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Thread: Volition in gamma SF

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    aka He Died With a Felafel Delilah's Avatar
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    Default Volition in gamma SF

    I wondered how you've experienced Se in gamma, particularly in the SFs?

    Share any experiences (examples are always helpful), good or bad.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    aka He Died With a Felafel Delilah's Avatar
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    My current view is that gamma volition is more about business volition (not necessarily in the profit sense, but that too). So like seizing an opportunity in business for instance, also in terms of a friendship 'opportunity' (befriending someone when there is competition for instance), grabbing an opportunity to speak up your own qualifications, grabbing an opportunity to lead a group etc.

    What do you think so far?
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    yes gamma is about taking risks on opportunities in order to turn a profit (and not just money wise, but basically do something with a return on investment, whatever domain it may be in), but its this ability to speculate on odds and win that characterizes gamma, whereas Se Ti is more about deterministic returns. Delta is not about determinism but is more conservative because they're not trying to maximize profit, rather maximize leisure. thus they are less risky since its not "go big or go home" its "go only as big as you have to so you can go home". Beta is more about figuring out exactly what covers every possible angle then running it into the ground. Te can "leap" across gaps which is what drives Singu nuts when he decries inductive reasoning. Any of the strong Te types can do this, but alpha and beta prefer to work according to a structure so they don't have to. Whereas gamma and delta use that ability to get shit done without having to flesh out a comprehensive scheme in order to work, so they can focus on other stuff, mainly Fi. Fe is more ad hoc in its relationships in the same way Te is toward logic. the benefit of Fi is the ability to flesh out relationships and not bounce around so much

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    also in terms of a friendship 'opportunity' (befriending someone when there is competition for instance), grabbing an opportunity to speak up your own qualifications, grabbing an opportunity to lead a group etc.
    These match up with my experiences of gamma SFs very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    the benefit of Fi is the ability to flesh out relationships and not bounce around so much
    That would mainly characterize Fi leading types I think. xEEs for example flesh out relationships while bouncing around at the same time. LxEs aim to flesh out relationships but can't do it very well on their own and have Fe role which helps them socialize and schmooze around if they need to. xLIs float around a bit but just flesh out relationships while not bouncing around too much, mainly because they can do the former alright but not the latter well at all, so they concentrate their forces.

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    yeah there's a lot of truth to that, its what lends IEE its character more as psychologist than pure humanist, and SEE as politician more than guardian

    it really depends on what we mean by bounce, there's an over/under distinction and then there's breadth. xEE has more breadth than ExI but they nevertheless both proceed from the ground up, whereas, within the ethical domain, I view Fe as bouncing across the surface like a beachball on the sea. I think this is precisely why they're called "heavy v light" humanitarians because its that heavy quality that is less bouncy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    My current view is that gamma volition is more about business volition (not necessarily in the profit sense, but that too).
    Their Se is blocked with Fi so they express volition more in internalities rather than with Ti which is an externality. In other words gamma SFs will seem more abstract and less direct in their expression of Se sometimes (compared to Se/Ti)(as will gamma NTs actually but it will be unconscious for them)... even though, ironically, directly dealing with people and emotions as a sensor is quite externally observable. It depends on how you look at it I guess. It just means they tend to be direct and purposeful when it comes to people.

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    first thing that came to my mind was that ESIs and SEEs use their Se to push the people they care about in directions they think are to their benefit
    ESIs push people around them sometimes, when they think relations around them need readjustments to decrease tension and stress, or when they find an individual interesting or useful to build relations with, creatively adjusting psychological distance by their Se, SEEs surround themselves with useful/powerful people, or people they think will be useful in future, by being charming and fun, they also push me when I'm being lazy or doubting my skills. Both seem to have a will to win in different situations, whether it's playing games or succeeding in life according to one's own understanding of success as an individual.
    It seems to me that gamma SFs are more creative with Se than beta STs, with the betas, it is more direct and harsh in a way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    My current view is that gamma volition is more about business volition (not necessarily in the profit sense, but that too). So like seizing an opportunity in business for instance, also in terms of a friendship 'opportunity' (befriending someone when there is competition for instance), grabbing an opportunity to speak up your own qualifications, grabbing an opportunity to lead a group etc.

    What do you think so far?
    This makes sense. Beta ST volition is much oritented at gaining power in hierarchical structures in comparison. Gamma SF voliton is more oriented at turning around/manipulating real life situations for "profit" (not necessarily financial).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    Te can "leap" across gaps which is what drives Singu nuts when he decries inductive reasoning.
    lol, you don't even know how induction works. So, have you actually read or understood Hume and the "problem of induction"? Was he anti-Te? The mr. empiricist Hume? lol?

    This is a famous "joke" made by Karl Popper, to point out the absurdity of inductivism:

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Popper
    The belief that science proceeds from observation to theory is still so widely and so firmly held that my denial of it is often met with incredulity. I have even been suspected of being insincere- of denying what nobody in his senses would doubt.

    But in fact the belief that we can start with pure observation alone, without anything in the nature of a theory is absurd; as may be illustrated by the story of the man who dedicated his life to natural science, wrote down everything he could observe, and bequeathed his priceless collection of observations to the Royal Society to be used as evidence. This story should show us that though beetles may profitably be collected, observations may not.

    Twenty-five years ago I tried to bring home the same point to a group of physics students in Vienna by beginning a lecture with the following instructions : 'Take pencil and paper; carefully observe, and write down what you have observed!' They asked, of course, what I wanted them to observe. Clearly the instruction, 'Observe!' is absurd. (It is not even idiomatic, unless the object of the transitive verb can be taken as understood.) Observation is always selective. It needs a chosen object, a definite task, an interest, a point of view, a problem. And its description presupposes a descriptive language, with property words; it presupposes similarity and classification, which in their turn presuppose interests, points of view, and problems.
    I mean really, what new information do you think can be gained by extrapolating generalizations from observations? You will spend your entire life making observations and updating data, because guess what? You're missing your hypothesis!

    So it goes like this, to infinity:

    Te(1) -> Te(2) -> Te(3) -> Te(4)...

    But you will never reach a conclusion, because you HAVE made no conclusion! Because updating data in of itself, don't have any meaning or purpose.
    Last edited by Singu; 04-20-2018 at 07:34 AM.

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    It struck me today while talking to ESI guy about last year events, he said "It just looks like yesterday, like no time has passed at all", and last week while talking to my sister about the same thing she said "It's like all of this happened yesterday eh?"... and I didn't know what to answer tbh, but I sensed the Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    It struck me today while talking to ESI guy about last year events, he said "It just looks like yesterday, like no time has passed at all", and last week while talking to my sister about the same thing she said "It's like all of this happened yesterday eh?"... and I didn't know what to answer tbh, but I sensed the Ni
    This is probably NTR.

    Time passes faster as you get older. I remember summers when I was a kid in grade school that lasted a lifetime, days that seemed to last for weeks. This was when every other impression I had was new and worth exploring and remembering. The days were very full.

    When you've had your 10,000 cup of coffee and driven a car and gotten paychecks and paid taxes and have your fifteenth job and have several ex's and talked to uncounted bartenders, you tend to ignore your repeat experiences. Soon, you are ignoring most of your experiences and the time flies by.

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    aha could be NTR sure, I just thought it was a weird coincidence that they both commented the same thing in the same way. I connected it to their type because it was an intimate and inspired situation, so the Ni HA of ESI could have well fitted that.

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    I've observed that ISFj and ESFp seem to have an almost unconscious approach of "What's actually in it for me?" and "Is the gain worth my effort?". I've known a few who were unhappily married because the answer to one of the questions was yes at one particular period of time and they didn't bother to look beyond the horizon. Whimsically, I've wondered if they fall in love with a lifestyle and the spouse just happens to come along with it. ISFjs seem far more planned but less likely to end up content than ESFp, but both are equally deliberate. INTp and ENTj tend to only focus on those questions when they're under stress or in a period of weakness. I'm sure all types also ask these questions but I've found it rather prevalent in more than a few of these two types.......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I've observed that ISFj and ESFp seem to have an almost unconscious approach of "What's actually in it for me?" and "Is the gain worth my effort?". I've known a few who were unhappily married because the answer to one of the questions was yes at one particular period of time and they didn't bother to look beyond the horizon. Whimsically, I've wondered if they fall in love with a lifestyle and the spouse just happens to come along with it. ISFjs seem far more planned but less likely to end up content than ESFp, but both are equally deliberate. INTp and ENTj tend to only focus on those questions when they're under stress or in a period of weakness. I'm sure all types also ask these questions but I've found it rather prevalent in more than a few of these two types.......

    a.k.a. I/O
    .

    Damn. This explains so much. “Yes at one particular period of time.” I’ve seen this very thing multiple times.

    This inability in ISFj’s to assess multiple futures forces them to fall back on historical precedents to protect themselves.

    I was having a conversation with an ESI-Se and it very quickly (and surprisingly) moved into mutual sexually-charged banter, and I suggested that we get together for a meal or a walk and she said “No way.”
    I said, “No way? What? It’s just lunch. Or a walk in the park. There are people around, you’d be perfectly safe.” Because she was feeling it, too.
    She said, “If we went out, I’d have to introduce you to my father, and that’s not happening.”

    She was thirty-seven, and she needs to have her father meet her dates?

    That was a year ago. Last week she was visiting the house across the street while I was talking to the mailman in the front yard. She demonstrably looked toward us before going in.

    To be candid, I actually feel like I have to assess the appropriateness of my dates. I think that many of my duals would be OK with a fling, but I feel that I would not. This may change with continued celibacy, though. Lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I think that many of my duals would be OK with a fling, but I feel that I would not. This may change with continued celibacy, though. Lol.
    Lol, of course the IxFx females are the ones most into flings and temporary shabangs that have nothing else going for them.

    You're effectively a saint for going through with the celibacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Lol, of course the IxFx females are the ones most into flings and temporary shabangs that have nothing else going for them.

    You're effectively a saint for going through with the celibacy.
    @silke, I feel like I’m somewhere between lust and caution. On the caution side, I don’t want to just bang anyone. That’s not good for them or for me. On the lust side, though, I think the tide is rising. Last night I dreamt of meeting a woman and going straight to bed with her (which is a standard dream I haven’t dreamed for a while), the newly separated EII secretary is looking dangerously good, and I’m wondering if I should call an ESI I know......just for a companionable dinner and some conversation, you understand.

    I keep telling myself to hold out for quality, but I’m actually pretty far from being a saint.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-24-2018 at 12:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I was having a conversation with an ESI-Se and it very quickly (and surprisingly) moved into mutual sexually-charged banter
    I saw this style of communication between ESI girl and SEE guy. I found that talking as too vulgar, but seems it was ok for them. I assumed they have feelings or relations. I suppose there was a sexual interest at least from one side, while other understood this and could to support it, or to express own playful attitudes too.
    I never noticed this from other quadras doing publicly or with not very close ones. Two S types with high interest to sexual themes, assured in ethical field to talk such publicly with mb not so close people. Alpha having Fe would prefer being more restrained on public, but those just did what they wanted without play in respectful image. Mb NT gammas may behave similarly with gamma SF. It's also hard to imagine same in delta or beta doing on public. Possibly funny gamma specifics.

    > She said, “If we went out, I’d have to introduce you to my father, and that’s not happening.”
    She was thirty-seven, and she needs to have her father meet her dates?

    She could say this as an excuse. You could to agree just to see what would happen then.

    > To be candid, I actually feel like I have to assess the appropriateness of my dates. I think that many of my duals would be OK with a fling, but I feel that I would not. This may change with continued celibacy, though. Lol.

    the nature will get what relates to it you do a break after previous relations and then you should allow yourself to be lesser calculating and cautious. there are many good girls for you. one of them awaits you to make her happy
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    It struck me today while talking to ESI guy about last year events, he said "It just looks like yesterday, like no time has passed at all", and last week while talking to my sister about the same thing she said "It's like all of this happened yesterday eh?"... and I didn't know what to answer tbh, but I sensed the Ni
    Ohhh i also usually say the same thing lol 😂

    Like when i came back to my hometown after 8 months, im saying like, it doesn't feel like 8 months.. It just feel like yesterday..

    Or when i was working for 8 months.. In the job i hate...it doesn't feel 8 months at all!! It feels like 8years!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    .
    To be candid, I actually feel like I have to assess the appropriateness of my dates. I think that many of my duals would be OK with a fling, but I feel that I would not. This may change with continued celibacy, though. Lol.
    Well, that was my opinion two weeks ago, and my saintliness is wearing thin. At this point, I'm thinking less about the ethical consequences of having sex with an ESI who is conveniently close and possible but whom I will never marry, and more about scratching an itch. Or just getting some intimacy, dammit.

    This is exactly why people get into trouble. Before I get to that point, I need to meet an ESI who is long-term material.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I've observed that ISFj and ESFp seem to have an almost unconscious approach of "What's actually in it for me?" and "Is the gain worth my effort?". I've known a few who were unhappily married because the answer to one of the questions was yes at one particular period of time and they didn't bother to look beyond the horizon. Whimsically, I've wondered if they fall in love with a lifestyle and the spouse just happens to come along with it. ISFjs seem far more planned but less likely to end up content than ESFp, but both are equally deliberate. INTp and ENTj tend to only focus on those questions when they're under stress or in a period of weakness. I'm sure all types also ask these questions but I've found it rather prevalent in more than a few of these two types.......

    a.k.a. I/O
    OK, @Rebelondeck, tell me if I've got this straight.

    With ESI's, it's not about long term consequences or avoiding courses of action because they can clearly see the logical end points of said actions, but rather it's about the immediate benefits to them, and they just take a long time to make a decision because they are internally aligning their values to what they want to do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    OK, @Rebelondeck, tell me if I've got this straight.

    With ESI's, it's not about long term consequences or avoiding courses of action because they can clearly see the logical end points of said actions, but rather it's about the immediate benefits to them, and they just take a long time to make a decision because they are internally aligning their values to what they want to do?
    Yes, because they can be rather shortsighted and initially look at things somewhat superficially - what's the immediate situation, commitment or benefit usually comprises their horizons; but they'll frequently spend lifetimes regretting bad decisions. Like all Ijs, they don't think well on their feet so if they're forced to make a decision on the spot, it will likely be negative based on immediately available information (their horizons). Also, when they get too close, they can't see very well which may seem rather paradoxical for a person who looks mostly at the near-field.......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    no difference with the beta
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Well, that was my opinion two weeks ago, and my saintliness is wearing thin. At this point, I'm thinking less about the ethical consequences of having sex with an ESI who is conveniently close and possible but whom I will never marry, and more about scratching an itch. Or just getting some intimacy, dammit.
    If God wanted you to be a saint, you'd know.

    Re: the ESI. Just tell her that you find her really attractive, but...you can't commit to a relationship Give off the vibes that you have another chick waiting in the wings. Even if it's not true, she will probably pursue you to "make sure" that you date her instead of someone else.
    You know that you are dead when someone puts you into a box and you are unable to devise a way to get out of it




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    Quote Originally Posted by Destroyer of Wyrds View Post
    If God wanted you to be a saint, you'd know.

    Re: the ESI. Just tell her that you find her really attractive, but...you can't commit to a relationship Give off the vibes that you have another chick waiting in the wings. Even if it's not true, she will probably pursue you to "make sure" that you date her instead of someone else.
    Smart, man. That is exactly what is happening, and not at all what I would have expected. It is clear to me that you have a much better sense of how people will behave than I do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Smart man. That is exactly what is happening, and not at all what I would have expected. It is clear to me that you have a much better sense of how people will behave than I do.
    Never give away your commitment card for free, because it is your leverage over the females of our species.

    She has to work for your time and affection if she is to appreciate them. Never invest any resources into a woman unless she has slept with you, and don't jump into love too soon. She needs to know that more sex from her = more commitment from you. That is the law of love. Women seem to view men as trophies to capture - we are bright, shiny things they can show off to other women, much like a pair of new shoes, and again much like shoes, some men can confer a lot more status to a woman than others. If you want to turn this to your advantage, don't be a plain old cock. Your aim is to be a limited edition luxury designer cock. That cock is a cock the women will kill each other to taste.
    Last edited by Spermatozoa; 05-15-2018 at 01:23 PM.
    You know that you are dead when someone puts you into a box and you are unable to devise a way to get out of it




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    Quote Originally Posted by Destroyer of Wyrds View Post
    Never give away your commitment card for free, because it is your leverage over the females of our species.

    She has to work for your time and affection, if she is to appreciate them. Never invest any resources into a woman unless she has slept with you, and don't jump into love too soon. She needs to know that more sex = more commitment. That is the rule of love for men. In the past, I made the mistake of being too eager and pushy. Women seem to view men as trophies to capture - we are bright, shiny, things they can show off to other women, much like a pair of new shoes. And much like the shoes, some men can confer a lot more status to a woman than others. So don't be a plain old cock. You want to be a limited edition luxury designer cock. The cock all the women will hysterically fight each other to the death over.
    This is actually a perfect description of the dynamics of my relationship with my LSI ex-GF. I mean, it's actually perfect. I told her from Day One that I was looking for someone else, and this didn't really seem to bother her (except she would sometimes accuse me of cheating on her during business trips but I assured her that she was the only one I was sleeping with, and if I found someone else, I'd tell her about it) and she was incredibly warm and attentive. Emotionally, we were good. It was the Fe drama she needed that ended it for me.

    I think ESI's are built a bit differently. You still have to tell them the absolute truth, as with LSI's, but I think they are much slower to jump into things, and are much less forward. Until they make up their minds.

    However, I could be totally wrong about this. It's just how it seems to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This is actually a perfect description of the dynamics of my relationship with my LSI ex-GF. I mean, it's actually perfect. I told her from Day One that I was looking for someone else, and this didn't really seem to bother her (except she would sometimes accuse me of cheating on her during business trips but I assured her that she was the only one I was sleeping with, and if I found someone else, I'd tell her about it) and she was incredibly warm and attentive. Emotionally, we were good. It was the Fe drama she needed that ended it for me.

    I think ESI's are built a bit differently. You still have to tell them the absolute truth, as with LSI's, but I think they are much slower to jump into things, and are much less forward. Until they make up their minds.

    However, I could be totally wrong about this. It's just how it seems to me.
    Speaking of LSIs. I met one at a local supermarket the day before yesterday called Toni, who served me at checkout. She was a burly gym girl type with her hair tied back in a bun (all LSI-Se women seem to be variations on this theme for some reason), and I caught her checking me out a lot with her wandering eyes. Based on the conversation we had, I think she was attempting to signal her virtue to me in a Fe-DS kind of way, too. She expressed empathy for old ladies who had been wrongly accused of shoplifting, and then incredulous LSI "I can't imagine why anyone would steal food, who would do that?". I smirked, thinking, she has no idea.

    Anyway I got a good vibe so will go back same time next Monday and ask her out if she's still there.
    You know that you are dead when someone puts you into a box and you are unable to devise a way to get out of it




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