Descriptions of ITRs vs Reality

[Tigerfadder]

Iv notice that not all relationships follow the path of what is described in the ITR. There seem to be a higher law that govern relations. But.

What ITR do you think play out like described and which ones not?

I start:
extinguishment goes as described.
Super-ego.
Activation.

Which not:
Some relations just dont. It could be that rare case of conflictor that turns out be a nice guy or the dual which is a bitch. Duals is actually one that seem to be very hard and rare to achieve sometimes its just close to conflictor tbh.

[Sol]

Iv notice that not all relationships follow the path of what is described in the ITR.

1) non-types factors
2) mistyping

> What ITR do you think play out like described and which ones not?

all work as should based on the theory in the case of intensive informal communication or where you need to intensively to cooperate

> Duals is actually one that seem to be very hard and rare to achieve sometimes its just close to conflictor tbh.

it's not. I had a communication with both

[Tigerfadder]

> Duals is actually one that seem to be very hard and rare to achieve sometimes its just close to conflictor tbh.

it's not. I had a communication with both

Its a bit glorified I guess.

[Sol]

Its a bit glorified I guess.

Duals are best what you may get for friendship or romance. This is what my communication experience shows, though by indirect ways - surface relations with duals and closer with types having partial supplement. I have an experience of other IR too for the comparision.
The sympathy between duals is mutual - you are same for them. You may need to adopt, as they have the opposite club. Nothing more. In case of issues, you'll have more than other IR to achieve the agreement between you. Talk and act in the borders of your values - and you'll get it.
Non-types factors may do significant obstacles with concrete individs. It's not IR issues, it's peoples and enviromental complexities.

[Tigerfadder]

Duals are best what you may get for friendship or romance. This is what my communication experience shows, though by indirect ways - surface relations with duals and closer with types having partial supplement. I have an experience of other IR too for the comparision.
The sympathy between duals is mutual - you are same for them. You may need to adopt, as they have the opposite club. Nothing more. In case of issues, you'll have more than other IR to achieve the agreement between you. Talk and act in the borders of your values - and you'll get it.
Non-types factors may do significant obstacles with concrete individs. It's not IR issues, it's peoples and enviromental complexities.

I think Duals, and type for that matter, is superior in some areas. In information exchange it develops you like nothing else. But in reality relations rely on much more than this aspect..

So some ITR will not workout like described for reasons.

[Sol]

In information exchange it develops you like nothing else.

It may to help you, to support you, to inspire to live, to be pleasant "like nothing else". And to develop weak functions too.
Duals are best for close friendship and general support in the life. It's what the classical theory says and fits to my experience.
The possible reasons of other were mentioned above.

[Muddy]

The effects of intertype relations come second towards how universally likable or unlikable a type tends be imo. For example SLEs may be prone to garner hate from a much wider range of people then just their socionicially unfavorable types, while an SEI in contrast will probably be able to have a far further of range of positive interactions with other types.

Taking into account a type/person's universal likability (aka using common sense) together with ITR is the best way to go imo, rather then just going purely off ITR to determine the quality and dynamics of type relationships.

[Pallas]

ITR always works. Socіonics is always true. It's your own eyes that must be doubted.

[Sol]

ITR always works.

When the conditions are correct. Non-types factors work too.

> It's your own eyes that must be doubted.

The correct usage of the theory must be doubted. Until you'll get the _objective_ proof the _core_ theory is wrong.
The theory which works at some people, like me. So if it does not work at you - mb something wrong is how you used it. Start with the correct typing, as when average typing match is <20% you have good chance to mistake in the types.

[Sol]

The ITR are based on cognitive functions and most descriptions make an assumption that people are acting rational

You are wrong, as descriptions of types and IR take into account weak/unconscious functions too.

> every personality type is mature/well-developed

personality type is a disorder. the lesser it is - the better. and such the lesser IR would affect you

> For instance, I've had a lot of interesting experiences with Quasi-Identical.

That could be due to mistyping. I had communication with quasi-identity - always surface or bad, nothing interesting - similar club + opposite values.

[Sol]

I don't mean weak/unconscious functions.

you said:
"most descriptions make an assumption that people are acting rational"

They are not, as unconscious (with weak functions) can't be related to rational. It's what I was about. In how IR work is strong irrational component. And those component is more important - as we do not understand good by objective reasons why some people initially or even then were liked more by us, while others did not . We mostly find rationalizations for that or secondary factors. IR start to work since nonverbal - we see someone and get irrational sympathy or antipathy, part of what is due to IR which points to which ones we can to trust more.

> For instance an immature Fe user will be a narcissistic vampire, feeding off the praise of other people and manipulative, using Fe to get what they want.

This can be related on non-types factor of egocentrism. While base Fe makes this trait more noticable.
There are no mature Jung's types, as they are pathology. The mature/developed/healthy psyche is with reduced/compensated type.

[Rebelondeck]

There are some typical ITR interactions that can be discerned when managing large numbers of people but these sync difficulties are generally not the show-stoppers. Personal biases, lacks of understanding and intransigent thinking are the biggest causes of relationship failures, so much so that they usually obscure any information processing affects. I've witnessed all sorts of successful type-combinations when baggage and libido aren't in the equation. Any polling on ITR predictability can only be anecdotal because most people are not very objective when it comes to their partners - especially estranged partners.......

a.k.a. I/O

[Sol]

There are some typical ITR interactions that can be discerned when managing large numbers of people but these sync difficulties are generally not the show-stoppers.

Where friendship is important - IR are very important. In marriages, in friendship, among close relatives, etc. It's according to the theory and there is good hope it will be experimentally proved.

> Personal biases, lacks of understanding and intransigent thinking

have strong link to IR

> I've witnessed all sorts of successful type-combinations

I saw bad marriages with bad IR, good with good, mediocre with mediocre ones. Seems such was always or alike.
Try to find happy and long opposite quadras marriage. Then talk and watch those people - do they have close good friendship, look at their emotional state. Also re-check are you sure in their types.

> Any polling on ITR predictability can only be anecdotal because most people are not very objective

Not only, as it's possibly to use objective traits too, as the number of marriages with concrete IR, number of divorces and average lenght of relations.
Also it's possibly to measure substances which are the markers of bad mood (distress, depression, anxiety) or good one - as not absolute, but mb statistically useful data.

[Bertrand]

what is the nature of a good relationship with a bad ITR

[powerrainbowcrystal]

This has been said before, but you realize the conflictor is actually nice or trying to be nice. I had a LSE boss and I grew to respect her- but we were very different. I was like Phoebe from Charmed and she was like Elise lolol. Confliction really isn't 'I want to boss fight you now and punch you in the face' it's more like you realize that the more you try to be faggy and heartfelt (remember the heart is subjective ofc) with the person the more it will be awkward and lead to misunderstandings. So you gotta keep things really impersonal and professional to get along. (which contrary to popular belief even an IEI can do =p) She did try to relate with me, and me too but it just always fell flat because we were conflictors.

Human hatred and wanting to battle somebody and watch them burn is not really type related. But if I had to guess, I think maybe your super-ego/mirror or other Identicals could bring this out in you lol.

And with Duality yeah, often an IEI will shake their head in disappointment at an SLE the same way an EII would. It takes special magic to make duality work like in the books.

Betas and Deltas get along in society with each other all the time. Same as Alphas/Gammas. But I still feel so close to some SLEs romantically even if they are douchebags. And other SLEs will definitely repulse me and make people think I'm EII not IEI. Cuz quite simply there's more to life than socionics.

Instead of 'lel socionics is ghey and dumb' and 'omg its so interesting and always true' I'm trying to take a happy middle ground between socionical factors and a bunch of others. Life has many complicated variables.

[Bertrand]

i was going to say its maintenance of proper psychological distance via awareness of possibility of miscommunication arising primarily out of basic differences in preference giving rise to illusions of evil and occasioning actual conflict out a felt need to resist or overcome said evil

in other words, every ITR has a properly calibrated distance where both parties can achieve a degree of mutual comfort and satisfaction with the other without it degenerating into hurt feelings or open conflict. the favoribility of ITRs is primarily a measure of how close you can get and still be happy, with the "most favorable" relations being those where you can be maximally close and be comfortable, a kind of fitting two puzzle pieces perfectly together

Constantin_Brancusi,_1907-08,_The_Kiss,_Exhibited_at_the_Armory_Show_and_published_in_the_Chicag.jpg

[Raver]

Non-Socionics factors play a large role with our interactions with others, Socionics is just one piece of the puzzle of relationships. Enneatype, instinctual stackings and tri-type fill some of these holes, but not all of them. If anything, non-typology psychological factors play the largest role when it comes to our relationships.

However, duality and other quadra relations work wonderfully as long as everything else is in sync. Trying to chase after your dual, while ignoring other psychological factors is naive because of this and it will only lead to disappointment. Keep an open and critical mind with Socionics simultaneously in order to stay sane IMO.

[domr]

what is the nature of a good relationship with a bad ITR

Mutual respect but physiological distance, infrequent communication.

[powerrainbowcrystal]

I like and respect @Raver even though logically he's delta and I'm beta. I don't even agree that two betas are more likely to fight like it's been said on here.

also its like.. .quadra conflicts exist on a grand scale much more than a minor one. What I mean by that is personally I can really love a delta, but if im like in a delta community or an atmosphere that's heavy Delta, 'reeks of delta' as it were- I hate it and will start making fun of ppl for my own sanity. Cuz they all talk too much like a psychology today magazine with no spice whatsoever.

[Bertrand]

Mutual respect but physiological distance, infrequent communication.

yeah totes, but it was directed at Sol

[Raver]

I like and respect @Raver even though logically he's delta and I'm beta. I don't even agree that two betas are more likely to fight like it's been said on here.

also its like.. .quadra conflicts exist on a grand scale much more than a minor one. What I mean by that is personally I can really love a delta, but if im like in a delta community or an atmosphere that's heavy Delta, 'reeks of delta' as it were- I hate it and will start making fun of ppl for my own sanity. Cuz they all talk too much like a psychology today magazine with no spice whatsoever.

Likewise. Yeah, what I have found from personal experience is that I can get along with Betas individually like IEIs, EIEs, SLEs, even a few LSIs are actually fine. However, if I am in a Beta environment, I get really uneasy and uncomfortable. I find it too boisterous and loud and if there's gossip then it really starts to bother me and I don't want to be a part of it or even near there.

[Tigerfadder]

We have to understand that ITR of socionics is based on information, and that is limited since we are not robots but humans.

[domr]

I like and respect @Raver even though logically he's delta and I'm beta. I don't even agree that two betas are more likely to fight like it's been said on here.

also its like.. .quadra conflicts exist on a grand scale much more than a minor one. What I mean by that is personally I can really love a delta, but if im like in a delta community or an atmosphere that's heavy Delta, 'reeks of delta' as it were- I hate it and will start making fun of ppl for my own sanity. Cuz they all talk too much like a psychology today magazine with no spice whatsoever.

Beta environments confuse me. Your work hard, play hard attitude makes no sense to me. One second you want a super serious, sterile work environment; next second you want to bust each other's balls by saying the most mean things. Then when I want a nice comfy environment where people are free to express themselves, you tell me, "too much information" and "I am embarrassing myself." Fuck you guys

With that said, once I show my aristocratic nature and Fi/Te brutality, I put all you Betas in your place. Your Fe is mainstream weakness.

[Pallas]

Your Fe is mainstream weakness.

Yes, but our Se is mainstream strength. Strength and weakness is really romantic. Neither strength nor weakness is just bleh. Bleh is the worst thing you could be.

[Pallas]

I like and respect @Raver even though logically he's delta and I'm beta. I don't even disagree that two betas are more likely to fight like it's been said on here.

also its like.. .quadra conflicts exist on a grand scale much more than a minor one. What I mean by that is personally I can really love a delta, but if im like in a delta community or an atmosphere that's heavy Delta, 'reeks of delta' as it were- I hate it and will start making fun of ppl for my own sanity. Cuz they all talk too much like a psychology today magazine with no spice whatsoever.

Yeah, and also, individual people in the same quadra can really tick each other off. You don't need to retype everyone you don't get along with. In fact, doing that'll probably just throw off your ability to effectively use sоciоnics.

[Pallas]

I don't find Se to be strength. Se just allows a person to understand what is in their environment. It's the judgement functions that give people conviction. Beta strength is Ti.

Conviction is all fine and dandy but when push comes to shove everything is Will to Power. I guess LSEs are generally pretty good at pushing and shoving though, but in Beta everyone's good at pushing and shoving, except maybe IEIs, who often need help from their dual to push and shove, but at least can make a good effort.

[Bertrand]

pushing and shoving is like a substitute for strength from my point of view, its what people resort to when they don't have any other leg to stand on or because they find it expedient. there is truth in force, but it is often illusory, because it substitutes expediency in time and preference for control over immediate space for long term outcomes that may be more favorable to both oneself and others. in that sense it is strictly speaking inferior even by one's own standards, but they simply lack awareness. so its awareness that confers a benefit across one level but sacrifices another. which is more important is a decision they are deprived of making for themselves and inasmuch as that is the case its a product of ignorance and its hard to square that with absolute strength. in other words, big muscle small brain is at best an offset

[Pallas]

Se tends to push and shove because they lack the Ni vision to understand nuance and subtext. It's not that Se is power but rather that Se doesn't see any other way besides what is directly in front of them. Do you really think Donald Trump is a good representation of power? I would say he is the exact opposite and is unable to influence any business professional to like or respect him.

Donald Trump is President, so yes. Does power mean being lіked? I thought it was better to be feared than loved and all that.

[Bertrand]

not only that, I feel like the right got him in there (by hook or by crook), but long term he will do more damage to their cause than benefit, which is like case in point

[Exodus]

The effects of intertype relations come second towards how universally likable or unlikable a type tends be imo. For example SLEs may be prone to garner hate from a much wider range of people then just their socionicially unfavorable types, while an SEI in contrast will probably be able to have a far further of range of positive interactions with other types.

Taking into account a type/person's universal likability (aka using common sense) together with ITR is the best way to go imo, rather then just going purely off ITR to determine the quality and dynamics of type relationships.

This is 100% true and it's probably the #1 reason why actual relationships don't go according to the theory (though it's not the only one). Socionics is far more predictive when it comes to particular interactions (/conflicts).