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Thread: Are IEIs/INFps manipulative?

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    A thread about IEI manipulation and Zero anecdotes thus far? Shame on you thread.

    So I was playing Poker at Ds house. We had a big group that night. M, K, P, and me all showed up. We were the usual. B, B2, U and J played too. This was rare for any of them. And lastly S was there with his girlfriend A and her friend C. A & C were super fine and that's all that's really relevant to this story.

    So we got like 12 people inside this little ass side room sitting around a poker table. I realize everyone still has on their sweaters, but it's viscerally uncomfortable enough in the room no one is noticing or comfortable enough to take off their sweater. It's also getting hot from so much body heat.

    So. I have an idea. I take off my sweatshirt and my top shirt. A couple minutes go by and I say, you guys are crazy. How does everyone one of you still have your layers on, aren't you hot? And that's that.
    A and C seem to ring it over in their head until it occurs to them that they're sweating bullets. They take off their sweaters and cleavage galore. Boobies all popping out. Everybody is super close because of the room.

    Half the room looks at me like I'm the Messiah. I leaned over and said that's how you win a battle.

    The game presses on. The girls can feel the stares and they're getting thrown off, the guys are starting and getting thrown off, and everyone is playing terribly until it's just me and S left. I say split the pot? We agree and I whisper, that's how you win the war. S is IEI too, he knew what was going on.

    And that's how we both came up a hundred bucks.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    I have an example of how I am manipulative. I'm very good at predicting where a conversation is going and subtly manipulating the flow to avoid embarrassing or personal topics I don't want to talk about.

    I'm a very honest person, and if anyone asks me a direct question, I feel like I have to answer it, unless I had some ethical reason why I couldn't, like if it related to a friend's secret told to me in confidence. In that case, I try to not answer any leading questions about my friends, because if you answer "Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, I can't tell you" it is obvious that the last is really a "no". You can't give away a baseline.

    A lot of people tell me secrets, I guess because I am an easy person to trust. My primary tactic of keeping those secrets is to never even hint at what I might know, because that gives a target that someone use to pressure me. I kind of hope that if anyone tells me something in confidence, they feel like they are the first person to do so.

    But since I rely on secrecy to be an honest person that can not be taken advantage of, I would be alarmed if it was obvious what I was doing all the time. Maybe the IEIs that come off as manipulative are more expressive and not as careful as I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor View Post
    Yeah and even if you could build Se experience from scratch as an adult, which you can't because your mind is much more malleable as a child, you would still be behind your Se ego peers. Let's say Se develops at the rate of X per year, and lets say you were able to develop it as fast as a child can which you can't, even if you could, you would still be behind. After 5 years of practice you are at 5X, but your SLE friend will be at 25X + 5X, because as you develop it, so does he. This is why it's so important to help children learn to trust in their own ability to do things, because if you fuck up in childhood you will never ever catch up. If you have no friends in kindergarten you will be an outcast for life


    I get your point but that last one is probably not true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sindri View Post
    I have an example of how I am manipulative. I'm very good at predicting where a conversation is going and subtly manipulating the flow to avoid embarrassing or personal topics I don't want to talk about.

    I'm a very honest person, and if anyone asks me a direct question, I feel like I have to answer it, unless I had some ethical reason why I couldn't, like if it related to a friend's secret told to me in confidence. In that case, I try to not answer any leading questions about my friends, because if you answer "Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, I can't tell you" it is obvious that the last is really a "no". You can't give away a baseline.

    A lot of people tell me secrets, I guess because I am an easy person to trust. My primary tactic of keeping those secrets is to never even hint at what I might know, because that gives a target that someone use to pressure me. I kind of hope that if anyone tells me something in confidence, they feel like they are the first person to do so.

    But since I rely on secrecy to be an honest person that can not be taken advantage of, I would be alarmed if it was obvious what I was doing all the time. Maybe the IEIs that come off as manipulative are more expressive and not as careful as I am.
    That's a really solid way to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    A thread about IEI manipulation and Zero anecdotes thus far? Shame on you thread.

    So I was playing Poker at Ds house. We had a big group that night. M, K, P, and me all showed up. We were the usual. B, B2, U and J played too. This was rare for any of them. And lastly S was there with his girlfriend A and her friend C. A & C were super fine and that's all that's really relevant to this story.

    So we got like 12 people inside this little ass side room sitting around a poker table. I realize everyone still has on their sweaters, but it's viscerally uncomfortable enough in the room no one is noticing or comfortable enough to take off their sweater. It's also getting hot from so much body heat.

    So. I have an idea. I take off my sweatshirt and my top shirt. A couple minutes go by and I say, you guys are crazy. How does everyone one of you still have your layers on, aren't you hot? And that's that.
    A and C seem to ring it over in their head until it occurs to them that they're sweating bullets. They take off their sweaters and cleavage galore. Boobies all popping out. Everybody is super close because of the room.

    Half the room looks at me like I'm the Messiah. I leaned over and said that's how you win a battle.

    The game presses on. The girls can feel the stares and they're getting thrown off, the guys are starting and getting thrown off, and everyone is playing terribly until it's just me and S left. I say split the pot? We agree and I whisper, that's how you win the war. S is IEI too, he knew what was going on.

    And that's how we both came up a hundred bucks.
    Haha this is too funny!!! Great story, but I see this much more as IEI cheekiness and playfulness not as serious manipulation. If I were duped by an IEI like this I’d just laugh it off.
    SLE-Ti

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor View Post
    I'm sorry, did you not have any friends in kinderkarten? How are you doing socially atm?
    I had lots of friends in those days, very popular. These days I'm fairly reclusive for innumerable reasons all understood by me. Doing socially sounds foreign to my ears, as its not a concern for me as it might be for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    For life as a whole. They are not all equal in each pocket and niche.
    Yep, I was about whole life.
    Anyway, people live not in pockets. There is always context of "whole life" while we dig in different pockets.

    Also to dig in pockets it's possibly by different ways, including with more use of your strong functions.
    The example of LSE - we are bad at intuitively feeling time, but can make good plans and reach the goals by our base T - by the common reason and knowledge. In relations we are bad too, but can use Socionics to choose with whome to deal with.
    I saw how F types emotionally manipulated to get better place in life - they were not better, but were more pleasant for those who makes decisions and such got it. N types are worse at fighting, but can feel bad matches of "time and place" and people to do not mess with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sindri View Post
    I have an example of how I am manipulative.
    After my experiences talking to you I do too.

    I kind of hope that if anyone tells me something in confidence, they feel like they are the first person to do so.
    Why do you want this? See, this is creepy and for self-serving purposes. You want each person who talks to you to feel special, loved and listened to and then you try to base connections on people having this false belief. Creating such false beliefs and baseless feelings in others is dishonest, selfish and manipulative. It exactly illustrates what some of the posters in this thread have gotten at, at the worst and most insidious level: that of close relationships rather than a level of dicking around for fun. Nothing is sacred to some IEIs, and they never even consider properly how low quality their own morals and behaviour could be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor View Post
    Then why all the cry emotes?
    Because your idea is sad and sounds like an impossible train you could never get off from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by sindri View Post
    I kind of hope that if anyone tells me something in confidence, they feel like they are the first person to do so.

    Why do you want this? See, this is creepy and for self-serving purposes. You want each person who talks to you to feel special, loved and listened to and then you try to base connections on people having this false belief. Creating such false beliefs and baseless feelings in others is dishonest, selfish and manipulative. It exactly illustrates what some of the posters in this thread have gotten at, at the worst and most insidious level: that of close relationships rather than a level of dicking around for fun. Nothing is sacred to some IEIs, and they never even consider properly how low quality their own morals and behaviour could be.
    Hey you are back

    Also, nooo?? In the past, I've mentioned things people told me that I thought was public knowledge, but they actually wanted to be secret. I can't always tell the difference, so I now try to assume most things people tell me are private. Its difficult, because sometimes the things you're thinking about just come out in conversation. If people are not aware of the things I'm trying not to say, even inadvertently, that means I'm a good closed book and that's proof I can be trusted. It has nothing to do with making a person feel special I could care less.

    Its like if a person is telling you a lot of gossip, that's the person who is going to be gossiping about you. If someone is cheating to be with you, even if they end their relationship to start one with you, you can bet they will cheat on you with someone else. If someone makes an "special exception" to tell you someone else's secret, you're not special, and you can count on that person giving your secret to someone else. People don't change, what they do with one person they are likely to do with everyone.

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    ... See the saving grace of dealing with the shittier IEIs is that even though they're shady mofos, they are also dense and easy to see through (kind of a paradox) if you have a critical mind.

    @sindri All that you said didn't even address what I highlighted from you. You didn't explain why needing the other person to feel that certain way was relevant to that stuff. It remains to be accounted for. You went and diverted focus to a different part of the issue rather than doing that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    ... See the saving grace of dealing with the shittier IEIs is that even though they're shady mofos, they are also dense and easy to see through (kind of a paradox) if you have a critical mind.

    @sindri All that you said didn't even address what I highlighted from you. You didn't explain why needing the other person to feel that certain way was relevant to that stuff. It remains to be accounted for. You went and diverted focus to a different part of the issue rather than doing that.
    The "feeling" was just an expression, since most people are not very abstract about their evaluations of people. The point is, I hope people can't think of a time I told them someone else's secret, because if someone tells me other people's secrets, I don't trust them. No need to throw shade man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sindri View Post
    The "feeling" was just an expression, since most people are not very abstract about their evaluations of people. The point is, I hope people can't think of a time I told them someone else's secret, because if someone tells me other people's secrets, I don't trust them. No need to throw shade man.
    I don't buy it. And I'll throw all the shade that I want, and remember this is based on my past experience with you too. You rely too much on how people will react towards you to inform your behaviours and how you treat them rather than from some kind of internal moral fibre about treating those you care about well. Moreover what person who is genuinely honest to the core needs to make a post explaining how in a thread like this, as if they have a need to prove it to themselves too maybe. You have exceptionally low integrity and an inability to handle direct cofrontation even for an IEI I feel.

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    I think it's important to point out that I am a great person and I need all of you to recognize that.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    This one is one potential IEI. Criminal womanizer Ruben Oskar Auervaara.
    He pretty much took rich women's money by sweet talking to them.

    One story about him. He met rich woman and talked her to marry him. Then he ''bought" the rings. It turned out that her ring was too small and he needed money to make it bigger. He made her to write a confirmation letter in which she gave him the money without words about the ring.


    He hung himself and spent 20 years of his life in prison.
    Great romantic. His letters were full of that imaginary. IEI, confirmed.
    He grew up in poor family surrounded by rich people. Then he started to cheat people out of their money.

    Apparently died as a virgin. He was possibly an asexual.
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    I see nothing wrong in making other people open jars of pickles for you throughout life. If you smile and shower them with sweet talk, then they're getting something in return as well, aren't they?
    But I don't think manipulation in and out of itself is strictly type related. Yes, IEIs COULD perhaps be considered the mastermind when it comes to handling others like puppets on a string, but If I were to really believe in the fact that manipulation is type related, I'd say EIEs handle it way better. But I don't.
    This reminds me of that Stratievskaya article about an IEI who was a total player and kept bouncing between his wife and his mistress. I felt disgusted by that practice at first, to be honest.

    SLEs can manipulate you through force, EIIs can manipulate you via guilt tripping and so on.


    Does my opinion matter, since you asked IEIs for experience? No idea. But since half the forum types me IEI/Beta NF (despite me being skeptical about it) I guess they paved the way into this thread for me. I'm a honorary IEI.

    Goodnight, sweet Prince (Andrei).
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    I find ethical types often practice persuasion, which can be ill-intended or well-intended.

    Usually it's well intended with the purpose of drawing friends and family to start new endeavors, make the right choices, etc.

    This is kinda odd to me as a form of argumentation, ethical types want to to convince, I want to discover objective truth, facts, etc. The latter seems true of logical types generally.

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    Oh shut up, the both of you. Inbox was invented for a reason.

    Anywaay, I do think IEIs are manipulative but it's more in an obvious manner, for example exaggerating how good one's dressing looks in order for them to be liked, or trying to talk dirty about someone else so that the person they like doesn't become friends with them. I personally find it quite obvious and really don't like it when the IEIs I know get gossipy and talk shit about people they don't like to make other people not like them. Personal experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny Dreadful View Post
    I see nothing wrong in making other people open jars of pickles for you throughout life. If you smile and shower them with sweet talk, then they're getting something in return as well, aren't they?
    But I don't think manipulation in and out of itself is strictly type related. Yes, IEIs COULD perhaps be considered the mastermind when it comes to handling others like puppets on a string, but If I were to really believe in the fact that manipulation is type related, I'd say EIEs handle it way better. But I don't.
    This reminds me of that Stratievskaya article about an IEI who was a total player and kept bouncing between his wife and his mistress. I felt disgusted by that practice at first, to be honest.

    SLEs can manipulate you through force, EIIs can manipulate you via guilt tripping and so on.


    Does my opinion matter, since you asked IEIs for experience? No idea. But since half the forum types me IEI/Beta NF (despite me being skeptical about it) I guess they paved the way into this thread for me. I'm a honorary IEI.

    Goodnight, sweet Prince (Andrei).
    IEIs instinctively know of the Benjamin Franklin effect. More on that is here if you're not familiar with it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect

    In short, it's an observable psychological phenomenon whereby having done a favour for someone once you're more inclined to do another favour for them where ostensibly you would think it would mean the reverse in that the other person is more likely to do you a favour for having done them one. The explanation for this behaviour is cognitive dissonance. People reason that they help others because they like them, even if they do not, because their minds struggle to maintain logical consistency between their actions and perceptions.

    But you can see why the IEI is matched with SLE. An SLE sees his environment as littered with objects with those objects orbiting him in concentric circles with those objects closer to him easier to control and those further away resisting his influence and direction. The IEI willingly moves himself into those inner circles with the SLE welcoming this and considering it his duty to protect him in turn for his patronage. But the IEI by moving closer actually controls the SLE through the 'soft' power of emotional influence.

    How's that for a penny for my thoughts? A nickel for a kiss? A dime if you tell me that you love me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Andrei View Post
    How's that for a penny for my thoughts? A nickel for a kiss? A dime if you tell me that you love me.
    I'm Dreadfully sorry to disappoint you, but the most i can offer you for a Penny is a story:


    But I guess it's still better than what you've got so far on this thread. Let this be a learning experience for you: Ask a question on t16types.com and you'll only get more questions in return.
    People attacking others and defending themselves, this place is the most Beta site i've ever been on. Make yourself comfortable.
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    Manipulative behavior is not type related since NTs, STs and SFs do it as well. What most people are talking about is emotional influence here which is not done with intention to harm. I used to call it all "manipulation" too when referring to behavior of different NFs before I realized manipulation is usually seen as being unscrupulous.

    9 Signs You’re Dealing With an Emotional Manipulator

    We all know what it feels like to be emotionally manipulated. It can be extremely effective, which is why some unscrupulous individuals do it so much.

    A few years ago, Facebook, in conjunction with researchers from Cornell and the University of California, conducted an experiment in which they intentionally played with the emotions of 689,000 users by manipulating their feeds so that some users only saw negative stories while others only saw positive stories. Sure enough, when these people posted their own updates, they were greatly influenced by the mood of the posts they’d been shown.

    Facebook caught a lot of flak over the experiment, primarily because none of the “participants” gave their consent to join the study. Perhaps more frightening than Facebook’s faux pas was just how easily people’s emotions were manipulated. After all, if Facebook can manipulate your emotions just by tweaking your newsfeed, imagine how much easier this is for a real, live person who knows your weaknesses and triggers. A skilled emotional manipulator can destroy your self-esteem and even make you question your sanity.

    It’s precisely because emotional manipulation can be so destructive that it’s important for you to recognize it in your own life. It’s not as easy as you might think, because emotional manipulators are typically very skillful. They start out with subtle manipulation and raise the stakes over time, so slowly that you don’t even realize it’s happening. Fortunately, emotional manipulators are easy enough to spot if you know what to look for.

    1. They undermine your faith in your grasp of reality. Emotional manipulators are incredibly skilled liars. They insist an incident didn’t happen when it did, and they insist they did or said something when they didn’t. The trouble is they’re so good at it that you end up questioning your own sanity. To insist that whatever caused the problem is a figment of your imagination is an extremely powerful way of getting out of trouble.

    2. Their actions don’t match their words. Emotional manipulators will tell you what you want to hear, but their actions are another story. They pledge their support, but, when it comes time to follow through, they act as though your requests are entirely unreasonable. They tell you how lucky they are to know you, and then act as though you’re a burden. This is just another way of undermining your belief in your own sanity. They make you question reality as you see it and mold your perception according to what is convenient to them.

    3. They are experts at doling out guilt. Emotional manipulators are masters at leveraging your guilt to their advantage. If you bring up something that’s bothering you, they make you feel guilty for mentioning it. If you don’t, they make you feel guilty for keeping it to yourself and stewing on it. When you’re dealing with emotional manipulators, whatever you do is wrong, and, no matter what problems the two of you are having, they’re your fault.

    4. They claim the role of the victim. When it comes to emotional manipulators, nothing is ever their fault. No matter what they do—or fail to do —it’s someone else’s fault. Someone else made them do it—and, usually, it’s you. If you get mad or upset, it’s your fault for having unreasonable expectations; if they get mad, it’s your fault for upsetting them. Emotional manipulators don’t take accountability for anything.

    5. They are too much, too soon. Whether it’s a personal relationship or a business relationship, emotional manipulators always seem to skip a few steps. They share too much too soon—and expect the same from you. They portray vulnerability and sensitivity, but it’s a ruse. The charade is intended to make you feel “special” for being let into their inner circle, but it’s also intended to make you feel not just sorry for them but also responsible for their feelings.

    6. They are an emotional black hole. Whatever emotional manipulators are feeling, they’re geniuses at sucking everyone around them into those emotions. If they’re in a bad mood, everyone around them knows it. But that’s not the worst part: they’re so skillful that, not only is everyone aware of their mood, they feel it too. This creates a tendency for people to feel responsible for the manipulator’s moods and obliged to fix them.

    7. They eagerly agree to help—and maybe even volunteer—then act like a martyr. An initial eagerness to help swiftly morphs into sighs, groans, and suggestions that whatever they agreed to do is a huge burden. And, if you shine a spotlight on that reluctance, they’ll turn it around on you, assuring you that, of course, they want to help and that you’re just being paranoid. The goal? To make you feel guilty, indebted, and maybe even crazy.

    8. They always one-up you. No matter what problems you may have, emotional manipulators have it worse. They undermine the legitimacy of your complaints by reminding you that their problems are more serious. The message? You have no reason to complain, so shut the heck up.

    9. They know all your buttons and don’t hesitate to push them. Emotional manipulators know your weak spots, and they’re quick to use that knowledge against you. If you’re insecure about your weight, they comment on what you eat or the way your clothes fit; if you’re worried about an upcoming presentation, they point out how intimidating and judgmental the attendees are. Their awareness of your emotions is off the charts, but they use it to manipulate you, not to make you feel better.
    http://www.talentsmart.com/articles/...46691-p-1.html

    Edit: Not saying IEI can't be manipulative in unscrupulous ways. I have been and when I was I knew why I was doing it. It is not common for me to act unscrupulous though and not common for other IEIs, I know, who aren't psychologically unhealthy. I was not at my best during the time I was.
    Last edited by Aylen; 03-21-2018 at 03:30 PM.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

  22. #62
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaebette View Post
    Oh shut up, the both of you. Inbox was invented for a reason.

    Anywaay, I do think IEIs are manipulative but it's more in an obvious manner, for example exaggerating how good one's dressing looks in order for them to be liked, or trying to talk dirty about someone else so that the person they like doesn't become friends with them. I personally find it quite obvious and really don't like it when the IEIs I know get gossipy and talk shit about people they don't like to make other people not like them. Personal experience.
    I have seen this as well but not just with IEI. I can tell when someone is doing it to me since it is kind of obvious they are doing it to make me not like the other person. I have probably done it but can't think of an example. With the ExI, I know, it is a bit different. They would actually tell me the bad things about the other person and ask me to stop talking to someone they didn't like outright. When I didn't they would start acting passive aggressive toward me for not breaking the other connection. My own sister did that to me. I have never told her to stop talking to someone she liked because I didn't like them. I hardly spent time with her friends anyway. They thought I was too weird for their mad tea parties.

    I think Fi holds grudges longer than I do so even if I am mad at someone in the moment and vent I might be over it way before my sister gets over it if I tell her about it. For that reason I learned not to vent to her about my bf or they would pay the price long term for my moment of venting.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

  23. #63
    Bertrand's Avatar
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    I would say humanitarians are subject to a lot of nasty projections because their behavior may be construed from the lens of social behavior, but also that it cuts both ways with socials being looked at negatively through a humanitarian lens, so the important thing is to realize that people are generally trying to be good, its just they're aiming at slightly different things, but that doesn't make people enemies necessarily or bad people. the question itself presumes a quantum of evil I think is mostly illusory so I'd like to deflect onto that

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    Using IEI manipulation to get the job done:

    I got a lot of praise from an EIE boss of mine because I could soothe irate customers without having to call him in. Due to the place being very understaffed and all of the existing employees being busy or out of the office most of the time, I invented a lot of tricks and routines to keep our low-star business humming.

    For example, I justified the (initially) completely unorganized records office to customers who needed copies by telling them that we were "reworking the organizational system". Since we were reworking the organizational system, I explained, it was somewhat time consuming to find stuff. I was not a liar; this was very technically true. Very technically, moving folders out of random hidden piles and into actual alphabetized cabinets is, technically, an organizational redo.

    Taking a class on consumer psychology right now and I am recognizing a lot of the instinctual maneuvers I did at that job in my textbook.
    Phobic So/Sp 6w7 3w2 9w1
    Bit of a comic books nerd, bit of a fashion nerd, a lot of a generalized nerd

  25. #65
    back for the time being Chae's Avatar
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    Phew. Hold on. Wait a minute. Total inception. I sense conspiracy. Me, desperately trying to find out how and whether IEIs are actually manipulative now

    In a thread populated with IEI posters???
    And even more chaos which is manipulative in and of itself
    further obscuring the topic
    while my own reaction to this also manipulates my thoughts because that's how my delusional brain works:



    Please does someone have all the answers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I have seen this as well but not just with IEI. I can tell when someone is doing it to me since it is kind of obvious they are doing it to make me not like the other person. I have probably done it but can't think of an example. With the ExI, I know, it is a bit different. They would actually tell me the bad things about the other person and ask me to stop talking to someone they didn't like outright. When I didn't they would start acting passive aggressive toward me for not breaking the other connection. My own sister did that to me. I have never told her to stop talking to someone she liked because I didn't like them. I hardly spent time with her friends anyway. They thought I was too weird for their mad tea parties.

    I think Fi holds grudges longer than I do so even if I am mad at someone in the moment and vent I might be over it way before my sister gets over it if I tell her about it. For that reason I learned not to vent to her about my bf or they would pay the price long term for my moment of venting.
    The last part is so true, and has happened to me with nearly all my friends and family who complain about their boyfriends then get back together with them. I'm always remembering more than them, like "don't you remember when he was flirting with your best friend and this and that?". It's not really about holding grudges but more about keeping in mind what someone did to you in order to govern your feelings or actions towards them. Till now I remember the littlest things that my boyfriend did to hurt me even before we started dating (and that's over 3 years ago) and randomly lash out to him about them when I'm drunk or really mad, and he's shocked I even remember. Fi is a curse man.

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaebette View Post
    The last part is so true, and has happened to me with nearly all my friends and family who complain about their boyfriends then get back together with them. I'm always remembering more than them, like "don't you remember when he was flirting with your best friend and this and that?". It's not really about holding grudges but more about keeping in mind what someone did to you in order to govern your feelings or actions towards them. Till now I remember the littlest things that my boyfriend did to hurt me even before we started dating (and that's over 3 years ago) and randomly lash out to him about them when I'm drunk or really mad, and he's shocked I even remember. Fi is a curse man.
    If Fi is a curse, what's the cure?

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    Spiritual Advisor Hope's Avatar
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    Fi would use more likely manipulation, while Fe extortion and threats ime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    If Fi is a curse, what's the cure?
    If I knew, I'd have used it

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Phew. Hold on. Wait a minute. Total inception. I sense conspiracy. Me, desperately trying to find out how and whether IEIs are actually manipulative now

    In a thread populated with IEI posters???
    And even more chaos which is manipulative in and of itself
    further obscuring the topic
    while my own reaction to this also manipulates my thoughts because that's how my delusional brain works:
    I'm glade you got the joke Sometime my humor is too meta.
    /
    On a serious note though, I've noticed especially EIEs, but sometime IEIs, like to embody what they see is wrong, because they identify with the people around them, and don't mind being the fall guy for the broader problem, especially if it brings it light and helps resolve it. I think Faust and The Picture of Dorian Grey are both examples of this trait.
    Here is a comic my EIE friend made a few years ago that illustrates what I'm talking about better than I can: http://philiptrauma.tumblr.com/post/94229720268#notes

    edit: also, I wouldn't be surprised if lots of Beta humanitarian movie actors take lots roles as villains for this same reason, Like American History X.

  31. #71

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    I personally find it quite obvious and really don't like it when the IEIs I know get gossipy and talk shit about people they don't like to make other people not like them.
    well you got the first part right- I do get gossipy and talk shit about people I don't like; but I don't really care if other people agree or not. =p

  32. #72
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    I think that those who really think that a type, a huge number of people, is manipulative is really lost in the woods. A few IEI probably are and we can discuss how they do it. But those who reduce a type like that is not good enough to be listen to.

  33. #73
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    I would say what appears manipulative is subjective and based on the other using information one considers off-limits to meet their goals. so like if Fi is zone of fears Fi creative could seem manipulative (because they're used to seeing it only as a byproduct of functions they're more comfortable with), same with Ni etc. to a lesser extent ignoring tries to control use of that function (mainly by limiting it) and so might consider free use of it to be manipulative, etc. in other words, like Tigerfadder says its very much a matter of perspective

  34. #74
    Haikus niffer's Avatar
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    It's said in socionics that IEIs have the most malleable minds. If somebody knows people and knows the psyche and can be flexible and adaptable on the spot, well...

    There's capability and then there's intent. I'm sure if you had such a useful tool under your belt like this, you wouldn't let it go to waste. You'd use it for little white lies, avoiding getting in trouble, things like that at the very least. Obviously not 100% of one type is 100% anything, that should be a given already. But there ceases to be any observations deemed worthwhile to discuss if we just downplay the significance of trends or state obvious things like bringing up subjectivity and values being involved. I guess those things need to be brought up once in a while as a reminder though.

  35. #75
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    Its funny how bertrand just automatically assumes my Fi thread was about some shadow vision of Fi. Its also funny how out of touch he is with the manipulative versions of it seeing how he frequently played manipulation games last year in full view although it went over most heads, which is what Fi manipulation does. He also wrongly seems to assume I took manipulative to mean the negative connotations.

    ”What who? Little ol me?” *blink blink* “I never did such a thing”—- impression of bertrand.

    Classic IEE especially when they are in the wrong and trying to dodge out of it.

  36. #76
    Bertrand's Avatar
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    finally some IEE validation around here

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    Lol : p

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