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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    A Jungian definition of Fe (as opposed to a socionic one)
    It's heresy, as Socioinics is Jung's typology.

    Jung's core types theory, including definitions of functions are used in Socionics, are part of it. At best they can be expanded in Socionics, but not to have a contradiction. Augustinavichiute's works have lower priority than Jung and if something in her descriptions looks as not fitting to Jung's core types theory - it's wrong or an expansion. If you think other - you do not understand the core theory or do not see how it is on practice.

    Fe is about objective emotional value of objects. Such is at Jung and is in Socionics, which can only add the other view on the same, but not to reject.

    If you relate by "other" definition to expanded Jung's functions descriptions - they are secondary, not definitions. They does not matter much, including because Jung not always is clear to be interpereted correctly, besides could be wrong in wider interpretation and using of the own theory. He misunderstood own type, for example. Augustinavichiute is also not perfect to trust her blindly or could be misunderstood. While what wrote other authors - mb just anything.

    Those who claim that Socionics is not Jung's typology: 1) are wrong, 2) sabotage the spreading of Socionics. Without Jung Socionics is nothing.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Metaphysicist thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    You mean the definition about judging what's to be rather than just perceiving what is?
    That isn't even the classical socionics definition, it's a Myers-Briggs definition. The socionics definition (see here) is about rigidity vs. spontaneity, which doesn't fit so great for types with high Fe and Ne like EIE.

    The dichotomies of the information types are absolutely part of the basics. You can't say that they matter less. Without them, the relationships of their dynamics don't exist either.
    I did not say the dichotomies don't matter, it's their classical descriptions which are incorrect. I see the correct definition of the dichotomies as a future goal for socionics, not something that is already set in stone. The definitions of the individual IM elements are far more clear.

    Haha, "information about states", nice abstract LII view of Fe. I'd actually be ok with that definition if it specified what kind of states, but I guess you just left that out. I haven't visited your site in a while so not sure if you have it on there beyond "internal states" which is still too undefined to me. Since Intuition deals with them too.
    Sorry, yes I meant internal states (of sentient information processors aka people). Te deals with external world-states.
    Last edited by thehotelambush; 04-24-2018 at 11:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    It's heresy, as Socioinics is Jung's typology.

    Jung's core types theory, including definitions of functions are used in Socionics, are part of it. At best they can be expanded in Socionics, but not to have a contradiction. Augustinavichiute's works have lower priority than Jung and if something in her descriptions looks as not fitting to Jung's core types theory - it's wrong or an expansion. If you think other - you do not understand the core theory or do not see how it is on practice.

    Fe is about objective emotional value of objects. Such is at Jung and is in Socionics, which can only add the other view on the same, but not to reject.

    If you relate by "other" definition to expanded Jung's functions descriptions - they are secondary, not definitions. They does not matter much, including because Jung not always is clear to be interpereted correctly, besides could be wrong in wider interpretation and using of the own theory. He misunderstood own type, for example. Augustinavichiute is also not perfect to trust her blindly or could be misunderstood. While what wrote other authors - mb just anything.

    Those who claim that Socionics is not Jung's typology: 1) are wrong, 2) sabotage the spreading of Socionics. Without Jung Socionics is nothing.
    And you see yourself as LSE after this post that's Ti overload......

    But of course it would be hard for you to retype now after having declared yourself as the best typer on here countless times.

    I happen to agree with how to prioritize here to avoid contradictions btw, etc. I don't really agree that Jung mistyped himself, he was Ti-Ni (LII in jungian version of the system) alright.

    PS: It is weird really... you lost a lot of my respect with your previous post where you were really fucking hypocritical and avoiding pure objectivity, but then you write stuff that is (almost) the exact same way I think about it. (Well, I do think about it in a more detailed way because I digged deeper than you but the basic principles are good mostly.)


    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    That isn't even the classical socionics definition, it's a Myers-Briggs definition. The socionics definition (see here) is about rigidity vs. spontaneity, which doesn't fit so great for types with high Fe and Ne like EIE.
    That wasn't a fucking Myers-Briggs definition. It was Jung. And no, the socionics definition is NOT simply about rigidity vs spontaneity, even the link you are giving isn't defining it as that. You said I was giving you a description and not a definition, well now you did the same with this lol. The stuff on that link that discusses rigidity/spontaneity is a description, not a definition (list of characteristics).

    The definitions on that page:

    "Rationality in socionics is a perceptual quality defined by a focus on actions and emotions. In contrast, Irrationality means a focus on states of mind and body."

    "Rational types are defined as any type that has a rational element (T/F) in its first or leading function.
    Irrational types are defines as any type that has an irrational element (N/S) in its first or leading function."


    Alright we really really have fundamentally different views, shockingly different actually.


    I did not say the dichotomies don't matter, it's their classical descriptions which are incorrect. I see the correct definition of the dichotomies as a future goal for socionics, not something that is already set in stone. The definitions of the individual IM elements are far more clear.
    Alright, just curious, what do you see as wrong with the dichotomies?

    And you are intentionally not answering me about Van der Hoop lol! Why?


    Sorry, yes I meant internal states (of sentient information processors aka people). Te deals with external world-states.
    No worries. The internal states that Intuition sees, how do you define those states?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Now i really feel provoked to say lots of Ni stuff. You havent seen anything yet. ☺

    But seriously its simply a fact that certain people develop weak functons and can used them in a limited way like in this forum. Also writing is an exellent medium for this.

    My best hint for anybody wanting to type me is to look at the blockings. Do i have NT or ST blocking. Or do i seem Se seeking or Ne seeking.
    NT or ST blocking... You sound like an SLE would do good to you to pull you out of your mind and your obscure rabbitholey thinking a bit

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    I love @Myst so much.

    NOTE: This post is not an ass-kissing post, I repeat, this post is not an ass-kissing post.
    Currently trying to regain what I lost. And if that's not possible, at least gain new things while trying to.

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    Metaphysicist thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    That wasn't a fucking Myers-Briggs definition. It was Jung.
    It doesn't really matter, it's also irrelevant to my interpretation of socionics.

    And no, the socionics definition is NOT simply about rigidity vs spontaneity, even the link you are giving isn't defining it as that. You said I was giving you a description and not a definition, well now you did the same with this lol. The stuff on that link that discusses rigidity/spontaneity is a description, not a definition (list of characteristics).

    The definitions on that page:

    "Rationality in socionics is a perceptual quality defined by a focus on actions and emotions. In contrast, Irrationality means a focus on states of mind and body."

    "Rational types are defined as any type that has a rational element (T/F) in its first or leading function.
    Irrational types are defines as any type that has an irrational element (N/S) in its first or leading function."
    It's a description yes, although the list of traits is closer to what I usually see in socionics literature. "a focus on actions and emotions" isn't saying much really.

    Alright, just curious, what do you see as wrong with the dichotomies?
    Like I said, the one I mentioned doesn't fit EIEs very well. The "judging/perceiving" interpretation (which is definitely used in MBTI also) overlaps with Se/Ni vs. Si/Ne.

    And you are intentionally not answering me about Van der Hoop lol! Why?
    I already told you I'm not interested in wasting my time reading Jungian sources, the problem you claim it solves doesn't exist for me.

    No worries. The internal states that Intuition sees, how do you define those states?
    I wouldn't say that intuition sees states, more like mental imagery/forms or possibilities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Don't see @Number 9 large's Se. Let alone together with D...

    I think N makes sense for @Olimpia.

    If @Aylen is H, she has to be EIE-H. No way she's IEI-H, she's far from being that self-submerged.

    @Tallmo might be IEI, definitely surprising amount of Ni.

    So far Deer <3 made the most convincing argument for me being D but she did not seem to be using the DCNH I see some people using here. I have no idea which one you guys are using tbh. I read Gulenko's D and I would not say that is best fit . She and I spoke about it on voice but I wish she had written her perspective on it down. H would probably be best fit but I can see a bit of myself in all the IEI descriptions but not all the EIE descriptions.


    Dominant

    The Mocking Lyricist
    Key words: Dreaminess Fun and humor Conciliation Defiance

    Prototypes: people subtly mocking flaws of the existing system


    This person is characterized by impulsiveness, and can sometimes be abrupt in his actions. He can abandon the initiated tasks and then get back to them after a while. He is internally restless and his desires are contradictory. He has violent mood swings going from laughter to tears and vice versa. Actively pushes his ideas forward and defends them. When he calms down, becomes perceptive to advice or tips which he follows thoroughly… until his next emotional outburst.


    He likes to talk about various unusual phenomena or emerging events. While sensing the danger, his anxious mood is conveyed to others. At the same time he does not lose faith in the victory and can cheer up those who lose hope and give them an emotional boost. His moral sufferings are closely connected to his physicality.


    Sudden changes do not scare him. In extreme situations, his fearlessness in front of danger provokes admiration or surprise within his peers. He does not obey and resists external pressure, he is capable of insisting on his opinions quite rigidly.
    Wants to be practical and a house person but can’t sustain regular rhythm of work for a long time. Often spends too much money, can buy unneeded items under the influx of emotions. People who are greedy have low value in his book.
    Often ironic and sarcastic, but prefers to present even the unpleasant things as a joke, with a smile. Extremely in need of praise and encouragement, he is also sensitive about criticism regarding his work. He gets offended if his efforts stay unnoticed. Tends to lead in personal interactions.




    As far as H for me, I have read IEI and EIE. If I put them together and remove some things from each that do not fit me at all I have my subtype.


    Harmonizing subtype

    The Imaginative Mentor

    Prototypes: prophets and esoteric interpreters/readers, like Nostradamus or Blavatskaya

    A person with a very developed imagination, sees what is happening around in terms of fate or hidden meaning. Waits for an event or a sign announcing the beginning of change. Prudent and farsighted, can correctly allocate activities in time. Can wait the right moment. Inclined to pessimism which he prefers to call common sense.

    Often interested in the unusual, mysterious phenomena. Often anticipates/guesses future developments. His well-being and mood change a lot. He is distrustful of information that does not fit his view of the phenomenon or person. Slow to make decisions, weighs in a very detailed way all the "pros" and "cons". Can hardly reach internal balance, so he is very annoyed and irritated when someone breaks his rest.

    Can listen to people during quite a long time, will give his opinion unobtrusively without providing any straight answer. Often mediates between disputing parties while they are trying to win him over, each to their side. Can preach two conflicting friends for a long time by explaining the position or the motivation of the opponent to each of them.
    Tends to prefer measured and relaxed way of life. Undemanding but disorganized at home. Inclined to aesthetic expression in his writings or handicrafts. Pretty suspicious, is afraid of diseases and injuries. Can be minimalistic but appreciates a lot comfort and coziness. It is difficult for him to systematically take care of his health.

    Likes to do many things at once. Moody and picky when having a choice, be it in clothing or in personal relationships. Unpleasant things are usually put off. Pretty unsure of himself, scared of being ridiculed or rejected. Critical towards their physique and abilities.

    Spends a lot of time alone, while reading rare authors or listening to special music. At such moments his imagination shows him unusual events or archetypes. Often suffers from recurrent depression or panic attacks. Is somehow attracted by the dark sides of life.



    Harmonizing subtype

    The Dreaming Lyricist

    Prototypes: naive dreamers about the bright future like Manilov in Gogol's "Dead Souls"

    Soft and considerate person. A soulful poetic personality, a dreamer and a romantic deep inside. Has refined perception of the external world. Willing to share his views and concerns with others. Seeking understanding, sympathy and support.
    His forecasting ability is very well developed. He worries over the dangerous development of events, gradually prepares others for the future. Does not like to hurry and bustle as he thinks that every bullet has its billet, don’t run from fate. Although he notes all the imperfections of the world, he truly believes in the victory of good over evil, he believes in the bright future.

    Usually gets interested in various philosophical and mystical arts, historical literature, non-traditional religions. Has got a good image memory. Is somewhat mannered in communication.

    Dresses tastefully, has inner elegant look even when he neglects his appearance. Takes care about his own health as much as of his close ones. Adapts well to difficult living conditions. Has the ability to relax even in a tense atmosphere.


    Last edited by Aylen; Yesterday at 06:58 AM.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temper, irritate him."


    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  7. #1407
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    man I hope gulenko DCNHs the rest of the socion soon

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    My perception of DCNH subs
    D organizes
    N maintains

    C creates
    H synthesizes


    It is actually quite ridiculously apparent from general empirical portraits. The main problem with Gulenko is that he tries to obfuscate things left spinner ways so hard that it is bit detrimental to him. Anyways I do find interesting stuff in it to be used in ways. Gulenko himself is clear C.
    Last edited by Troll Nr 007; 04-24-2018 at 08:26 PM.
    extrospection > introspection

    Head type as in being truly head type and probably 7>5. Too divergent, scattered and expressive for typical 5 and that is the preferred way although long term focus usually helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    It doesn't really matter, it's also irrelevant to my interpretation of socionics.
    It does matter which system one is referring to.

    Sure, you have a different interpretation of Socionics, yes.


    It's a description yes, although the list of traits is closer to what I usually see in socionics literature. "a focus on actions and emotions" isn't saying much really.
    I quoted more than just "a focus on actions and emotions".

    It's interesting you don't find it a meaningful dichotomy, while I experience it as a significant factor in practice too... the difference between Rationals and Irrationals. Pretty fundamental.


    Like I said, the one I mentioned doesn't fit EIEs very well. The "judging/perceiving" interpretation (which is definitely used in MBTI also) overlaps with Se/Ni vs. Si/Ne.
    I actually experience EIE to be more consistent and more stiff so to speak than IEI. These characteristics of Rationality do seem to fit EIE well.

    Decisive/Judicious isn't about the same thing as Rationality/Irrationality but yeah, it sounds deceptively similar in some aspects.


    I already told you I'm not interested in wasting my time reading Jungian sources, the problem you claim it solves doesn't exist for me.
    You don't recognize the problem.

    What is your problem with Jung btw, I'm curious, what do you see that's so much better in Socionics?


    I wouldn't say that intuition sees states, more like mental imagery/forms or possibilities.
    I was referring to this sort of thing:

    Ni as creative function of EIE (ENFj; Hamlet) and LIE (ENTj; Jack London) - like to find internally contradictory people, "dig" in them and create in them internal harmony and mood. They make for great artists, because they know how to and love to "become" one with an image of a man and play a role from his worldview. They are able to understand the essence of complex internal situations and make for potentially good analysts. Often it is difficult to find employment for them, as their "product" is the internal conflicts of man and essence, and to penetrate so far, into "the soul" of man, you just need to have permission. Often become unstable, vulnerable, fragile, just so that they can harmonize themselves, and sometimes can start to torment and tear into themselves and dig into their own issues. They have a difficulty finding adequate application to their creative function in the world, since it is not in high demand - not everyone wants someone else to dig into their internal states. Their product - bold ideas, principles, systems of belief and knowledge that they bring into the world and promote. But they do this beautifully, creatively, elegantly, not forcibly imposing them but promoting them in interesting ways. Search for internally contradictory situations, like to grasp their essence. Often realize themselves in art and writing, as this is also a good way to use the function. They are able to enter into various internal psychological states. A good speaker, as he is able to influence positively on the internal state of others. Their product is the "wholeness" of the internal state, and therefore they can find success in field of psychology, because it means that they are the healers of souls. In life they loved to dramatize everything. Everyone around becomes informed about the slightest change in their mood or internal state. Usually they are very fond of "making mountains out of molehills", for them this is a way to find work for their second function. The more they become exposed - the greater the realization of their personality in the world.

    (see the bolded parts especially)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    So far Deer <3 made the most convincing argument for me being D but she did not seem to be using the DCNH I see some people using here. I have no idea which one you guys are using tbh. I read Gulenko's D and I would not say that is best fit . She and I spoke about it on voice but I wish she had written her perspective on it down. H would probably be best fit but I can see a bit of myself in all the IEI descriptions but not all the EIE descriptions.
    I just doubt IEI-H is you at all. IEI is ok, but IEI-H...not really


    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    My perception of DCNH subs
    D organizes
    N maintains

    C creates
    H synthesizes


    It is actually quite ridiculously apparent from general empirical portraits. The main problem with Gulenko is that he tries to obfuscate things left spinner ways so hard that it is bit detrimental to him. Anyways I do find interesting stuff in it to be used in ways. Gulenko himself is clear C.
    Based on these short definitions I do all of D, N, C at times. Now, do I do D or N more as the main overarching pattern... oh yeahh, D. Just maintaining things is boring af. I always need to be doing more than that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    man I hope gulenko DCNHs the rest of the socion soon
    I do like the beta DCNHs and DCNH in general. It all makes analysis more complex but is worth it, it seems. For example, D apparently makes introverts deceptively look like they have an extravert's energy. But their temperament is still their base Ip or Ij temperament, along with Ip's keeping their base Irrationality, even if harder to notice behind the D energy, and despite being quite energetic, they are still coming from inside themselves to interact with the environment. I do look deceptively extraverted too to some people, apparently. With D having Se emphasized too, and for some reason (due it being in ego, I guess) that's what's noticed first, not that Te-Fe energy axis. I'm like half D half C almost really, lol. Except C has Ne too, no Ne for me.
    Last edited by Myst; Yesterday at 02:31 AM.

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    Ooh. Lemme butt in! 'cuse me coming through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    And you see yourself as LSE after this post that's Ti overload......
    See, for as much as I am so not invested in the overall discussion here, this particular issue is one that I have been pondering lately and as I stumbled on it here I decided I MUST respond to it.

    Sol's take on Jung and Socionics is, in my view, a strongly pragmatic one - in the purest sense of the word as well as in the Socionics sense. There is the originator of a concept, and there are the offshoot theories of this concept. If these offshoot theories directly contradict the origin, then they are wrong and are to be corrected or discarded. If not, then you'll end up with a gazillion "versions" of the same theory that become more and more disconnected from reality, reducing the level of practical application of these models. One-fit-for-all is one strong pragmatic thought, a Te one.

    The view that these theories are each valid within their own theoretical internal structure, separate from one another in its validity - yet with obvious links to each other that ought to not be taken into account when discussing each operational segment - is that of Ti. It separates theory from reality, as any introverted attitude will do, allowing the theory to develop and live on its own, mutating into a different form depending on its 'author' (the Ti type thinking of it). Consequently this becomes yet another separate child of the mother of theories, but one that can't be reconciled with the origin because too many fundamentals have been altered. Abstract theory that lives its own life. As a result, you can be a Fe type based on Jung's, and a Ne type based on a disconnected-from-reality Ti child. This is the opposite from a pragmatic outlook, making this line of thinking not Te.

    Thank you for your attention and have a wonderful day.

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    Does anyone knows if there are DCNH descriptions specific for Delta types?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    My perception of DCNH subs
    D organizes
    N maintains

    C creates
    H synthesizes


    In your perception of DCNH I am H then. Synthesis combines the different elements into the whole. I have aspects of each and would be able to take elements from all known descriptions of IEI and make my own description to explain why I feel I am whole. This is the only socionics type I would be able to do that with using all the known descriptions to create my own subtype.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temper, irritate him."


    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    Does anyone knows if there are DCNH descriptions specific for Delta types?
    Are there links to valid descriptions of DCNH subtypes for any type in general? I feel like ken of these subtypes is screwing with my typing of myself on some level.

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    yeah gulenko did DCNH profiles for beta quadra here (scroll down for link midway)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post


    In your perception of DCNH I am H then. Synthesis combines the different elements into the whole. I have aspects of each and would be able to take elements from all known descriptions of IEI and make my own description to explain why I feel I am whole. This is the only socionics type I would be able to do that with using all the known descriptions to create my own subtype.
    I think synthesis usually reconciles lots of differences that creative tries to put out there.

    There is a ring where: D->C->N->H->D. H gives a push toward dominant people (H prevails D). Sometimes D will correct H (subtype supervision) maybe being too "vague". I think that H adopts D (or any subtype towards prevailing subtype) characteristics as he/she gets older.


    But you could also be EIE-H in POV. Not sure.
    extrospection > introspection

    Head type as in being truly head type and probably 7>5. Too divergent, scattered and expressive for typical 5 and that is the preferred way although long term focus usually helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    yeah gulenko did DCNH profiles for beta quadra here (scroll down for link midway)
    Cool thanks. Yeah I guess Delta would be on the way then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mio Q View Post
    Are there links to valid descriptions of DCNH subtypes for any type in general? I feel like ken of these subtypes is screwing with my typing of myself on some level.
    I suggest focusing on finding your own sociotype first and leave DCNH for later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    I suggest focusing on finding your own sociotype first and leave DCNH for later.
    Hmmm alright. Probably shouldn't focus on too much at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    The main problem with Gulenko is that
    he says baseless fantasies under the label "Socionics"
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    Ooh. Lemme butt in! 'cuse me coming through.


    See, for as much as I am so not invested in the overall discussion here, this particular issue is one that I have been pondering lately and as I stumbled on it here I decided I MUST respond to it.

    Sol's take on Jung and Socionics is, in my view, a strongly pragmatic one - in the purest sense of the word as well as in the Socionics sense. There is the originator of a concept, and there are the offshoot theories of this concept. If these offshoot theories directly contradict the origin, then they are wrong and are to be corrected or discarded. If not, then you'll end up with a gazillion "versions" of the same theory that become more and more disconnected from reality, reducing the level of practical application of these models. One-fit-for-all is one strong pragmatic thought, a Te one.

    The view that these theories are each valid within their own theoretical internal structure, separate from one another in its validity - yet with obvious links to each other that ought to not be taken into account when discussing each operational segment - is that of Ti. It separates theory from reality, as any introverted attitude will do, allowing the theory to develop and live on its own, mutating into a different form depending on its 'author' (the Ti type thinking of it). Consequently this becomes yet another separate child of the mother of theories, but one that can't be reconciled with the origin because too many fundamentals have been altered. Abstract theory that lives its own life. As a result, you can be a Fe type based on Jung's, and a Ne type based on a disconnected-from-reality Ti child. This is the opposite from a pragmatic outlook, making this line of thinking not Te.
    The first thing you describe is Ti. Discard irrelevant facts: Ti, one overarching system for everything: Ti, filtering everything through it: Ti.

    The second thing you describe is Irrational Ni abstractions without the strict logical consistency of Ti and in high opposition with the tangible reality of Se.


    Thank you for your attention and have a wonderful day.

    |*+- Curtains close -+*|
    Lol - nice Fe performance.

  22. #1422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    I think synthesis usually reconciles lots of differences that creative tries to put out there.

    There is a ring where: D->C->N->H->D. H gives a push toward dominant people (H prevails D). Sometimes D will correct H (subtype supervision) maybe being too "vague". I think that H adopts D (or any subtype towards prevailing subtype) characteristics as he/she gets older.

    But you could also be EIE-H in POV. Not sure.

    This would make me feel too good and full of myself so probably not me. Some core traits of EIE cognition do not fit me but I do think VS fits best with a bit of DA cog but most of that DA profile I relate to seems to be some behavior/interests, not cognition.

    My perception of true EIE are a bit idealized by me ever since Ashton explained to me why EIE was the most intuitive type even more than IEI. My ex is EIE and he has even managed to form his own little cult-like following. I only type a couple here EIE with very few doubts about it. It is weird that some people get typed EIE just because people think they are negative which could be related to so many other things going on in their life. Hopefully my sarcasm and dark humor is not what got me a couple possible EIE typings on spreadsheet.

    Anyway his points were so good I could not argue them. I know people are divided on his type but he does know a lot about Ni in particular. He typed me IEI sx/sp 4 after seeing my video and talking to me but the way he made fun of and corrected me before we talked would leave me frustrated and I guess I had almost a stereotypical reaction at first. :/ Now we are cool. One on one chats can make things a bit smoother as you get to see someone more uniquely human than a generic type description from any system. I find connecting with Ni egos rather easy. As long as we avoid points of conflict like politics or whatever. With other LIE on the forum I connect through music most often. Music is a universal language which takes things to a higher (or base) level for me.

    I really want to claim being EIE-H atm but would feel like a fraud.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temper, irritate him."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I really want to claim being EIE-H atm but would feel like a fraud.
    Haha it would be cool if you were EIE but no, pretty sure you are IEI

    Which people on here do you type EIE?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Haha it would be cool if you were EIE but no, pretty sure you are IEI

    Which people on here do you type EIE?
    I have been slowly working on my spreadsheet when the mood strikes me. I observe more than I say. I need to have it clear and as close to accurate without interference from feelings (emotions, good or bad) or shreds of doubts. I think I have an old thread where I typed some people too. Not sure if I closed it. Only a few of my typings have changed since then due to new information. I like participating in typing someone only when I can ask questions and get their feedback. Sometimes I speculate with friends which is fun. I do get instant impressions based on some vibes from videos and pics but I am more into wait and see how a personality unfolds both irl and on the forum. The issue is separating what is natural and what is coming from reading too many descriptions. People tend to want to be in a quadra with those they like and push those they don't out. I don't want to be like that.

    When I joined every petite, pretty, flowery, innocent looking girl was being typed IEI by the active members then. Many of them had red hair too. haha Trends change though and some of those girls were troll accounts, not all. All that is fluff to me. I will share when I am ready to present it with clarity.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temper, irritate him."


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  25. #1425

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I have been slowly working on my spreadsheet when the mood strikes me. I observe more than I say. I need to have it clear and as close to accurate without interference from feelings (emotions, good or bad) or shreds of doubts. I think I have an old thread where I typed some people too. Not sure if I closed it. Only a few of my typings have changed since then due to new information. I like participating in typing someone only when I can ask questions and get their feedback. Sometimes I speculate with friends which is fun. I do get instant impressions based on some vibes from videos and pics but I am more into wait and see how a personality unfolds both irl and on the forum. The issue is separating what is natural and what is coming from reading too many descriptions. People tend to want to be in a quadra with those they like and push those they don't out. I don't want to be like that.

    When I joined every petite, pretty, flowery, innocent looking girl was being typed IEI by the active members then. Many of them had red hair too. haha Trends change though and some of those girls were troll accounts, not all. All that is fluff to me. I will share when I am ready to present it with clarity.
    Okay

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    Heaven and Hell Samson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    The first thing you describe is Ti. Discard irrelevant facts: Ti, one overarching system for everything: Ti, filtering everything through it: Ti.

    The second thing you describe is Irrational Ni abstractions without the strict logical consistency of Ti and in high opposition with the tangible reality of Se.
    The Second 'thing' is a form of Thinking: it is a Rational form of thought. It requires judgment of the material in order to prioritize and separate information based on its internal structure. This hasn't much to do with Intuition.. and it is odd to me that you consider it so. Ni does not concern itself with theories or structures in the slightest.

    As for the First, discarding irrelevant facts is Te when the focus is exactly on organizing these facts according to their value.

    Lol - nice Fe performance.
    Pff, you ain't seen nothin yet!
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    the idea that "if we allow new theories or modifications to promulgate, things will get worse not better", thus it needs to be resisted/suppressed, is a combination of -Te -Ni +Ti +Se. traits both LSE and LSI share. LSI is more aggressive. Sol is LSE for sure, since he doesn't go around hurting people directly, he collects youtubes to make his point. because of their similarity in situations such as these people accuse him of being LSI a lot, but if he was he'd be more beta valuing, which is precisely why quadral values are a thing and observable across a certain strata

    tTnFb_W-2paIMZkAn7SIdPZAVvd0HzTirimdFQdsKE4.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    The Second 'thing' is a form of Thinking: it is a Rational form of thought. It requires judgment of the material in order to prioritize and separate information based on its internal structure. This hasn't much to do with Intuition.. and it is odd to me that you consider it so. Ni does not concern itself with theories or structures in the slightest.
    For sure we use very different definitions and systems here.

    IEIs do tell me they perceive abstract structures. What you described is Irrational and opposing Se also because "As a result, you can be a Fe type based on Jung's, and a Ne type based on a disconnected-from-reality Ti child."

    Irrational Ni doesn't really worry about observing all the logical consistency that Ti does care about. In this example, the Fe vs Ne typings are not logically consistent. Disconnect from tangible Se reality is again most heavily true of Ni, Ti isn't actually in opposition with Se, only Ni is.


    As for the First, discarding irrelevant facts is Te when the focus is exactly on organizing these facts according to their value.
    That's Ti with assigning subjective (=introverted) values in a logical fashion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    the idea that "if we allow new theories or modifications to promulgate, things will get worse not better", thus it needs to be resisted/suppressed, is a combination of -Te -Ni +Ti +Se. traits both LSE and LSI share. LSI is more aggressive. Sol is LSE for sure, since he doesn't go around hurting people directly, he collects youtubes to make his point. because of their similarity in situations such as these people accuse him of being LSI a lot, but if he was he'd be more beta valuing, which is precisely why quadral values are a thing and observable across a certain strata
    LSI doesn't go around hurting people directly either. You have weird notions of the type... If we really have to get into it, the aggression is subordinated to Ti rules keeping in mind a very collectivist, society oriented mindset so nah it's not gonna be about throwing random aggressive attacks just to hurt people. Really anyway this isn't type related whether someone wants to hurt others.

    Also, actually, some people think @Sol is pretty pushy lol, I personally don't worry about that. Maybe you also don't because you are Se ego too. Idk.
    Last edited by Myst; Today at 12:44 AM.

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    did I say it was random? the fact its in the service of some Ti ideology makes it worse anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    did I say it was random? the fact its in the service of some Ti ideology makes it worse anyway
    Alright goto anarchy then. Enjoy.

  32. #1432
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    Did I say its never useful, and is any criticism a wholesale embrace of anarchy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    Did I say its never useful, and is any criticism a wholesale embrace of anarchy?
    I just find your stereotyping real weird.

  34. #1434
    Heaven and Hell Samson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    For sure we use very different definitions and systems here.

    IEIs do tell me they perceive abstract structures. What you described is Irrational and opposing Se also because "As a result, you can be a Fe type based on Jung's, and a Ne type based on a disconnected-from-reality Ti child."

    Irrational Ni doesn't really worry about observing all the logical consistency that Ti does care about. In this example, the Fe vs Ne typings are not logically consistent. Disconnect from tangible Se reality is again most heavily true of Ni, Ti isn't actually in opposition with Se, only Ni is.

    That's Ti with assigning subjective (=introverted) values in a logical fashion...
    Of course IEI's can see and use abstract structures => that was never my objection. I say that Ni doesn't care about theories and the organization of internal structures.

    Because of this, Ni will not concern itself with differentiating theory, because it is not interested in theory. "Fe type" and "Ne type" are empty constructs from the position of Ni. These are terms that are given value using a Rational approach only. The splitting of theories from application and then evaluating them using its own inner logic (circular logic) is exactly what Ti is prone to doing, as it tends to ignore Te.

    Again, Ni does not concern itself with theory.

    The disconnect is (also) from Se indeed, which is why Socionics and other such constructs are LII heavy. Ti Base with Se Vulnerable, the theorist is very happy to develop its own theory and to not regard other 'versions' as true or valid or even taking them into account at all. They stand alone, disconnected from both source and reality.


    Organizing facts is Thinking, it is something that both Te and Ti engage in. It requires data and a rule of measurement. When the data and the rule of measurement is extraverted, it is Te. When the data and the rule of measurement is introverted, it is Ti. In this instance I am talking about organizing sources (external data) according to their applicability (external rule of measurement). Does source A align with source B? Does the application of the theory work or falter? The role of Ti has been fulfilled already, as the theories aren't seen in need of much inner adjustment, outside of accounting for its inherent bias re:application. Te.
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  35. #1435
    Metaphysicist thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    It's interesting you don't find it a meaningful dichotomy, while I experience it as a significant factor in practice too... the difference between Rationals and Irrationals. Pretty fundamental.
    I should point out that what I'm saying isn't new, Dmitri Lytov identified it many years ago, but for the most part Russian socionists seem not to have heeded his criticism.

    What is your problem with Jung btw, I'm curious, what do you see that's so much better in Socionics?
    I've read Jung. Some of it was interesting, and I commented on it on my blog. But mostly it was elaborate descriptions that have very little to do with reality, and definitely have only a tenuous connection with their corresponding socionics definitions. He seems to inject his own personality (Ni) into how he describes people's motivations.

    Plus all of the aforementioned stuff like intertype and interelement relations. You said that Jung talked about this, and I'd be interested in seeing where he mentions it, but his theory of interactions is far, far less well developed than socionics'.

    Augusta herself said that Jung's theory "changed beyond all recognition" in the process of developing it. Going back to Jung would be a step backwards for the most part. I don't see how someone can claim that Augusta both improved Jung and somehow also "lost" much of what made his theory good in the process (thus requiring repeated references back to Jung himself and not socionics writers). This would only make sense if you view socionics as being more akin to the nonsense that most philosophers engage in, where there is no standard of proof, rather than as science where you make a model and continually refine it based on observation.

    I was referring to this sort of thing:

    Ni as creative function of EIE (ENFj; Hamlet) and LIE (ENTj; Jack London) - like to find internally contradictory people, "dig" in them and create in them internal harmony and mood. They make for great artists, because they know how to and love to "become" one with an image of a man and play a role from his worldview. They are able to understand the essence of complex internal situations and make for potentially good analysts. Often it is difficult to find employment for them, as their "product" is the internal conflicts of man and essence, and to penetrate so far, into "the soul" of man, you just need to have permission. Often become unstable, vulnerable, fragile, just so that they can harmonize themselves, and sometimes can start to torment and tear into themselves and dig into their own issues. They have a difficulty finding adequate application to their creative function in the world, since it is not in high demand - not everyone wants someone else to dig into their internal states. Their product - bold ideas, principles, systems of belief and knowledge that they bring into the world and promote. But they do this beautifully, creatively, elegantly, not forcibly imposing them but promoting them in interesting ways. Search for internally contradictory situations, like to grasp their essence. Often realize themselves in art and writing, as this is also a good way to use the function. They are able to enter into various internal psychological states. A good speaker, as he is able to influence positively on the internal state of others. Their product is the "wholeness" of the internal state, and therefore they can find success in field of psychology, because it means that they are the healers of souls. In life they loved to dramatize everything. Everyone around becomes informed about the slightest change in their mood or internal state. Usually they are very fond of "making mountains out of molehills", for them this is a way to find work for their second function. The more they become exposed - the greater the realization of their personality in the world.

    (see the bolded parts especially)
    This is a decent description of an EIE or IEI, as an LIE description it's just bizarre. LIEs are "fragile healers of souls"??? Love to dramatize everything? They are clearly mixing up Fe and Ni here, or someone mislabeled the description...
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