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Thread: LIE - ENTj Description by I/O

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    Default LIE - ENTj Description by I/O

    ENTjs are very well suited for developing and running major systems; many corporate executives are of this type. They're inquisitors who demand immediate closure and who can have an almost zealot-like belief in themselves and what they're doing. They're very perceptive of the potential gains in most undertakings but if these don't pan out, they won't dwell on failures but rather quickly move on to other things. They're quite critical of those who are engaged in non-productive endeavours, yet will partake in whimsical adventures on a moment's notice. They can be quite fearless and bold – but at times, rather impetuous and rash.

    They're quite good with money and at investing their time and resources wisely but they can lose a lot when taking risks. They have natural instincts for future trends and system structure, and usually take advantage of new technologies and methods, but sometimes, can be blindsided by ignored facts and or people. They're very proactive and try to get immediate closure because they often fear missing an opportunity. They're fascinated by unusual phenomena and will go to great lengths to discover their rational basis - usually through others.

    They're optimists by nature with lots of drive and can be very hard to discourage; the more they overcome, the tougher they become. Inside, they can be rather self-righteous and ignore the human cost of their pursuits. Though they love to laugh and entertain people, they can be very threatening to those who stand in their way. One should not be seduced by their pleasantness and humour until absolutely sure of their intentions because they can mislead with phrases that have multiple meanings. They love competition and argument. Most of all, they love to win but if not, their irritability and hot temper can be rather unpleasant even though personal attacks may not be their intentions.

    They can live and work under adverse conditions; they're usually not picky about food, living space, or personal appearance unless these impact on their image or objectives. When courting personal or professional relationships, they can become very suave and seductive but remain slobs at heart. As disorganized as everything around them may appear, they seem to know where everything is. However, they seem attracted to people who can organize their space and relieve them of routine day-to-day matters and chores; they prefer to deal with the big picture. They won't normally hide behind their weaknesses and dislike those who do but they can develop self-destructive habits that become their undoing. It can seem rather paradoxical that people who demand so much perfection from others can be themselves so careless and frivolous by nature.

    They prefer informal settings and become relaxed in well-known territories; disputes with them are best settled in casual, non-threatening atmospheres. They don't mind getting really close to people – sometimes they try to get too close. Their seeming need for personal acceptance and stable, loyal relationships will cause them to often overlook bad behaviour in their friends and the relationships they have with them. However, because they can be rather insensitive and inattentive to others, they can lose the well-intentioned people and retain only the toadies. After realizing that they've ruined relationships, they sometimes overcompensate in trying to make amends which can come across as insincere even though they're truly sorry.

    They can be rather bold and persistent in romantic matters, and seem to enjoy some measure of competition for their conquests. Though they crave personal acceptance and need emotional support to buoy their fighting spirit, they're able to coldly stand up for themselves or their ideas and reject all forms of emotional pressure. They will often choose achievement, principle and image over people and they're adept at directing those who share similar goals and ethos. Oddly, people who are reserved, calm and unemotional can make them feel very awkward and uneasy; they seem to like interacting with and 'feeling' the competition.

    Although they can successfully oversee large organizations and accurately assess their effectiveness, they're oftentimes ineffective at regulating and controlling internal processes. They can be obstinate about their understandings of situations and demand certain solutions when they don't fully understand the problems. As superb as they are in predicting future events, they often overlook the alligators in the swamp. Failure usually bites them in the ass while their nose is pointed in the right direction. However, they're quite aware of the past and will rarely repeat a mistake.

    No win situations are difficult for them; they need to feel confident of success. They will test themselves at various activities (hobbies, relationships, professions, places of work, etc.) until they find their niches where success seems assured. They're often found following unbeaten paths and trying to invent or reinvent themselves or their callings, and they wholly immerse themselves in whatever intrigues them. When their accomplishments or abilities are not appreciated or admired, their vanity may peek through as they try to crush the opposition. However, they are usually very well intentioned, would love it if life were simple, and don't really want to harm anyone.

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    Hey, superb! Very well written. I also like how it's pretty much gender-neutral. Two requests:

    - Can you write more about their vulnerable?
    - To what degree can LIE generate this type of 'ambiguous charm'? "One should not be seduced by their pleasantness and humour until absolutely sure of their intentions because they can mislead with phrases that have multiple meanings."

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    Very run-of-the-mill ENTj description.

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    I think you nailed this.

    I sometimes have trouble making generalizations from past experiences, or seeing what is lacking in a situation. The part about needing to hire people who can regulate and control internal processes in business is exactly right, and is very perceptive. I tend to focus on line officers and ignore the importance of staff officers. Subconsciously recognizing this fault, or lack of competency on my part, might be one reason I married an SLI, the quintessential staff officer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Hey, superb! Very well written. I also like how it's pretty much gender-neutral. Two requests:

    - Can you write more about their vulnerable?
    - To what degree can LIE generate this type of 'ambiguous charm'? "One should not be seduced by their pleasantness and humour until absolutely sure of their intentions because they can mislead with phrases that have multiple meanings."
    Lol, this is true. I want what I want, and I probably won't tell you what that is unless the telling will increase the likelihood of my getting it. Ambiguity and a person's assumptions can be very useful. My approach is to figure out what you want, and offer to trade you something that you want (or preferably, something that you want and didn't even know you want) for something that you might not realize is valuable to me. But I will not lie to you. If you ask directly, I will tell you. Your knowing everything was one of the considered possibilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    ENTjs are very well suited for developing and running major systems; many corporate executives are of this type. They're inquisitors who demand immediate closure and who can have an almost zealot-like belief in themselves and what they're doing. They're very perceptive of the potential gains in most undertakings but if these don't pan out, they won't dwell on failures but rather quickly move on to other things. They're quite critical of those who are engaged in non-productive endeavours, yet will partake in whimsical adventures on a moment's notice. They can be quite fearless and bold – but at times, rather impetuous and rash.

    They're quite good with money and at investing their time and resources wisely but they can lose a lot when taking risks. They have natural instincts for future trends and system structure, and usually take advantage of new technologies and methods, but sometimes, can be blindsided by ignored facts and or people. They're very proactive and try to get immediate closure because they often fear missing an opportunity. They're fascinated by unusual phenomena and will go to great lengths to discover their rational basis - usually through others.

    They're optimists by nature with lots of drive and can be very hard to discourage; the more they overcome, the tougher they become. Inside, they can be rather self-righteous and ignore the human cost of their pursuits. Though they love to laugh and entertain people, they can be very threatening to those who stand in their way. One should not be seduced by their pleasantness and humour until absolutely sure of their intentions because they can mislead with phrases that have multiple meanings. They love competition and argument. Most of all, they love to win but if not, their irritability and hot temper can be rather unpleasant even though personal attacks may not be their intentions.

    They can live and work under adverse conditions; they're usually not picky about food, living space, or personal appearance unless these impact on their image or objectives. When courting personal or professional relationships, they can become very suave and seductive but remain slobs at heart. As disorganized as everything around them may appear, they seem to know where everything is. However, they seem attracted to people who can organize their space and relieve them of routine day-to-day matters and chores; they prefer to deal with the big picture. They won't normally hide behind their weaknesses and dislike those who do but they can develop self-destructive habits that become their undoing. It can seem rather paradoxical that people who demand so much perfection from others can be themselves so careless and frivolous by nature.

    They prefer informal settings and become relaxed in well-known territories; disputes with them are best settled in casual, non-threatening atmospheres. They don't mind getting really close to people – sometimes they try to get too close. Their seeming need for personal acceptance and stable, loyal relationships will cause them to often overlook bad behaviour in their friends and the relationships they have with them. However, because they can be rather insensitive and inattentive to others, they can lose the well-intentioned people and retain only the toadies. After realizing that they've ruined relationships, they sometimes overcompensate in trying to make amends which can come across as insincere even though they're truly sorry.

    They can be rather bold and persistent in romantic matters, and seem to enjoy some measure of competition for their conquests. Though they crave personal acceptance and need emotional support to buoy their fighting spirit, they're able to coldly stand up for themselves or their ideas and reject all forms of emotional pressure. They will often choose achievement, principle and image over people and they're adept at directing those who share similar goals and ethos. Oddly, people who are reserved, calm and unemotional can make them feel very awkward and uneasy; they seem to like interacting with and 'feeling' the competition.

    Although they can successfully oversee large organizations and accurately assess their effectiveness, they're oftentimes ineffective at regulating and controlling internal processes. They can be obstinate about their understandings of situations and demand certain solutions when they don't fully understand the problems. As superb as they are in predicting future events, they often overlook the alligators in the swamp. Failure usually bites them in the ass while their nose is pointed in the right direction. However, they're quite aware of the past and will rarely repeat a mistake.

    No win situations are difficult for them; they need to feel confident of success. They will test themselves at various activities (hobbies, relationships, professions, places of work, etc.) until they find their niches where success seems assured. They're often found following unbeaten paths and trying to invent or reinvent themselves or their callings, and they wholly immerse themselves in whatever intrigues them. When their accomplishments or abilities are not appreciated or admired, their vanity may peek through as they try to crush the opposition. However, they are usually very well intentioned, would love it if life were simple, and don't really want to harm anyone.

    who is I/O?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    who is I/O?

    I/O is Rebelondeck's nom de plume.

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    Hey Rebelondeck, can you throw out some examples of public figure LIEs

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    You're being a bit too nice on us and our weaknesses.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    look, no win situations are difficult for them, ok?

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    @FDG, @lavos The article was probably one of my earlier ones; I pulled it out of archives for @Adam Strange and didn't add much of anything. It may have been aimed at a particular person for a particular purpose; I forget. I could have gone into more detail but ambition fails me. @Bertrand I'm not confident with determining the type of public figures because they playact a lot.
    a.k.a. I/O

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    fair enough, I feel similarly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    @FDG, @lavos The article was probably one of my earlier ones; I pulled it out of archives for @Adam Strange and didn't add much of anything. It may have been aimed at a particular person for a particular purpose; I forget. I could have gone into more detail but ambition fails me. @Bertrand I'm not confident with determining the type of public figures because they playact a lot.
    a.k.a. I/O
    I was mostly thinking about your other uncovered articles where you went into more detail about some types' weaknesses which are harder to see from the outside.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    .......Can you write more about their vulnerable?
    - To what degree can LIE generate this type of 'ambiguous charm'?...........
    They're simply types that aim for the blue sky but don't always watch their feet so they really need partners who'll do it for them. Every type is vulnerable to that to which they don't give priority so you can extrapolate the analogy to most stuff such as personal health and physical threats, which they often don't consider.

    They're very deliberate sorts who set objectives for themselves but don't always show their hand; and they like to best people at everything. I tend to accept what they say but then I find out what they're really after and verify my role in their eyes before committing to anything - even when it's a simple ego trip for them. Perhaps it's because LIIs resent being pawns or toys.....
    a.k.a. I/O

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    Very elucidative, I'm loving these profiles. Now patiently waiting for the SEE one

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    I forgot to mention the LIE career trap. Because many LIE can be rather ineffective at regulating and controlling mid-level, day-to-day business activities, they can find it very difficult rising through the ranks in large production/design/development industries from an entry level unless they're extremely intelligent, or management is incompetent or they have friends in high places - there's also luck. Many get trapped in low-level jobs with no shortcut to the positions that better suit their nature; this is why more than a few take the business start-up/entrepreneurial escape route......
    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I forgot to mention the LIE career trap. Because many LIE can be rather ineffective at regulating and controlling mid-level, day-to-day business activities, they can find it very difficult rising through the ranks in large production/design/development industries from an entry level unless they're extremely intelligent, or management is incompetent or they have friends in high places - there's also luck. Many get trapped in low-level jobs with no shortcut to the positions that better suit their nature; this is why more than a few take the business start-up/entrepreneurial escape route......
    a.k.a. I/O
    This is very interesting; why do you think that is?

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    well if their talents are wasted on menial work, they're unlikely to stand out because their strengths aren't being employed, making them more or less average in light of potentially better suited to that particular kind of work competitors. so maybe they promote those other people because they were "better" at the lower position, then they stall out somewhere down the line because they're not actually that talented to what they got promoted into (this gets called the "peter principle" a lot), meanwhile the LIE is still toiling at the bottom. its easier just to start out being your own boss sometimes and circumvent needing a positive evaluation on your weak aspects before even being able to show your strong ones, because unless your leadership has an eye for talent they're going to overlook you. the thing is though, those orginzations suck anyway for precisely the same reason, rote promotion of the best performers at lower levels does not ensure peak performance at higher levels. you need to be able to match strengths to needs and not rely purely on past performance unless the new job is extremely similar to the old one, and they rarely pay someone more to do the same job. an organization that fails to understand this is doomed to have poor mid level and eventually upper managers, and will eventually fall to competitors that can apply talent better, so you don't want to be married to a shitty organization anyway since its days are numbered, which is all the more reason to just start your own business unless you land in really ideal circumstances, which is really the dream of every person, and LIE doesn't particularly need to rely on that since they can just make their own

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I forgot to mention the LIE career trap. Because many LIE can be rather ineffective at regulating and controlling mid-level, day-to-day business activities, they can find it very difficult rising through the ranks in large production/design/development industries from an entry level unless they're extremely intelligent, or management is incompetent or they have friends in high places - there's also luck. Many get trapped in low-level jobs with no shortcut to the positions that better suit their nature; this is why more than a few take the business start-up/entrepreneurial escape route......
    a.k.a. I/O
    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    This is very interesting; why do you think that is?
    It is because our duals are fairly good at regulating and controlling mid-level, day-to-day business activities.

    Personally, I worked as a mid-level manager in a medium-sized company for a couple of years, and I both loved and hated it. I loved the responsibility and control it gave me and was really very surprised when the people who worked for me turned out to like me. I think the respect I had for them went a long way in that department, but it also might have just been my aftershave.
    What I hated about the job was that I spent all my time organizing their future work and ensuring that they had the resources they needed to get their jobs done. When I got there, the company was three months late in making deliveries, which is very bad when your payroll depends on the bank loaning you money against this month's shipments. When I got fired, we had reduced the missed delivery dates to one day, and that was beaten the following month with the systems I had put in place.
    The reason I had mixed feelings about the job was that I was entirely occupied with planning only for the future of my department, and that in no way ensured the survival of the company in the next few years. The company was still vulnerable to stupid, short-sighted decisions made by managers and salespeople whose time horizons were about one week.

    The first company I started failed because I let the financial partner dictate the direction of the company. Big mistake. His stupidity took down the whole company, and I was too inexperienced to insist on or arrange full control right from the beginning. Low Se, I think they call it in Socionics. ESI's don't seem to have this problem, from what I've seen.

    A year or so ago, I could hear some guys talking down the corridor from my office, complaining that I was paying myself too much. (Lol. Everyone competes.) A male ESI whom I've worked with for the last seven years was in the group, but when he heard them say that, he lit into them in a way that made me cringe. He told them that none of them could do what I was doing, and he did it in his fairly harsh German-accented voice. They grudgingly conceded, and I remember thinking that I was glad that I was not the object of his ire. That is Se.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    This is very interesting; why do you think that is?
    Entry level is usually where one is employed to find specific information for someone else or build to print or follow a set procedure. Individuals are usually employed to work with either factually-based or relationally-based information, which feeds various levels within the organization. Middle management is typically a fact-based structure which leans heavily on S-type strengths whereas top tier management is frequently more relationally-based (N, wheeling and dealing). Middle management is the first to promote, and managers tend to promote staff that behave like themselves. Now, one has to also consider the type of business before assessing potential candidates; an accounting firm may need S-types to the top unless it's going to diversify. All that to say: players, who cannot please the coach, will likely be isolated from the team manager until the day they're let go.......
    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    It is because our duals are fairly good at regulating and controlling mid-level, day-to-day business activities.

    Personally, I worked as a mid-level manager in a medium-sized company for a couple of years, and I both loved and hated it. I loved the responsibility and control it gave me and was really very surprised when the people who worked for me turned out to like me. I think the respect I had for them went a long way in that department, but it also might have just been my aftershave.
    What I hated about the job was that I spent all my time organizing their future work and ensuring that they had the resources they needed to get their jobs done. When I got there, the company was three months late in making deliveries, which is very bad when your payroll depends on the bank loaning you money against this month's shipments. When I got fired, we had reduced the missed delivery dates to one day, and that was beaten the following month with the systems I had put in place.
    The reason I had mixed feelings about the job was that I was entirely occupied with planning only for the future of my department, and that in no way ensured the survival of the company in the next few years. The company was still vulnerable to stupid, short-sighted decisions made by managers and salespeople whose time horizons were about one week.

    The first company I started failed because I let the financial partner dictate the direction of the company. Big mistake. His stupidity took down the whole company, and I was too inexperienced to insist on or arrange full control right from the beginning. Low Se, I think they call it in Socionics. ESI's don't seem to have this problem, from what I've seen.

    A year or so ago, I could hear some guys talking down the corridor from my office, complaining that I was paying myself too much. (Lol. Everyone competes.) A male ESI whom I've worked with for the last seven years was in the group, but when he heard them say that, he lit into them in a way that made me cringe. He told them that none of them could do what I was doing, and he did it in his fairly harsh German-accented voice. They grudgingly conceded, and I remember thinking that I was glad that I was not the object of his ire. That is Se.
    To be honest, I'd say that's Fi, because he's taking into account of your personality, evaluating it, and then yelling at them for being dumb about their job. I guess, like all things, it is a combination of both. He's using his Se, which I translate as respect, to act on his Fi, which saw Te in you, and thus says, yep good worker, which the people talking behind about your unfair salary violated, bringing down the wrath of a violated Fi judgement in an Se user.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

    An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.

    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko

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