A Simple Definition of Ni That Works

[Bertrand]

Another thing - some people would say there are actually two kinds of Ni. I've found personally that this is something you need to consider if you're trying to define the IM elements precisely.

there's always at least two definitions because you can simply ascribe associations to functions in how they manifest: which would be all the heretofore behavioral associations with hang out there open ended like a bunch of loose leaf papers, and then there's the systemic definitions which are intertwined in a coherent structural manner. the former aren't necessarily inaccurate in the sense of them having zero basis, but they are also not the context from which Ni is best understood as a function of socionics

if people want to just admit that, they can go about enumerating all their private impressions of Ni ad infinitum without any objection on the latter grounds, the problem is when they make pseudo structural definitions that confuse the issue

[Tigerfadder]

I can think of two layers. First layer is always unconcious, the second layer can either be concious or unconcious.
Perceiving no information from your subconcious meens you are in a double unconcious state.

Fundamentally he says that which can not be seen but perceived is NItuition I think...

[Exodus]

there's always at least two definitions because you can simply ascribe associations to functions in how they manifest: which would be all the heretofore behavioral associations with hang out there open ended like a bunch of loose leaf papers, and then there's the systemic definitions which are intertwined in a coherent structural manner. the former aren't necessarily inaccurate in the sense of them having zero basis, but they are also not the context from which Ni is best understood as a function of socionics

if people want to just admit that, they can go about enumerating all their private impressions of Ni ad infinitum without any objection on the latter grounds, the problem is when they make pseudo structural definitions that confuse the issue

That wasn't really my point. I was talking about signed elements.

My research indicates that there are definitions that are adequate both empirically and structurally.

[WinnieW]

Fundamentally he says that which can not be seen but perceived is NItuition I think...

I expressed my own view on , my statement was not an interpretation of the previous post from thehotelambush.

[Bertrand]

That wasn't really my point. I was talking about signed elements.

My research indicates that there are definitions that are adequate both empirically and structurally.

that's interesting but I don't think +/- Ni would bear on the time issue at all in terms of the dispute in this thread; if anything, the +/- articulation relies on time to distinguish the two, if anything making time more of a central feature to meaning

[Computer Loser]

Intuition is basically your brain making a zillion little calculations in an instant and spitting you out a summarized “feeling”. So your gut tells you “don’t do it” but deep in your subconscious your brain has analyzed a fuckton of stuff at once. It's a combination of your Reticular Activation System picking up stuff relevant to you (ie – a girl avoiding creepy guys, poker player’s tells, etc), and your brain making a ton of little calculations and comparisons to previous reference experiences at a phenomenal rate so fast that you wouldn’t be able to break it all down calculation by calculation fast enough to do anything productive with it, so your brain just summarizes it in the form of a feeling.

In general it's something that people develop with experience. A new driver will crash his car because he’ll panic trying to consciously make a decision. A guy who’s a pro driver will instinctively escape the situation while still singing to the radio because he’s on autopilot calculating everything that he’s experienced hundreds of times before.

Everyone uses Ni to an extent, but the intensity varies depending on type

[WinnieW]

The human brain as organic supercomputer is a quite perspective.
That fits my view to the brain as alternative reality simulation system. It simulates the consequenses of your actions, but is only able to do that with a proper amount of pre-collected information.

[The Reality Denialist]

Out of nowhere some sort disparate objects (abstract or concrete)or possible episodes starts float in mind triggered by something and then it comes time to glue them. That's the game with unconscious and how far you can go with it ( ).
are kind of passive itself from observer's perspective.

Intensity differs, I think.

[Exodus]

that's interesting but I don't think +/- Ni would bear on the time issue at all in terms of the dispute in this thread;

My comment was only addressed to @Aramas, it has nothing to do with your argument.

It bears on the issue because if anything, the +/- articulation relies on time to distinguish the two, if anything making time more of a central feature to meaning

...and I'm not using Gulenko's definitions (past vs. future Ni) if that's what you're implying.

[Aramas]

Another thing - some people would say there are actually two kinds of Ni. I've found personally that this is something you need to consider if you're trying to define the IM elements precisely.

There are indeed two kinds of Ni. Do you mean +/- or something else? I have an idea in mind for something else that I've been thinking about, but I'm not sure I'm ready to put it on the forum yet. Do you think only Ni has two kinds, or do other functions also have two kinds as well?

[Bertrand]

yeah hotelambush tell us more about +/- functions and how it relates to the topic at hand

[Exodus]

There are indeed two kinds of Ni. Do you mean +/- or something else? I have an idea in mind for something else that I've been thinking about, but I'm not sure I'm ready to put it on the forum yet. Do you think only Ni has two kinds, or do other functions also have two kinds as well?

+/-, so it applies to all of the elements.

[Exodus]

yeah hotelambush tell us more about +/- functions and how it relates to the topic at hand

@Aramas's definition is similar to +Ni as I understand it.

[Bertrand]

can you explain? I don't see it. what makes +Ni +? and what makes Aramas' definition Ni at all?

[Aramas]

@Aramas's definition is similar to +Ni as I understand it.

How do you understand +Ni and -Ni? I would be interested in hearing your definition. Maybe you've linked it before, but another reference might help. I've had a lot of work to do recently, so the threat hasn't been on my mind.

[Exodus]

How do you understand +Ni and -Ni? I would be interested in hearing your definition. Maybe you've linked it before, but another reference might help. I've had a lot of work to do recently, so the threat hasn't been on my mind.

I described a tentative definition here but do be aware that my views have changed since writing this.

[Bertrand]

this whole idea of +/- turns on time. when you "eliminate a possibility" you're just saying it has no future, when you expand one you expend time on giving it life--i.e.: "entertaining" it. without a time component it would all be meaningless and not even cognizable

[Ninja]

I think Ni strives for depth in patterns and unification/distillation of them, the orientation of one's attention to those patterns dependent on the rest of the functional stack.
I think in some situations there is an [adequate] fundamental depth that can be reached with Ni and when reached may give some predictive power. I think Ni has a timeless quality to it, in that it aims to perceive patterns which are as close to capturing the whole (...reason for a person's behavior, human relationships, systems, wherever the person's interests lie) as possible. The patterns perceived may be of sufficient depth that they withstand time. Having predictive power falls out of this, I think.
Perhaps this is then where the notion of Ni being conscious of the unconscious comes into play. When Ni reaches far enough down that it can find awareness and understanding of the interactions at play within a circumstance, where the environment may not be operating itself. And so it can appear as if Ni is able to reach into the unconscious, though perhaps just reaching things which are unconscious to some others.
I don't think this makes very much sense and is so vague. I don't know what I'm talking about, but curious.

[Computer Loser]

Doesn't everyone get gut feelings on a regular basis? Is that really Ni?

I always figured most people get this.

It depends on the gut feeling. If this is a gut feeling that there are better options and more chance for discovery - then I would assume Ne. If the gut feeling relates to some previously established conditions but is modulated into an expectation that's what I'd call Ni.

And yeah everyone uses Ni/Ne, but differently and to varying intensities, depending on type. That's why an LSE would look at an IEI like a loser that gets nothing done.

BTW, I thought you were IEI, lol what happened

[hatchback176]

isn't "following your gut" like an ego that thinks in terms of body momentum

isn't "following your heart" like an ego that thinks in terms of cardiac rhythms

isn't "being on time" as if clocks and calendars for scheduling have existed for all of human history

isn't "skipping details and specifics" as if egos can explain hypothesis generation, metaphorical allegory, lateral thinking, or inventive brainstorming with any kind of detail or specificity

The best scientific picture of the brain we have is neurotransmitter burst dynamics triggered by ion-gated voltage channels representing neurons connected through electro-magnetic resonance circuits. It doesn't matter that every thought a person has is theoretically describable as some configuration of the best scientific picture if we don't have communicative expressions for it


Knowing our internal goals/rules/strategies/representations is precisely the information leads have the most conscious awareness of because we aren't being reflexively spontaneous or randomly distracted. Yet this is also the knowledge most likely to be lost on others because humans don't have a vocabulary for expressing covert and silent brain activity.

[Sol]

And yeah everyone uses Ni/Ne, but differently and to varying intensities, depending on type. That's why an LSE would look at an IEI like a loser that gets nothing done.

LSE would perceive IEI such because he looked at own ego (Te,Si) functions of the opponent.

[The Reality Denialist]

One way to detect a sensor? When gut feeling comes up as intuition.
I think it might register as that.

Jung used word hunch. Personally when the "hunch" is everywhere it takes over. I think I work backwards when I compare myself to other people.

I tend to form a theory before I do something. Many times it seems that I missed too much.

Surrounding world start looks like hypothetical or symbolic representation. Sensing valuers might gravitate towards concrete tangible symbolic objects. Let's reverse that in case of ego. ego would put their attention towards something raw that shows some sort of essential representation they value.

[lemontrees]

Gut feeling about what?

Looks around for gut feelings

[The Reality Denialist]

I always think gut feelings like this


Well, hunch sounds more brain based. but idk

[Adam Strange]

Quite a simple story. I got tired of being too evil and manipulative for this world by being cursed as a Fe creative; so I meditated on it deeply in the woods one day, transcending through the depths of time and space asking the universe to transform my mental processing, and just like that, I now I make investments in the stock market and have an outstanding credit score.

Totally makes sense.

[Aylen]

Quite a simple story. I got tired of being too evil and manipulative for this world by being cursed as a Fe creative; so I meditated on it deeply in the woods one day, transcending through the depths of time and space asking the universe to transform my mental processing, and just like that, I now I make investments in the stock market and have an outstanding credit score.

Wow amazing coincidence... The same thing happened to me except I was meditating in a dark cave. In the depths of despair, over being evil, I asked to see the light. This is when it happened. A park ranger was shining a flashlight in my eyes (whoah!) asking me, "What do you think you are doing in this cave after hours?" I apologized and said I must have lost track of time. Then I was instantly transformed. I rushed out of that cave and bought 5 bitcoin. It has almost doubled in value since. I sold half which I reinvested elsewhere while I let the rest ride.

We truly live in a benevolent YOUniverse that grants our every wish, if the intention is pure. The illusion of fate crumbles when we transcend time and go straight to the source.

[Alomoes]

Actually, this gets a pass, but I don't like how it is worded. Actually, I REALLY need to be careful, because I really don't know. Hold up.

Huh, yeah, that is genius. Congratulations, you did it.

In about a year or so, I'm going to say something negative about this, probably. I can't focus in on it very well.

[Desert Financial]

[Attis]

Doesn't everyone get gut feelings on a regular basis? Is that really Ni?

I always figured most people get this.

I do not experience gut feelings. This made me doubt that I was ILI.

[hatchback176]

I do not experience gut feelings. This made me doubt that I was ILI.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system Anymore lies you want to completely make up?

[Alomoes]

Uh. Hey, I don't know. He might perceive that as not a gut feeling. Or he might be a mutant. Or he might know exactly where it comes from, and thus think it is logic. Or it might be that he's (I mean I assume he), just doesn't do the Fi needed to see it. Or he's an idiot. I don't know which. Pretty cool. Uh, so I don't know about that being the source of our intuition experiences, either. Hey, I don't know biology.

Probably. Hey, feels bad man, not knowing.

[hatchback176]

Ni: Seeing through everything to the point where you can't see anything. Viewing everything with a relentless neutrality, you keep yourself at such psychological distance from things that you can no longer act as a participant. At some point, you're no longer real, you're just a commentary on someone else's gloss on someone else's commentary. Living so much in a world of "phoned-in" representations from other people, all you can do is criticize any real-world trade-off for being "biased" or "unfair" or less than omniscient. Where once you contributed insight, now your contribution is mostly to throw sand into the gears whenever anything simple, straightforward, or feasible is about to happen.

So Alomoes admits to being manipulative and uses in the most useless way possible.

[Alomoes]

Yes. Uh I think? Yes? U mad?

Hey, the way this is going, I think you're an ESTj. No offense, but I'm their supervisor, and if I was losing, I'd feel bad, retreat and such. I really don't. No offense. Like I mean, you aren't going to go all full metal jacket on me right?

[Desert Financial]

[Alomoes]

Actually, I meant the latter part. It is kind of like a test to see if he knows it. Oh boy, I'm really doing it. Well, shoot. Uh. Sorry.

[Desert Financial]

He probably doesn't.

[Alomoes]

I know. That's supervising relations, folks.

[Skepsis]

[Skepsis]

It really just boils down to an intimate connection to one's subconscious through dreams and contemplation. Nothing special.

[hatchback176]

It really just boils down to an intimate connection to one's subconscious through dreams and contemplation. Nothing special.

Nothing special...so what separates humans from apes neuronally other than an ability to internally represent ourselves self-consciously with introspection, meta-cognition, and abstraction creating the faculty for synchronization and timing outside of hypnosis and entrainment? must be extremely special if it's so closely related to our faculty with language and symbolic representation.