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Thread: Socionically unfavourable relationships

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    Because duality takes real work, it requires both people to fully synchronize so it can be easier to settle with a less compatible ITR, especially if you don't care about being truly happy or operating at 100% full power.

    My experience with ILE's have convinced me that dating them will never work long term and assuming you are EII and your partner is LII, you will have similar problems.
    * Aristocratic vs Democratic - will eventually offend the Alpha as they see the Delta as too scary.
    * Theoretical vs Pragmatic - will eventually offend the Delta when they want real world feasibility and Alpha is stuck on unrealized vision. (Bitcoin)
    * Same perception function - easy communication but ultimately shallow and unable to flush out ideas in detail. When I talk to ILEs, I will often be able to predict what they say and often agree but when I talk to LSEs, I cannot predict what they will say and am pleasantly surprised by their insights. I never have that feeling from ILEs even when I agree and understand their input.

    As soon as you want support and you want to develop and you want to grow, that is when you realize the importance of duality and to a large degree activity pair.
    1) The lookalike relation for IEE is SEE, not ILE.

    2) I am in a relationship with the love of my life, who supports, excites, and understands me in ways I never thought possible. Are you?

    3) When you have a romantic partner, you are not suddenly unable to interact with any other person. You can still have friends, including dual friends, who make you grow in ways that your partner does not. This does not mean that duals are better romantic partners. I have been extremely close to three LSEs: one romantically, one platonically, and one professionally. In the end, the problem is the same. They lack a coherent vision, but their Se enables them to push their crappy vision on me and not listen to my input. Sure, I like their Te. But I don't need to be intimately involved with them to get their Te.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    1. Same Quadra differences. Same Temperaments. Same Romance Styles. So my comp. was reasonable.
    2. No, because I can't find a good SLI. Either too immature (~21yr old) or married (~30yr old). The problem is without correct ITR (duality or maybe activity), the relationship won't be fulfilling in the long-run, once you start to realize what you are missing.
    3. ITR is macro, maturity is micro. Those are micro issues, not macro issues.

    In EII-LII, Ne will make both partners curious about Fi/Ti respectively but eventually you will realize that isn't what you are searching for. In other words, it's okay in the short-run but not the long-run.
    E.g. you will realize that certain topics are off-limits, that they upset the partner and/or they cannot provide you the information you want. Which then causes you to increase psychological distance.
    So in the long-run, without compatible ITR, the people will inevitably start drifting apart. To clarify, we are talking about trying to make a relationship work for 2yrs, 5yrs, 10yrs, 20yrs, 30yrs+ right.
    All right buddy. We'll see where each of us is in the future eh? Cheers.

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    I appear to attract SEEs. Probably because my Fi PoLR detachment is interpreted as Fe PoLR detachment.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerdle View Post
    I appear to attract SEEs. Probably because my Fi PoLR detachment is interpreted as Fe PoLR detachment.
    They might just be ESEs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    They might just be ESEs
    No, they're Se valuing alright. ESEs might be a bit forward, but these SEEs are much more so!
    7wcp6-8w7-cs3w4 sx/so/sp
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    Any posts that suggest a type that is not my current one are wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    While activator will support worse your suggestive, he's annoingly active for E types, annoingly chaotic for J type. That's why I can't say that activator is much better than semi-duality. They both are similarly compromistic compared to duality.
    Semi-dual gives the support you want the most - this makes them good friends and spouses, they strongly inspire you to live, they naturally love close to the form which you think as "true love". You'll get values opposition in 2nd functions, but it's not critical - it will annoy both close like E-P in activator for E-J type.
    I never had significant romantic interest to activator girls. I saw interesting ones, but they never touched my heart, I just noticed "good and pretty girl" and nothing more. Seems I was attracted to introverted girls only, - quiet and shy people, which are opposite to my choleric temper.

    > while in irrationals tension will ruin the relationship from the clash between wanting a romantic relationship and then getting no emotional support

    P types need lesser of emotional support, so I doubt there would be significant difference in satisfaction. But P types form lesser stable relations, so they may break them easier because of this, but not lesser satisfaction.
    I know the mistake you are making now. You are determining compatibility based on functions instead of blocks.

    Dual and Activity pair have the exact same blocks in the exact same position. So both provide you the information you are looking for. Both stimulate your super-ego and super-id blocks. This is not the case for semi-dual. In fact, the opposite blocks of your semi-dual mean that at a macro level, you have a completely different worldview. With activity, as you zoom out, you become more similar while with semi-dual, you become less similar.

    Horizontal axis is Conscious/Unconscious
    Vertical axis Introversion/Extraversion
    [Function Strength / Dimensions]

    IEE

    Code:
    [1] Ti | Se [2] (Super-Ego)
    [3] Fi | Ne [4] (Ego)
    -------|--------
    [3] Ni | Fe [4] (Id)
    [1] Si | Te [2] (Super Id)
    SLI

    Code:
    [1] Ni | Fe [2] (Super-Ego)
    [3] Si | Te [4] (Ego)
    -------|--------
    [3] Ti | Se [4] (Id)
    [1] Fi | Ne [2] (Super Id)
    LSE

    Code:
    [2] Ni | Fe [1] (Super-Ego)
    [4] Si | Te [3] (Ego)
    -------|--------
    [4] Ti | Se [3] (Id)
    [2] Fi | Ne [1] (Super Id)
    SEI

    Code:
        Introversion | Extraversion
                Ni-2 | Te-1 [Super-Ego]
    Conscious   Si-4 | Fe-3 [Ego]
    -----------------|-----------------
    Unconscious Fi-4 | Se-3 [Id]
                Ti-2 | Ne-1 [Super Id]
    So you can see quite clearly that activity pair is the closest to semi-dual. The only problem is the difference in function strength. In other words, it's the wrong balance but still the information that you fundamentally want.
    Last edited by domr; 05-14-2018 at 09:58 PM.

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    I know the mistake you are making now. You are determining compatibility based on functions instead of blocks.
    IR compatibility is based on functions complementing. If you reject this, then your mistake is to use baseless bs instead of the classical theory.
    Also dichotomies affect your compatibility and preference. Though, IR theory does not mention this directly.

    Semi-duality and activation mb close in the compatibility sense. Every with own good and bad. I know several semi-duality marriges - they all were good relations. I had significant romantic feelings to semi-duality girls 2 times and liked a lot of their emotional inlfuence on me - it's very cute people which can be excellent friends and wives for me. I just will not get N support and mb some annoyed by other S/N value, but the main I seek - is emotional support (my suggestive), inspiration by kind and compassionating woman heart.
    Your "quadra values" are the same on the half and you get the support in that half in semiduality.
    You need experience of semi-duality friendship or romance to understand how good such girls are for you. Though non-types factors may affect too, to add some complications.
    Last edited by Sol; 05-14-2018 at 05:23 PM.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerdle View Post
    I appear to attract SEEs. Probably because my Fi PoLR detachment is interpreted as Fe PoLR detachment.
    Well super-ego thing is pretty weird. It is like with SEE's we both act in very straight forward manner and collaborate quite effectively while roasting each other. It probably looks quite cold. It is quite positive experience when there exists some distance.
    extrospection > introspection

    Head type as in being truly head type and probably 7>5. Too divergent, scattered and expressive for typical 5 and that is the preferred way although long term focus usually helps.


  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by at sirac son of sirac View Post
    It's true, SLI's can often think of themselves as the good guys when objectively, their actions say something different.
    Is this why my SLI mom *never* will trade letters with me in Scrabble? Even when people are okay with trading in a game! It's very sinister.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    SLIs married at 19?



    Sounds out of character. How about SEI instead?

    My SLI mom got married at 17 because she was careless and got pregnant. She left after she'd had enough of the guy whom she should've never been with, and then married my LSE dad at 21. They have almost broken up many times but have now found some better equilibrium in their 60s.

    But to me the absolute worst relations are extinguishment. I was with a conflictor (ENTp-Ti) for a year once, and possibly mistook him for a dual. We actually got along great for a few months until he figured out he couldn't tolerate our match anymore and then he moped until he broke up with me a couple months after that in the most unceremonious and imo cruel way. But day-to-day relations with extinguishers are MUCH more uncomfortable than with conflictors, imo (and if you take away romantic attraction I guess it's magnified times 1,000). There's absolutely no understanding of where the other is coming from and extinguishment relations are completely maddening. Just ask me about my mother-in-law. :>

  11. #131
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    can you say more about the breakup and what made it cruel in your view. if not, i understand, but im curious about that issue

  12. #132
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    I am IEE and my son is SEE so my business relation. He is se subtype 7w8 sp/sx a force of nature, a real leader. I know it's partly the intensity of being his mum and having little break from each other but socionically there might be something to the fact that I find this relationship quite painful. The ep-ep thing is ok, I can see where he is coming from. But he rejects all my ne ideas when we play despite me explaining to him how I'd feel happier to play if he accepted them, and his Se is so pushy and demanding and I need to match it or hold my ground before it without freaking out. I don't know if it's because of this but not being able to escape it has made me grow a lot as a person, but maybe that comes from accepting any painful experience and is unrelated to our functions...

  13. #133
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    I've witnessed a short lived "friendship" between an ESI (m.) and a LII (f.). Both shared the same circle of acquaintances so they had no choice but to get along with one another. The ESI is mostly grumpy, cold and inaccessible which intimidates the LII. He criticizes that she is cold and never sounds sweet, playful, friendly. It would need a XEI or EXE to lighten her up but the Alpha type of humor completely contradicts Gamma humor. Everytime she is about to come out of her shell she notices the ESIs frown and becomes quiet again. He says things like "I'm not criticizing you. I'm just listing all your errors [1]" or "Somehow all your stories end on a negative note" which (as far as I can tell) makes the LII feel very inadequate. She loathes the days were she has to be in the company of the ESI.
    Otherwise the LII makes the ESI uncomfortable with the way she approaches knowledge and learning. She likes to talk about the things that interest her and tries not to judge people at first glance. She tries to give him resources (like books for ex.) in hopes of making him interested in psychological and political phenomena but he rejects them all. Firstly because they are of no use for him at the moment and secondly because talking about highly theoretical concepts at parties seems odd to him.
    What's most intriguing to me is how different the two approach the topic of fairness and good/bad. The LII tries to never be in dept of another person. When a friend pay for her she needs to return the favor ("logical relationships"[2])while the ESI sees that as kind of compulsive(?).
    Also both see each other as cold buzzkills.




    [1]
    The main "program" of ISFj (ESI, "Dreiser") is to reveal all the existing negative ethical qualities and tendencies and to fight for their removal, exclusion, and elimination, to the point of their complete eradication. In light of this, what constitutes acceptable relations for ESI are relations in which he sees the least troubles for himself, his close ones, and his community. [...] Even if this creates an impression that he places very high demands on people in his environment, the ESI is not capable of lowering them, regardless of who asks him for it.


    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...Stratiyevskaya



    [2]
    The INTj frequently attempts to equate these two concepts, abstracting away from such "ethical conditions" as having a personal right to good service, for which it is possible to expect a reciprocal service, but impossible to demand it. Raising "objective fairness" into the realm of ethical standards, the INTj gets detached from the notion of having personal ethical rights, but insists on fulfillment of ethical obligations.


    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...Stratiyevskaya

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    When it comes to friendships, people mostly focus on certain shared interests or hobbies. That can even make Conflictors become friends with each other, for they at least have the basis of complementing each other clubs-wise (NF with ST, NT with SF), which often creates interesting discussions. In my group of friends, there is an LSI guy and IEE woman who have been friends for 7 years (!) and they get along fine. But also, because they maintain a respectful distance. They agree to disagree. (It probably helps they are both 9 fix as well.) So I've found you can be friends with anyone for as long as there is a sufficient emotional distance and a laissez-faire attitude. This becomes trickier once the friendship grows closer, but even then I find that the interpersonal distance matter is much more casual in friendship than in romance and family.

    That's why I keep saying, Socionics compatibility really starts to matter in the "nuclear family" and in romance/dating, because our influence on the other person is the greatest and most intimate in those instances.

    Though as you said, you see people dating outside of their Quadra a lot more often than expected. Why?

    The simple reason is: Most people are primarily guided by their attraction to someone, and then specific values and relationship goals which can be unrelated to sociotype to some extent; values like religion, marriage, children, etc.

    Attraction is involuntary and not just reserved for people inside of your Quadra. If you've had some kind of childhood trauma or just significant discord with one of your caretakers or similar, you'll most likely be the most attracted to someone who reminds you of that person in certain ways unconsciously. And that person is often not your Dual or from your own Quadra (though there can be exceptions, depending on the kind of trauma you've experienced and/or how aware you are when it comes to who you choose as a partner; for example, someone who knows about Socionics is more likely going to pick someone who is more socionically compatible).

    Based on my observations of married couples irl and online etc., I've found that Semi-Duality, Mirage, Lookalike, Benefit, and even Supervision marriages are fairly common, and they can be surprisingly long-lasting (e.g my Lookalike parents have been married for 20+ years). All those marriages added together, it seems like they may outweigh same Quadra marriages. Same Quadra marriages are mostly comprised of Identicals, followed by some Activity couples. Mirror marriages seem reserved for Fi ego couples. I haven't known any other kind of Mirror marriage before actually, when I think about it. Duality seems about just as common as Mirror marriage.

    The ideal is that you are with someone you are highly attracted to and who is highly compatible with you. But depending on your past (trauma), life circumstances, and so on, you may not be able to find someone like that. Many if not most people opt for high attraction > high compatibility, if they have to choose one. They may say or claim otherwise, but when you look at their relationships, you'll see they are in denial. And I'm not blaming them, for pair bonding is usually quite instinctual and not rational.

    Also, modern Western culture idealizes the high attraction union, so it is culturally expected to date someone you are highly attracted to but who is not necessarily that compatible on an intimate and/or personality level; for marriage, many if not most Western people tend to rather focus on superficial "compatibility" markers, like status, wealth, education, and similar. This can influence who we choose as a mate, especially for marriage. In other cultures where arranged marriages or similar are more common, like in India, compatibility is more important than attraction. Though arranged marriages certainly do not guarantee same Quadra coupling by default, they also tend to mostly focus on superficial "compatibility", so that social expectation/custom can be flawed, too.

    When it comes to a happy and enduring relationship, I've found that if one aspect is a bit lacking, the other one has to be quite good or high. For instance, if you are with someone who is from another Quadra, at least the attraction needs to be good for it to work fairly well; the higher, the better, especially for problematic relations like Benefit and Supervision. (The exception to this principle would be opposite Quadra – I haven't known any happy and/or longterm opposite Quadra relationship/marriage before. It's a doomed enterprise, even if the attraction is high. Simply because the incompatibility is too great.)
    My mom and dad have superego relations and their DCNH are weird as SLI-C for him and IEI-N for her, they have oddly compatible life values elsewhere, in allure of personality attributes not accounted by socionics; it's crazy when people think the complexity of humanity can be restricted to 16 or even 64 labels without even growth and development - some of which can contradict socionics.

    Maintaining relationships is another separate skill people aren't taught, depending on how bright the folks involved are - it can make things good or horrible.

  15. #135
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    Someone i know just quit their job because their co-worker (the person they worked more closely with) was toxic. Basically, even though i don't know either of their types, I'm going to take a wild guess that it was a socionically unfavorable relation. Of course the person that was the reason for my acquaintance's quitting might have presented other issues as well, likely many of them, but socionics factors were my first thought when i heard about it.

    I mean there might basically be factors that make someone else's toxicity completely unbearable (like with no work-arounds at all) and i'm thinking socionics factors might be one of them.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

  16. #136
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    Duality bro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by idontgiveaf View Post
    Duality bro.
    Do you think duality is unfavourable? (always)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerdle View Post
    No, they're Se valuing alright. ESEs might be a bit forward, but these SEEs are much more so!
    ESFx Dominants are just the same, in fact, you'd mistype ESE-D as the stereotypical SEE or EIE if you aren't aware of how domineering they are. It throws the question out for the alpha stereotype, which is really quite biased.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Do you think duality is unfavourable? (always)
    Yes dude. The most people i hate are mostly consist of ILI

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by idontgiveaf View Post
    Yes dude. The most people i hate are mostly consist of ILI
    What if they are actually LII
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  21. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by idontgiveaf View Post
    Yes dude. The most people i hate are mostly consist of ILI
    If it´s mutual then it must be duality.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by idontgiveaf View Post
    Yes dude. The most people i hate are mostly consist of ILI
    Not surprised, but for what reason?

    This is what I think of SEE and ILI duality
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR8hlvLghrs

  23. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    What if they are actually LII
    They're not.

    Similarities better LII and ILI are they both look like autists.

    But LII is nicer and not that assertive.

    ILI are assertive and they just say offensive words and they literally have no idea they offended and they look like menstruating women.

    LII is more approachable and kinda shy type.

    ILI doesn't seem shy because they just do their own thing and they are really annoying for me

    ILI would hate my jokes, vice versa.

    LII would like my jokes, vice versa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    If it´s mutual then it must be duality.
    It's called opposite

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Not surprised, but for what reason?

    This is what I think of SEE and ILI duality
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR8hlvLghrs
    I'm not SEE

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    Quote Originally Posted by idontgiveaf View Post
    I'm not SEE
    You self type as SLE again or nothing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by idontgiveaf View Post
    They're not.

    Similarities better LII and ILI are they both look like autists.

    But LII is nicer and not that assertive.

    ILI are assertive and they just say offensive words and they literally have no idea they offended and they look like menstruating women.

    LII is more approachable and kinda shy type.

    ILI doesn't seem shy because they just do their own thing and they are really annoying for me

    ILI would hate my jokes, vice versa.

    LII would like my jokes, vice versa.
    Regarding the bold part, i could say the same exact thing about LSI, Except I suspect they do actually have an idea that they offended and maybe even did it on purpose. They also look like menstruating women, w/e that means
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

  28. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by idontgiveaf View Post
    They're not.

    Similarities better LII and ILI are they both look like autists.

    But LII is nicer and not that assertive.

    ILI are assertive and they just say offensive words and they literally have no idea they offended and they look like menstruating women.

    LII is more approachable and kinda shy type.

    ILI doesn't seem shy because they just do their own thing and they are really annoying for me

    ILI would hate my jokes, vice versa.

    LII would like my jokes, vice versa.
    You are looking at the dominant subtype, even the LII Dominant is difficult (subject to extra details like individual culture); Both LII and ILI normalising and harmonising are far more tame
    Last edited by Soupman; 06-08-2018 at 03:34 PM.

  29. #149
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    Yes, the thing with D's is that they do not respond very well to whimsical or irregular stuff. I have noted that goals tend to be quite opposite. "Look what I did" does not go well. Ah, no points for generating fully functioning formula that produces infinite number of right solutions to a task that only asked few specifics but because it has one spot (handwriting) that might need further explanation I got nothing.
    extrospection > introspection

    Head type as in being truly head type and probably 7>5. Too divergent, scattered and expressive for typical 5 and that is the preferred way although long term focus usually helps.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    You self type as SLE again or nothing?
    I dunno. Socionics isn't life

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Regarding the bold part, i could say the same exact thing about LSI, Except I suspect they do actually have an idea that they offended and maybe even did it on purpose. They also look like menstruating women, w/e that means
    I see. I know an LSI irl though but yes she's not that very nice with others but she's nice to me. So I don't have problems with her

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    You are looking at the dominant subtype, even the LII Dominant is difficult (subject to extra details like individual culture); Both LII and ILI normalising and harmonising are far more tame
    Well I'm basing it on experience.. Not on possibilities

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    Quote Originally Posted by idontgiveaf View Post
    Well I'm basing it on experience.. Not on possibilities
    Depending on your theory, you'll mistype some people. Reality never changes but your perspective can.

    Your description of ILI sounds like you are converting MBTI to socionics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Depending on your theory, you'll mistype some people
    *picks Soupman’s nose*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    Yes, the thing with D's is that they do not respond very well to whimsical or irregular stuff.

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    It doesn't matter how i categorize people..

    But the point is they're the same people..

    So, what's the difference between ILI socionics NI-Te between INtJ mbti??
    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Depending on your theory, you'll mistype some people. Reality never changes but your perspective can.

    Your description of ILI sounds like you are converting MBTI to socionics

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    Quote Originally Posted by idontgiveaf View Post
    It doesn't matter how i categorize people..

    But the point is they're the same people..

    So, what's the difference between ILI socionics NI-Te between INtJ mbti??
    Oh, huge difference actually, ILI is more apathetic, measured in energy (fancy way of saying low in energy), near submissive especially compared to his dual; the emotional energy is lacking along with decisive outlook - they are more observers than active participants.

    The INTJ is self-confident and self-assured, some ivory tower persona ready to control his group if feeling that the people in it aren't to his respect. The INTJs make long intricate plans internally which they'll bulldoze with their decisive logic, they are insensitive because they only think about the goal and negate focus on the feelings of others.

    ILI nominally couldn't be any more different, they are inward focused and focus on their own plans, unable to be decisive and direct others since they have 1D volitional sensing. Whilst they don't pay as much attention to other's emotions per say, they have weak ethics of emotions, so they struggle to affect the emotional realm either positively or negatively (except when it's self-sabotage when they get emotional and lose it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Oh, huge difference actually, ILI is more apathetic, measured in energy (fancy way of saying low in energy), near submissive especially compared to his dual; the emotional energy is lacking along with decisive outlook - they are more observers than active participants.

    The INTJ is self-confident and self-assured, some ivory tower persona ready to control his group if feeling that the people in it aren't to his respect. The INTJs make long intricate plans internally which they'll bulldoze with their decisive logic, they are insensitive because they only think about the goal and negate focus on the feelings of others.

    ILI nominally couldn't be any more different, they are inward focused and focus on their own plans, unable to be decisive and direct others since they have 1D volitional sensing. Whilst they don't pay as much attention to other's emotions per say, they have weak ethics of emotions, so they struggle to affect the emotional realm either positively or negatively (except when it's self-sabotage when they get emotional and lose it).
    Coming to think of it, people doesn't really act that way

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    Quote Originally Posted by idontgiveaf View Post
    Coming to think of it, people doesn't really act that way
    which way?

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