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Thread: Classical composers

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    Default Classical composers

    It appears that three classical composers have been typed by recognized Soconists:

    Chopin - INFp. Agreed...I've generally seen Chopin as

    Shostakovitch - INTp. Agreed...Clearly with strong sense of dual reflected in his music.

    Rachmaninoff - INTj. I understand why they say that; I have trouble with it though; maybe it's because Rachmaninoff followed the example of Schumann and Tchaikovsky in seeking to disguise the influence of T. Does anyone think Delta NF for Rachmaninoff?

    Here are some others I propose:
    [EDIT: J.S.] Bach: INTj
    [EDIT: C.P.E Bach: ENTp]
    Handel: ESTj
    Mozart: ENFp
    Tchaikovsky: ESFj
    [EDIT: Felix] Mendelssohn: ENTj
    Beethoven: ISFp (although sometimes I hear his music as if with very strong )
    Liszt: ESFp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Balzac
    I don't think JS was INTj, it doesn't sit right, though I'm not entirely sure what type he might be.
    I agree, it just doesn't seem right
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    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    Quote Originally Posted by Balzac
    I don't think JS was INTj, it doesn't sit right, though I'm not entirely sure what type he might be.
    I agree, it just doesn't seem right
    Why? Some people have proposed ESTj; I don't think that's right either, though. What type characteristics do you think Bach had?

    @Balzac:
    My guess for Stravinsky is ISTp.

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    I think Maurice Ravel is ISTp. INFp makes sense for Chopin but maybe ISFp could work also.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    Quote Originally Posted by Balzac
    I don't think JS was INTj, it doesn't sit right, though I'm not entirely sure what type he might be.
    I agree, it just doesn't seem right
    Why? Some people have proposed ESTj; I don't think that's right either, though. What type characteristics do you think Bach had?
    I'm just thinking about some of the things I've read about him, like how he was in it all for the money and such.
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    There isn't much in Beethoven. Mostly alot of really stormy , IMO. Love it.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    I'm just thinking about some of the things I've read about him, like how he was in it all for the money and such.
    Really?? There wasn't that much money in being a church musician. If he was in it for the money, he should have followed in Handel's footsteps and been a court musician and written operas and such.

    My sense is that biographical information on Bach is a little scanty, but it seems that early on, he had a certain idealism about writing a new kind of music for the church, based on what he had heard by Buxtehude. Later on, he had more conflicts at his various jobs because people thought his stuff was too hard to sing, etc.

    Where did you hear that he was in it for the money? It seems that he wanted to have posts where he could provide sufficiently for himself and his family, but that's different from being in it for the money, isn't it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark
    INFp makes sense for Chopin but maybe ISFp could work also.
    I also hear in Chopin, but it sounds a lot like Str@#$%@#$%skaya's description of in INFps. (See in the sticky under the Beta thread.)

    It's interesting, by the way, how, in that description at least, the super ego block isn't the big bad wolf people seem to think it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    There isn't much in Beethoven. Mostly alot of really stormy , IMO. Love it.
    How do you destinguish between expression of and ? (Actually, I have a post on that too, in the General section.)

    Anyhow, I have a hard time seeing Beethoven as INFj, because the S seems paired with F, and N with T. If it were INFj, it would also give out ESTj vibes (according to my theory that dual sides tend to be always visible in music.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    I'm just thinking about some of the things I've read about him, like how he was in it all for the money and such.
    Really?? There wasn't that much money in being a church musician. If he was in it for the money, he should have followed in Handel's footsteps and been a court musician and written operas and such.

    My sense is that biographical information on Bach is a little scanty, but it seems that early on, he had a certain idealism about writing a new kind of music for the church, based on what he had heard by Buxtehude. Later on, he had more conflicts at his various jobs because people thought his stuff was too hard to sing, etc.

    Where did you hear that he was in it for the money? It seems that he wanted to have posts where he could provide sufficiently for himself and his family, but that's different from being in it for the money, isn't it?
    I have read that he would turn down more prestigious jobs for jobs that would pay double, play at funerals for extra cash, stuff like that. I think there is a difference bewteen providing for your family and being greedy.

    Also he might have been a church organist, but during the sermons, he'd sneak off with girls (before his marriage I hope). Perhaps its all just tabloid speculation, but it just doesn't sound INTj-ish to me
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    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    I have read that he would turn down more prestigious jobs for jobs that would pay double, play at funerals for extra cash, stuff like that. I think there is a difference bewteen providing for your family and being greedy.

    Also he might have been a church organist, but during the sermons, he'd sneak off with girls (before his marriage I hope). Perhaps its all just tabloid speculation, but it just doesn't sound INTj-ish to me
    Sounds like tabloid speculation to me.

    I'd be interested in your sources though; it's always interesting to find out more about composers' lives.

    Whatever he was doing during the services, his music always evokes the quality of a perfect, stable, peaceful, cheerful family life, equally ESFj and INTp at the same time.

    As to playing funerals for extra cash and seeking higher-paying positions, that sounds like the life of a musician. I mean, if he was making a mint and kept doing stuff for money anyway, then it sounds like greed. But when you're trying to make it as a musician, that's what you do....and whenever I read about Bach, his life sounds kind of the way it is for musicians nowadays....you simply do what you have to do, otherwise you end up as a computer programmer or something.

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    I don't remember the source, it was just one of those many tidbits that somehow got lodged in my brain because I thought it was interesting at the time.
    All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    I don't remember the source, it was just one of those many tidbits that somehow got lodged in my brain because I thought it was interesting at the time.
    What about the music? As an INTj, does it sound kind of like the way you think? Or does it foreign?

    Let's flip it around. If you were the composer (and let's assume there are no technical limitations here; i.e., that you have the ability to write whatever you want), what composer's music would the music of your mind sound like?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Let's flip it around. If you were the composer (and let's assume there are no technical limitations here; i.e., that you have the ability to write whatever you want), what composer's music would the music of your mind sound like?
    Probably Chopin or Rachmaninoff. Oddly though my favorite since forever is Mozart.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Let's flip it around. If you were the composer (and let's assume there are no technical limitations here; i.e., that you have the ability to write whatever you want), what composer's music would the music of your mind sound like?
    Probably Chopin or Rachmaninoff. Oddly though my favorite since forever is Mozart.
    It's a very interesting thing...In art, people tend to express their ideal, not necessarily their "ego block." It's not surprising that INTjs may gravitate toware the more Romantic composers....and I suppose that's one reason to think that Rachmaninoff really could be INTj.

    On the other hand, I do think that some people seek to epitomize their own type in their art. I guess it's a matter of choice for the artist, whether to express one's conscious or less conscious side.

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    Default Identifiying the functions in classical music and soundtracks

    This is only well known classical music I've included (bar the soundtracks), but you're welcome to include less well known classical music if you're an elitist snob.


    (I never even knew YouTube videos could be longer than ten minutes.)

    Best. Tune. Ever. Analyse, my friends, analyse. I can't tell if there's Fe in here, or if it's Fi, or something else. I'd be very interested to know what people get from this; be it Fe, Si, Ne or even Ti. Any function. What is the most prominent?



    Everybody's favourite fascist musician. Wagner. I sense a lot of Se, or at least Se valuing, with his powerful and awe-inspiring music.





    Again, a fair bit of Se near the end; has a very militaristic feel to it (and what a surprise, it's celebrating military victory; Russia's victory at the battle of Borodino). It's a brilliant piece overall though, maybe with some Ne in there during most of part one, and much of part two, designed to conjure up what may have happened during the battle through its evocative tones.



    Rachmaninoff. Ne? Fe? Maybe even some Si here, but I can never tell with such a weird function to identify in music.



    Very well known piece from Vivaldi. Probably quite Se-esque.



    Hans Zimmer is soundtrack incarnate. A lot of his stuff is quite shit, but often he will produce something with the capacity to blow anyone clean away. This is a track from The Thin Red Line, a film in my top five. Notice the slow build up, something I'd attribute to Ni (Zimmer's focus on how melodies work together and blend etc. over a gradual build up or increase), and the crashing blend of Se and Fe midway through the track, only to quiten again. Almost like a volcano that erupts and then returns to its inert state. (I heavily advise you to check out the whole album if you're a fan of Zimmer's work.)



    This is a gorgeous piece of music from the film American Beauty. Thomas Newman's signature piano is there, and the melody is sheer brilliance, fitting masterfully with the ambience. Maybe some Ni and Fi here. I still feel quite shit at seeing all the functions at work in music, though, so maybe you can spot something else, or elaborate one what I see in it.



    Vangelis. I chose not to include 1492 Conquest of Paradise, despite its being a fantastic score. With all his soundtracks, there's a lot of Ni, and often quite a bit of either Fe or Se, I can't decide how to differentiate the two. That can be something else people can help me with.



    Parts of this are remiscent of Gladiator: More Music From The Motion Picture, especially the opening. I sense Fe here. Beyond that, I couldn't say.

    Please, someone help me to identify Fi and Si in music. I still cannot do it. Also, Te and Ti exclusively in classical music, where there's no beat, and seemingly no linear rhythm.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    Ti is noticeable in the structure of music, for example -- I would say that the repeating rhythmic motif in Mars from Holst's The Planets is an example of Ti in classical music.

    Other such "repetitive" music, or music with repeating motifs, would be "Ti music" at least to some extent IMO.
    It's not repetitive to be Ti, it's repetitive like that to create a mood.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    That's not the point.
    If it's creating a mood then there's more to it and it's purpose than 'Ti'. I don't understand what you mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    It doesn't matter what the purpose is, it's still Ti.
    The purpose matters. The effect can also matter. We seem to be going round in circles here. I believe we've had (as did Logos with you) a coversation in regards to music recently. However it seems to be important to you, as you've typed a lot out here, so I'm not looking to say your all wrong. I think it would help you tho if you were able to expand your understanding of it more so, rather than just sticking to the (limited?) conclusions you appear to reach.

    Have you posted your overall thoughts on this somewhere? If you haven't, I think it would be a good idea.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    No. Let me explain something to you --

    In a type, the most important thing to protect, to strive for, to whatever, is the leading function. This is the "purpose" of a person.
    And why do you think I would perhaps believe otherwise?
    The creative function is the function that type is most likely to use in aid of the base function, but individuals of all types can be observed using pretty much any function in aid of the leading function, but it does not change the fact that they are using some other function.
    No. Your thinking is far too muddled, and thats maybe what i'm picking up on when your trying to apply aspects to music..

    Sometimes a function is not used in connection with the base function. Sometimes they are used independently. The base function is the dominant one of course, but we can, for short periods, switch others on, and that one off, also.

    The most obvious example is temporarity engaging the role function in place of the dominant function..they cannot both be switched on at the same time. For you to say all the functions in the model always exist to support dominant is therefore incorrect.

    Do you agree?
    Ti is not any less Ti when used for Fe goals. There are many compositional devices that can be used to create a "mood" or whatever, but these compositional devices are not the mood itself!
    But you don't know what was going on in the composers head to know if he or she was using Ti or Fe, so how the music was created is difficult to judge.

    As it stands the importance to the listener, composer and performer of the effect can't be understated.

    My overall thoughts are too internal to write down in full, unfortunately.
    You should try writing a draft, then re-draft it, you might be suprised at how much you've managed to say and it'll probably be pretty much complete by draft no.3..that's if you want to, of course!

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    My attempt at analysing the Rach piece.... Throughout the piece, even in the middle section, there is a very outward focus on order. I think this would normally suggest Te, but given that the intention is to give the piece a military feel this probably points to Te being used to express Se - maybe even Fe, given that it was intended to stir up feelings of nationalism. I think that the plaintive melody in the middle section shows Fi and not Fe. It has a melancholic, nostalgic feel to it which IMO points towards Fi. The emotion seems like it lacks full expression /has a repressed feeling to it. You feel like you're privy to another's internal emotions and reflections rather than the emotion being communicated directly to you or having it wash over you like a wave. That is what I see as the difference btwn Fe and Fi in music.
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    Home, Sweet Home is probably a Fi piece...(as shown in the first two minutes of this clip but you'll have to click it to watch it, as it won't allow embedding).


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    John Cage - 4'33"

    ?
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby View Post
    Ti gone mental I think
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Default Componists

    People like Mozart and Beethoven...

    Which types tend to be great composers?

    I guess they are pretty introverted, hanging around their piano all day long.

    Are they ISFP because of their great feeling of rythem etc?

    Or which type would they be?
    Last edited by Jarno; 10-03-2008 at 11:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    People like Mozart and Beethoven...

    Which types tend to be great componists?

    I guess they are pretty introverted, hanging around their piano all day long.

    Are they ISFP because of their great feeling of rythem etc?

    Or which type would they be?
    I think you mean composers. Kirk Hammett is ISFp and he is a great composer, but I don't think that type is exclusive to musical ability.

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    I know a few diehard Bach fans who are alpha NTs and, if they knew about socionics, would rip their hair out and soil themselves at the sight of Bach as ILI.

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    I don't really like Bach. I don't mind if he's typed as my opposing quadra, maybe Aushra didn't like him either. Too technical, not emotionally uplifting enough for alpha. My big winners for alpha here are Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Rachmaninov, Schumann.

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    K0rpsey & the likes would sometimes claim to know IRL types who defy ones expectations just to prove someone (including what's perceived as "Saint Aushra") wrong. Such things are anyway only informative, should be taken with a grain of salt, especially since the IRL people can be mistyped too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    K0rpsey & the likes would sometimes claim to know IRL types who defy ones expectations just to prove someone (including what's perceived as "Saint Aushra") wrong. Such things are anyway only informative, should be taken with a grain of salt, especially since the IRL people can be mistyped too.
    You're the world's shittiest psychic. I merely pointed out that the loss of Bach to the gamma zone would be protested vociferously by a few definite LIIs and ILEs I know (supposing they knew of socionics; the ones I've mentioned it to have dismissed it as statistical astrology and balderdash), most especially the fellow who reminds me a great deal of you. Personally I don't give a rat's ass what type any of these composers are, their biographical details, their favorite ice cream, or much of anything else about them except whether their music resonates with me.

    Better luck during your next mentalist exhibition, Effie. It might help if you didn't try so hard.

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    My post was not directed at you as much as at people who get misguided by such claims in general. I'm also exemplifying with my IRL examples, I may have mistyped, I may want to push my opinion too, however IMO you have a contrarian mindset, basically everyone who dealt with you on this forum knows. You're using this "I know IRL people who do/don't do that" just because you can, and because no one can prove you wrong. However you can't prove they're true as well, such arguments won't go above the status of possibility without a tangible backup.

    Here's another example: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...166#post780166. Does that bare assertion make it true? I could have come and state I know 27 NFs using neti pot. Total bluff. Considering that most of the time you don't have reasonable arguments, you have a relativistic view on truthfulness, you like to argue and misrepresent people for fun, we have all the reasons to believe this is yet another bluff of yours. For your IRL examples to weight anything, you need to prove reasonableness, understanding and honesty first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    derailment noises
    Instead of wrecking this thread with your usual fallacious complaints about fallacious arguments, please make visitor comments on my user page and you can continue losing at ping-pong there.

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    Going by their music alone and knowing just a little bit about their life:

    Bach - seems very alpha to me. I'd type him as ILE.
    Vivaldi - EII.
    Chopin - IEI or EIE.
    Beethoven - ILI.
    Borodin - I can see EII/IEE.
    Mozart - ILE.

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    I know he was a Romantic composer, and the period was the pinnacle of Se and Fe, but Mussorgsky as an ILI? That seems strange to me.

    Camille Saint-Saëns - SEI?

    Also, on the point of what composer I sound like in my head, it'd be the Mushishi soundtrack or SayCeT.

    Fi + Ne.

    Could just be my brain being contaminated by all the bleep bloop I grew up on
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Bach - seems very alpha to me. I'd type him as ILE.
    Mozart - ILE.


    Are you sure you're looking at the same composers I am? Please explain yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverend View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Bach - seems very alpha to me. I'd type him as ILE.
    Mozart - ILE.


    Are you sure you're looking at the same composers I am? Please explain yourself.
    You presumptuous brat, I won't explain myself. The Well Tempered Clavier to me is a very Ti thing to do, if there was such a thing.

  38. #38
    Haitus Neverend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    You presumptuous brat, I won't explain myself. The Well Tempered Clavier to me is a very Ti thing to do, if there was such a thing.
    What, a common theory cycle? There is no Ti in that, or especially Ne: it's all the same foundation, a common sense of efficiency in writing. Maybe it doesn't appeal to your Ne, but it's Ni and Te that repeat solidly formed techniques. Can't you read a description of the alpha quadra first before coming to that conclusion. Bach is one of the most Fe devoid composers I've heard, and not an inventor but an obvious reorganizer of common patterns/techniques, and here's some musical education for you: compare to a Ti method of structurizing, which so obviously doesn't reform patterns to complement a certain style, but redevelops the root of the composition's structure each time, and the diversity of Fe-valuing in this piece of music (which can equally be summarized in terms of solid foundations, ie. common emotions forced): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90MuPqYtV_k#t=3m5s

    Tell me any Alpha NT on that list who can't do close to that.

    Well tempered clavier, hah. Do you really expect an ILE genius to be so boring? At least Mussorgsky, a likely ILI, was highly influenced by the romantic era, you can still tell how traditional to his adopted knowledge he's trying to "get right" without having the proper education. Alpha for both of them is out of the question. Mussorgsky to a Ti valuer after a while is like listening to a pendulum.
    Last edited by Neverend; 06-15-2011 at 05:57 AM.

  39. #39
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Mozart is a XXTj type...



    INTj or ENTj sounds good


  40. #40
    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
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