here.

[Bertrand]

i think its sort of like how everyone's mom is ESx, its sort of like as soon as you describe worrying about kids, which is a role anyone can find themselves in, its ESI time, but its more a question of before you had kids is this a pattern that was more or less constant in your life in regard to any relations you found yourself committed to. in other words, did you take on the "ESI role" voluntarily and consistently despite it be strictly speaking unnecessary at the time. if this is a digression from the norm that tells you what you need to know, which is to say you've probably shifted to cover the social role. if its the norm itself then its probably the core of your personality. the problem in typing in general is people tend to identify themselves with their office which is nothing more than a mask, it might as well be "type my persona" and by that I don't necessarily mean super ego of base "real" type but just, "outer manifestation shown to the world", to collapse this into base personality is to simply make "real" precisely what typing tries to uncover. its essentially to give up the true purpose of typing someone, which is to find out who they really are, and hence what they really need, and instead simply identifies them with the needs of the environment they find themselves in, which is itself the cause of a lot of neuroticism (the US is extroverted as hell) etc. its just another version of "we tell you who you are" and Jung was very much against that in his therapy and dream analysis, he said only when he found an answer that was genuinely satisfactory to the patient did he consider his mission accomplished (while at the same time not just telling them whatever they want to hear), he said anything less is to simply impose a method or system on the patient and via the power of suggestion or force simply subordinate them to his theory, which in of itself had little therapuetic effect unless it happened to be the right system for that patient, which is more a matter of luck (as if your patient was your dual so to speak). he said more than a few suicides are caused by a mismatch on this level and the therapy essentially having the reverse of intended effect for this reason. this is why I would not rest until you know the answer is good. people mock that and say intuitives or ethicals are all over the place and can't settle on something, but its simply because they do not subordinate themselves to a system so easily, rather they are looking for a different truth, but I think you can find something to that effect in Jung, in fact that might be one of the only places you can truly find it. these derivative manifestations of Jung are degraded in that sense, having lost some of the integrity in being hardened into forumalae and so forth, and they turn around and blame the patient so to speak, but that is wrong. what they don't realize is they are not as hard working, tough minded, or intelligent as they think, if their entire job is having the reverse of intended effect (neuroticism and suicide) in order to have only made the paperwork look straight

Jung himself was never particularly settled on his own type, and some might say well he was a fool and his system is worthless, but its still points for orientation, perhaps the search never ends, but its in the way of thinking that we develop. many mathematicians proposed problems that they never ultimately solved, but we celebrate them as setting the groundwork for future progress and hail them as geniuses. often I speak badly of static types posing paradoxes, but this is the shadow side of my own way of thinking, which is to say I believe it should be oriented to solving problems not creating them, however they would think they're doing exactly this, which is why we should not be too harsh, as long as its coming from the right place (and perhaps even if its not). the point is it all has its place in the ecology or socion, if you like

[Zero]

Or maybe you could instead talk about TE Ha as you have experienced it? I mean i find what you're saying interesting, but if you could talk about Te Ha that could help with the topic i am trying to investigate/discuss here.

IEEs don't usually talk like this that is more like a LIE ESI thing to say "ok I started a topic so respect that", I do that on threads I start as well. I think if IEE finds something interesting they derail the thread, even their own.
Btw talking about derailing threads, I think supervisors and benefactors share some aspects which makes them look similar in some areas.

[consentingadult]

Or maybe you could instead talk about TE Ha as you have experienced it? I mean i find what you're saying interesting, but if you could talk about Te Ha that could help with the topic i am trying to investigate/discuss here.

You could check out my blog, especially this article:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.co...stive-and.html

This article is a generic perspective on the Mobilizing Function, which helps to understand how I think about these matters:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.co...-function.html

[Number 9 large]

@Bertrand: what about preoccupation with money. Things i worry about for instance are whether i am spending too much, whether i can cut corners somewhere ( i try to live very meagerly), how i can increase my source of income (should i get another job, change fields by learning new skills etc), worries about family's finances (are they living beyond their means? how can they increase the money that comes in etc). This sort of stuff worries me a lot and i was wondering if it was tied to Te Ha.

Seems both ni and te questions as youre asking for an estimation of options

[Delilah]

IEEs don't usually talk like this that is more like a LIE ESI thing to say "ok I started a topic so respect that", I do that on threads I start as well. I think if IEE finds something interesting they derail the thread, even their own.
Btw talking about derailing threads, I think supervisors and benefactors share some aspects which makes them look similar in some areas.

Thank you so much for your posts, i really like reading them and they have a strange positive effect on me

Basically, i'm starting to think that i give up too easily for ESI. Or for Ni-Se for that matter.

For instance, previously i worked in television and i found working there very suffocating, the people would make a sport out of irony (everything was ironic, like when people say 'oh, i only watch that show ironically' - like really?). And people were very jaded, not to mention we weren't doing anything world-altering there, yet there is a sense of self-importance to that industry.

So i took a few classes and switched. Now i'm in art dealing. Which is more of the same, except the egos of the people are really inflated. Someone might just be menopausal but decide to turn that into the next 'great' thing in art. Not that they succeed, mind you, but people try. I just don't find this to be my sort of crowd either, i can't fit in, i'm too "regular joe" or some such.

So now i'm thinking of changing fields yet again. You see what i mean? I give up too easily. And am too sensitive to the people that surround me.

[The Reality Denialist]

LOL. Money is the biggest demotivator there is (in terms of financial security). I would seriously give it a try to do my education level stuff with minimum wage. Good challenge. [although the price for non motivating stuff would be much higher]

[Guillaine]

Could preoccupation be an sp first thing too Delilah? I am not the least concerned with money, but I am quite good with it/confident in my ability to be careful with it so much so that I don't worry if I spend now and then becasue I spend so little usually. I did used to find it in pockets but that hasn't happened for a while! I'm more organised now. I don't spend it the minute I have it, not at all, but i know SEI's and SEE's who can't help it. My ESI sister in law is extremely careful with money in every way, buys only items on special etc. but these things can be upbringing and personal values and maybe the instincts too. I'm sp last.

As far as what we choose to research or find out, personally it's probably stuff that has an emotional connection with my values or experience. Very hard to digest information that doesn't do that.

[Zero]

Thank you so much for your posts, i really like reading them and they have a strange positive effect on me

You're welcome. at least someone doesn't think I'm too sure of myself (all the more reason for being ESI)

Basically, i'm starting to think that i give up too easily for ESI. Or for Ni-Se for that matter.

Maybe you have simply read too much stereotypical comments on Ni-Se...Do you know many ESIs and LIEs IRL? I think they're not so persistent on most things either, simply don't lose their track most of the time. By what you mentioned you have a clear set of values and expectations in your mind and the only reason you hop from one thing to the other seems to be not finding those ideals in the outside world. I am the same. So is every ESI I have met. ESIs usually start a route based on their current state and priorities, but they learn and find the outside world doesn't match their ideals so they make slight but sudden changes again and again to feel like they belong to their life, that's why to some it seems they are so stubborn and against everything. However once they find job security or an environment they find comfortable, they stick to it and work well.

For instance, previously i worked in television and i found working there very suffocating, the people would make a sport out of irony (everything was ironic, like when people say 'oh, i only watch that show ironically' - like really?). And people were very jaded, not to mention we weren't doing anything world-altering there, yet there is a sense of self-importance to that industry.

Television is probably mostly Fe, and the industry might be more Se, there is no Te whatsoever but I think IEEs would do ok in Tv, they are friendly and not really that strict about their moral values, also really enjoy discussing their ideas with various people who either are or look semi smart, even if those ideas are useless andnot world altering.

Someone might just be menopausal but decide to turn that into the next 'great' thing in art. Not that they succeed, mind you, but people try.

hahaha. So basically when there's no profit or usefulness you feel frustrated, that I relate to Te.

So now i'm thinking of changing fields yet again. You see what i mean? I give up too easily. And am too sensitive to the people that surround me.

Starting a route in professions might actually have to do with the family background and as one ages one finds more confidence in the authentic self. So that might not be the best parameter when confused about personality type. Intertype relations should really help. I knew I was LIE not ILI even though I felt like a negativist, because I obviously dualized with ESIs and not SEEs, and SLIs were obviously my supervisors. I think detecting your supervisor can be easy. Also what about quadra values? and clubs. Deltas have a completely different vibe in terms of their social status and the things they notice. Even very simple things, ESIs know how to exercise/eat healthily/care for bodily needs of people around them and IEEs don't really care about any of those. Are SLIs your dual?

And about being sensitive about the people around:
Imagine a normal IEE and ESI in a restaurant with a group of friends(they're not dieting and are not poor or rich). The IEE orders something he really likes from the menu even if it's slightly expensive and fatty, then starts discussing with others, about the ideas which have recently come to his mind. the ESI sits for a few minutes quietly observing the surroundings. The cleanliness of the tables in that restaurant, how the food is served, the clothes of the waiters (clean and suitable or not), level of politeness of the waiters, what kind of people are the ones sitting at the surrounding tables, whether they get a good vibe from the decoration/atmosphere etc etc and then order something rather healthy and not very expensive from the menu. One I know was even noticing the fingernails of the ones serving food, telling me "wow look they are long and dirty" while IEE wouldn't notice that if it's not really obvious. Then as the IEE is talking with everyone about his ideas or most recent news or gossiping about their mutual acquaintances, the ESI mentions a very small hint he has caught from the overall quality of the restaurant and people in it. Like say: "Hmm and have you noticed that these table cloths haven't been washed in a few days" or an observation they have made at that exact moment. while the IEE wouldn't be talking about that moment. he would mostly be talking about things outside of that moment and then judge the restaurant based on whether the dish was delicious or not. (also obvious differences in terms of asking/declaring dichotomy in sentences.)
And then when the ESI has made some comments based on their observations, they will get some supervisory comments from the IEE, something mostly meaning "come on, we're trying to enjoy our time and food here, don't think too much about that stuff" and the ESI will be like "Hmm he's right I'm ruining the friendly vibe" and then start talking about something else