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Thread: Socionically unfavourable relationships

  1. #81
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    There are healthy and unhealthy versions of every sociotype out there, I thought that was common knowledge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    There are healthy and unhealthy versions of every sociotype out there, I thought that was common knowledge?
    It is, but I think people can take the 'he said something about an SLI so he must be talking about me personally' - approach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    This description is more applicable to an LSE than SLI. LSEs can be heartless because of 1D Fi. When SLIs try to be heartless, they'll eventually have remorse because of that 2D Fi. PoLR Fe is basically being ignorant of how you are affecting other people and how to influence other people. As a result SLIs tend to try and stay low profile. They don't go around doing heartless things and being hurtful, LSEs unfortunately often do.
    It's something that can affect logicals in general, but being ignorant of how you affect others can result in some pretty horrific behavior don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    You can describe ISTp with one word - stingy, mean and miserable or you can do it with many - lazy. There are basically two generic variations of ISTp - happily greedy and unhappily greedy. The "happy" ISTp has slightly better developed social skills than the "unhappy" version.
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    ISTps can often hurt the ones they love. Why would you want to do this? The one way to understand your feelings towards the loved ones is by hurting them and watching them suffer, only then you can be sure of how much you love them.
    They are not even any good around loved ones.

    You need to spend a lot more time around the types to get a better knowledge. Like you said, you've only known one SLI through high school, who told you it's pointless being friends with you, because you turn everything into an argument.

    Edit: I still see you as EIE, or a non Ne rational. Your statements are categorical judgements (J type) and you only look at one track events (Ni over Ne). Unless you give up the charade of speaking to me like you know things, and speaking down to me, i'm going to stop responding to you. If you can't i'd prefer it if you don't quote me anymore - maybe this option is the best, not quoting me anymore. Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    This description is more applicable to an LSE than SLI. LSEs can be heartless because of 1D Fi. When SLIs try to be heartless, they'll eventually have remorse because of that 2D Fi. PoLR Fe is basically being ignorant of how you are affecting other people and how to influence other people. As a result SLIs tend to try and stay low profile. They don't go around doing heartless things and being hurtful, LSEs unfortunately often do.
    It's something that can affect logicals in general, but being ignorant of how you affect others can result in some pretty horrific behavior don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    You can describe ISTp with one word - stingy, mean and miserable or you can do it with many - lazy. There are basically two generic variations of ISTp - happily greedy and unhappily greedy. The "happy" ISTp has slightly better developed social skills than the "unhappy" version.
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    ISTps can often hurt the ones they love. Why would you want to do this? The one way to understand your feelings towards the loved ones is by hurting them and watching them suffer, only then you can be sure of how much you love them.
    They are not even any good around loved ones.

    You need to spend a lot more time around the types to get a better knowledge, like you said, you've only known one SLI through high school, who told you it's pointless being friends with you, because you turn everything into an argument.

    Edit: I still see you as EIE, or a non Ne type. Your statements are categorical judgements (J type) and you only look at one track events (Ni over Ne). Unless you give up the charade of speaking to me like you know things, and speaking down to me, i'm going to stop responding to you. If you can't i'd prefer it if you don't quote me anymore - maybe this option is the best, not quoting me anymore. Thanks.

    Yeah this is for the best, leave me alone and don't quote me anymore.
    Last edited by at sirac son of sirac; 03-12-2018 at 10:11 AM.

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    I don't know if this forum is just exclusively meeting "unhealthy" SLIs
    @at sirac son of sirac is right about everything he's saying! Both LSE and SLI can be insensitive, cruel, harsh. They don't understand themselves or their feelings and you can even say that they don't know how to love so they need an understanding partner. They also don't know how their actions are affecting others so you need to explain it to them in a way that is not implying that they're bad in any way.

    It's true, SLI's can often think of themselves as the good guys when objectively, their actions say something different.
    I have been preaching to an SLI about this just few days ago. I have no idea how he felt after it (it was online) but I thought it's better to talk about it than let him stay oblivious. The SLI i knew was most of the time sad/angry, once he was in a very shitty mood (more than other times), then he out of the blue, entered into an argument with someone and made them cry by his words. After the person left, I heard him talking to someone and he was convinced that what he was doing is the right thing. Then after some minutes, he started feeling very bad about himself that I couldn't stand seeing him like that, I explained to him what happened and how that person must have felt then suggested he go and apologize to them. He agreed and is now in good terms with that person... They just need help in these aspects, otherwise they're really caring inside. The SLI I know was also generous, once a friend of mine needed money and he lent her all he had at that moment without even hesitating for a second.

    @at sirac son of sirac It's hard to talk about our faults. I find it really great that you're capable of doing so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    @at sirac son of sirac is right about everything he's saying! Both LSE and SLI can be insensitive, cruel, harsh. They don't understand themselves or their feelings and you can even say that they don't know how to love so they need an understanding partner. They also don't know how their actions are affecting others so you need to explain it to them in a way that is not implying that they're bad in any way.



    I have been preaching to an SLI about this just few days ago. I have no idea how he felt after it (it was online) but I thought it's better to talk about it than let him stay oblivious. The SLI i knew was most of the time sad/angry, once he was in a very shitty mood (more than other times), then he out of the blue, entered into an argument with someone and made them cry by his words. After the person left, I heard him talking to someone and he was convinced that what he was doing is the right thing. Then after some minutes, he started feeling very bad about himself that I couldn't stand seeing him like that, I explained to him what happened and how that person must have felt then suggested he go and apologize to them. He agreed and is now in good terms with that person... They just need help in these aspects, otherwise they're really caring inside. The SLI I know was also generous, once a friend of mine needed money and he lent her all he had at that moment without even hesitating for a second.

    @at sirac son of sirac It's hard to talk about our faults. I find it really great that you're capable of doing so.
    This is all very true. My ex would do cruel things and then feel terrible about them later, and if I pointed them out, she always had some rational-sounding but bullshit explanation for why doing what she did made sense. But I could tell that she felt so guilty that she just couldn’t admit that maybe she was the bad guy here. It’s like her mind would flash on that and would immediately close the door and deny.
    She seemed cowardly in the sense that she couldn’t admit the slightest fault. Add passive-aggression to the mix along with her refusal to discuss our relationship problems in any meaningful way and she was pretty hard to live with.
    The thing that redeemed her in my eyes was the fact that she really did care about other people and showed it through acts of service. I always knew I could count on her if I needed help. The other stuff was just an occasional pain caused by her particular character flaws, and who doesn’t have those?

    All in all, my marriage was a positive experience. Even knowing what I know now, I’d still do it all over again. She is a basically good but flawed human being, and I’m happy to have her as a friend. I’m also happy to be divorced from her, because now we both have a chance at relationships which offer more personal growth and greater happiness.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 03-12-2018 at 12:52 PM.

  6. #86
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    lol this is such a victimy circle jerk

    you can set aside socionics entirely, if someone talks about "acknowledging one's faults" solely in the context of attributing bad behavior to others and not themselves I immediately take them less seriously because its like they view the concept of duties as other people's duties toward them which is actually a right not a duty (on the basis of this contortion they can go on to "prove" anything, since it is all founded on a contradiction and moral talk has lost all meaning) [1].

    literally anyone can be cruel, that is a given, so when you break a type out to mention them specifically its singling them out in a way that draws attention to their faults specifically not the generally fallible nature of people on the whole. when the reasoning demonstrating the cruelty is asinine and the fallback is a general statement about human weakness that just seems like reaching to find fault in order to portray oneself as the victim (the universe is so harsh, that makes my specific complaints true however I choose to frame them, like someone would complain to their mother, etc). when someone engages in that it immediately casts doubt on the legitimacy of their claims because you can tell its all about them and not really the other person (egotistical at its core and yet presuming to talk about the selfishness of others). the person who is not there to defend themselves then gets the benefit of the doubt and you are most safe in assuming the speaker is probably just as much if not more at fault for whatever conflict they're presenting a biased take on, and all the talk of "bullshit but rational sounding explanation" becomes like a weird form of projection because that's precisely what they're engaging in at the moment.

    the bottom line is SLI is no more cruel than any other type and it always takes two. now I understand that it is a principle of socionics for dyads to divide labor such that logical types especially rationals tend to expect unerring performance of the other's functional area (in this case ethics), but this is something that immediately goes off the rails when expected of a non dual (feelings of betrayal are first of all rooted in expectation). so this idea that SLI has any faults at all, for this rationale, is just a case of misplaced expectations and miscommunication. in other words, SLI has faults, as does everyone, but not necessarily these faults for the reasons you say--to fall back on all people are fallible so this specific narrative must be true is just dishonest--this is actually a Fe threshold assuming the Fi content that lead to the transgression). stuff like "well I know they're a good person" is sort of gratuitous because its like 1) contravened by all the statements hitherto (what does it mean to even say this if the entire story relies on the fundamental premise "people are shit, which is why you can believe my conspiracy theory of SLIx is true") and 2) it presupposes a degree of real fault offset by other good qualities when the fault is illusory, as if you stand in a position to weigh it all, when its like you misperceived what goes onto the scales in the first place

    I think when people start to bash marriage its because they conflate the institution of marriage (the vow) with an assurance that the psychological expectations of the parties, regardless of their real type, will be fulfilled according to their subconsciously expected (demanded) yet undisclosed psychological needs and values (a form of covert contract neither side can make good on is entered into). in other words, just because you get married doesn't transform SLI into ESI. or LSI or whatever else [2]. this is why I think marriage ruins a lot of people because they choose unwisely then become cynical if it doesn't work out. to turn around and say "well, I forgive them" still fundamentally misunderstands their part in creating the mess (you are no less a disappointment, I assure you), so its a weird condescending form of pseudo benevolence that still asserts its correctness in its fundamental assumptions that there's anything to forgive, and its those assumptions where the blame was fundamentally placed--so its like you don't really forgive them and you're not really benevolent as you think, nor are you the victim of society or other people so much as of your own unexamined existence (this is the true trade off for obsession with money and what money cannot replace, only displace). the egotism and the victimy stuff is because all of this goes unexamined and people retain in their mind the unilateral right to impose these expectations on our social institutions and other individuals, as if it isn't exactly that process that creates a huge amount of strife in the world.

    you might say this is the point where gamma materialism relying on precedent beta social institutions exhausts itself. the whole thing sort of collapses under its own weight and all the attention paid to resource generation while assuming marriage is like some form of magic passed down from our ancestors ultimately allows all sorts of snakes in. I had a friend's mom told me that prior to her divorce she used to put tacks in her husbands bed. this was her admitting it. this is betrayal, but she was the one who felt betrayed. ultimately they had everything they needed materially, but they paid insufficient attention to other aspects and paid a different kind of price. the "gammaness" im attributing to our cultural epoch not adam

    [1] this is the fundamental victim move from which all victim morality proceeds

    [2] this is why true compatibility is more important than a vow. the vow doesn't transform the abilities and expectations of the parties. the best prevention of being stuck in an unhappy marriage is to know the other person as they are not for what you want them to be. the myth of marriage being sacred is something the modern world has made a mockery of, but it has proven that underlying the proxy (the institution) lies something real, which is real human relations, for which the vow and the ring and the certificate are only symbols. people have lost sight of that and substituted those institutions for the things they were supposed to represent. if the underlying substance is not in place the vow the ring and the certificate are powerless to really make it a marriage (Fi), more like a form of slavery (Ti). it is questionable whether augusta would have ever been inspired to devise socionics were it not for an unhappy marriage instigating these investigations into the nature of reality
    Last edited by Bertrand; 03-16-2018 at 03:35 AM.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    i've never known an IEE to have a sufficient understanding of damage control, instead what usually happens is that they find themselves in the midst of chaos, which is sometimes of their own creation, other times they're just drawn toward chaos because they over-estimate their own organizational abilities, but it's like redirecting a gust of wind toward a baby flame which ends up creating an inferno, while they stand back idly with a dumbfounded expression wondering what wrong. i've even caught them lighting the baby fire (inadvertently, believe it or not) after they thought they smelled smoke because two negative must make a positive, but it's funny since if you ask them for their rationale, sometimes it's even confusing enough to make sense.essentially this image right here:
    I feel bad because I end up doing this a lot, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    Also, modern Western culture idealizes the high attraction union, so it is culturally expected to date someone you are highly attracted to but who is not necessarily that compatible on an intimate and/or personality level; for marriage, many if not most Western people tend to rather focus on superficial "compatibility" markers, like status, wealth, education, and similar. This can influence who we choose as a mate, especially for marriage. In other cultures where arranged marriages or similar are more common, like in India, compatibility is more important than attraction. Though arranged marriages certainly do not guarantee same Quadra coupling by default, they also tend to mostly focus on superficial "compatibility", so that social expectation/custom can be flawed, too.
    I really liked your post, but i do want to point out that traditional arranged marriages in India are more often based primarily on societal status, one family wanting to be joined with another for political/business reasons (arranged marriages in other cultures are also often based on this), compatbility between the families, more so than the compatibility between the couple that is to get married. Once a suitable match meeting these criteria is found, there may be a secondary consideration as to the couple's "compatibility" as predicted by vedic astrology (not actual experiences). Perhaps we should be learning astrology, not socionics?
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    I hit constructive on domrs post by accident o/
    I'm only skimming all this

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I hit constructive on domrs post by accident o/
    I'm only skimming all this
    That’s funny, because when I read his post, which basically says that non-dual relationships can’t be quality relationships, I thought of your frequent criticisms of me for advocating the same idea.

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    im having flashbacks to Adam's dinner table conspiracy theorizing

    lets ask @domr, can non dual relationships be quality relationships, domr?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    lol this is such a victimy circle jerk
    Um, who are you addressing this to? I know you have beef with Adam because you don't agree with his self-typing. And i don't agree with his self-typing either. However, I think it is possible to put socionics aside and discuss another type of situation, that is , a failed marriage, where it is possible to make mountains out of the smallest things if things aren't going well. I only say this because i understand it from personal experience: that is, i've been in a similar situation. I don't support any sort of victim jerky behaviour in this thread or in general fwiw.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I don't really share this experience. Most people do in fact date or marry compatible types. And not only that, in most cases they also have DCNH compatibility (this might actually confuse the typings in this forum)

    Compatible types I consider quadra + semi-dual
    Yeah. That's very unlikely.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    Fi valuers (Esp Fi egos?) seem really almost-permanently crushed if theres even a temporary moment of conflict or some sadistic thing where you want the other person dead. I have always felt this was more a temporary state that happens in even the best of relationships... its a matter of consistency or tempo to me. Well I think anybody with 4D Fi it can feel like your world is dying but I think that's when its healthy to stop back and look at it from a different angle than your ego is normally accustomed to. Easier said than done but... And I know that sometimes you just can't make up in any way that brings a sense of serenity... and I can see it coming ahead of time when the relationship is getting sucked down the black hole.

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    All in all, my marriage was a positive experience. Even knowing what I know now, I’d still do it all over again. She is a basically good but flawed human being, and I’m happy to have her as a friend. I’m also happy to be divorced from her, because now we both have a chance at relationships which offer more personal growth and greater happiness.
    You know Adam you don't always have to end your messages by putting a pretty bow on things or giving everything a positive spin. Embrace the darkness, and you can really learn something. Your ex-wife probably hates you into the cosmos of eternity. This needs to leave a scar that turns you into a more interesting/complex person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bnd View Post


    You know Adam you don't always have to end your messages by putting a pretty bow on things or giving everything a positive spin. Embrace the darkness, and you can really learn something. Your ex-wife probably hates you into the cosmos of eternity. This needs to leave a scar that turns you into a more interesting/complex person.
    Lol. I like to report all the facts as I see them without putting too much of an emotional spin on them (when I’m feeling healthy, that is). I also like to present things so the reader is aware that there are two equally valid views here. It’s important to remember that my ex-wife wasn’t some accessory to me, but rather is the star of her own life.

    To be perfectly honest, I don’t really know how she feels about me. I’m not sure even she knows.
    Here is what I know:
    1. After our divorce, she invited me to a weekend family gathering and put us both in the same bed. On the last night, she made some advances and I said No.
    2. She has called me to help her when her car wouldn’t start, but she was mad about it.
    3. She invites me to dinner every few months, but won’t share utensils because she knows I’ve been sleeping with other women and she thinks I’m an idiot.

    From her behavior, I infer that she likes me and is lonely, but realizes that I’m emotionally gone, and our remaining ties are through our son.

    Of course, I could be totally wrong about that. It could be that her feelings are complex and aren’t fully known even to her. Or she might know perfectly well how she feels. I have no idea and I’m no longer that curious about it.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 03-25-2018 at 02:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This is is exactly true.

    One of the ways I early tested Socionics to see how well it predicted interpersonal relationships was to ask my SLI Supervisor son what he thought of me.
    He was about twelve and we were going somewhere in an S-class Mercedes and I asked him, “John, do you think I’m a screw-up?”
    He got really uncomfortable and didn’t answer. I tried again.
    ”Do you think I make bad decisions?”
    This one he could answer.
    “Dad, almost all your decisions are bad.”
    I thought, Ah Ha.
    ”I can understand how you would feel that way, but think about this. Your mother and I have been in a successful relationship for many years, I’ve run a successful business for many years, the family went from debt to a high net worth and high income in that time, and most people like me. How is that screwing up?”
    He didn’t have an answer, but he still was convinced I was a screw-up.

    At that moment, I knew Socionics was true.

    Objective reality goes out the window in ITR’s.

    Incidentally, both my father and my now ex-wife are also my Supervisors, and they both think I’m a screw-up, too.
    I've said similar in other threads that supervision was an undervaluing of the supervisee's perceptions and methods - a sort of colorblindness that the supervisor has. An SLI's measure of success seems to be the margin between how often does one win as opposed to how many have you lost. They look upon financial success as a security fortress and they'll often retreat to it but they also tend to believe that one does not win much by means of a fortress; the LIEs that I've met have expressed to me in one form or another that financial success was the true measure of worth so I can see the disconnect. Your SLIs may look upon your financial success as a single win......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I've said similar in other threads that supervision was an undervaluing of the supervisee's perceptions and methods - a sort of colorblindness that the supervisor has. An SLI's measure of success seems to be the margin between how often does one win as opposed to how many have you lost. They look upon financial success as a security fortress and they'll often retreat to it but they also tend to believe that one does not win much by means of a fortress; the LIEs that I've met have expressed to me in one form or another that financial success was the true measure of worth so I can see the disconnect. Your SLIs may look upon your financial success as a single win......

    a.k.a. I/O
    Undervaluing is a very good description. I’ve noticed that other LIE’s have nearly no respect for the ability of IEI’s to navigate in the world, when objective measures indicate otherwise.

    Your perception of the respective measures of success between SLI’s and LIE’s is interesting. I don’t think I measure success by the amount of money accumulated. Money is just a scorecard of the activities I do when I’m not doing something more important. Success in life is more about loving others and, occasionally, being loved.

    I will say that my SLI father views money very much like a fortress and not as oil for the machine. He stacked it up very slowly and conservatively, one brick at a time, and only once tried speculating in options, where he lost $10k on the third day. Never again. He stuck to boring but steady after that.

    The SLI’s in my life may look at my net worth as a single win, but it was anything but that. It was primarily luck, and hard work, and trying again after serious losses, repeated ad infinitum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    Good, you understand what the limitation of 1D Fe is.


    That's probably correct. She probably doesn't even know how she feels because of underdeveloped 2D Fi and I think her actions might be 1D Fe needing to experience directly a situation to gauge her reaction.

    Also good that you are not wasting your time with this BS.
    It’s not BS. She is a kind and genuinely good person who sometimes does cruel things without knowing why. Which is better than average and not too dissimilar to myself.

    Low Fi and Fe can be a bitch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Undervaluing is a very good description. I’ve noticed that other LIE’s have nearly no respect for the ability of IEI’s to navigate in the world, when objective measures indicate otherwise.

    Your perception of the respective measures of success between SLI’s and LIE’s is interesting. I don’t think I measure success by the amount of money accumulated. Money is just a scorecard of the activities I do when I’m not doing something more important. Success in life is more about loving others and, occasionally, being loved.

    I will say that my SLI father views money very much like a fortress and not as oil for the machine. He stacked it up very slowly and conservatively, one brick at a time, and only once tried speculating in options, where he lost $10k on the third day. Never again. He stuck to boring but steady after that.

    The SLI’s in my life may look at my net worth as a single win, but it was anything but that. It was primarily luck, and hard work, and trying again after serious losses, repeated ad infinitum.
    But why do you try to have approval about your decisions...good luck with that even with socionics favourable relationships...
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    By BS I meant that at the end of the day, her actions are hassle to overcome, not value add to your life. So it's wrong to get involved further with her. Best to just not waste your time and move on to better situations.
    At this point, I view her as a valuable friend who is not suitable for marriage. She still has some interesting advice every once in a while, and her Si is pretty remarkable.

    One other thing I liked about her was that I never had to walk on emotional eggshells. She and I were both pretty inert in that area. I’m not sure an ESI will be too similar in that respect, if my experience on this forum is any indicator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    At this point, I view her as a valuable friend who is not suitable for marriage. She still has some interesting advice every once in a while, and her Si is pretty remarkable.

    One other thing I liked about her was that I never had to walk on emotional eggshells. She and I were both pretty inert in that area. I’m not sure an ESI will be too similar in that respect, if my experience on this forum is any indicator.
    Some ESIs are stable but then you will have to more likely look for the Fi subtype.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    But why do you try to have approval about your decisions...good luck with that even with socionics favourable relationships...
    Well, in general, I value other people’s opinions because I can’t think of everything.

    With respect to my father’s opinions, well, who doesn’t want to gain the respect of their father? Emotionally, I mean. Logically and operationally, though, the guy is a brick.

    *EDIT* @FDG, are you saying you don’t try to gain the approval of your ESI? I mean, you should at least get them on-board. Usually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Some ESIs are stable but then you will have to more likely look for the Fi subtype.
    Bummer. I find the Se subtype lots sexier.

    But you know, I once asked an engineer in Ford Advanced Vehicles what made a car fun to drive, and he said they had studied that and concluded that the car needed to feel a bit unstable. Lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    But you know, I once asked an engineer in Ford Advanced Vehicles what made a car fun to drive, and he said they had studied that and concluded that the car needed to feel a bit unstable. Lol.
    In case of types "creative function subtype" means lesser accentuated and hence healthier psyche. Accentuated J type may look as more stable but they have more of issues from subconscious, what may lead to more strange or unpredictable behavior in random time moments. And stable harder issues too.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    my experience with SLI is like yeah you can do whatever, but then one day they're up and gone so maybe not take that as license to be insensitive

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    I guess that's supervision relationship.



    How do you define emotional eggshells? I have to be super careful around EIEs because they will criticize me to death for any perceived mistake. With that said, it's good for me to constructively criticize LSEs and SLIs mistakes because that helps them grow. With an SLI, you would haven't have trauma from being a jerk but you would also be unable to learn from mistakes and that would hurt your relationship with other people. Kayne is a good example of this, despite being married to an ESI, because Kim is a terrible person.

    “Emotional eggshells” was a terrible choice of words. I actually never felt like that. What I should have said was that my SLI ex was very emotionally stable. I never really felt like I had to edit my speech when I was around her. She just didn’t take offense easily.

    Same thing with the LSI whom I was dating. I said some pretty crazy things to her and she just laughed.

    On the other hand, many of the ESI’s on this forum have taken a dislike to me, and in most cases, I wasn’t even trying to be a jerk at the time. It makes me a bit cautious, TBH.

    Now, my IEE sister-in-law would say, “You’re having problems with lots of people? What do they all have in common?” Lol.

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    yeah when I see SLI struggling because they got married at 19 to another logical it sort of pains me

    admittedly 2d valued Fi is not worthless but they still suffer a lot socially and I can see it all unfold right in front of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    My experience with all 1D Fi users (LIE, LSE, SLE, ILE) has been that they are all socially inept, with the SLE doing the best job to get people to overlook this flaw and the ILE doing the worst job.
    1D Fi means it's impossible to model behavior and ethics and predict how people will react beforehand and instead they rely on 2D Fe to adjust to the moods of others on-the-fly.
    This is why a 4D Fi user is so valuable for these types. They can provide guidance and help the 1D Fi user stop offending people.
    That is the really insidious part of the LIE-SLI relationship, that neither type learns to communicate and work with other people better.
    I follow your reasoning about how 4D Fi users help 1D Fi users stop offending people, domr. I’ve even been tempted to say that myself about IEI’s and SLE’s. It makes a nice story. But to me, something has always felt a bit “off” with that argument. Specifically, when I was hanging with my HS ESI buddy, he never told me how to behave, nor did he really ever volunteer an opinion about someone else. The closest he came was to offer some dry humor about politics. The same behavior applies to the male ESI with whom I’ve been working for eight years. In fact, when I talk to him about people, he never states an opinion, even when directly asked.

    I’d like to think that hanging with a 4D Fi user would somehow improve my other relationships, but I just haven’t seen it work like that. Anymore than I’ve seen the ESI’s business sense noticeably improve from constant contact with me.

    If there is any benefit to this kind of match, I think it primarily lies in the personal approval that one receives from the dual which leads to sympathetic listening, along with having to discuss possible actions with a dual. Now that, I have experienced, and I like it. It can be tremendously productive, but it doesn’t change the fact that I piss people off sometimes, or that the ESI has a really hard time making long-term, productive decisions.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 03-26-2018 at 12:56 AM.

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    I think the base function precludes it from becoming an issue, whereas creative is more likely to "teach." (although learning is occurring across both channels--but the time component to base function is what "gets ahead" of issues in time) the 4d function is suggestive in that they don't need to hit on it explicitly, they just sort of exude it passively. in other words, the other learns by example not by declaration, so to speak. in picking up on the ambient high quality information in the air they act accordingly and the problems are dissolved before they can become an issue. so its not like ESI sits around lecturing LIE (although to say ESI never rants and raves is probably inaccurate as well), its more like they act in such a way that LIE is comfortably maneuvered into a situation that despite themselves they tend to act in a manner less ethically problematic. creative use of power (Se) also contributes, so really the subtlety to the process is precisely how it all works. the same process would be unsubtle and unwelcome in a different type that resented such means of shaping the situation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    yeah when I see SLI struggling because they got married at 19 to another logical it sort of pains me

    admittedly 2d valued Fi is not worthless but they still suffer a lot socially and I can see it all unfold right in front of me
    SLIs married at 19?



    Sounds out of character. How about SEI instead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    SLIs married at 19?



    Sounds out of character. How about SEI instead?
    it is out of character, and its not good. but sometimes I think local factors influence them. in a prevailing delta culture SLIs would probably never get married early, but not all are so lucky... this is precisely what pains me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ......... I don’t think I measure success by the amount of money accumulated. Money is just a scorecard of the activities I do when I’m not doing something more important. Success in life is more about loving others and, occasionally, being loved..........
    You would be unique to my experience although the way the adverb "occasionally" is used sounds very LIEish. All those that I've met had very similar attitudes; a sort of: "I don't know how the Chevy driver won; I drive a Mercedes so I deserved the prize." But, I thought that this type of elitism served many of them very well in corporate America........

    a.k.a I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    You would be unique to my experience although the way the adverb "occasionally" is used sounds very LIEish. All those that I've met had very similar attitudes; a sort of: "I don't know how the Chevy driver won; I drive a Mercedes so I deserved the prize." But, I thought that this type of elitism served many of them very well in corporate America........

    a.k.a I/O
    For an American Chevy always beats Mercedes.

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    didn't eliot rodger flip out in part because he couldn't understand how it could be that he drove a bmw and didn't have a girlfriend whereas other guys with worse (or no) cars did. to me this sounds like some variant of hyper rationality but I always attributed to a warped mobilizing, I wonder then could it have been base

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    For an American Chevy always beats Mercedes.
    I’ve owned both. They are built by different philosophies, for different purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    You would be unique to my experience although the way the adverb "occasionally" is used sounds very LIEish. All those that I've met had very similar attitudes; a sort of: "I don't know how the Chevy driver won; I drive a Mercedes so I deserved the prize." But, I thought that this type of elitism served many of them very well in corporate America........

    a.k.a I/O
    I know a lot of LIE’s IRL, and I would humbly suggest that I am the most self-aware of them. Not the most successful, but the most self-aware. At least, it seems like that to me.

    Of course, maybe they all think that.

    A lot of success is due to signaling.

    I actually used to wonder how all the idiots around me managed to succeed. I don’t wonder about that anymore. Some people reach home base because they were born on third, and some work really hard to get there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    Maybe you are Ni subtype? I know a few and the Ni subtype is much more self-reflective and aware.
    No, I’m Te-subtype all the way. I have enhanced Se for an LIE, which means reduced Ni.

    Any self-awareness that I might have is not related to type, but rather to repeated interpersonal screw-ups and the resulting search for answers.

    I’m both really smart and pretty oblivious to how I act, but when I’m faced with a problem that needs to be solved because it is interfering with my goals, I look into it until I have a satisfactory answer.

    I still have lots and lots of problems to fix. I usually find out about them after doing something stupid, so I’d say any natural talent I might have is on the level of a five-year-old. The introspection takes work.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 03-26-2018 at 10:31 PM.

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    I suppose most of my close friendships are favorable ITRs (many EIIs, my mom is SLI, a close friend is LSE), but my partner is an LII. I spent much of my dating life avoiding LIIs who admired me, but this one is perfect for me, perhaps due to his instincts and DCNH subtype (we are both so/sx; he is C and I am H).

    I've never been attracted to same quadra romantically. I liked the idea of some Delta ST's, but there wasn't the same kind of passion there as I have with my LII. My sp-last instinct gives me some distaste for Si maybe--I prefer Ni. And I like Te so Delta NF's didn't do it for me. Delta's are reliable pals I trust to the moon and back, but they just seem too familiar to be passionately attracted to them?

    I liked a few ILI's, though I've never really been as close to one as to my EII/LSE friends. I liked the idea of LIE's, though in practice I don't seem to be attracted to real ones in person.

    My LSE friend is a good person, but his Ni polr is frustrating, especially because he refuses to listen to me on Ni matters. The symbiotic relationship of duality is a neat concept, but there are many barriers to it working in reality, in either a romantic or platonic relationship.

    I really like how un-anxious my LII is, which is a good complement to my tendency toward being anxious. I think he also has 8w7 in his tritype, so he has more active masculinity/assertiveness than the LII's that liked me before (many of whom were also sp/sx, which is so aughhhh to me as an so/sx). We like playing with our Ne and Ni together, and he likes Te-fact-dumping, and most of the time he has no trouble restraining himself from the types of pointless Ti arguments I hate.

    I suspect someone is gonna try to tell me he's not really LII, but honestly, his motivation for his job is totally Ti, his Se is def polr and not suggestive, and he is def Fe suggestive.

    I know two other EII-LII couples, don't know why this is such a common pairing.

  40. #120
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    yes I think you make a good point which is that comfort in intra quadra relations isn't reducible to predictability, I find some other quadra way more predictible than fellow deltas, and its a bad thing. I don't know if that kind of predictability is a desired trait for other quadra but I find it more like people are just boring idealogues or otherwise preoccupied with things I find uninteresting, like the bitcoin example or rick and morty or whatever (all the shows in this vein have the same schtick to me which is essentially to point out how Ti is so much more rational than Fi). although of course commitment is something else

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