Do SEIs-ISFps struggle with introspection?

[whodat]

I know a few and lots of what they do seems self defeating and it seems as though they don't have a lot of awareness into the reasons why things are the way they are

---> see selective memory

---> playing naive

---> lack of insight

---> repeating mistakes again and again.

Thoughts?

[Exodus]

Any type with weak and low priority Ni.

[Tigerfadder]

I think it depends on the SEI. Some is just superlazy and some work hard. I met both SEI and ESI that is like what you write. But also SEI that work hard and actually aware so its one of those things when the person mature or not.

[whodat]

Any type with weak and low priority Ni.

Important distinction and its appreciated you bring it up. I was hoping to get some insights on SEI specifically. Anything you can think of?

Its odd mix in them, because on one hand you they have the ability to read others and really have insights into how people are feeling and what is motivating them moment by moment, but on the other hand they don't always turn that insight inwards, unless its following ethics and Si. For example, not recognizing hidden nerorsis from their parents manifested in themselves, or assuming their Si habits - inclinations must also be others. That sort of thing.

[whodat]

I think it depends on the SEI. Some is just superlazy and some work hard. I met both SEI and ESI that is like what you write. But also SEI that work hard and actually aware so its one of those things when the person mature or not.

True and I'm even assuming they are mature.

[lemontrees]

I misread this as struggling w/ over-introspecting, which I identify with. Lol. I am generally aware of my problems but unsure of how to move forward. For instance, I may be aware of fantasizing a lot rather than dating, but investing the energy in meeting new people feels too hard, and I think about how much of a bad fit most of those people are likely to be.

Recently I read something (posted by an Ne-base, I think) about how more than 80% of life is seeing all the other options but consciously deciding to stick with (a person, a place) b/c you've emotionally committed to it. This really, really did not resonate with me. Finding other options feels like taking an enormous leap of faith.

For example, not recognizing hidden nerorsis from their parents manifested in themselves, or assuming their Si habits - inclinations must also be others. That sort of thing.

I think too much about hidden neuroses inherited from parents, and I assume I'm different from others- even when I'm not.

[whodat]

I misread this as struggling w/ over-introspecting, which I identify with. Lol.

Cool I had wondered what was going here.

I am generally aware of my problems but unsure of how to move forward. For instance, I may be aware of fantasizing a lot rather than dating, but investing the energy in meeting new people feels too hard, and I think about how much of a bad fit most of those people are likely to be.

If it feels hard do you just not do it? Does this extend into other areas in life? I'm wondering because it sounds familiar. With dating, I know one SEI who get interested and then pulls away, with much negativity> no beard, not right, to quite, to loud, they are this that and the other thing..just high standards, and then wonder if its themselves. Then they fall into Si habit-patterns and kinda sit in those for a looong time. Then they say I can't do x,yz, because of said reason, usually some Si considerations, so they miss out on what could be fun and then wallow in micro depressions.

Recently I read something (posted by an Ne-base, I think) about how more than 80% of life is seeing all the other options but consciously deciding to stick with (a person, a place) b/c you've emotionally committed to it. This really, really did not resonate with me. What options? How do you know they would work?

This plays into what I was saying earlier here. I know one SEI who was invited across country with a semi-stranger to someplace probably fascinating and they turned it down because of some Si excuse and its very frustating to watch from the outside. Lots of hidden fears and it is a huge clash of values with me, personally.

I think too much about hidden neuroses inherited from parents, and I assume I'm different from others- even when I'm not.

Okay, it might be a particular thing with this person and not universal which was why I mentioned it and now I can see. As far as feeling different from others, that might be a part of what I am noticing- different yet inferior?

[Exodus]

Important distinction and its appreciated you bring it up. I was hoping to get some insights on SEI specifically. Anything you can think of?

Its odd mix in them, because on one hand you they have the ability to read others and really have insights into how people are feeling and what is motivating them moment by moment, but on the other hand they don't always turn that insight inwards, unless its following ethics and Si. For example, not recognizing hidden nerorsis from their parents manifested in themselves, or assuming their Si habits - inclinations must also be others. That sort of thing.

The essential motivation here seems to be avoiding mentally confronting unpleasant issues. I'm not sure what your goal is but recognize that if you do bring something up try to do so in the most diplomatic way possible, rather than putting pressure on them. Try to get them to see your side of it.

[whodat]

The essential motivation here seems to be avoiding mentally confronting unpleasant issues. I'm not sure what your goal is but recognize that if you do bring something up try to do so in the most diplomatic way possible, rather than putting pressure on them. Try to get them to see your side of it.

So much this.

I JUST went through this, this morning. I made a request and basically, as per usual, for the past 3 decades, was chastised about my "approach". Which makes me feel undermined and invalidated and its communication breakdown from the get go. Thank-you for realizing this was what I was trying to point at. It seems just my very being puts pressure on them and its frustrating to the extreme, especially since it destroys any chance of reaching any goals in a balanced and mutually satisfyiing way. I start pointing out where they are being blind and they start hyper-focusing on the approuch and tone and it destroys understanding and turns into a repeating cycle of melt downs.

Btw I was placed into foster care and government homes for delinquents as a child for this very issue, so its extremely central to my world view on this sociotype.

[The Reality Denialist]

Alpha by Reinin:

Reinin on Dumas:

Function #-4— subjective intuition (): The integrity of internal situation is the "fabric" of this function; it is the fear of searching one’s heart, digging in one’s mind. Introspection does not go well with a Dumas. Some other types eagerly engage in introspection, but neither a Dumas nor a Gaben enjoy it. If this type chooses to take a look at their psyche then things may go in three different ways: a) he scratches the surface of his inner self, but he has an impression he reached the bottom; b) he studied only ideas about oneself; c) this is not a Dumas.

Here the infallibility complex comes into action again: a Dumas escapes internal problems by ignoring them: “I am OK". This should not be confused with megalomania. Why psychological literature does not give sufficient information about this complex? Nobody seeks a therapist to get help in this area. People come for therapy if they have a problem, but in this case there is "no problem", everything is just fine. The inner world is always integral: “Do not touch there, I'm fine”. Thus a person separates oneself from most of the world, a place where he might find out that he is not OK. The “not OK” part of his [inner] world does not exist in his opinion, a Dumas stubbornly ignores it. But this can not go on forever, after a while he runs into things that are “not OK”. It is impossible to classify people into bad and good, and live with the latter, and send the former to guillotine. After a while the search for the bad people resumes. Similarly, the person’s living space is reduces and he feels lonely.

Reinin on Don:

Function #-1 – subjective intuition (): ignoring the integrity of internal situation. This is the lack of ability to plunge in thought. A Don Quixote finds it hard to plunge deep into him/herself and search the inner mechanisms of the soul. "What do you mean, 'analyze the internal situation'?" Hamlet enjoys this creative area of self, but a Don Quixote runs from it. He knows nothing about it.
This is a potential area for problems. When a Don Quixote is asked to look inside of him/herself, he is lost because he/she does not think this way. They do not understand what is required of them because their IM structure ignores this area completely. Relationships with other people come easy for them. It is easy for them to deal with other people’s problems. But their inner world is beyond their understanding.

Reinin on Hugo:

Function #-3 - subjective intuition (): changing on the inside solves problems. This is possible in a number of ways: the change of image, meditation, and alcohol. More often a Hugo chooses to escape from problems instead of solving them. They may radically change their image in an attempt to run from reality, imagining they are somebody else free from the existing problem.

Reinin on Robespierre:

Function #-2 - subjective intuition (): a Robespierre's zone of standards consists of a number of states and moods. My state is always adequate to the external world, and my inner person is standard. Why bother studying your inner self if building a world of harmony is so much more interesting and acute? A Robespierre typically chooses one of his standard states and dwells in it most of the time. This area of standards also includes ethical norms and principles, which secure the integrity of their internal world.

[Rebelondeck]

Like SLI, it's more about honing references than actual introspection; many like doing this by engaging others and hashing over perceptions, while other SEI do it through practice. It's all about obtaining an accurate set of usable references more than navel gazing or determining where they are in the grand scheme of things, which is more of an N-thing. They like security so want to be prepared for every eventuality. They sometimes seem to repeat the same mistake but each time, there's usually a slight variation like they're homing in on the optimum solution or experience.........
a.k.a. I/O

[Tallmo]

SEI lives in an impressionistic world and they don't do much introspection

But they can have a good connection to their feelings and moods

SEI has a rich but shallow inner life.

But subtype matters. Some H-SEIs can actually be introspecitve.

And, many SEIs have problems in life and this can trigger introspection. So then the basic introverted, accepting attitude can be used to go deeper.

[lemontrees]

As an introvert energy can feel non-abundant, so there's lots of budgeting to make sure you can get around to the essentials. For me, at least. So a trip across the country may seem possibly interesting, but not a priority - or not even worth energy, if there is a negative expectation of how it will turn out.

I can't speak for your person though. We are likely different, and you understand your dynamic better than I do.

[whodat]

As an introvert energy can feel non-abundant, so there's lots of budgeting to make sure you can get around to the essentials. For me, at least.

I've seen this as well so it might be more universal.

So a trip across the country may seem possibly interesting, but not a priority - or not even worth energy, if there is a negative expectation of how it will turn out.

I can't speak for your person though. We are likely different, and you understand your dynamic better than I do.

No this would make very good sense.

[Sol]

F types have problems with objective thinking. Like to understand own types based on logic analysis of factors to understand the probability of types.
S types have issues to understand not surface peoples traits, like motivations. Including own ones.

Hence, S-F may to have higher problems with deep and objective introspection of own psyche.
They may be the worst in accepting and understanding of correct own type. One ESI I know for several years thought herself as IEE - own revisor. Then she've got doubts and came to EII opinion. Being E-9 she still can't get she's ESI, as seems thinks her touchy to external pressing psyche is due to Ne polr type.

[whodat]

F types have problems with objective thinking. Like to understand own types based on logic analysis of factors to understand the probability of types.
S types have issues to understand not surface peoples traits, like motivations. Including own ones.

Hence, S-F may to have higher problems with deep and objective introspection of own psyche.
.

Yes, that is why I started the thread.

As far as objective thinking goes, no, not true. LSE are no less irrational in certain spheres as any other type beyond their realm of influence which is logical actions and awareness. Even then LSE are just as influenced by their feelings and inclinations as anybody else, and often times just as subjective in their reactions to events occurring.

Objectivity is a mental practise that can be developed by anyone.

[Sol]

As far as objective thinking goes, no, not true.

Your F type just prevents you from more objectively correct understanding of Jung's typolog to agree with me.
Thinking relates to T. Objective thinking relates to Te. While F - is opposite to thinking as tends to believe in what gives better emotions than to be objectively correct in thoughts.
Read Jung.

[Bertrand]

I picked Te base as my type because its an automatic I win button

o b j e c t i v e l y t r u e




















































bitches

[whodat]

Your F type just prevents you from more objectively correct understanding of Jung's typolog to agree with me.
Thinking relates to T. Objective thinking relates to Te. While F - is opposite to thinking as tends to believe in what gives better emotions than to be objectively correct in thoughts.
Read Jung.

You dont understand information processing, interesting.

[Number 9 large]

I know a few and lots of what they do seems self defeating and it seems as though they don't have a lot of awareness into the reasons why things are the way they are

---> see selective memory

---> playing naive

---> lack of insight

---> repeating mistakes again and again.

Thoughts?

introvert, trouble with introspection. wot

[Hope]

Probably the things that you mention in the list are true, but I just want to point out that most have nothing to do with introspection, all of them seem focused in externalize things...

---> see selective memory

Selective memory has nothing to do with introspection. Its objectivity about external events.
Judging, perceiving, keeping events according reality, I mean. It would be more a poor perception of external reality than good/bad introspection.

---> playing naive

they seem somewhat naive, I dont thing they play at it. Anyway, its again externalizing something = not related to introspection.

---> lack of insight

You cant judge if someone have good/bad insight, because its purely internal. What you can judge is what someone externalize, and someone can externalize their insights or not.
So, what you are referring to, probably, is that SEIs don't externalize a lot, but thats not related to lack of introspection necessarily.


---> repeating mistakes again and again.

this is the only one that could be related to insight, though, its more related again to externalized behavior than actual insight.
It can also be as lemontrees says...poor performance more than poor/lack of introspection.

Finally, I think that maybe what you are evaluating in SEIs is something different than mere introspection, it sounds more like a lack of externalized knowledge (Te?), or good/proper appreciation/judgment of external events (Se). Maybe you are wanting to see or asking from them something completely opposed to their IEs.

[Bertrand]

yeah its totally possible they're kings of introspection and when the scales are lifted they had the right idea in everything, it was just that people couldn't understand. I mean this sincerely, since introspection is an inner perception and calculation, and both Si and Fi are not particularly communicable states on the level of the verbal functions, which makes them out to be dumb. but its the dumbness of the person who is right but can't articulate themselves vs the verbally fluent and therefore convincing but ultimately wrong person. when I say they're dumb I mean that they can't speak. think of it as being the missing half to their dual, which is full of good ideas and convincing arguments but there's an underlying anarchy to a lot of it. Its almost like SEIs are too good at introspecting since they kind of live in that introspection and they're a victim of the image of a un self aware person, but its more like they're aware of different things. I think self awareness is a product of Ne and Te and its essentially making yourself an object and then inspecting it as if you were a 3rd person observing your interactions with yourself or whoever else, even extrapolating it in time in order to strategize moves you might make as if you treat yourself like a chess piece. I imagine SEI lives more in the first person where they don't disembody themselves like that, rather they sort of organically generate their moves in real time.

I think it goes back to what we mean by introspection. I think Crystal is right that we are using a kind of extroverted definition and criteria for introspection. Now inasmuch as that is the case there's something to be said that they don't meet the expectations set by that definition according to that particular meaning, but then you look at the works of art they create or whatever and its hard to say they're not introspecting because its precisely from inside they're getting a lot of that material. In other words its the unutterable quality of pure introspection that renders it invisible to others and creates the impression that there is nothing going on there at all. But that is likely wrong I think

I would also add that I think there's a certain assumption that introspection would lead to certain behavior, but there's no guarantee, for example, introspection would lead to altruism or politeness or some other metrics people associate with being "self aware" or "insightful." Maybe they looked inside and realized all of that is bullshit. in the final analysis, they lack introspection of the kind we'd expect of an extrovert to exhibit if they introspected

[Jerdle]

SEI won't value introspection, given their membership of Alpha quadra.
The most introspective IEs are and , both devalued in Alpha.

They are also mostly enneagram 9, a type very resistant to introspection,

[consentingadult]

The essential motivation here seems to be avoiding mentally confronting unpleasant issues.

I agree with this. In mainstream psychology this is called Discomfort Avoidance. Although SLIs are more likely to actively engage in discomfort avoidance, whereas SEIs accomplish this by means of comfort creation.

SiFe=comfort creation (or better, discomfort avoidance by means of comfort creation)
SiTe=discomfort avoidance (i.e. comfort creation by discomfort elimination)

I'm not sure what your goal is but recognize that if you do bring something up try to do so in the most diplomatic way possible, rather than putting pressure on them. Try to get them to see your side of it.

I don't quite agree to this. Being involved with an SEI for over 10 years now, I can only say that the social behavior of the SEI is aimed at making others behave as so they do not rock the boat. The result is that you tiptoe around their sensibilities and life in general turns stagnant. Instead, be forceful and demanding with SEIs, but always in a way that in the long run, is good for them. SEIs are the ultimate short-term-gratification people, and will not live up to their potential if not actively taken over the threshold and pushed into behavior that leads to long term gratification. This is especially true of older SEIs, those that are about to experience their midlife crisis.

[consentingadult]

I know a few and lots of what they do seems self defeating and it seems as though they don't have a lot of awareness into the reasons why things are the way they are

---> see selective memory

---> playing naive

---> lack of insight

---> repeating mistakes again and again.

Thoughts?

Well, this is the reason why the need ILEs (or IEEs) in their lives: to overcome exactly these weaknesses, which you got right the first time! SEIs avoid making efforts, they are perfectly capable of having good memory, insight and doing things the right way, their only problem is they are not at all inclined to make an effort. A dual or semi-dual can be motivators in this respect.

However, pair an immature SEI to an immature ILE, and nothing comes of it. For things to work out really well, one of the two has to be emotionally mature, only then can the other be taken over the threshold.

[Exodus]

I don't quite agree to this. Being involved with an SEI for over 10 years now, I can only say that the social behavior of the SEI is aimed at making others behave as so they do not rock the boat. The result is that you tiptoe around their sensibilities and life in general turns stagnant. Instead, be forceful and demanding with SEIs, but always in a way that in the long run, is good for them. SEIs are the ultimate short-term-gratification people, and will not live up to their potential if not actively taken over the threshold and pushed into behavior that leads to long term gratification. This is especially true of older SEIs, those that are about to experience their midlife crisis.

Most Si valuing types will not respond well to people who are forceful and demanding -- it's a great way to destroy your relationship with them, generally speaking. They will respond better to Ne.

[consentingadult]

Most Si valuing types will not respond well to people who are forceful and demanding -- it's a great way to destroy your relationship with them, generally speaking. They will respond better to Ne.

They do, if they have something serious to gain from it, such as a relationship which would otherwise go down the drains. If they don't stand such demands, they are not worth to engage with in the first place.

I have said it before: basically any type leaning to much on their ego functions, is immature.

[Bertrand]

^ that's like Se by definition, although Iwould say a degree of role Se is expected by Si base, so its not entirely out of line but I think like you said it needs to be done withina justifiable Ne context

[Exodus]

They do, if they have something serious to gain from it, such as a relationship which would otherwise go down the drains. If they don't stand such demands, they are not worth to engage with in the first place.

I'm sure they feel the same way about you

[Chae]

SEE and ESE are bigger candidates for that. SEI is doing just fine:

[whodat]

SEE and ESE are bigger candidates for that. SEI is doing just fine:

He is ESE though.

[whodat]

yeah its totally possible they're kings of introspection and when the scales are lifted they had the right idea in everything, it was just that people couldn't understand. I mean this sincerely, since introspection is an inner perception and calculation, and both Si and Fi are not particularly communicable states on the level of the verbal functions, which makes them out to be dumb. but its the dumbness of the person who is right but can't articulate themselves vs the verbally fluent and therefore convincing but ultimately wrong person. when I say they're dumb I mean that they can't speak. think of it as being the missing half to their dual, which is full of good ideas and convincing arguments but there's an underlying anarchy to a lot of it. Its almost like SEIs are too good at introspecting since they kind of live in that introspection and they're a victim of the image of a un self aware person, but its more like they're aware of different things. I think self awareness is a product of Ne and Te and its essentially making yourself an object and then inspecting it as if you were a 3rd person observing your interactions with yourself or whoever else, even extrapolating it in time in order to strategize moves you might make as if you treat yourself like a chess piece.

Nice work here. The only thing is Te doesn't really seem like information that would look inwards like this.

[whodat]

Selective memory has nothing to do with introspection. Its objectivity about external events.
Judging, perceiving, keeping events according reality, I mean. It would be more a poor perception of external reality than good/bad introspection.

I see them as inter-linked anyway.

You cant judge if someone have good/bad insight, because its purely internal.

You can when you are close to them and they share their thoughts and what have you, with you.

What you can judge is what someone externalize, and someone can externalize their insights or not.
So, what you are referring to, probably, is that SEIs don't externalize a lot, but thats not related to lack of introspection necessarily.

Okay, you are just nit picking and missing the point.

---> repeating mistakes again and again.

this is the only one that could be related to insight, though, its more related again to externalized behavior than actual insight.
It can also be as lemontrees says...poor performance more than poor/lack of introspection.

Finally, I think that maybe what you are evaluating in SEIs is something different than mere introspection, it sounds more like a lack of externalized knowledge (Te?), or good/proper appreciation/judgment of external events (Se). Maybe you are wanting to see or asking from them something completely opposed to their IEs.

Yeah, probably.

[Bertrand]

Nice work here. The only thing is Te doesn't really seem like information that would look inwards like this.

can you elaborate some on the second part, please

[whodat]

can you elaborate some on the second part, please

Why certainly, bertrand, no problem.

Actually, I read what you wrote a third time and it could actually be true. Something in-human about it which is why you get the Fi to bridge the divide to humanity.

In reality it looks like this:

[Bertrand]

that is the most badass video I've seen in a long time

[wasp]

I think self awareness is a product of Ne and Te and its essentially making yourself an object and then inspecting it as if you were a 3rd person observing your interactions with yourself or whoever else, even extrapolating it in time in order to strategize moves you might make as if you treat yourself like a chess piece.

I find this so interesting because it echoes my IEE friend's thoughts concerning his heightened self-awareness, like how he has a hard time "letting go" of himself unless he's under the influence of a substance that distracts his mind long enough for him to act naturally (which makes him sound like an addict, but he isn't yet, it's mostly in reference to mild stimulants like coffee) otherwise he loses himself in a rabbit hole of self-meta-analyses, which he'll verbally walk you through if he's comfortable enough with you. who knew a single person could harbor so many thoughts about a relatively insignificant event?

you know that person who realizes that they probably seem sketchy walking through the supermarket without buying anything, and so they try to act the opposite of sketchy in order to correct those assumptions, which has the inverse effect of making them seem even more sketchy, and so on and so forth? yeah, that's him, except it happens with everyone, everyday, everywhere, but it's usually internalized, which makes his behavior fairly hard to read unless you're familiar with him beforehand. it's like he starts weaving a web of long-winded justifications before you've even accused him of anything yet because, at least from his own perspective, he can see why what he just said/did may come across as something other than what it was actually meant to be, like he'll even interrupt himself mid-sentence in order to avoid misunderstandings of that nature, which in turn breeds even more misunderstandings.

I think he has a tendency to orchestrate chaos around himself, inadvertently, which is both sad and stupidly cute to witness as an outside observer.

[Bertrand]

yeah what was hard for me to realize was that not everyone does that, at least not consciously

the thing is though its precisely that projection that gives insight into others unconscious processes, at least sometimes, and makes IEE a natural psychologist

the cost is being kind of a mess a lot of the time

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Maybe. Introspection is overrated though. Most of the SEIs I know do just fine in the real world. Granted the ones I know are all female paired by their ILE duals to do the heavy lifting for them kind of but... people who visit psychology forums a lot are over-estimating the value of introspection. Them being sensors also makes up for a lot of shortcomings.

*chris crocker voice* Leave SEIs alone. /refuses to join in the group bullying of them.

(I'm kinda only this way cuz about a year ago this SEI had a lot of good compassion/empathy for me and I <3 them. You don't need introspection if you are a good person with a kind heart.)

[Tallmo]

I want to clarify what I mentioned earlier.

SEI as a pure type is not introspective imo.

But many people of this type have to undergo adaption to become functional in society, develop weak functions and so on. So this can make them more introspective because they learn to watch themselves.

So SEI type can possibly correlate with being introspective. But as a secondary phenomenon, and not in all cases.

The type is not the same thing as the individual.