Why Quadras are overrated.

[Chae]

Hello! I am here to introduce the latest scandal because I'm a fool

There are quite a few factors that, when you put a lot of weight on them, contradict the importance of quadra thinking.


I) All 4 types in a quadra possess a different spirit aka temperament. E.g.: Mirrors completely oppose one another: SEE and ESI as Ep and Ij. That's yin and yang!
II) The demonstratives add further variety to this: Hugo's and Don Quixote's are like day and night. To another and to Alpha itself.
III) Blocked IMs are used for two quadras. Such as not being unique to Gamma, no: it is also present in the supposed contra-quadra Alpha, let that sink in. Thus, quadra values become less clear, also refer to III.
IV) Clubs pretty much break up quadra associations. IRL you do find artists, socialites, etc. in one place. Guess why duals are from very polar "realms" that don't overlap one bit.
V) Plainly, quadras create baseless xenophobia and are often used to distance yourself from somebody you just don't like, even out of non-socionical reasons.
VI) Even your conflictor has the same element strengths as your dual, just flipped around in the model. Only that difference keeps you apart. And oh! Your conflictor's dual is suspiciously similar to you.
VII) What you prefer (values) competes with what you can metabolize way too much to be ignored.
VIII) It's difficult to sum up the essence of quadras as types are so diverse. Saying Beta focusses on alienates Maxim, Gamma on excludes Dreiser...
IX) There is no common goal for each quadra (except maybe Beta Jk), every type has their own mission and niche in life based on their 4D elements/ego block that are inevitably expressed and manifested.
X) Putting together quadras because of value/model-based duality alone isn't enough. If you had A+ relations with all other 4 members unlike with the rest of the socion it'd be fine! But like this, it is highly limiting and stifles the legitimate potential of for instance semi-duality (!), kindred, mirage, business, that might trump mirror and identicals in quality simply because they complement/compensate for your lacking elements while still providing common ground. Quadra distinction in general creates needless pessimism around certain relations that does not hold true to experience. I will still love Esenin because I can

Consequently, we should either go way easier on the quadra idea or dare to completely abolish it which I advocate.


Now your turn. Add, agree, or criticize - Go.

[Bertrand]

yeah agreed, lets do away with quadras

the idea of quadras is just sanctioning fights between people who otherwise might resort to reconciliation; instead, people can just say, "well its muh quadra" and not bother to try and see other people's points of view. I feel like if we abolished the idea of quadras people would get along better and that is the goal of everything after all. there is no way they'd find some other reason to justify their differences, but even if they do, anything that gets used wrongly or is even capable of being used wrongly should be eliminated or minimized because its one less excuse available to wrongdoers and we can eventually eliminate all potentially harmful ideas if we try hard enough, and then bad people will be left with only good ideas to believe--! aha! take that bad people you will be forced to be good for lack of options, I love it.

other ideas we should get rid of:

• money
• religion
• national borders
• gender

[hatchback176]

I am definitely sensing jealousy & envy for the Gamma Quadra because who else got it like this? We got the political world, the business world, the entertainment industry, and the technology industry.

[Bertrand]

gamma is also known to have the hottest babes and probably the most airplanes per capita

[hatchback176]

1) If I'm reading the trend correctly then we should be using Extraverted coordination guidelines that link the complete set of information elements to communicate complete thoughts:
A. Multi-Level
B. Inter-Disciplinary
C. Cross-Cultural
D. Big-picture
Can we stop appeals to ignorance, selective attention, and appeals to popularity from destroying a systematic approach?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechan...nic_solidarity

2) Sociology, Developmental Psychology, Transpersonal Psychology, and Neuroscience are telling people:
A. An organized method for attaining knowledge about society.
B. There are specific routes to skill development
C. A manner of relating to others in a compatible and harmonious way
D. Thought patterns for activating and drawing blood circulation to specific parts of the brain

3) I know I'm a well-rounded human being with meta-cognitive awareness stuck in a world of people that can't even meditate let alone think coherently about the human condition.

[Sol]

Quadras is about same values. Other is additional hypotheses.

> Your conflictor's dual is suspiciously similar to you.

Chae's conspiracy intensifies

> What you prefer (values) competes with what you can metabolize way too much to be ignored.

You can "metabolize" better your valued functions. If you may ignore your values (as is seen in your behavior strange for IEE), then probably you have other type.

> Putting together quadras because of value/model-based duality alone isn't enough.

Not enough for Chae. That was very important to know.

P.S. Chae closes to the understanding of having other values, than delta. That's why her crusade here against quadras which represent same values. I suspect mostly EIE as her type.

We got the political world, the business world

Se. beta is near

> the entertainment industry, and the technology industry

NT is alphas also. Much of entertainment is Fe related.

other ideas we should get rid of:[*]money[*]religion[*]national borders[*]gender

Brains make people mostly different and even dangerous! So you should to get rid them as first. Slaves should not have not only children (sex), families and high spiritual thinking (religion), but brains!

[Number 9 large]

Hello! I am here to introduce the latest scandal because I'm a fool

There are quite a few factors that, when you put a lot of weight on them, contradict the importance of quadra thinking.


I) All 4 types in a quadra possess a different spirit aka temperament. E.g.: Mirrors completely oppose one another: SEE and ESI as Ep and Ij. That's yin and yang!
II) The demonstratives add further variety to this: Hugo's and Don Quixote's are like day and night. To another and to Alpha itself.
III) Blocked IMs are used for two quadras. Such as not being unique to Gamma, no: it is also present in the supposed contra-quadra Alpha, let that sink in. Thus, quadra values become less clear, also refer to III.
IV) Clubs pretty much break up quadra associations. IRL you do find artists, socialites, etc. in one place. Guess why duals are from very polar "realms" that don't overlap one bit.
V) Plainly, quadras create baseless xenophobia and are often used to distance yourself from somebody you just don't like, even out of non-socionical reasons.
VI) Even your conflictor has the same element strengths as your dual, just flipped around in the model. Only that difference keeps you apart. And oh! Your conflictor's dual is suspiciously similar to you.
VII) What you prefer (values) competes with what you can metabolize way too much to be ignored.
VIII) It's difficult to sum up the essence of quadras as types are so diverse. Saying Beta focusses on alienates Maxim, Gamma on excludes Dreiser...
IX) There is no common goal for each quadra (except maybe Beta Jk), every type has their own mission and niche in life based on their 4D elements/ego block that are inevitably expressed and manifested.
X) Putting together quadras because of value/model-based duality alone isn't enough. If you had A+ relations with all other 4 members unlike with the rest of the socion it'd be fine! But like this, it is highly limiting and stifles the legitimate potential of for instance semi-duality (!), kindred, mirage, business, that might trump mirror and identicals in quality simply because they complement/compensate for your lacking elements while still providing common ground. Quadra distinction in general creates needless pessimism around certain relations that does not hold true to experience. I will still love Esenin because I can

Consequently, we should either go way easier on the quadra idea or dare to completely abolish it which I advocate.


Now your turn. Add, agree, or criticize - Go.

so thats why u ignore me. conflictor love yo

[Exodus]

I roughly agree. But at the same time quadras are more meaningful than 90% of the concepts people use on this forum (like temperaments, Enneagram, etc) so I really don't think it's a problem.

VIII) It's difficult to sum up the essence of quadras as types are so diverse. Saying Beta focusses on alienates Maxim, Gamma on excludes Dreiser...
IX) There is no common goal for each quadra (except maybe Beta Jk), every type has their own mission and niche in life based on their 4D elements/ego block that are inevitably expressed and manifested.

This in particular I agree with. It's very very hard to discern the "essences" of the quadras -- it's easier to distinguish valued Fi, valued Se, etc. which is why I prefer them as observations.
My research indicates that every type has a different goal in life and the quadras are only partly compatible in this respect.

[Aylen]

Going by this thread, most self typed gammas here are looking like underachievers. Get out there and take advantage of your "advantage"?



If you aren't multimillionaires, or at least sleeping with one, I am disappointed in you.

Edit: Video got a bit gross. I should have watched it all first.

[Alomoes]

Hello! I am here to introduce the latest scandal because I'm a fool

There are quite a few factors that, when you put a lot of weight on them, contradict the importance of quadra thinking.


I) All 4 types in a quadra possess a different spirit aka temperament. E.g.: Mirrors completely oppose one another: SEE and ESI as Ep and Ij. That's yin and yang!
II) The demonstratives add further variety to this: Hugo's and Don Quixote's are like day and night. To another and to Alpha itself.
III) Blocked IMs are used for two quadras. Such as not being unique to Gamma, no: it is also present in the supposed contra-quadra Alpha, let that sink in. Thus, quadra values become less clear, also refer to III.
IV) Clubs pretty much break up quadra associations. IRL you do find artists, socialites, etc. in one place. Guess why duals are from very polar "realms" that don't overlap one bit.
V) Plainly, quadras create baseless xenophobia and are often used to distance yourself from somebody you just don't like, even out of non-socionical reasons.
VI) Even your conflictor has the same element strengths as your dual, just flipped around in the model. Only that difference keeps you apart. And oh! Your conflictor's dual is suspiciously similar to you.
VII) What you prefer (values) competes with what you can metabolize way too much to be ignored.
VIII) It's difficult to sum up the essence of quadras as types are so diverse. Saying Beta focusses on alienates Maxim, Gamma on excludes Dreiser...
IX) There is no common goal for each quadra (except maybe Beta Jk), every type has their own mission and niche in life based on their 4D elements/ego block that are inevitably expressed and manifested.
X) Putting together quadras because of value/model-based duality alone isn't enough. If you had A+ relations with all other 4 members unlike with the rest of the socion it'd be fine! But like this, it is highly limiting and stifles the legitimate potential of for instance semi-duality (!), kindred, mirage, business, that might trump mirror and identicals in quality simply because they complement/compensate for your lacking elements while still providing common ground. Quadra distinction in general creates needless pessimism around certain relations that does not hold true to experience. I will still love Esenin because I can

Consequently, we should either go way easier on the quadra idea or dare to completely abolish it which I advocate.


Now your turn. Add, agree, or criticize - Go.

That is interesting. I do agree that talking to a mirror is less satisfying than, say your activator, but hey. Quadra really works when at least one dual is present, or with an activator. The mirror is probably the worst of inter-quadra relations. That being said, it still is quite nice to be in.

Sounds like when I mentioned that more things go on then just functions.

So. Mirage relations huh? Means in theory I should be kind of stagnating here. Hey, whatever, probably wrong.

You aren't wrong with most of those things, by the way. Like it is true, each type has their goal. It's more to say that the quadras are like a place where people with the solutions to the other's problems lie.

Semi-duality is nice, but I've found ESTps talk way too fast and briefly for me. It is weird. Then the walls of text response aren't answered and such.

My experiences with INTj are quite interesting, actually. I tend to ask him to do me favors, because we're friends, he's smart, so on and so forth. All the good signs. He doesn't. He sends me videos he thinks I'd like, and I don't. I don't know. I did show him an example of the dual, and it did turn out to be his conflictor, by the way. Oh, and it isn't suspiciously similar, like he's very different from me. We just like the same stuff.

He'd probably get along with my ISFp brother though. They both have similar interests.

Finally, I'd not worry more about the I and J aspect. It really is meaningless. It is more about the functions.

[Exodus]

V) Plainly, quadras create baseless xenophobia and are often used to distance yourself from somebody you just don't like, even out of non-socionical reasons.

Also about this one. There is the "not in my quadra" phenomenon but this is an issue that has to do with socionics as a whole. People are always going to associate their personal feelings with typings because the relationships do exist, and some of them are better than others. The only way out is to try to be objective and see when your feelings are based on other factors like ideology, culture, etc. You're not going to like everyone in your quadra but some people are more aware of that than others.

[Stellafera]

On the other hand, I feel like the quadra groupings contribute to Socionics' lack of anti-sensor bias. People are forced to make comparisons between S and N types as equals, which is a wonderful device to prevent the "Intuitive = smart, Sensor = dumb" that plagues MBTI.

I agree with the "everything but your quadra sucks" problem, though.

[Bertrand]

its the difference between valid defeasbible reasoning v allowing the same statements to conceptually degenerate into stereotypes in the mind of the reader. What you see people do a lot is complain that anything less than a complete and deductively valid statement of anything is somehow deficient as a piece of reliable knowledge, when in fact, quite often, the opposite is true: the piece of knowledge is useful and true to that precise extent. Thus you could say that up until the concept of Quadra becomes prejudicial to the extent that it negatively effects relationships it is valid but not beyond [1]. That would be I think the actual point in here, but it is phrased in terms of poking holes in the concept by way of pointing out what it fails to do. Which is a lot like criticizing blue because you can't paint your house red with it. The point is, what does quadra function to do [2], and does it succeed within that particular scope? misuse beyond the scope are things any concept can be rejected for, which was the point about how one can poke holes in anything, except that which is deductively proven to a certainty. except we know that via the incompleteness theorem such a goal is in principle impossible, which is to say Ne can poke holes in anything. I would agree with Sol that its this kind of negativism that generates energy for beta quadra and this sort of thing is characteristic of EIE, because its very Ti suggestive (and witness the varying reactions). The good thing is Victor "el diablo" Gulenko is on the case for the above reasons because he has his own EIE whispering in his ear about how people need their concepts nailed down better lest bad things happen. It also sort of ignores the people who can control themselves, but if everyone could it would put the Ti/Fe types out of a job, so this is still good work

On the other hand, I feel like the quadra groupings contribute to Socionics' lack of anti-sensor bias.

the notion of quadra contributes to a lot of good things. Chae didn't see fit to present both sides however

There are quite a few factors that, when you put a lot of weight on them, contradict the importance of quadra thinking

this is true of every and all possible judgements. "when you weigh these factors (the cons) heavily, it contradicts the other (the pros)"--true!

the bottom line is though, we're essentially talking about rejecting concepts purely in terms of their truth value solely on the basis of the harm they might do under conditions of misuse or misunderstanding which is a weird form of conceptual gun control, its decidedly authoritarian, because who decides what's true because people might misuse it, it begs the question as to what constitutes misuse, first of all, and reserves the authority to make such decisions to an individual. its essentially the pope declaring heresies "quadra is a heresy" etc. this seems like more beta quadra shenanigans in the realm of Singu declaring all socionics a waste of time by fiat, etc. its an interesting form of thought control that presupposes the categorical legitimacy of such an endeavor (Aristocracy). I think in the long run no matter how well intentioned this sort of thinking is, it is antithetical to democracy. which is interesting because it raises the issue "this is all for the greater good!", yes but, good for whom? in the long run maybe better for certain quadra..?





[1] this is ultimately just another restatement that socionics is fundamentally therapeutic in its aims (and therapy is a form of engineering). hence you get the mathematicians spergin' out over the statements of the engineers

[2] "failures" of the red-blue kind implicate an underlying Ne context shift, meaning the validity of those criticisms rely completely on context that is being toyed with and implicates values and aims that may or may not be shared, in order to reach subsidiary conclusions that "support" the overall critique. Is blue a defect for not being red?

[at sirac son of sirac]

@Chae,

I doubt you were expecting much agreement on this thread, so that's OK, hopefully there is some positives on the thread for you too. Really, socionics is about taking out it what's needed for you. But, when you mention,

xenophobia
zɛnəˈfəʊbɪə/
noun

• dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries

I would be careful not to confuse personal opinion, political bias, with a 'safe space' of socionics being non-PC.

For myself, I've got on with people in many quadras, however, there's a difference. When I think of people in my life, even those who i've disagreed with, the types that I look back on the most fondly, and even if we disagreed, there was still a mutual level of understanding, have been those types within my quadra.

I wouldn't 'not work' with someone outwith my quadra, but truthfully, a slightly annoying person in my quadra, has gave me better relaxation for working with or spending time with, than an OK person who's outwith my quadra.

As for relationships of non-quadra, yes they exist and there's long term marriages with them, but it's not about that: it's not about not having conflict or differences of opinion, the difference within quadra is how those differences are worked out.

VIII) It's difficult to sum up the essence of quadras as types are so diverse. Saying Beta focusses on alienates Maxim, Gamma on excludes Dreiser...

I don't enjoy to pick on one thing, but this is something a bit typical to your post - everyone knows that quadras are diverse, likewise, everyone knows that a group of people (millions or more) in one type are diverse. The sensible way to read descriptions is to take them as the whole, not to look at individual aspects. It makes me suspect among other things that maybe your type isn't Ne lead, but maybe another extravert type - but, I am just a person at a computer with no real way of knowing, just suspicions.

Which is why I say, socionics is what you take from it, if type is wrong but it's a comfortable mask to wear while developing your own self, then at least it's serving some purpose than none.

[Tallmo]

This feels more like argument for the sake of argument. It's pretty evident from reality that the Quadra is a very useful grouping of people. This is where people feel naturally at home.

[xerx]

Clubs ST / NT / NF / SF are more useful to me than quadrants.

[The Reality Denialist]

For what purpose is the question...

Possibly misapplying or tipping toe on on water for the sake of experimentation..

[Alomoes]

Also about this one. There is the "not in my quadra" phenomenon but this is an issue that has to do with socionics as a whole. People are always going to associate their personal feelings with typings because the relationships do exist, and some of them are better than others. The only way out is to try to be objective and see when your feelings are based on other factors like ideology, culture, etc. You're not going to like everyone in your quadra but some people are more aware of that than others.

Actually, this is debatable. I have "scared them" away so to speak, but really, I just had a quadra meet up, and it was pretty nice. Like spooky nice.

It was funny, actually.

Only people who say this don't know the truth.

[Tallmo]

A majority of marriages are in the same quadra. Like almost all of them (+ semidual). People don't marry clubs etc.

That's because that's where the compatibility is when close psychological distance. Quadra is extremely important. Also in close friendships. Almost always same quadra.

[squark]

everyone knows that quadras are diverse, likewise, everyone knows that a group of people (millions or more) in one type are diverse. The sensible way to read descriptions is to take them as the whole, not to look at individual aspects.

Unfortunately, not everyone knows this. You will see people take a sentence out of context and apply it to a person or type without understanding what that's referring to as a whole, and why it is part of the description. You'll also see people take a single person they know irl, who may be typed wrong, and then try to say an entire type is like this because this one person is. So, no, it'd be nice if people would do this, but many don't.

To me, it's kind of like you're describing the concept of what a dog is to someone. "Dog" is the type and other types might be cats or elephants or whatever. And each of the individual authors are talking about what a dog is, but the people describing them have only the dogs they know in mind. Some might know primarily Golden Retrievers, others know primarily Dobermans, and these are very different dogs, but they're all dogs. So, you have to step back and say, "What do these all have in common, what's the underlying theme here?" and the underlying theme for a socionics type is of course its functional arrangement, so that should be the focus. But when someone tries to describe a Chihuahua's traits that are unique only to the Chihuahua as being indicative of dogs as a whole and you're looking at a St. Bernard, you're not going to see much in common there. And this happens all the time here ime. And when you try to tell them that "A tiny bug-eyed creature with a yippy bark" is not really what a dog is and that it's missing the whole point, they won't believe you and get upset because that's all they know and that picture of dog is all they can see. Put a St. Bernard in front of them instead and they won't even recognize it as the same kind of animal because it's not a tiny bug-eyed thing like the Chihuahua.

Anyway that long tangent was just to say, yeah, I agree that's the sensible approach, but not everyone will do that or even recognize the diversity in a type.

Why Quadras are overrated.

For typing other forum members, yeah they are grossly overrated. I agree with that. And the whole "I don't like you, get out of MY quadra " thing is ridiculous, childish, and they usually completely misunderstand what makes a type a type to begin with. And some people are more social/tribal oriented than others, so develop a greater affinity for being part of a group and making sure that group is all people they personally approve of. I don't think they can even wrap their minds around the idea that not everyone is like that.

Also, it's clear to me that you can get along reasonably well with people of all quadras, and the world is not segregated into pieces like that, you do have to navigate all areas. Many areas you find yourself in most often will be heavily occupied by other members of your club, of the opposite quadra as well as your own. But people venture outside of these areas all the time, and if you can't interact with other types, other clubs, and other quadras then you're not going to have an easy time navigating the world at all.

However, I've found that it's easier to understand where people are coming from when it's a familiar mental space that they're coming from. Listening to my mirror talk even when I disagree with them, they make sense to me. I get why they're saying what they are. On the other hand something I have seen with a few Te egos, we can agree quite often but it's easy to see that we operate such different mental spaces, coming from such different places that when we disagree there's no way for me to build a bridge from their mental space to mine. I can't get them to see from my vantage point, and don't see enough from theirs either to find a way in. Sharing experiences helps this, having other things in common, and just friendly interactions in general, but it's still a different way of seeing things and thinking about things than I have. And here sharing a club might actually make it worse lol, because that means they don't have the Ni and I don't have the Ne that might help out.

[Raver]

From my experience, when it comes to short term relations, quadras are overrated, but when it comes to long term relations, quadras are underrated. Just because you're in the same quadra as someone does not mean you're going to automatically click and get along. You're just as likely to get along as someone with the opposing quadra as you are with someone in the same quadra in the short term. You're also just as likely to have conflict with someone in the same quadra in the short term as you are to get along with them due to non-type related reasons.

However, in the long term that is when quadra relations start to shine, but the chances of this happening are not guaranteed. A long term relation could be a long term relationship, a family member or a close friend. Basically someone that you will spend a lot of time with, which is not many people as acquaintances or relatives outside of your immediate family are not people you are going to see quite often. Then when you add in enneagram type, instinctual stacking, tri-type and superficial factors, this makes things even more complex resulting in unpredictable scenarios IMO.

[wacey]

Yawn.

[Alomoes]

Yawn.

How rude.

[Alomoes]

My thoughts on this is that the Quadra is where you go to have fun and be safe, possibly even heal. However, personal growth seems to happen outside of the quadra. I recommend Super-Ego relations for that, if you have the tolerance, like I do. It's like antimatter meeting matter for a brief moment behind a thin wall such that the anti-matter and matter don't eliminate each other, only part comes into contact. I don't know if you'd call it growth. That, is debatable, my friends.

[Exodus]

From my experience, when it comes to short term relations, quadras are overrated, but when it comes to long term relations, quadras are underrated. Just because you're in the same quadra as someone does not mean you're going to automatically click and get along. You're just as likely to get along as someone with the opposing quadra as you are with someone in the same quadra in the short term. You're also just as likely to have conflict with someone in the same quadra in the short term as you are to get along with them due to non-type related reasons.

However, in the long term that is when quadra relations start to shine, but the chances of this happening are not guaranteed. A long term relation could be a long term relationship, a family member or a close friend. Basically someone that you will spend a lot of time with, which is not many people as acquaintances or relatives outside of your immediate family are not people you are going to see quite often. Then when you add in enneagram type, instinctual stacking, tri-type and superficial factors, this makes things even more complex resulting in unpredictable scenarios IMO.

"long term" is not the right word here. Close relationships are where it matters.

[Raver]

"long term" is not the right word here. Close relationships are where it matters.

I agree, I should of been more specific and indicated long term close relationships for my terminology, but that was the crux of what I was getting at in my post when looked at its entirety though.

[Skepsis]

Yes, they are overrated, like duality, because stereotypes of stereotypes of stereotypes are never very useful.

[Alomoes]

Yes, they are overrated, like duality, because stereotypes of stereotypes of stereotypes are never very useful.

Quadras are why redpill works so well. Half of them are ESFp, and half are ESFj.

[The Reality Denialist]

NIMQ!

Gulenko claims that irrationality/irrationality could easily be easily more preferable over quadra preferences within neighboring quadras.

[AbZero]

Quadras are somewhat limited in their usefulness since most attention and value goes to the base function. Still wouldn't get rid of quadras completely though.

[Chae]

Quadras are somewhat limited in their usefulness since most attention and value goes to the base function. Still wouldn't get rid of quadras completely though.

Is it too revolutionary?

[powerrainbowcrystal]

They are overrated in a sense. But I'd wager it's hell for a Fi valuer to be around all Fe valuers and vice-versa etc. Certain opposing types want to annihilate each other but certain types are 'bridges' for everybody to get along. These four types I think are:

Alpha: sei/Beta: iei/Gamma: see/Delta: iee

[Bertrand]

totally agree, there's a logic version of that list too that goes something like LII LSI LIE LSE, in other words its logical rationals and ethical irrationals that bridge that gap

I think it has to do with the scope of their ego functions being broad based and inclusive thus it tends to incorporate out of quadra views in order to build something solid that, limited to quadra only, would not satisfy them entirely. in other words LII wants to toy with and reconcile all ideas, LSI wants to create the most solid structure, LIE wants to generate the most productive idea, LSE wants to manage all types, etc all of these benefit and in some sense require drawing from the outside in order to realize most effectively. in this case the logic of endeavor attempts to transcend perceptions

in the same way ethical types to create a broader harmony draw on irrational perceptions in order to incorporate and honor natural human differences and make peace between them, i.e.: less rigidly ideological, to transcend rationality