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Thread: Fe polr compared to Fi polr

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I get the feeling it would be like trying to explain sight to a blind man, so ill leave it to the lyric if they want to make that their mission.
    Everyone needs a calling and a little discussed phenomenon is after all the drama and if there is growth and health, these two types can mate for a long time. Where else is the SLE going to find someone who can manuever and understand while being the right hand to the king? Lol Im just kidding. No one ever said the IEis put up with shitty behaviour like some broken serf.

    in any case the idea that you can reduce Fi to a Ti consideration is the idea in contention.
    Please elaborate I dont understand this fully yet.

    that SLE doesn't understand or admit it, proves my point. Reinin summed it up nicely when he said it can hardly be given words. for someone who identifies exclusively with words it might as well not exist, which is precisely the basis for the SLE IEI pairing
    I don’t understand this yet either. Do you mean SLE are words people or that IEI are words people? Because—> no way are SLE words people. Sensing first and Always energy/object sensing first and foremost. Sensing is a very intuitve touchy feely process. —-> IEI are not just word people, they participate in life just like anybody else. —>Ti is creative and like all creatives it gets shut off frequently.

    Regarding polr: all polr are explainable and workable and cope-able. Right? You need a little bit of everything. Thats my personal conviction and as someone who practises this stuff, like tons of people here Im sure, I can adapt because Im aware of the map (IE-Function position). And also UPBRINGING. Like I cant stress that enough.

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    Ti is words, words aren't intuitions so much as rational formulation. what the words mean and are intended to represent can be concrete or abstract perceptions. the problem is all rational functions use words, so confusion arises because people unknowingly equivocate between eachother, which is a product of projection. I can't really express how I experience Fi in relation to Ti without making Ti sound autistic. Fe bridges the gap of ethics to Ti, it knows how to "reach" Ti in some kind of way but what Fe and Ti valuing both fundamentally share is an ontological commitment to Ti as the "ground" on which reality is logically structured. Its this common understanding that by definition excludes affect as an introverted rational consideration, rather relegating it to a kind of black box. when these types proclaim people irrational its more a statement on their own irrational perception than a statement about the actual rationality of the person in question. in other words, the irrationality is their picture of the other person, whereas the rationality is missed like two ships in the night. obviously mutual understanding is possible but its hard not to privilege one in the description, I think its fair to say socionics tries to contextualize Fi within a Ti system and does a very good job of it, but there is irreducible difficulty in conveying the what its like across type. it is nothing less than the problem of intersubjectivity itself. in any case the strength of lyric is to convey to SLE certain aspects of reality in language they can understand, while maintaining its "relevance" so as not to be "excluded" by SLE as a threat; rather it is seen as a help. it manages to bring to SLE's attention ethical concern that would be incomprehensible in Fi terms, but since its in a Fe package it manages to get through because it presents itself "objectively" which is how SLE likes their ethics. they might prefer to call this "relevant to their interests" and therefore "real", but it goes back to how its formulated which is from a shared Ti worldview. Fi from the point of view of Ti is inscrutable because its like they say things that make no "logical" (Ti) sense.

    Like when I said today in class "work breaks are within the scope of employment" the Ti types got kind of irritated with me, because to them by definition a "break" is defined in distinction to "employment" as being a "break from work" i.e.: not within the scope. But if you realize the question at issue is Fi ethical question as to whether or not (Te) plaintiffs can recover from businesses on a respondeat superior theory from an employee who injured them while on a break, you realize the "scope of employment" doesn't mean work/not work but "should we hold this entity responsible for creating the conditions that lead to the injury" and in that sense breaks should be considered a part of employment, inasmuch as employers include breaks in the furtherance of their business venture, which they do (because within work the concept of bathroom and food breaks are necessarily nested, because people work precisely to eat [the break in question was a 15 minute meal break], hence it unconscionable disavow accidents on a break as somehow being categorically separate from scope of employment when the whole reason the person was in that situation was that they were employed). Anyway, this is the sort of divide between Ti and Fi which is far more subtle than I think people realize. SLE would just cut it off with, employment is when you're literally fulfilling only those duties explicitly enumerated in your job description (they're not really interested in construing the language with a Fi slant--in other words its a battle over what the words represent and what we should do with them). To me this is slightly autistic because of how much it ignores, but it proceeds straightforwardly on the basis of those relatively simple and few logical premises in order to reach their conclusion. SLE needs someone like IEI who understands this and thinks in this way to convey via Fe any missing information, which from my point of view takes the form of wailing and so forth. There is a myth that Fi language is necessarily flowery. This is actually Fe, and also why IEI not EII is lyric. Fi language is more language that may or may not be flowery but is more ethically charged in the sense of say literature v science. it is a vector for introverted rationality, which is structural and comprehensive in its scope, which is what a great novel usually is with its far ranging and complex interactions between characters, but usually with some kind of "spine" or "skeleton" of Fi underlying it all, which is what its "message" tends to be. you can think of JK Rowlings archetypal themes in Harry Potter as being a form of Fi Ne, fleshed out not as a poeticism per se but as a rational work of a far ranging yet centrally integrated scope. a moral rather than scientific treatise if you will. a logical version of the same thing would be like Aristotle's "nichomachean ethics" (if you look closely he actually seems to be exhibiting a form of fi suggestive in his "look to good people to begin one's analysis"). Virtue ethics is generally awesome for this reason, because it admits the interplay between people who first embody ethics and then only later are they understood as such and codified by others, and subsequently promulgated to society in the form of articulated rules, which is precisely how the clock of the socion also understands things, but I digress..
    Last edited by Bertrand; 01-12-2018 at 01:40 AM.

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    @Betrand

    You make good logical points there just seems be this underlying irrational hatred sometimes when you make a post about Betas or Fe valuers or SLE/IEIs or often all of the above. Did a Beta molest you as a kid or something? I just don't always get it. You then often say 'don't get me wrong, I like xxx' after some long hannibal-ish tirade against the entire quadra to try and smooth things out but I'm not sure if it works out that well lol. Do Gammas show their affection by over analyzing everything to death?

    I get that we suck sometimes but jeesh, I'm not a dog. Rubbing my nose in my shit isn't the way to make me learn better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starrangel View Post
    One dimensional Fi is pretty bad, you do a bunch of horrible ethical no-nos that other people just take for granted. Not just polr, but LSE/LIE suggestive Fi as well. ......

    Instead of always shitting on SLE for being immoral (which is very easy) I think we should encourage them in jobs that play well their strengths and can still contribute to society. I know a few reformed SLEs who got jobs in construction after they served their prison sentences haha.
    I hired an SLE after he served ten years in Jackson prison for armed robbery. A totally likable, trustworthy guy, completely connected to the world around him and not at all to the future. Hard to beat an SLE for knowing where things are and taking direct action, and this guy is built like a tank. Nothing to do in Jackson but lift weights. I've seen people cross the street rather than walk past him. I think he just got in with the wrong guys and didn't see where he was going.

    I kind of "get" him, with respect to his need to be liked and refusal to ask for it. He and I both have 1D Fi, 2D Fe.

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    You're just giving Bert even more ammunition to think you are a Fe valuer but yeah. Sounds about right.

    Nothing to do in Jackson but lift weights
    Ain't that the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starrangel View Post
    You're just giving Bert even more ammunition to think you are a Fe valuer but yeah. Sounds about right.
    LIE is SLE's Benefactor.

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    aka He Died With a Felafel Delilah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I found that ILI probably looks more dishonest than they really are, I bet they could explain themselves and even if they came right out and said "i'm being dishonest" there's probably some deeper rationale as to why. most the time deep down they're trying to do the right thing, its just the world is shit and they get put into weird positions and are often made to look bad, so they de emphasize those considerations (Fe) which is both their strength and their weakness. Hamlet could potentially host a witch burning at their expense but at the same time ILI is likely holding more cards than it seems. in any case, if they're really ILI I bet they have a sympathetic tale worth trying to understand before writing them off. often times rushing to judgement plays right into the hands of simplistic narrative peddlers like EIE, when the real situation is often more complex, especially when relating to work drama. for example, I'd be willing to trust ILI to make an accurate evaluation of the complex factors at work than have someone like EIE tell me what to think about ILI's actions. often times the ILI is going to have a greater understanding that precisely because people are stupid that makes ILI prone to being misunderstood and scapegoated, because people would rather deal with a pleasant myth than the real situation in all its complexity, but it turns out the ILI could be dealing in better faith than anyone on that front
    Bertrand, I actually just now had this strong impression that this person might be LSE instead. So this is not so much relevant to Fe polr anymore, but i do wonder why they did this. I also find this person really difficult in some way, like they feel to me like they are being competitive for no good reason - it is almost as if in their search for outside sources to measure themselves against they have picked me to compare with. It makes things strained. But yeah, off Fe polr topic at this point
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    I know that ultimate ethical solution for humanity is extinction when you think about the future: billions of deaths and evil deeds will be avoided that way.



    Let us all swallow a red pill containing cyanide.
    You can suggest an alternative type based on video found in HERE

    extrospection > introspection



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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    This is what I have learned:

    The PoLR is the point of (un)balance. A tipping point.

    The person is sensitive towards the information but doesn' really know what to do with it.

    The stumbling happens not just because it's weak, but because the person is somehow ambivalent towards the information.

    Usually the person tries to either ignore the PoLR or he tries to integrate it into the information flow.

    Fi and Fe PoLR can create a subjective feedback. ILEs adjust their ideas and thinking under influence of Fi, for example morality. But it depends on the person what it actually is.

    SLE can have an emphasized ethics of actions.

    Fe PoLR in ILI seems to have something to do with their critical attitude.

    Anyway, the information is not irrelevant. It's like a ghost lurking behind the scenes.

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    aka He Died With a Felafel Delilah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Fe PoLR in ILI seems to have something to do with their critical attitude.
    I agree with the rest of your post and was wondering if you have something more to add to what I've quoted (?)
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    Ti is words, words aren't intuitions so much as rational formulation. what the words mean and are intended to represent can be concrete or abstract perceptions. the problem is all rational functions use words, so confusion arises because people unknowingly equivocate between eachother, which is a product of projection.
    Alright so I think you are saying: this<>this. A system of relations between *anything* really. And the only way to do that is using words, written, spoken, cognized. You can't have perception without using words to describe it. Well, you CAN, this is a state most often discussed in buddhism ---> the Emptiness of form. In other-words, a tree is not a tree, it is simply an object expressing energy in a form without any mind made words to describe it. I am in agreement about the rational functions, yes. I mean, clearly Si is an irrational function with perception "as is" without application of a word first.

    I can't really express how I experience Fi in relation to Ti without making Ti sound autistic. Fe bridges the gap of ethics to Ti, it knows how to "reach" Ti in some kind of way but what Fe and Ti valuing both fundamentally share is an ontological commitment to Ti as the "ground" on which reality is logically structured. Its this common understanding that by definition excludes affect as an introverted rational consideration, rather relegating it to a kind of black box.
    Oh you are in another galaxy regarding your understanding awareness of this stuff, arn't you? No wonder you feel like a God among mortals. Better to take that as a compliment over an insult.

    when these types proclaim people irrational its more a statement on their own irrational perception than a statement about the actual rationality of the person in question.
    If they are healthy and have some perspective, they can overcome this challenge. Not everyone believes their own conception of reality at all points in time. If everyone did, there would literally be no freedom whatsoever. You get *solid* moments where your psyche is very tight and bound, and you get very *loose* moments. I think you could claim positive intertypes allow for loser moments and negative types, you come across hardening. Let's assume we are talking about people who are their sociotype with limited awareness.

    Sorry, I don't know how else to describe that process. Also, I've come full circle with socionics and its not my only system to understand psychology and information dynamics. I mean, its pretty good because there are soooo many nuances and ways to explore with it.

    in other words, the irrationality is their picture of the other person, whereas the rationality is missed like two ships in the night. obviously mutual understanding is possible but its hard not to privilege one in the description, I think its fair to say socionics tries to contextualize Fi within a Ti system and does a very good job of it, but there is irreducible difficulty in conveying the what its like across type.
    I'm reading this as their rational Ti element is behaving in a conventionally irrational way? It's super hard to discuss this with out specific real world examples and I think its possible this is becoming a little bit to conceptual, so I'm just going to assume you have done the leg work and have pulled this from your own real life observations and tbh right now I'm ok with that. Good job As far as socionics goes being Ti, I mean yeah sure boring yawn that topic has been done before.

    it is nothing less than the problem of intersubjectivity itself. in any case the strength of lyric is to convey to SLE certain aspects of reality in language they can understand, while maintaining its "relevance" so as not to be "excluded" by SLE as a threat; rather it is seen as a help.
    Mmmhmm. Yup.

    it manages to bring to SLE's attention ethical concern that would be incomprehensible in Fi terms, but since its in a Fe package it manages to get through because it presents itself "objectively" which is how SLE likes their ethics. they might prefer to call this "relevant to their interests" and therefore "real", but it goes back to how its formulated which is from a shared Ti worldview.
    Nice summary of the past few times we talked about this yesterday.

    Fi from the point of view of Ti is inscrutable because its like they say things that make no "logical" (Ti) sense.
    I think you used little quotes there because in real life terms, it's not really logic as the word is used conventionally. It just sort feels like *oh this is the way things work around here, this is the system we are all agreeing to participate within* Nothing about it feels like a logic, which is where soooo many people make a real misconception when they think about Ti people. They are picturing people who are LITERALLY logical, like savants, or nerds. I mean sure those could happen, but its not what Ti does, or is. So bravo for trying to assemble the explanation. And for SLE, Se is always so much more apparent.

    Like when I said today in class "work breaks are within the scope of employment" the Ti types got kind of irritated with me, because to them by definition a "break" is defined in distinction to "employment" as being a "break from work" i.e.: not within the scope.
    Those guys just sound dumb. lol. Middle class yuppies or something, doesn't even sound like they have worked in their life ever, so how would they think a break is not a part of it? lol. You have to be around people like that all the time? lol out of touch.

    But if you realize the question at issue is Fi ethical question as to whether or not (Te) plaintiffs can recover from businesses on a respondeat superior theory from an employee who injured them while on a break, you realize the "scope of employment" doesn't mean work/not work but "should we hold this entity responsible for creating the conditions that lead to the injury" and in that sense breaks should be considered a part of employment, inasmuch as employers include breaks in the furtherance of their business venture, which they do (because within work the concept of bathroom and food breaks are necessarily nested, because people work precisely to eat [the break in question was a 15 minute meal break], hence it unconscionable disavow accidents on a break as somehow being categorically separate from scope of employment when the whole reason the person was in that situation was that they were employed).
    Wow, I could actual following this. Is is a matter of white ethics? I don't think so. hmmm, I'd have to think about this some more. I think a SLE is seeing it less of a matter of: Well EVERYDAY (as if they care when breaks happen lol) we are required to take a break AT 9:30 am and 2:30 am and while you are on your break you are responsible for your safety. I do not however think a SLE would be peevish about being forced legally to pay out compensation for an injury..actually I think all logical types would be annoyed with it, as they are all slightly whiny about these things. I don't think a LSE would be any less confrontationally annoyed as any other type if they were in the same situation, no matter how a Fi type could break down the moral obligations for them. I think a LSE would follow through out of a sense of duty to being ethical, whereas a SLE would just grumble about it. At the end of the day, does it matter what one felt about doing it, if they had to do it anyway?

    It seems Fi types demand A LOT out of their duals, because not only do they ask them to take the most ethical course of actions, they also demand they feel good about doing so, just because it's right and here are the reasons why! Hahah, its kind of hilarious if you look at it from that stand point.

    A Ni type is going to be preforming the same thing, yet will be far more objective when they break down the reasoning, coming at it from all angles instead of just the most suitibly "right" one. For instance, explaining how and why, explaining what will turn out, explaining how to survive with least amount of damage, working towards homeostasis of the internal situation, using it as a leveraging point to further prove loyalty, as in claiming "see, I don't suck as much as those guys". Its tough though for sure, because Fi polr always seemed to ask "well why should I?"

    random thought during this--->Te might come at it in delta as being tied in with Si somehow. As in, having breaks is a necessary requirement of staying productive.

    Anyway, this is the sort of divide between Ti and Fi which is far more subtle than I think people realize. SLE would just cut it off with, employment is when you're literally fulfilling only those duties explicitly enumerated in your job description (they're not really interested in construing the language with a Fi slant--in other words its a battle over what the words represent and what we should do with them).
    I think as a thought experiment, a SLE doing this is just wrong. I disagree, I do not think a SLE would do this as you laid out. Reading further.

    To me this is slightly autistic because of how much it ignores, but it proceeds straightforwardly on the basis of those relatively simple and few logical premises in order to reach their conclusion.
    It can be, yes. I don't think people give beta NFs enough credit for what they put up with. Its probably hard plumbing the deepest human truths and coming back out to a people who are so straight forward at times. Where do you think a lot of the dynamic here comes from though? Like why do socionics descriptions describe IEI and EIE as being so complex and conflicted? Clues and answers lay in this direction.

    SLE needs someone like IEI who understands this and thinks in this way to convey via Fe any missing information, which from my point of view takes the form of wailing and so forth. There is a myth that Fi language is necessarily flowery. This is actually Fe, and also why IEI not EII is lyric. Fi language is more language that may or may not be flowery but is more ethically charged in the sense of say literature v science. it is a vector for introverted rationality, which is structural and comprehensive in its scope,which is what a great novel usually is with its far ranging and complex interactions between characters, but usually with some kind of "spine" or "skeleton" of Fi underlying it all, which is what its "message" tends to be. you can think of JK Rowlings archetypal themes in Harry Potter as being a form of Fi Ne, fleshed out not as a poeticism per se but as a rational work of a far ranging yet centrally integrated scope. a moral rather than scientific treatise if you will. a logical version of the same thing would be like Aristotle's "nichomachean ethics" (if you look closely he actually seems to be exhibiting a form of fi suggestive in his "look to good people to begin one's analysis")
    Yes because it (Fi) is talking about field ethics, which is an ACTUAL thing, albeit not visible. So, I'm there with you on this one.

    ---> Fi can be twisted though, which is the reason you get very singular minded, imo stupid Fi, lets not assume objectivity - which is a character trait an Fi type may lack.

    Virtue ethics is generally awesome for this reason, because it admits the interplay between people who first embody ethics and then only later are they understood as such and codified by others, and subsequently promulgated to society in the form of articulated rules, which is precisely how the clock of the socion also understands things, but I digress..
    Isn't University fun?
    Last edited by waddup; 01-12-2018 at 08:34 PM.

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    I really hate Fe cause it feels like just a ton of substance-less fluff, like seriously did you have something to say in there or am I just missing the point entirely. I want you to come right out and say whatever it is you mean because it feels like a bunch of oblique commentary no one asked for, perhaps pointing at something but I can't tell what

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    I agree with the rest of your post and was wondering if you have something more to add to what I've quoted (?)
    Maybe a psychologizing attitude? Verbalizing what's "behind" Fe?. Perceived by others as critical.

    Or something like Aki Kaurismäki's movies. Aren't you familiar with them? There is a sort of "negative Fe" in them.

    laconic expressions and irony?

    Or maybe even a tendency to find that spiritual expression that will hit everybody?

    But my data on ILI is not very good Don't know that many...

    What do you think?

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    aka He Died With a Felafel Delilah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Maybe a psychologizing attitude? Verbalizing what's "behind" Fe?. Perceived by others as critical.

    Or something like Aki Kaurismäki's movies. Aren't you familiar with them? There is a sort of "negative Fe" in them.

    laconic expressions and irony?

    Or maybe even a tendency to find that spiritual expression that will hit everybody?

    But my data on ILI is not very good Don't know that many...

    What do you think?
    Yes, i'm very familiar with his movies and used to like them way back (less so nowadays). I mentioned at some point that Fe is somehow tied to criteria for things/behaviours etc. So i'm trying to wrap my head around how that translates to Fe polr (dissing something well-established maybe? missing the point? i dunno). I've also noticed Fe Polr disturbs my Fe, which i don't have mass amounts of and it does feel irksome on occasion. Ej - Te don't do this so i prefer their interaction depending on the person. Thanks for your input
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Yes, i'm very familiar with his movies and used to like them way back (less so nowadays). I mentioned at some point that Fe is somehow tied to criteria for things/behaviours etc. So i'm trying to wrap my head around how that translates to Fe polr (dissing something well-established maybe? missing the point? i dunno). Thanks for your input
    It can be integrated though. There are ILI poets for example. Fe PoLR can be indirect persuasion. I suspect that the ILI can have a deeper interest in the spiritual than the IEI for this reason.
    Last edited by Tallmo; 01-12-2018 at 10:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I really hate Fe cause it feels like just a ton of substance-less fluff, like seriously did you have something to say in there or am I just missing the point entirely. I want you to come right out and say whatever it is you mean because it feels like a bunch of oblique commentary no one asked for, perhaps pointing at something but I can't tell what
    wow, awkward. I'm not sure I could have said anything differently...

    nervous icky feeling in my chest now. And you accuse SLE/ILE as coming across as autistic. I would think you would feel complimented I was even discussing your explanation instead of being a TOTAL DINK ABOUT IT :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I really hate Fe cause it feels like just a ton of substance-less fluff, like seriously did you have something to say in there or am I just missing the point entirely. I want you to come right out and say whatever it is you mean because it feels like a bunch of oblique commentary no one asked for, perhaps pointing at something but I can't tell what
    So, are you typing as Fe now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by waddup View Post
    I would think you would feel complimented I was even discussing your explanation
    lol are you for real? I find engaging you tedious because its like I have to sort out a bunch of crap I wouldn't have to if you didn't misunderstand it all to begin with and its not fun so much as worrisome business because it indicates what wrong ideas people have about things. if you're talking just to generate discussion for its own sake please spare me the trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    So, are you typing as Fe now?
    so you admit waddup's posting is all white noise and the idea is mines just as bad? or am I missing something

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    lol are you for real? I find engaging you tedious because its like I have to sort out a bunch of crap I wouldn't have to if you didn't misunderstand it all to begin with and its not fun so much as worrisome business because it indicates what wrong ideas people have about things. if you're talking just to generate discussion for its own sake please spare me the trouble
    Suck my dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    so you admit waddup's posting is all white noise and the idea is mines just as bad? or am I missing something
    It was a joke saying that what you wrote about "Fe" applies to your own posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    It was a joke saying that what you wrote about "Fe" applies to your own posts.
    can you get specific, I'm not sure I understand. also i'm really curious and this isn't just some attempt to engage what I think is otherwise meritless commentary simply because I feel like you desire attention, although that's an interesting intepretation waddup presents of what perhaps Ti types are looking for and how Fe perceives them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    can you get specific, I'm not sure I understand
    This in particular is something your posts are almost famous for:
    I want you to come right out and say whatever it is you mean because it feels like a bunch of oblique commentary no one asked for
    You tend to spin long narratives to explain how various types fit your views of them. What you do is precisely what you accused EIE of doing. And this is something you're very well-known for:
    often times rushing to judgement plays right into the hands of simplistic narrative peddlers like EIE, when the real situation is often more complex
    You are the one who creates simplistic narratives to justify your own prejudices and judgments. It's like you need to have sides, a good and an evil, and must pit things in those terms constantly regardless of the real story.
    Last edited by squark; 01-12-2018 at 11:14 PM. Reason: typo

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    oh you find my narratives simplistic, is that what you're saying? do you have an example of a simplistic narrative of mine you think could be better fleshed out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    oh you find my narratives simplistic, is that what you're saying? do you have an example of a simplistic narrative of mine you think could be better fleshed out?
    Post #23, about 90% of it needs to be cut out completely, and then the remaining that has something to it could be further developed. Right now it reads as "Ti polrs are slaves to their feelings because they don't realize them" with just way too many words that add nothing to it.

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    squark that was a noisy button to push
    honest labor needs no master

    Nothing good is a miracle, nothing lovely is a dream.

    Επί πάντων μέμνησο τα έσχατά σου, και ου μη αμαρτήσης

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    Hmm if it was truly fluffy or without substance why on earth would you react to it so much. Almost every other post from you is you whining about Fe or Betas.

    I feel like you are incredibly fluffy yourself when you make some good points but then go on this totally irrational and hateful tangent about Fe. It makes you sound way less credible when I get the feeling by the way you speak, you want to be taken seriously or something.

    Fe valuers aren't responsible for your own shitty behavior towards others. Take some personal responsibility. As a Gamma you should be more of an adult. I'm sure instead of changing for the better you will go 'lol a Fe valuer teaching ME of all people about right and wrong!' You're ridiculous lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Post #23, about 90% of it needs to be cut out completely, and then the remaining that has something to it could be further developed. Right now it reads as "Ti polrs are slaves to their feelings because they don't realize them" with just way too many words that add nothing to it.
    oh I see you misunderstood me on a profound level, and that is the basis for your drawing your equivalencies. well in that case I'm happy the strawman version of my posts falls into the "noise" bin, it would be a lot more concerning if you found the actual meaningful substance as somehow worthless

    Quote Originally Posted by starrangel View Post
    Hmm if it was truly fluffy or without substance why on earth would you react to it so much.

    this is precisely my point, they had me fooled! anyway your point is well taken and I'll try not to repeat the mistake

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    Sigh.

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    I hate having to return to this topic, but there was one last part of this that I had not personally discussed, others had.

    And that is that although Fi polr does affect people around that person, the real challenge, tragedy, and also freedom, is that this person doesn't always know how THEY feel about things, situations, people, what they can and cannot say, and what they cannot and cannot do. So in a sense they have this incredible amount of freedom to be very natural, very fearless with how they are. They don't worry about things like the rest of us, because, like creepy bertand says, they are not aware of the problem. They haven't even begun to comprehend it. This is where a lot of the fearlessness stems. They can meet people without those Fi hangups. They can relate about things is a very confident, and innocent way. This is the positive side to Fi polr ---> very fearless people.

    So yeah with SLE, they do often, I have seen, come out as being very popular, yet also very alone, because they don't realize what things they do that drive people closer or away from them. And it can look really sad from the outside. Which is a part of what Fe can do for them, because Fe is a kind of (in sooooo , so many shapes and forms and expressions), cross that valley and show that "hey, I'm here with you." That doesn't always look like those direct words either, it could look like, for lack of a better word *drama*. Fi does something similar, except with Fi it goes into why some should want to feel one way or another and the reasons for that, and straight towards connection via this kind of understanding---> almost to immediate for Fi polr.

    Looking at this from another angle, a SLE is going to be doing Te for their dual, but they are not going to be teaching them, instructing them, making it top priority. So it will look like a IEI requesting help and and SLE just doing without a whole lot of fuss or fanfare. The same goes for Fi polr, its done without a whole lot of fuss or fanfare. I know one SLE who wanted to build a home, he owned his own property, and when questioned on wether, or not, he went to the bank to start that process, he just kind of shrugged his shoulders, "nope". Because figuring out logics of actions to create order for them is just not all that important, but they don't suck at. Does that make sense? Flash forward 4 years later and he somehow managed to just get it all worked out and is now living in a beautiful, custom crafted house.

    So, although they can be super popular and everyone turns towards them for help, they really struggle to maintain those close, intimate connections, because they are so challenging as people, often so strong and dominating, even if they are not aware of it. And to them, they feel like they are being very loving, which they are, clearly, its just they are not always aware of those boundaries and what they can and cannot come to expect from other people.

    So if they are brought up in a good home, shown love, kind of learned the things EVERYBODY learns, then for sure they are good people. Why wouldn't they be? It's just they don't always know what they want in terms of relationships, and what that looks like and how it can be maintained happily. And you can't tell them either. If you could tell a SLE that, then they wouldn't be SLE, they are independent thinkers. I think a lot of people are getting confused here and thinking that fi polr means they are not happy and they are just stepping on the whole worlds toes, because there is this misconception that they are kind of heartless, criminal, jock, Trump douche bags, which is so totally a wrong conception here.

    Silke posted a little video about a man who works with lions. Look at that guy for your idea of what Se SLE kind of people look. These are people that are working with energies, they are really seeing people and animals for what they truly are. And btw, people LOVE THEM FOR IT.

    Yeah they may get hung up in their heads, just like every other human being, and yes they become confused as well and unfortunately because they lack inner awareness, inner resources, they can have a hard time and go through immense inner turmoil and possibly low grade depressions later on in life. And that may look like lashing out, if they learned destructive life habits growing up. It could look like for the first time seeing the shadow sides of life, that they may have not been aware of before then. And it can drive a lot of loneliness in them. They are looked at as being heroes for everybody, but they are suffering themselves because they don't know how to ask for help, or even how to go at that problem.

    An LSE is going to be almost crying out for help if they are like that and a EII steps in to help them work through it. A SLE, just by their very nature, and despite their sociability, have a lot more difficulty trying to figure that emotional, relationship problems and would, in truth, just like to be happy. So they push, automatically, a lot of uncomfortable things away. But don't get the wrong idea here, SLE are not "mean" people ... AT ALL. If Trump is an SLE, he is an exception.

    So, let's try to pull it together, have a try to have a little smidgen of compassion. Instead of sociopathy mind games. On that note, IEI can play mind games to and if they are unhealthy people, they can really fuck up other, including their dual, so again lets not assume that intertypes=good. Unbalanced---> of any type suck.
    Last edited by waddup; 01-13-2018 at 08:49 PM.

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    I think I equated them to gifts on the Fi/Fe HA thread. Fe PoLR would wrap an ugly gift with a beautiful trinket inside. Fi PoLR would wrap a beautiful gift with nothing inside. The sincerity of their behavior reveals itself over time. That's when you realize that Fe PoLR doesn't naturally behave that way, so the fact they that behaved that way around you increases its sincerity. The reverse is true for Fi PoLR where you realize that they treat everybody that way, which decreases its sincerity, as in it was never tailored to you specifically. But it's not all bad with Fi PoLR. If you flip the initial problem on its head, then you find that they'll treat even "morally corrupt" individuals that way, some of whom have been unfairly scapegoated. Fe-Ti valuers would appreciate Fe PoLR's attempt, even if it's lacking in some areas, by Fi standards, because they compensate for it in other areas, by Fe standards, whereas Fi-Te valuers would appreciate Fi PoLR's attempt, even if it's lacking in some areas, by Fe standards, because they compensate for it in other areas, by Fi standards.
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    ^Good suggestions above.

    I had another idea. To me, the difference between extro and intro seals the deal:

    PoLR can look rather - not extremely - connected to others when they are in the spotlight. While behind the scenes, they are actually abandoned. ILE and SLE are a pariah once they go to sleep.
    PoLR can seem completely isolated when "out there" but still have covert yet rather - not extremely - solid connections backstage where nobody sees. ILI and SLI are a pariah when they exit their house and enter the public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    ^Good suggestions above.

    I had another idea. To me, the difference between extro and intro seals the deal:

    PoLR can look rather - not extremely - connected to others when they are in the spotlight. While behind the scenes, they are actually abandoned. ILE and SLE are a pariah once they go to sleep.
    PoLR can seem completely isolated when "out there" but still have covert yet rather - not extremely - solid connections backstage where nobody sees. ILI and SLI are a pariah when they exit their house and enter the public.
    Neat way to look at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    ^Good suggestions above.

    I had another idea. To me, the difference between extro and intro seals the deal:

    PoLR can look rather - not extremely - connected to others when they are in the spotlight. While behind the scenes, they are actually abandoned. ILE and SLE are a pariah once they go to sleep.
    PoLR can seem completely isolated when "out there" but still have covert yet rather - not extremely - solid connections backstage where nobody sees. ILI and SLI are a pariah when they exit their house and enter the public.
    When I was in high school, I knew an SLE that people whispered behind the back of all the time. Basically he liked telling jokes, he liked being liked, so he tried emulating the idea of the charismatic class clown. In practice, he looked like a general tool in front of his teachers and presented an attitude of smug machismo that was probably some sort of effort to create camaraderie with the other guys. It didn't go over particularly well.

    I talked to him once one-on-one, and he mentioned that he had just moved to this town a year ago and was feeling really homesick. I asked why, and he said he had a best friend back where he used to live that "understood him". He said that for whatever reason, however much he's trying, he can't seem to make friends here. But, you know, after high school he could go move back where he used to live. And then everything would be good!
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    People in general are highly unsatisfactory objects for further investigation. Usually they are too similar and predictable. Nothing new to figure about their thinking mechanisms which is usually my primary motivator. (That feeling stuff is just not objective, is circumstantial etc.) Unless it spurs out new avenues for further research.

    To think about I might have given impressions of having much wider social circles several times that is actually true. Yes, that hardly motivates me. See above.
    You can suggest an alternative type based on video found in HERE

    extrospection > introspection



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