How the PoLR influences Ego functions

[Tallmo]

Basic idea: The work of the ego functions seems to be influenced by the PoLR.

Gulenko talks about the PoLR as a function that estimates and gives feedback (among other things).

I started noticing that ILEs thinking and ideas often have an Fi theme. Like they are moral philosophers basically.

LIIs want the analysis to be pragmatic and connected to some reality. Finding "solid ground" for an analysis. (Se PoLR)

LSE wants to control the work to be diligent so that every step fits together smoothly (can be difficult to achieve though) (Ni PoLR)

Observing these three types ILE, LII and LSE made me believe that this is how the PoLR works. It "supervises" the ego functions to do the work according to it. At the same time this makes direct, painful use of the PoLR unnecessary. (For example: If you have a "moral philosophy" on how to live and act, you might not need to use Fi at all on real situations)

This seems to happen often when the person can work in his own pace, in his own way. So not always.

Some other types:

Ne PoLR in xSI. There is a need to "take care of everything". This often translates into responsibility, and can be a strength depending on the situation.

Te PoLR in SEI. Very detail-orieneted, meticulous work. No step can be left out. SEIs love for details cannot be explained by Si only, since Si is just irrational sensing, not directed by anything. And SEIs are not that much into details really, only when concentrating.

Fi PoLR in SLE. Doing the right thing. I have a SLE Facebook friend and she has now her own business. She constantly makes posts on how she fights for her good cause.

I'm not so sure about other types. In the meantime I think I have enough certainty about this phenomenon to start "extrapolating". So how is Si PoLR manifested in EIE for example?

Since EIEs are great actors: It's possible that Si PoLR is affecting the expressions of the EIE to be "natural", like "acting with your skin" or "from the inside". I'm not so sure about this, but I've seen things that point in this direction.

or:

Se PoLR in EII: This might have something to do with their talents as writers. Living the life and sharing the struggles of their characters.

The remaining types: I am not so sure yet.

Disclaimer:
I am not saying that this is always the general attitude of the person. Only that this mechanism seems to exist. And it manifests when a person is using ego functions "my own way".

[WinnieW]

LIIs want the analysis to be pragmatic and connected to some reality. Finding "solid ground" for an analysis. (Se PoLR)

Replace the word "pragmatic" with "empiric" or "evidence-based" and I agree with your statement.

[Tallmo]

Replace the word "pragmatic" with "empiric" or "evidence-based" and I agree with your statement.

I still want to keep "pragmatic". This is not about a general, learned method. It is about how the thinking is naturally directed. I've seen cases when LII is happy with illogical or almost flawed thinking (by normal standards), as long as it works.

[WinnieW]

Normal standards = pragmatism = in Socionics; LII types use however.

[Tallmo]

Normal standards = pragmatism = in Socionics; LII types use however.

It depends on what we mean by the words.
But I'd like to keep the focus on what I wrote in the OP. To me it is clear that there is "Se" in the thinking of LII. But this is a quite broad phenomenon. That's what I tried to explain.

[Bertrand]

I agree with the spirit of this post, and I have a SEI teacher who drives me nuts with his attention to detail! at the same time he's not wrong per se, its just that I don't deem it necessary but the standard he enforces is so high it puts me in a hole because I know I can't live up to it

I think Se polr in EII is sensitivity to how much force they're leveraging but not wanting to leverage no force at all, but rather wanting to change the world, but in the "right" way. its like wanting to get everyone to agree to disarm, but not writing a law banning guns

in other words, they have a fundamentally Se aspiration but one that is massively constrained. its another way of saying they want to Se without Se'ing. Polr is the function you feel should be able to not have to directly engage but rather fulfill by way of your other functions. type in some ways represents the way to produce the polr function as a byproduct of every other function. it really has to do with polr being the "rejected" creative alternative

if Se is primary and Ne is secondary, prefering Ne creative over Se is the idea that you want to creatively induce extroverted perceptions but you prefer to use secondary methods rather than direct. for others they prefer primary over secondary (LSI/ESI). it has to do with a preference for methods, very "do the end justify the means?" philosophical question

interestingly enough the creative DCNH subtype has a more flexible approach where they very much answer the aforementioned question with "yes!" whereas other types would say no, especially normalizing types--the means matter!

[The Reality Denialist]

Is this LII PoLR "solid ground"?



Pancake numbers. It is just organizing stuff according to some sort of requirement. I find this bit confusing.

Numberphile channel does this often.

[Chae]

I always look at it the other way around, how ego functions influence the PoLR.

[Tallmo]

Is this LII PoLR "solid ground"?

Not sure. There seems to be a little too much real sensing involved in her pancake flipping, could also be Se role? But who knows

I'm more thinking of stuff like Jung (LII) relating everything to the "reality of the psyche" etc.

Or Heidegger making some kind of "fundamental ontology". I type him LII.

These are academic examples. In ordinary people it looks more... ordinary, but it's difficult to show examples here.

[WinnieW]

Numberphile channel does this often.

Numberphile is a "hardcore" NT style channel, there can't be seen much sensing (at all).
Furthermore >

[The Idiot]

Could this also cause ENTps and ESTps to be romantics or obsess about being in relationships or am I mistaking those peeps for IXTps?

Also...could subtypes affect this in any way and if so then how?

[Skepsis]

When you mix all the colors together it all looks really nasty.

[Tallmo]

Could this also cause ENTps and ESTps to be romantics or obsess about being in relationships or am I mistaking those peeps for IXTps?

Also...could subtypes affect this in any way and if so then how?

I'm not sure.

Both ILE and SLE can be bring up Fi stuff quite a lot. Especially ILE discusses these things with NeTi.

About subtypes. I've understood that the Harmonizing subtype is influenced by the PoLR a lot. But I haven't enough observations on this myself.

[Rebelondeck]

My perception of PoLR phenomena is slightly different. The j-types, as they mature, recognize the failings of their input processes and tend to consciously want to spend more time in the overlap region of N and S data. Although they still have the same data filter, having spent more time in the 'other' region seems to give a sense of completeness - at least to the extent that natural processing limitations will allow. A similar phenomena occurs with the rationalization processes of p-types. This phenomena also occurs with the dominant processes but ego is too close to be objective or even notice so its more of a subconscious expansion.....
a.k.a. I/O

[Tigerfadder]

Very interesting! Ya... I agree, it is sort of a afterthought that we learn the hard and stupid way but cover up eventually. Maybe even become something we think of so much and trying to improve so much.

[The Reality Denialist]

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1233171
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...77#post1233177

[Exodus]

I'd say that the 4th function can become something a person thinks very consciously about and strives to be successful at. Possibly the most obvious way this happens is the influence of an external ideology - Islam has made me more aware of in terms of personal struggle, and I know of an ESI who perhaps uses an unusual amount of due to being influenced by a strongly socially-liberal education, promoting tolerance, being open-minded, and things like that. Gulenko also seems uncharacteristically interested in power relations, probably due to socionics. In short it has to do with having a deeply felt realization that "yes, this is a real and important area of life [even if I am bad at it / don't instinctively value it]." Then again there are people who are just completely oblivious to it and make no efforts to improve even though they continually fail at it. This last part also goes for the suggestive function.

[Tallmo]

@Rebelondeck @Tigerfadder @thehotelambush @Troll Nr 007


I have a feeling that I haven't made myself clear enough.

I don't mean that people learn to use the PoLR function directly on reality. I mean that the PoLR function processes the information from the ego functions, or gives feedback (Gulenko mentions this) and so to speak directs the Ego function in a certain way.

I might have given this example but anyway: It's quite easy to find ILEs who often discuss moral/social matters, constructing arguments that have a strong Fi bias/theme.

The LSEs methods are designed so that every single step is meticulously taken care of. Making things flow without idle time or interruption.

The saying "LII (Robespierre) is always right" might come from the fact that their intuitive thinking is oriented towards concrete reality. (And they are in fact often right.). I just mean this as a clarification, not as a proof or anything.

etc.

"Using" the PoLR in this way is actually comfortable. It is the preferred use of PoLR.

I think it's possible that this idea is a part of mainstream socionics. I just haven't read the Russian sources so I don't know. But I strongly believe that this is a consistent phenomenon. I've seen this for so many years.

But its not always like this. Only when a person is concentrating and doing things his own way.

[Tigerfadder]

I think that people in general improve with age and that we learn how to deal with what we are given.

[Tallmo]

I think that people in general improve with age and that we learn how to deal with what we are given.

Yes of course. But that was not really the point here. I wanted to put attention on a very specific phenomenon.

[ApeironStella]

I still want to keep "pragmatic". This is not about a general, learned method. It is about how the thinking is naturally directed. I've seen cases when LII is happy with illogical or almost flawed thinking (by normal standards), as long as it works.

That's how I see typologies I am interested in atm. I constantly reality check them by observing/talking/reading about how tendencies and thought processes of types work/might work and I don't take any single one of them as certain, I see them more as things I will likely agree or disagree more with as time passes on and time/experience proves them wrong.

For many people (including people I hang around with) typology is not exactly logical or "sound-proof". And while I can see that, and like to ponder parts where things are more theoretical, I tend to share parts I observe them doing or mentioning, as well as using 'concrete' examples like people I suspect is X type and someone we mutually know.

And as flawed as I see those systems, they actually do give me a different perspective that actually helps me in daily life, at least in the way of being more aware of cognitive differences of others, so I am fine with staying with those theories despite their failings. (They also do help me frame others' actions more accurately than I would if I wasn't as into them, though unless I ask them if that was what they were thinking/feeling/reason of why they did it and reality check with them, it often can go pretty out there and inaccurate, which again would tie with checking my - model, perhaps?)

[Tallmo]

That's how I see typologies I am interested in atm. I constantly reality check them by observing/talking/reading about how tendencies and thought processes of types work/might work and I don't take any single one of them as certain, I see them more as things I will likely agree or disagree more with as time passes on and time/experience proves them wrong.

For many people (including people I hang around with) typology is not exactly logical or "sound-proof". And while I can see that, and like to ponder parts where things are more theoretical, I tend to share parts I observe them doing or mentioning, as well as using 'concrete' examples like people I suspect is X type and someone we mutually know.

And as flawed as I see those systems, they actually do give me a different perspective that actually helps me in daily life, at least in the way of being more aware of cognitive differences of others, so I am fine with staying with those theories despite their failings. (They also do help me frame others' actions more accurately than I would if I wasn't as into them, though unless I ask them if that was what they were thinking/feeling/reason of why they did it and reality check with them, it often can go pretty out there and inaccurate, which again would tie with checking my - model, perhaps?)

LIIs can be extremely constructive. I introduced Socionics to a LII friend. I don't think he believed in it, how could he, it was all new. But he said, great, now we will have something to discuss. He then wanted me to give lots of examples of types so he could judge for himself. Later he said, this is great for constructing hypotheses about people. I introduced Socionics to another friend who is ILE. He said, but how can you really prove this? And went into a complicated argument about certainty and knowledge.

LIIs are good at "cherry picking" theories. They use bits and pieces that gets the job done, whatever it might be. Sometimes this can lead to great discoveries in the long run.

Also listening to authorities, whenever it helps them (although not logically correct). I feel that LIIs don't really care about "correct" thinking as long as it makes sense to the particular case or situation. But here they can be very persistent. It has to make sense to the real situation. I believe this is connected to polr and it is a great strength.

[The Reality Denialist]

LIIs are good at "cherry picking" theories. They use bits and pieces that gets the job done, whatever it might be. Sometimes this can lead to great discoveries in the long run.

Paul Dirac and antimatter is probaby the best example.

[PrettySavage]

Ne PoLR in xSI. There is a need to "take care of everything". This often translates into responsibility, and can be a strength depending on the situation.

Te PoLR in SEI. Very detail-orieneted, meticulous work. No step can be left out. SEIs love for details cannot be explained by Si only, since Si is just irrational sensing, not directed by anything. And SEIs are not that much into details really, only when concentrating.

Fi PoLR in SLE. Doing the right thing. I have a SLE Facebook friend and she has now her own business. She constantly makes posts on how she fights for her good cause.

I'm not so sure about other types. In the meantime I think I have enough certainty about this phenomenon to start "extrapolating". So how is Si PoLR manifested in EIE for example?

Since EIEs are great actors: It's possible that Si PoLR is affecting the expressions of the EIE to be "natural", like "acting with your skin" or "from the inside". I'm not so sure about this, but I've seen things that point in this direction.

or:

Se PoLR in EII: This might have something to do with their talents as writers. Living the life and sharing the struggles of their characters.

The remaining types: I am not so sure yet.

I like this idea because it really checks with what I've observed in people of those types so far. And good hypothesis about EIEs, I've never linked their acting chops to but it makes a lot of sense.

LIIs can be extremely constructive. I introduced Socionics to a LII friend. I don't think he believed in it, how could he, it was all new. But he said, great, now we will have something to discuss. He then wanted me to give lots of examples of types so he could judge for himself. Later he said, this is great for constructing hypotheses about people. I introduced Socionics to another friend who is ILE. He said, but how can you really prove this? And went into a complicated argument about certainty and knowledge.

LIIs are good at "cherry picking" theories. They use bits and pieces that gets the job done, whatever it might be. Sometimes this can lead to great discoveries in the long run.

Also listening to authorities, whenever it helps them (although not logically correct). I feel that LIIs don't really care about "correct" thinking as long as it makes sense to the particular case or situation. But here they can be very persistent. It has to make sense to the real situation. I believe this is connected to polr and it is a great strength.

And who would you say it's the opposite of the LII in the sense that it cares a lot about logically correct thinking, but still demands that the thinking fits reality? Valuing presenting evidence and everything.

Also an interesting comment about the readiness (or not) in "believing" in the validity of a theory that was just presented. I bought typology immediately because it explained (and organized) the patterns I had already noticed in reality. I never questioned the validity of the practice, though I struggled a lot in subscribing to a particular system since none seemed to be "flawless" (for lack of a better term) enough.

[Spermatozoa]

I am cynical about this idea mainly because PoLR is a 1D element, like the suggestive, and thus it's not something that the user will be consciously aware of without feedback from others. You cannot ever compensate for a weakness that you're blind to and dismissive of. The main practical difference between suggestive and PoLR is that while suggestive feedback is welcome, PoLR feedback is not...

To take @Tallmo's first example, Ne PoLR - the xSIs will often be closed to any possibilities, ideas or direction which they haven't experienced for themselves. Mentioning all the things that "could" or "might" happen will only them more anxious, and possibly even angry. Therefore Ni HA helps, because Ni allows one to gain confidence and certainty about a single vision, direction and action (already decided on) using foresight, in the absence of any experience. xSI will seek Ni, not Ne to compensate for their inherent weakness.

Without HA development (which the same type of IE as the PoLR IE, but focused in the opposite direction e.g. Ni vs Ne) you will continue to be held back by the PoLR whatever it may be. My $.02 anyway.

[Bertrand]

polr is a conscious function bruh. its not that you're not aware of it, you're not aware of your mistakes on it, until others inform you

[Spermatozoa]

polr is a conscious function bruh. its not that you're not aware of it, you're not aware of your mistakes on it, until others inform you

I think PoLR awareness will have a lot to do with a person's level of maturity or psychological health.

If you are able to use such a weak, unfavoured function (however poorly), you must have already developed your more favoured functions to a significant extent. Personality evolves over time, you have significant neuroplasticity.

[Bertrand]

yeah its true, some people don't have a super ego

[Delilah]

@Tallmo: i agree with your conclusions regarding the types under consideration even if i have a somewhat different perspective as to how to get to those conclusions

[Spermatozoa]

yeah its true, some people don't have a super ego

You follow theory dogmatically, without ever giving thought to how it should be interpreted or applied.

[Tallmo]

I am cynical about this idea mainly because PoLR is a 1D element, like the suggestive, and thus it's not something that the user will be consciously aware of without feedback from others. You cannot ever compensate for a weakness that you're blind to and dismissive of. The main practical difference between suggestive and PoLR is that while suggestive feedback is welcome, PoLR feedback is not...

To take @Tallmo's first example, Ne PoLR - the xSIs will often be closed to any possibilities, ideas or direction which they haven't experienced for themselves. Mentioning all the things that "could" or "might" happen will only them more anxious, and possibly even angry. Therefore Ni HA helps, because Ni allows one to gain confidence and certainty about a single vision, direction and action (already decided on) using foresight, in the absence of any experience. xSI will seek Ni, not Ne to compensate for their inherent weakness.

Without HA development (which the same type of IE as the PoLR IE, but focused in the opposite direction e.g. Ni vs Ne) you will continue to be held back by the PoLR whatever it may be. My $.02 anyway.

Yes, but this is not really what I meant. I've tried to explain it in this tread but it is hard.

No, we don't like feedback about the PoLR. But what I am talking about is something that seems like an inner mechanism between the PoLR and the Ego. It's the PoLR itself that gives the feedback so that the Ego can adapt.

xSI types don't want to hear about vague possibilities, that true. But what they do instead is that they use the Ego to check "everything". So for example an stereotypical LSI wants to make sure that everything is done correctly and he will check things explicitly. This is not direct Ne use. But it's not ignoring of Ne either. It is the Ne checking back to the Ego making sure it does its job according to the feedback from PoLR. If this is done right then no explicit use of painful Ne is ever needed. (because "everything" has been taken care of)

I don't know if this was a good example, but there are others from other types, as I've mentioned.

The PoLR is a part of the information metabolism just as any other function. It's just that it weak and best not used directly on reality.

I am cynical about this idea

This is partly an idea, but mostly it is something I claim is a consistent phenomenon. I'm hoping that people will see it.

[The Reality Denialist]

I think this is Te PoLR

Google translate + some workarounds:

Pendolino in Finland is not on schedule
Cautiously announce the driver
There is a fault in the engine and the wheel is inoperative

And something miraculously dropped from the sky.
Well, that one should forget, one small thing,
The finest trains are made in Italy!
Well, they always work brilliantly except in winter.
Who fired these correctly decided to order?

Swipe a bit to tilt the time with many throwing,
There are two men in the wagon talking blue:
Moustache-Pete dandruff-Pat,
conductors both,
Nevertheless, the big stamp is waving.
Tickets are considered,
Moustache-Pete announces,
dandruff-Pat is excited to swing his hands.
If you did not have a station to buy a ticket,
The surcharge is six euros.
(i mean five)
In a restaurant car, everything is hell expensive,
Half a liter of water costs two euros.
Still, there are plenty of drums that swoop over the curve
And all except the heat is heated in the microwave.
Spots are scarce, half inoperative,
"It works like a train" is a shit saying.
Smells bad and does not dare to leave tracks,

and it is surprisingly uncomfortable to look up.

There is a stressed atmosphere in PC socket place,
Businessmen are planning marketing strategies.
With the power of caffeine
they give everything,
To make the world a worse place tomorrow.
The richest of all
sitting in a business class.
Serious messages are browsing economics news.

If Nokia rose more than 4 percent
They can afford to take another cup of coffee

With student Card
one could get a ticket with half of the price,
But still it would be cheaper to go by car.
I listened to the Minister of Transport
it says "public use",
Well before you know the others
take your head off the ass!
At last,
over half an hour late.
A friend coming for a little bit.
But everything will turn to the best and day will be saved,
When a businessman out of business class falls down.

[Tallmo]

I think this is Te PoLR

Thanks for the song. I acually think that his Te PoLR is manifested in this song by the myriad of funny detailed procedures, how to buy the ticket etc. That basically just forms an overall impression of the environment. "A lot of stuff is going on"

The finest trains are made in Italy!

"Paskimmat junat tehdään Italiassa"

[PrettySavage]

@Tallmo

I can see the validity of the proposed principle with your xSI example, but how would it play out with PoLR? I can't see how would cover for that.

[Tallmo]

@Tallmo

I can see the validity of the proposed principle with your xSI example, but how would it play out with PoLR? I can't see how would cover for that.

EIEs are know for being theatralic and dramatic. But when they are really acting they are convincing and "natural". I think Si-PoLR is related to hyper-naturalness. It can be about mimics, natural reactions, relaxedness, acting with "your skin". All this in a framework of acting with FeNi. So there is no strong Si here. All is taken care of by the FeNi, but giving the impression of a "natural person" that actually is a role.

This is my hypothesis. But I think the pattern in other types is pretty convincing, so I assume it's something like this. I see it in EIEs, more or less. I'm sure there are other manifestation also, not all EIEs are actors

[Bertrand]

you're saying EIE pretends to have Si? that sort of is in line with Se mobilizing. like chasing the trappings of health--working out to look good, and in doing so actually benefiting in some way on the Si function

another version: buying a nice car so as to have the trappings of status, and in some way gaining it, inasmuch as people are convinced. its a very interesting substitute for logic that long baffled me but now it makes sense

[PrettySavage]

EIEs are know for being theatralic and dramatic. But when they are really acting they are convincing and "natural". I think Si-PoLR is related to hyper-naturalness. It can be about mimics, natural reactions, relaxedness, acting with "your skin". All this in a framework of acting with FeNi. So there is no strong Si here. All is taken care of by the FeNi, but giving the impression of a "natural person" that actually is a role.

This is my hypothesis. But I think the pattern in other types is pretty convincing, so I assume it's something like this. I see it in EIEs, more or less. I'm sure there are other manifestation also, not all EIEs are actors

Yes this is absolutely true, fits what I've also noticed 100%. But that's FeNi, what about TeNi? That's actually what I wanted to know in the first place? Would it be what, really smooth, apparently "easy" actions or...?

[Tallmo]

, what about TeNi? That's actually what I wanted to know in the first place?

You tell me. I don't know. I'm sure it can be found

[PrettySavage]

You tell me. I don't know. I'm sure it can be found

"sureness" is the vaguest thing there is

[Tallmo]

you're saying EIE pretends to have Si? that sort of is in line with Se mobilizing. like chasing the trappings of health--working out to look good, and in doing so actually benefiting in some way on the Si function

another version: buying a nice car so as to have the trappings of status, and in some way gaining it, inasmuch as people are convinced. its a very interesting substitute for logic that long baffled me but now it makes sense

In my opinion your examples are too psychological, intentional. It should be a direct work of the Ego. The Ego does the work of covering for the polr, but only technically. Not in a human, personal way, like buying a car. This is not so much about the person, as it is about a mechanism in the information flow.

you're saying EIE pretends to have Si?

Just as the ILEs pretend to have Fi. Have you noticed?
Pretend is maybe the wrong word. Actually they are expressing the PoLR in the spirit of their Ego functions. The results vary according to PoLR and Ego.