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Thread: Official Magic and Esotericism Thread

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    I like how the derailment of this thread went along, we're touching Nietzsche now and the whole idea of God, so not so bad a derail... I mean, yes, there's value in the individual, of course there is, society, collectives are just made of such many individuals, so the ideal would be that all individuals were as "sane" and bettered as possible, to achieve, collectively, something good.

    Each one has their own quirks anyway, it's nonsense to profess something that should be followed by all, especially in the dimension of a spirituality, that is really the most personal thing one could think of.

    The death of god, of a reality that transcends the ordinary sensual life in prevision of better days, after, is what made Nietzsche build the idea of the huber man, the perfected being that relies upon himself only, and on his worldly possibilities.
    There's value in this, as there's value in recognizing what limits us, in order to achieve all that we can achieve, we have to know ourselves (see socionics and the personality theories, they're a bonus if we wish to understand ourselves, instead of just putting a label on ourseleves)

    This value anyway can't limit itself to our own beings because we're part of something bigger, we're a part of this world and we have to share ourselves if we wish to achieve anything. The same huber mensch of Nietzsche caused Nietzsche to lose his mind (or he created the huber mensch becaue he already lost his mind, oh well)... the ideals of such individualism were even the ones promoted, wrongly but still, by Mr Adolf. You get where this goes?

    Sure, self betterment is great, but let's not forget we not alone *X files tune playing*

    ps, "H"uber mensch!? sorry german guys... I cant even... (I swear I even checked if it was correct so... oh my..) trololol
    Last edited by ooo; 03-10-2018 at 09:08 PM.

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    Conflagerating? Huber man? You might be better at arguing when sober... Or at least go to the bar with the other drunk/high/stoned philosophers of the world.

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    sorryyyy entelechia, I wish i had been drunk!

    well... I like your idea that would be beautiful ^^ conflagration seems good anyway, it's all a fire when spirituality is involved ^^vv??

    ENTELECHEIA***

    WTF U_U

    I think I have some dumbo transits effecting me lately... idk really
    Last edited by ooo; 03-11-2018 at 07:47 AM.

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    I'm considering using your typos for titles and stuff, so no worries.

    I think racism is seen to generally really obviously contradict individualism by most people today, even if someone might associate individualists = egotists and racists = egotists, just like I wouldn't expect anyone to start an anarchist military even if many people think both anarchists and soldiers just want an excuse to go blow things up. If you wanted to argue your racism was individualist or your proposed military does not rely on hierarchies, I'm sure you could though. I don't think Hitler was ever that individualist though, what with the whole "facism" thing. I think he took the individualism out of Nietzsche's rhetoric and just used the rest (like how he said "the supermen" instead of "the superman.") I mean if you're a propagandist you'll mine something that people kind of read but don't really read, right? He would've already known people don't really read from the whole Mein Kampf thing.

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    I acted in a One Act play once and played one of three monkeys in a cage typing on type writers and eventually got shakespeare. Ya high school drama club.

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    I always viewed worshipping Satan as a misunderstood deity of sorts that isn't 'evil' or even cruel, but instead encourages people to follow their own lusts and what excites them provided it doesn't hurt anybody else. How being independent and a strong sense of knowing what you want gets misconstrued as 'evil' in the world. And the hypocrisy and self-righteousness of "Christians" were particularly harmful in society.

    There's a good Buffy season 4 episode about the issue called 'where the wild things are' or something like that. This old house mother-type was a devout religious figure who caused teenagers fucked up harm because she basically repressed them and their natural urges. And got called out on it.

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    Then you have actual devil worshippers, who I believe call their belief system diabolatry. From what I have heard from them on occult forums they worship the devil with the intent of becoming like him. It is not clear what they mean by becoming like him, since it isn't clear how they see him. Probably as a symbol of power and individualism.
    I just want to say about this, I doubt these people could be considered Left-Hand Path as the LHP is about self-deification, and worshipping something outside yourself is widening the gap between the divine and man, not bridging it. Prayer, sacrifice, and worship I do not feel are LHP practices.

    Then again, they do this in order to become powerful themsleves, to become in a sense divine, but I think their method of doing so makes it debatable whether this is LHP.

    I admit that I don't know about this belief system to really comment more, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starrangel View Post
    I always viewed worshipping Satan as a misunderstood deity of sorts that isn't 'evil' or even cruel, but instead encourages people to follow their own lusts and what excites them provided it doesn't hurt anybody else. How being independent and a strong sense of knowing what you want gets misconstrued as 'evil' in the world. And the hypocrisy and self-righteousness of "Christians" were particularly harmful in society.

    There's a good Buffy season 4 episode about the issue called 'where the wild things are' or something like that. This old house mother-type was a devout religious figure who caused teenagers fucked up harm because she basically repressed them and their natural urges. And got called out on it.
    Yeah, I think the whole devil worship idea is silly but God can't have an enemy. In the Book of Job God is just letting Satan do stuff because it doesn't affect God. It can't affect God since God is omnipotent and all that. It's basically just a reflection on Job. So, if you think God can have an enemy, you've probably got God confused with your own projection you don't want to own and you need all the devils you can get.

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    Real people who do the 666 satan stuf, the ligit satan stuff, dont care about boundries and are usually in the dark triades.

    The devil worship is a proxy and makes them feel like they are part of some sub culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by entelecheia View Post
    Yeah, I think the whole devil worship idea is silly but God can't have an enemy. In the Book of Job God is just letting Satan do stuff because it doesn't affect God. It can't affect God since God is omnipotent and all that. It's basically just a reflection on Job. So, if you think God can have an enemy, you've probably got God confused with your own projection you don't want to own and you need all the devils you can get.
    It doesn't affect God but it can affect His creations (aka us).

    Following our desires is exactly what he wants us to do - this is how most people worship Satan without realizing it, when they just give in and don't see it as a bad thing.
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    Meister Eckhart's final teaching

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobus View Post


    Meister Eckhart's final teaching
    Now, waiting for someone to confuse this with Eckhart Tolle like they always do...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    It doesn't affect God but it can affect His creations (aka us).

    Following our desires is exactly what he wants us to do - this is how most people worship Satan without realizing it, when they just give in and don't see it as a bad thing.
    How do people follow none of their desires though? Is this Freud? If there are any desires people should follow but think they shouldn't, then, sometimes good will appear as evil. Even if your standard is entirely internally consistent, that doesn't mean it correlates to the real world correctly. An inconsistent one might correlate better with reality. I don't know how people would know what standard to follow except through themselves, even if they use an outside reference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by entelecheia View Post
    How do people follow none of their desires though? Is this Freud? If there are any desires people should follow but think they shouldn't, then, sometimes good will appear as evil. Even if your standard is entirely internally consistent, that doesn't mean it correlates to the real world correctly. An inconsistent one might correlate better with reality. I don't know how people would know what standard to follow except through themselves, even if they use an outside reference.
    I'm talking about lower lustful desires - that's not what we're here for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I'm talking about lower lustful desires - that's not what we're here for.
    Yeah but no one can аgree what's lower and what's higher or what people are here for. You always have to evaluate on a case by case basis whether you want to or not. Otherwise everyone would аgree on religion by now.
    Last edited by Pallas; 03-13-2018 at 03:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by entelecheia View Post
    Yeah but no one can agree what's lower and what's higher
    Sure they can. The same general things are sins or looked down upon in pretty much every major religion, with minor variations: pride, anger, lust, selfishness, gluttony, arrogance, etc.

    It's only Satanism and variations thereof that glorify these things which are destructive to the soul.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Sure they can. The same general things are sins or looked down upon in pretty much every major religion, with minor variations: pride, anger, lust, selfishness, gluttony, arrogance, etc.

    It's only Satanism and variations thereof that glorify these things which are destructive to the soul.
    "All real religions are the same with only minor variations" mostly seems like the work of 70s academics trying not to offend their bourgeois audience to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by entelecheia View Post
    "All real religions are the same with only minor variations" mostly seems like the work of 70s academics trying not to offend their bourgeois audience to me.
    Nothing to do with what I said, you're only hearing what you want to hear. Don't you ever contribute anything constructive? This "nobody knows anything" stuff only reflects your own ignorance and bitterness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Nothing to do with what I said, you're only hearing what you want to hear. Don't you ever contribute anything useless? This "nobody knows anything" stuff only reflects your own ignorance and bitterness.
    I don't believe nobody knows anything though. That's you just hearing what you want to hear. It's a fact that not all religions have basically the same practices.

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    Racism is individualistic at its core, which is a sick one. We have to recognize that we alone can’t function, obviously, before any further discourse can be made. But that’s not too much a developed reasoning. It’s quite the basic.

    Now the matter is, which kinds of relationships (inevitable) are the best? A racist answer would be: the ones with your own brothers and sisters, with the same language and the same culture. Basically not too different from a form of incest. If racists could, they’d reproduce with themselves, like worms do. But they can’t, nature taught us we can’t reproduce alone, we need the Other, but for a “racism” scope, this Other must be as similar as possible, because all that is different is bad.

    This reasoning is not individualistic? Ok, you can view it as “self preservation”, “care”, or “protection”, wtv you like really. Ancient Pharaos and still many coultures have the same approach, excusing such inbreeding in all sort of ways… but it’s funny because behind all the reasons there’s usually a mere economical view: you marry your sister, so we’ll keep the reign in the limits of our own power without spreading its benefits too broadly; you marry your cousin and so again your family will have more labour force to work the soil and take care of the sheeps and whatnot.

    Economy is just another way to say: value. What are your values? Preserving your self, your achievements and keeping them for yourself and your family only? Fine, but if this will orient all your contacts with people, that’s racism. Like a worm that reproduces itself alone.

    Nature (which means nurture in latin) is far more anarchic than those strict bonds assessed by the individual “values“. Anarchic as in, every single part of nature is free. Free and lustful, it can go wherever it wants, it can be and mate without bounds, without imposed values. Anarchy itself, professing the freedom of every individual, is the exact opposite of individualistic, because the individuals have to recognize to everyone the same freedom, and don’t impose themselves above anyone.

    There’s a very idealistic and utopistic setup to anarchy, that is that all the men and women recognize to each other their own freedom -not to do all they want (that’s the stupid conception of what anarchy gotta be), but the freedom to BE all they can be-. This, for and foremost, means respect, culture in its most highest form, as in knowledge, and understanding. Comprehension, as in the etymology “to take within”. As the opposite of “exclusion”, to close outside.

    It’s a difficult balance; the unknown, the different, is always scary, the Other is here to challenge us, to puts us outside of our comfort zone. Sometimes it harms us, and self protection, as a sane form of self-love and individuality, is good. But when such an orientation takes the lead, when all we do is in the scope of ourselves only, that’s the rotten part that causes harm, because to no other is granted the right to be what they are.

    if you’ve made it this far here’s a heart for you <3

    Quote Originally Posted by entelecheia View Post
    I'm considering using your typos for titles and stuff, so no worries.

    bahahah

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Sure they can. The same general things are sins or looked down upon in pretty much every major religion, with minor variations: pride, anger, lust, selfishness, gluttony, arrogance, etc.
    Every "major" religion simply appeals to the lowest common denominator in man: the need to be lead, to not think, to not queston.

    They have become watered down versions of what they were (probably) intended to be.

    It isn't because a religion is "major", that is, accepted by the masses or large groups of people, that it is somehow better. In fact it's a good sign that it is somehow worse.

    I always found odd, hypocritical and inconsistent the way the RCC accepts "ecumenism" with various "world" religions but condemns things like new age and the occult, and god forbid - the dark side of the occult. Not that I'm a fan of the New Age movement, I think they lack critical reflection and are in many ways hypocrities themselves, but the RCC insists on stigmatising certain groups that are "outside" the norms of society while promoting "ecumenism" with religions that are already accepted. In other words, NRMs are bad, conventional, accepted religions are good, which is thinking that makes no sense to me since every conventional, accepted religion began as an NRM.

    Not that I need the approval of the RCC, not in the slightest, just saying that the reason they do this is because the RCC, as well as other conventional, or "major" religions have a social purpose, they need to appeal to the lowest common denominator so as to be socially acceptable. That isn't very appealing to me, it reaks of inauthenticity.

    It's only Satanism and variations thereof that glorify these things which are destructive to the soul.
    This, taken in the context of your previous statement is an appeal to authority (logical fallacy); what you're saying is, these things are desctructive to the soul because the "major" religions say so. You offer no actual basis as to why these things are desctructive, you simply say they are such because the major world religions all agree.

    Not that I personally glorify these things such as lust myself, but I also think that conventional religions try to repress them. In the context of modern psychology, this has been proven unhealthy many times, regardless of what some monk in a white robe might say. I don't think it's healthy to repress these things, glorifiying them is ok as long as they are practiced in moderation, though I suppose the emphasis on the seven deadly sins of Christianity as a philosophy is a bit immature as it is a merely based on a reaction to Christianity.
    Last edited by Avebury; 03-13-2018 at 02:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    Racism is individualistic at its core, which is a sick one. We have to recognize that we alone can’t function, obviously, before any further discourse can be made. But that’s not too much a developed reasoning. It’s quite the basic.

    Now the matter is, which kinds of relationships (inevitable) are the best? A racist answer would be: the ones with your own brothers and sisters, with the same language and the same culture. Basically not too different from a form of incest. If racists could, they’d reproduce with themselves, like worms do. But they can’t, nature taught us we can’t reproduce alone, we need the Other, but for a “racism” scope, this Other must be as similar as possible, because all that is different is bad.

    This reasoning is not individualistic? Ok, you can view it as “self preservation”, “care”, or “protection”, wtv you like really. Ancient Pharaos and still many coultures have the same approach, excusing such inbreeding in all sort of ways… but it’s funny because behind all the reasons there’s usually a mere economical view: you marry your sister, so we’ll keep the reign in the limits of our own power without spreading its benefits too broadly; you marry your cousin and so again your family will have more labour force to work the soil and take care of the sheeps and whatnot.

    Economy is just another way to say: value. What are your values? Preserving your self, your achievements and keeping them for yourself and your family only? Fine, but if this will orient all your contacts with people, that’s racism. Like a worm that reproduces itself alone.

    Nature (which means nurture in latin) is far more anarchic than those strict bonds assessed by the individual “values“. Anarchic as in, every single part of nature is free. Free and lustful, it can go wherever it wants, it can be and mate without bounds, without imposed values. Anarchy itself, professing the freedom of every individual, is the exact opposite of individualistic, because the individuals have to recognize to everyone the same freedom, and don’t impose themselves above anyone.

    There’s a very idealistic and utopistic setup to anarchy, that is that all the men and women recognize to each other their own freedom -not to do all they want (that’s the stupid conception of what anarchy gotta be), but the freedom to BE all they can be-. This, for and foremost, means respect, culture in its most highest form, as in knowledge, and understanding. Comprehension, as in the etymology “to take within”. As the opposite of “exclusion”, to close outside.

    It’s a difficult balance; the unknown, the different, is always scary, the Other is here to challenge us, to puts us outside of our comfort zone. Sometimes it harms us, and self protection, as a sane form of self-love and individuality, is good. But when such an orientation takes the lead, when all we do is in the scope of ourselves only, that’s the rotten part that causes harm, because to no other is granted the right to be what they are.

    if you’ve made it this far here’s a heart for you <3
    Right, racism appeals to group characteristics, ie "those people are like me, therefore they are good, others who aeren't are bad". So it appeals to group qualities, which seems more collectivistic than individualistic. Sure you may argue it is selfish, since it starts from the self, but I think the word you are looking for is solipsism, not individualism. Solipsism is a more accurate term to describe basing one's worldview on one's own subjective perception than individualism.

    Of course, it all depends on how exactly you define the terms, I don't feel like discussing semantics, but I feel like you're using words like "individualism" without any real underlying meaning to them, just an appeal to emotion. That seems like the trait of pseudo-intellectual discourse, using words to appeal to emotion without any kind of underlying meaning to the words.

    I'm frankly losing my patience here, as I've explained and shown many times in previous posts individualism is not about what you write here. Why do you insist on calling individualism evil? It seems like this post is just one of these "we are the world" speeches about how we all need to love each other, except you're jamming "individualism" in there are few times to find a convenient devil.


    Btw, to clarify: when I use words like "conventional" or "accepted" to describe religions, I use those terms interchangeably, basically I am talking about what others are calling "major" religions, but I don't like the latter term because it makes it seem like a religion is superior or inferior due to the number of adherents it has.
    Last edited by Avebury; 03-13-2018 at 02:09 PM.

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    Ave, bury, morituri te salutant~

    In the first point I plainly said that we can’t function alone. Even an individualist doesn’t function alone, proof is that we call “individualist” someone who doesn’t care for other beings and often uses them for his own profit.
    Solipsism is a philosophical concept that has little to do with this, so I’d rather not use it, even because I often hear it from people who have no idea of what they’re talking about.

    As I’ve said before, there are different forms where an individual focus is not bad. The alchemical work, or anarchism, follow sane forms of individuality. On the other hand, the belief in individuality per se, like the believes that Satanism and LFP portray, are corrupted, if their only purpose is to go against christianity and preach upon idols whose merit was to be antagonists for their own advantage.
    Call Satan a hero, call him wtv you like, but realize there’s more in this world than the mere senses, and so, likely, there’s more in this world than ourselves.

    If
    socionics teaches anything is that the dual is our opposite, we contain it, but it’s the Other. So you won’t find your dual within you if all you “pray” upon is your self and your similar, for it’s outside of such limits that you’ll find what completes you…. the point is just this, how can you be completed when the individualistic assumption is “I’m already perfected”?
    Aha.

    Again, there are good forms of individuality, for hermeticism the focus is one self’s betterment, for anarchism it is the collective Good… but what’s the merit in fulfilling all of one’s desires without discrimination?

    We can put all sorts of limitations outside, we can discriminate all the people that are different and strange and have no value to our eyes (THIS IS WHY I MENTIONED RACISM, TRUMP, AND GODWHATNOT) but in a real work of betterment the limitations are imposed inside, for the criticism always begins within.


    I feel so outdated for professing things like understanding and peace in an online forum… eh


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    I just don't agree on definitions, you know?

    I'll go over what I mean.

    Even an individualist doesn’t function alone, proof is that we call “individualist” someone who doesn’t care for other beings and often uses them for his own profit.
    That's not how I use the term. That has nothing to do with philosophical individualism either, which is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about our use of the pejorative "individualist", as we use in the colloquial sense, but individualism.

    On the other hand, the belief in individuality per se, like the believes that Satanism and LFP portray, are corrupted, if their only purpose is to go against christianity and preach upon idols whose merit was to be antagonists for their own advantage.
    You should really check out the books I mention in post 33 of this thread. You'll see that the LHP does not fit into some narrow definition of "corrupt" individualism.

    As I’ve said before, there are different forms where an individual focus is not bad. The alchemical work, or anarchism, follow sane forms of individuality.
    Sane forms of individuality is what I'm talking about. Alchemy is a good example of that, and btw alchemy is not incompatible with LHP practices.

    but what’s the merit in fulfilling all of one’s desires without discrimination?
    Did I ever say that? Can you point to me who is, in fact, saying this?

    If socionics teaches anything is that the dual is our opposite, we contain it, but it’s the Other. So you won’t find your dual within you if all you “pray” upon is your self and your similar, for it’s outside of such limits that you’ll find what completes you…. the point is just this, how can you be completed when the individualistic assumption is “I’m already perfected”?
    The individualistic assumption is not "I'm already perfected". This is more an assumption you seem to have about individualism, than an assumption people on the LHP have. In the book Lords of the Left-Hand Path, Stephen Flowers explains there are two forms of LHP, which he calls immanent LHP which has a more physical and materialistic view of man and which he associates the modern day Church of Satan, and the transcedental LHP, which views man more in a spiritual manner, as something to be transformed. The latter view is the one espoused by the modern day Temple of Set and is the one I practice.

    Of course it would be stupid to say "I'm already perfected", but noone is saying that. That would be a way of discouraging growth and developing one's potential, rather than encouraging it, which is what the LHP is about.

    We can put all sorts of limitations outside, we can discriminate all the people that are different and strange and have no value to our eyes (THIS IS WHY I MENTIONED RACISM, TRUMP, AND GODWHATNOT) but in a real work of betterment the limitations are imposed inside, for the criticism always begins within.
    I completely agree.

    In the first point I plainly said that we can’t function alone. Even an individualist doesn’t function alone
    Again, I agree, but noone is saying we should function alone.

    I think you are simply reacting emotionally when you hear the term "individualism" and suppose it is about functioning alone, when it is in fact, not.

    On a side note, interesting you bring up Socionics and duality, keep in mind Socionics was developped within the confines of the Soviet Union and thus has a collectivistic bias, probably. That's not to say the theory is wrong, though. Just something to keep in mind.

    I feel so outdated for professing things like understanding and peace in an online forum… eh
    Well, my point here is that you preach understanding, but it gets frustrating as you make alot of assumptions about things you don't know. I think your intentions are good, but the conclusions you draw are too hasty, I invite you to do more research. My problem with what you are saying here is not really that you preach this stuff, I just wish you wouldn't make assumptions about my path when you clearly haven't done the research I've done on the subject. It's a bit insulting.

    Ave, bury, morituri te salutant~
    I wish I had payed more attention in my High School Latin class.
    Last edited by Avebury; 03-13-2018 at 05:21 PM.

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    If we're going to talk about Racism here, at least make it about esoteric racism



    http://www.gornahoor.net/?page_id=2729

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    Sorry Ave but I can't keep up with a surgical deconstruction of a post.

    I'm not completely ignorant of LHP and occultism, I have friends who pursue those same things. They are nice people, they've tried to involve me in their journey to magic enlightenment, but I just think it's all bs. My view is not too different from what Freud thought about magic, ie that it's a form of narcissism, aka a hypertrophy of ego, so.. individuality to the max, even if I'm not a fan of Freud.

    I'm glad if you find those teachings of some value, but I'm not surprised more and more people are interested in them in the today's world... ask yourself why, and ask yourself what values are the ones pursued today.

    I'm not picking my values in order to fulfill my egomaniac desires, which now you might deny but it's instead something common to all "magic". If not, I'm probably picking my values in order to sedate my desires... but this is about preferences I guess, and maybe socion types might have an interesting take about this inner and fundamental aspect of the being, at least that's all Jung seemed to be focused on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobus View Post
    If we're going to talk about Racism here, at least make it about esoteric racism



    http://www.gornahoor.net/?page_id=2729
    I just looked this guy up, didn't know who he was before.

    I think that a study of nazi occultism can be interesting, kinda like in The Morning of the Magicians, but I oppose partisanship of such ideas. Nazism and communism have proven themsleves very deadly ideologies.

    In any case, thanks for infleuncing me to look this up.

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