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Thread: SLI-Te and ESE-Fe supervision (ISTp and ESFj)

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    Default SLI-Te and ESE-Fe supervision (ISTp and ESFj)

    What are your thoughts on an ESE-Fe and SLI-Te romantic relationship? I may have mistyped my LSI-Ti.
    We have so much chemistry it would be difficult to consider this supervison.




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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrows View Post
    What are your thoughts on an ESE-Fe and SLI-Te romantic relationship? I may have mistyped my LSI-Ti.
    We have so much chemistry it would be difficult to consider this supervison.
    My ESE mom have chemistry with my LSI brother.
    Ask him to do a test (or a couple).

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    Why don't you tell us about your LSI/SLI? Maybe we can help a bit with finding his type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mayde View Post
    Why don't you tell us about your LSI/SLI? Maybe we can help a bit with finding his type.
    Private
    Quiet
    Serious
    Open to fun plans/adventures if suggested by me
    Works a lot
    Exercises a lot
    Does not like excuses
    Not open to many different ideas unless they lead to a goal
    Polite
    When angered there is quite a temper
    Does not like stupidity at all- things should be logical
    Not aggressive-but not afraid to tell someone off if they step out of line
    Sentimental in his heart
    Kind
    Loyal
    Loving
    Routine
    Goal centered
    hates psychoanalysis and dislikes personality testing
    Won't talk
    Not easy to open up to others but can be sympathetic
    Suspicious of others
    Critical of stupidity
    Cares for a small network of people
    Health focused and driven
    Good saver
    Enjoys physical adventures/being outside
    Kind of gritty and rugged
    Does not care about clothes or decor
    Enjoys technical work
    Can withstand working long hours
    Physical- needs to exercise daily
    Doesn't care what people think of him generally
    Last edited by Iwantpeace; 10-18-2017 at 10:06 PM.




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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrows View Post
    Private
    Quiet
    Serious
    Open to fun plans/adventures if suggested by me
    Works a lot
    Exercises a lot
    Does not like excuses
    Not open to many different ideas unless they lead to a goal
    Polite
    When angered there is quite a temper
    Does not like stupidity at all- things should be logical
    Not aggressive-but not afraid to tell someone off if they step out of line
    Sentimental in his heart
    Kind
    Loyal
    Loving
    Routine
    Goal centered
    hates psychoanalysis and dislikes personality testing
    Won't talk
    Not easy to open up to others but can be sympathetic
    Suspicious of others
    Critical of stupidity
    Cares for a small network of people
    Health focused and driven
    Good saver
    Enjoys physical adventures/being outside
    Kind of gritty and rugged
    Does not care about clothes or decor
    Enjoys technical work
    Can withstand working long hours
    Physical- needs to exercise daily
    Doesn't care what people think of him generally
    The bolded parts are like the SLI Te I know but I guess we can't conclude many things from this. I have focused on SLI because it's the type I know better.
    I think if you're sure of your type, you'll probably know and understand what Fe is and can easily spot it in people who value it. Same thing for Fi.
    And this:
    "ISTps can often hurt the ones they love. Why would you want to do this? The one way to understand your feelings towards the loved ones is by hurting them and watching them suffer, only then you can be sure of how much you love them. Sounds cruel, but unfortunately this is the strange nature of this particular type of hidden agenda, which cannot be used as an excuse for such behaviour."
    I think this behavior is number one indicator of someone being ISTp from my experience (when you're becoming close to them).

    The only LSI I've met, was also not so into tests and all that... he was a workaholic, I felt that he was hiding everything about himself. He can sometimes out of nowhere say affectionate things to his friends. He was also so confident and polite... So yeah most of what you said about your SLI/LSI apply here.

    The differences I could think of:
    ISTps are unpredictable unlike ISTjs.
    ISTjs may be harsh and controlling while SLIs are more gentle and forgiving.
    ISTps are generally relaxed, even though SLI-Te at first may look grumpy and angry, but when you get to know them, they're easy going and laid back.
    ISTjs have a hard time taking a break and they are more likely to be workaholics.
    Last edited by Kernel; 10-18-2017 at 11:07 PM.

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    I just remembered an ESE/SLI-Te interaction. I guess it went badly... especially on part of the SLI. In our class, he was always grumpy or even sad and she often tried to make him happier, she would tell him he should smile more, sometimes she will behave in ways that often lead him to snap out at her and sometimes even insulting her, she used to irritate him a lot... Though the ESE never took his insults seriously and wanted to help, while the SLI was trying to take her advice. What I liked in their interactions is that they were being themselves.

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    Based in the description I agree in SLI over LSI.

    If I have to describe common traits of LSIs…I'd say...very J (rational).
    Planners
    Interested in others opinion, money or fame (social appreciation), serious but pretty social ppl, have a lot of friends, love social stuff, like parties.
    Direct ppl (almost insulting),
    Very individualistic in pursuing their own goals (that are dictated by social/group views or behavior often),
    Like clear rules
    Responsible when adults (but selfish at the same time, you cant expect for help or so much consideration from them).
    They are not interested in doing new things or alternative ways, they love doing what everybody else do, having what everyone else have, and following simple concrete structures/rules with concrete prizes/objectives etc.
    I think that LSIs and ESEs can have understanding in both valuing Fe and Ti.

    In contrast, SLI have fewer friends and are less or not interested in socialization, not open in social environments (a loner), much more alternative interests (more open to new experiences and alternative thinking, prone to have their own view of the world and things), looking for distinctions (not being or doing the same just because everybody else is doing it), pretty hard to convince (stubborn), goal oriented (doesn't work without clear goals), not motivated by social stuff (fame, money, etc) but comfort, lazy, can have problems with motivation (LSIs are pretty easy to motivate from Fe, SLIs from Fi -feelings), much more caring, supporting, providing tangible help (money or support in physical way, like cleaning or fixing things), an ear to listen (in contrast to LSIs that don't enjoy listening to ppl feelings), advisers, and supporters in general (LSIs are more individualistic, you cant expect them helping with chores, f.e.), much more unpredictable, hard to know, intellectually independent etc.


    About my mom, she's ESE 2 with a 6 fix, we get along pretty good. She has always been a loving, accepting and forgiving mother. I lose my temper with her once in a while (when she's inopportune), but when I was a kid it was the opposite, she was the one losing her temper with me once in a while. To me ESEs have like 2 opposite personalities...one who is completely loving, supporting and excessively caring (Si), and other that is full of anger, resentment and condemnation/revenge (Fe). They rarely use this with the ppl they love, though (friends, family, children, partner -if they are in love with him/her etc).


    Also I think that a friend of mine is ESE-Si 6w7. She's a very good friend, we don't have so much intimacy like I have had with another friends (like having an emotional connection or something really deep) but she has always been very supporting and kind with me. According her I've the face of a serial killer. lol

    Edit. Pewdiepie one of the most famous youtubers score ISTJ in MBTI, what would be LSI in socionics, since he presents a clear picture of the Fe Se valuing that I've had observed in the LSIs I know personally.
    Last edited by Hope; 10-19-2017 at 08:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrows View Post
    Sounds terrible- lol. Although I like grumpy people. I don't usually tell them to change their mood, I just play off of it. Usually I bring them a snack and put it on their desk when they aren't there.
    You guys are insuffurable lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrows View Post
    Sounds terrible- lol. Although I like grumpy people. I don't usually tell them to change their mood, I just play off of it. Usually I bring them a snack and put it on their desk when they aren't there.
    Once she noticed I wasn't my usual self, the next day she brought me many gifts and made it obvious that she was worried. This ESE probably didn't realise how much her behavior irritates him or just didn't take it seriously. But for the SLI... he perceived it as a lack of respect. I guess it has to do with the different values Fi/Te or Fe/Ti. They talked many times and she tried to help but other than that there was no deep connection (the SLI said it once).

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    With respect to a relationship that I've witnessed for over the 10 years (no libido influences), the older female ESE thinks that the male SLI has no social graces and is too intransigent to attract a mate; she has lots of advice for his social life, eating habits and personal health, and he politely tolerates the sermons but doesn't seem to act on any of it. In a way, she tries to mother him and the SLI sees her as trying to be helpful but finds her rather meddlesome and thinks her advice is, for the most part, useless gibber-jabber. They seem to talk but don't communicate; the ESE doggedly tries to advance her points and the SLI tries parry her thrusts. The SLI eventually has enough and walks away while the ESE is still talking "at him"......
    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrows View Post
    Open to fun plans/adventures if suggested by me
    Not open to many different ideas unless they lead to a goal
    What's his reaction when you generate ideas/plans for their own sake as a pie in the sky, rather than for implementation?
    Reason is a whore.

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    Your descrition sonds more LSI than SLI
    Assuming that your LSI really turns out to be a SLI-Te, supervision is often labeled as "impossible", "unpleasant" and so on by socionics. My experience is quite the opposite, actually. You often feel good chemistry and sometimes can even end up in a romantic relationship with them. The problem is that you are attracted to the demonstrative(maybe that's why there is a good chemistry) and don't care about the base because you already have your own Si as a creative function. The SLI would often ridicule Ti(annoying if you value Ti) and the ESE can't just switch off Fe (and would likely feel offended by the negative response to the base). I have supervised my entire life and it's not as terrible as the theory makes it sound. I've found that it's a lot easier if I just engage more in the creative when I am around supervisees, it certainly doesn't make me their dual but at least the communication is a lot better. Also you are from neighbouring quadras and your worldviews should be somewhat similar.
    Can't think of an example of SLI-ESE supervision, but from my experience Se egos have worse supervisions than Si egos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    With respect to a relationship that I've witnessed for over the 10 years (no libido influences), the older female ESE thinks that the male SLI has no social graces and is too intransigent to attract a mate; she has lots of advice for his social life, eating habits and personal health, and he politely tolerates the sermons but doesn't seem to act on any of it. In a way, she tries to mother him and the SLI sees her as trying to be helpful but finds her rather meddlesome and thinks her advice is, for the most part, useless gibber-jabber. They seem to talk but don't communicate; the ESE doggedly tries to advance her points and the SLI tries parry her thrusts. The SLI eventually has enough and walks away while the ESE is still talking "at him"......
    a.k.a. I/O
    That's exactly how the relationship I observed went too. Except the fact that the ESE I knew gave up... After many attempts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup View Post
    Based in the description I agree in SLI over LSI.

    If I have to describe common traits of LSIs…I'd say...very J (rational). Planners, interested in others opinion, money or fame (social appreciation), serious but pretty social ppl, have a lot of friends, love social stuff, like parties and group activities. Practical. Love workout (males Se subtype). Direct ppl (almost insulting), they follow their own path (that is dictated by social/group views or behavior often), they like clear rules, can be rebel or problem kids (when young due Se), responsible when adults (but selfish at the same time, you cant expect for help or so much consideration from them). They are not interested in follow their own path or doing new or things in alternative ways, they love doing what everybody else do, having what everyone else have, and following simple concrete structures/rules with concrete prices/objectives etc. I think that LSIs and ESEs can have understanding in both valuing Fe and Ti.

    In contrast, SLI have fewer friends and are less or not interested in socialization, not open in social environments (a loner), much more alternative interests (more open to new experiences and alternative thinking, prone to have their own view of the world and things), looking for distinctions (not being or doing the same just because everybody else is doing it, looking for a difference), pretty hard to convince (stubborn), goal oriented (doesn't work without clear goals), not motivated by social stuff (fame, money, etc) but comfort, lazy, can have problems with motivation (LSIs are pretty easy to motivate from Fe, SLIs from Fi -feelings), much more caring, supporting, providing tangible help (money or support in physical way, like cleaning or fixing things), an ear to listen (in contrast to LSIs that don't enjoy listening to ppl feelings), advisers, and supporters in general (LSIs are more individualistic, you cant expect them helping with chores, f.e.), much more unpredictable, hard to know, intellectually independent etc.
    Um, LSIs are introverts too. Your description doesn't sound much like them. It may fit LSE or even an ethical extrovert better than LSI. But more than anything it describes someone with strong so instinct rather than any particular socionics type.

    All the IxTxs share the "cold-blooded" style: http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...ication_styles -- The most clear differences between them and SLI is with their receptivity to Fe input, and their Se>Si attitude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Um, LSIs are introverts too. Your description doesn't sound much like them. It may fit LSE or even an ethical extrovert better than LSI. But more than anything it describes someone with strong so instinct rather than any particular socionics type.

    All the IxTxs share the "cold-blooded" style: http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...ication_styles -- The most clear differences between them and SLI is with their receptivity to Fe input, and their Se>Si attitude.
    I wasnt focusing in our similarities but differences in the description...so not saying LSIs are not introverts...just that they enjoy more social life than SLIs and thats what jumps to me as difference between they and me. At least thats how it is for the 3 LSIs that I know are, including my brother.

    Actually, lot of the things that I mentioned are part of the quadra values more than just LSI. The LSIs I know really value Fe, and I'm not saying that they arent shy for doing new friends or talking to ppl, but this...

    a) they prefer rules and structures in all their life (including social life). They care for social standards.
    b) they care about how they are seen and work for fitting standards (like nice cars, money etc)
    c) enjoy group activities (like parties or meetings with their friends in weekends).
    d) individualistic or selfish when it comes to emotional support or daily chores
    e)j over p

    Two of them are LSI-Se, other is LSI-Ti, he is more 'strange' in comparision of the Ses, however he enjoys Fe, f.e. parties and group activities with his selected group(every weekend).
    I dont know if it all is SO instinct, I dont think so since I've seen the same kind of things in other Fe valuers.

    Finally, could sound like LSE, if you read just like that, but LSE has a lot of other things that LSI dont do in talking just about social matters, f.e.
    A) LSE seeks for leading
    B) LSE don't care for how they are seen, luxury or fitting in social standards (not nice cars, not muscles, not money for others to see, popular music, trends)
    C) LSE impose ideas and dominate conversations
    D) Joke
    E) Is helpful (even taking the whole responsability and organization of activities) and a giver. Not selfish or individualistic
    F) Enjoy spending time in several groups and comitees and working for social/political causes.

    Maybe if yoy make a list or point some differences of LSI and SLI since your pov could help to figure out LSIs in a better way. Also I would appreciate removing quote, I fixed post, thanks.
    Last edited by Hope; 10-19-2017 at 02:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrows View Post
    Yeah, I almost think he supervises me in regards to planning only. He told me he respects me as he felt we were equals.For a beta this might be important. That I can withstand challenges And have strength. He's also a 8w9.
    If he's 8w9 he's more likely to be LSI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup View Post
    Maybe if yoy make a list or point some differences of LSI and SLI since your pov could help to figure out LSIs in a better way.
    There is the Se vs Si difference, I gave examples HERE

    the tldr of that is
    Si: Let's stop and have a picnic
    Se: No! We must reach the top!

    and also
    Si: be careful, follow the safety regulations, enjoy
    Se: what can I make this do??

    Then there is the Fe difference. Fe is emotional energy, not sociability. Trying to inspire or motivate an Fe polr through emotional energy is much like kicking a wall. The more a person jumps around with enthusiasm trying to infuse the atmosphere with an emotional impetus to action the more the Fe polr will stand unmoved. Not so for IxTjs.

    Here's a rather long exchange between User Name and I from my blog regarding his type in relation to Fe suggestive:

    Quote Originally Posted by User Name
    Besides this, I can't decide between Se and Fe PoLR/Suggestive. Sometimes I think that I'm Fe Suggestive, because if I'm with the right people I can become very extraverted. But my lack of social life, my social anxiety makes me think Fe PoLR. Or is it just a consequence of needing and, therefore, seeking it, because I like it when someone is warm with me, it's just that I can't provide it by myself. I don't relate to Se suggestive. @Chae wrote about "an unconscious need for volitional pressure" that I still struggle to find. Actually, I relate more to it as PoLR, especially when I was a child, as you pointed out.

    Tests, analysis, descriptions: anything seems to point at LII (Inert subtype, in particular, which may explain most of my doubts).

    I've been analyzing my past behavior and I think that I can't be a Fe PoLR. I remember that, especially in middle school, I could fit the role of both "the loner" and "the class clown". It's like I completely changed attitude when the topic was interesting, or when there were people I knew well. Also, due to my occasional hyperactivity, I could/can even act wild in class (once I stood up on the desk and jumped down just because I was happy, or I hit the wall because I was angry). Maybe this is the first reason why my classmates think I'm weird. Let's summarize that, if I am with real friends, I can show my emotions very well, which seems far away from Fe PoLR. I'm just unconscious of it (in fact I had to think about it to discover it).

    I have one other question though. When someone wants to have direct contact with me (hugs is the best example), I feel embarrassed and I don't know what to do. Most of the times, I instinctively reject his/her initiative, or I accept it just not to make the person feel bad. Is this still relatable to Fe Suggestive? You are an LSI, with PoLR, right? What do you do in those situations? How do you relate to Fe Suggestive?
    Quote Originally Posted by squark
    Yes, it's still relatable to fe suggestive. And yes, I'm LSI, and I sometimes react that way too to hugs- because it's nice to be liked and welcomed like that, but sometimes, especially if it's unexpected I don't know exactly how to react so it can be a little embarrassing or awkward.

    I'm not a social person, and keep to myself a lot, but it's really nice to have someone invite me, or want to include me in something and to make me feel welcome. And when I was in school I was very much how you describe yourself, being sometimes very reserved and unreactive, but in other environments silly and much more expressive. I don't like to always hold myself in check, and so when I can be around people where I can be more playful and joking I enjoy it. It is like this description of LSI for me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskova
    Leading a fairly closed off and measured style of life, at the same time, they are not against enjoying some company and merriment, so that they can laugh and fool about, but only in case that the company is made of people whom they consider to be their people.

    Thus find a good reason for celebration and invite your MAXIM or MAKSIMKA. If they know that there they will be entertained and cheered up, then without fail they will come over. And, may be even bring a mask of fake nose with glasses and whiskers. But they will do so only in such a case, if they know that the hosts will with pleasure take up their tomfoolery.
    And on the other side, if people are cold to me, or I feel unwelcome, I shut down and want to leave as soon as possible.

    This too that you wrote is I think Fe-suggestive:

    Quote Originally Posted by User Name
    Yesterday night I played with my band in the main square of our village. I love playing live. I like to feel the sound of my bass buzzing inside my stomach, causing me to become kind of hyperactive and eager to do a stage diving at the end of each song. Although I’m the most introverted in the band, I act quite confidently on-stage. I just like the idea that I’m playing in front of 600 people and they’re dancing to my music. I feel so powerful. And yesterday it went exactly like that.
    The emotions, the atmosphere, the way you're contributing to them, and how it feels to be a part of all of that. I'm not in a band, but in other emotionally raised atmospheres like that for me, it's like a charge is flowing through me, empowering me. One example I'm thinking of is singing and chanting with my teammates before a big competition and how that felt. I feel ready to take on anything like that energy has given me power.

    I was visiting a Civil War museum yesterday, and noticed all the instruments on display, and read about the band that was always playing during marches and before battles and thought how much that could keep the soldier's spirits up, giving them energy and driving them forward. Music itself isn't any one element as it can be lots of them, so I'm not saying that it's Fe itself, but one way it can be used is to raise emotions and add Fe to an environment, creating solidarity of emotion - uniting people whether in war or in a celebration, or even in a solemn or religious ceremony. All different emotions, but still projecting out emotion and raising it in other people.

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    @squark, thats pretty good. But what I listed is my opinion about the differences that I perceive between SLI and LSI. Not a list of theory.
    I didnt just mention different social values as the only difference, btw. I think that emotional energy(Fe) and reaching the top (Se) is reached through social environments talking about the ppl I know irl.If you are different or if theory explains it of different ways, idk. But I'm commenting since my pov as SLI. In other words, that is what I"ve seen, and thats my particular or personal description of them, maybe they are different of how I perceive them. I'm totally aware that X type cant describe Y type in the most pure way since our differences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup View Post
    @squark, thats pretty good. But what I listed is my opinion about the differences that I perceive between SLI and LSI. Not a list of theory.
    I didnt just mention different social values as the only difference, btw. I think that emotional energy(Fe) and reaching the top (Se) is reached through social environments talking about the ppl I know irl.If you are different or if theory explains it of different ways, idk. But I'm commenting since my pov as SLI. Maybe they are different of how I perceive them.
    The focus on being sociable, getting together with people every weekend, and following the crowd etc that you mentioned clearly has nothing to do with being LSI. I don't know that you've even typed those people correctly (which is always an issue when people give examples of those they know.) So, unless it also makes sense within the theory (which your description doesn't) then it's hard to take it on face value as "this is what LSIs are like."

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    @squark my brother has been typed through tests. He's LSI 1w9. And my intention wasnt make of my post another piece of theory. It was my perception and opinion of differences to sorrows question. If you or others want to take them as untrustworthy for not fitting with exact terms of theory thats ok too. At the end (as I repeated before) its my perception and opinion. Its ok if others disagree and stick to their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup View Post
    @squark my brother has been typed through tests. And my intention wasnt make of my post another piece of theory. It was my perception and opinion of differences to sorrows question. If you or others want to take them as untrustworthy for not fitting with exact terms of theory thats ok too.
    That wasn't the point. The point was that specific aspects that you mentioned: the social aspects in particular, were not LSI-related characteristics. For an extreme example it would be like me listing: SLIs have brown eyes. If you mix in characteristics and behaviors that aren't actually tied to element and function usages it's going to paint an inaccurate picture. That's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    That wasn't the point. The point was that specific aspects that you mentioned: the social aspects in particular, were not LSI-related characteristics. For an extreme example it would be like me listing: SLIs have brown eyes. If you mix in characteristics and behaviors that aren't actually tied to element and function usages it's going to paint an inaccurate picture. That's all.
    Your opinion I respect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrows View Post
    He prefers to discuss/lead long term plans. They all need a clear objective. He wants me to have clear long-term plans. This would be the only real issue in communication.
    Sounds more Ni-valuing fwiw.

    Short term plans (weekends, trips, family celebrations, dates, movies etc) he prefers I do and share all the details in advance. On Friday night he will often say "What are we doing this weekend?". I hate planning so much
    Could be an interesting read: http://www.metafilter.com/151267/Whe...motional-Labor

    Nice start point is the post posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:30 PM on July 15, 2015.
    Reason is a whore.

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    @squark

    TiSe: that's what an specific part of theory says. (Regardless what anyone else have seen or experienced).

    What makes sense to you is not what makes sense to me or the inverse. Saying that TiSe makes sense over SiTe is a limited understanding, imo. Also I've 4dTi too. Its not that what I say doesnt make any sense. Its like I value experience and observations besides theory. Plus, theory means hypothesis, supposition, conjecture, speculation, etc.

    That's why socionics is a personality theory. Theory is not the same as law. Socionics is not a science, can't be treated as such.

    In regards to theories, I appreciate experience and opinions, unlikely some Ti valuers, guess.
    Last edited by Hope; 10-19-2017 at 06:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup View Post
    @squark

    TiSe: that's what an specific part of theory says. (Regardless what anyone else have seen or experienced).

    What makes sense to you is not what makes sense to me or the inverse. Saying that TiSe makes sense over SiTe is a limited understanding, imo. Also I've 4dTi too. Its not that what I say doesnt make any sense. Its like I value experience and observations besides theory. Plus, theory means hypothesis, supposition, conjecture, speculation, etc.

    That's why socionics is a personality theory. Theory is not the same as law. Socionics is not a science, can't be treated as such.

    In regards to theories, I appreciate experience and opinions, unlikely some Ti valuers, guess.
    It wasn't an insult, nor did I say that you didn't make sense.

    This
    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup
    I value experience and observations besides theory.
    is the distinction I'm drawing. Of course I ALSO value observations and experience, it's a difference of focus however. It's the difference between saying "how do my observations fit within this system" vs "these are all my observations."

    So, from my perspective, I'm leaving out the things that don't matter, that have no bearing on or relation to type. That's what it looks like to me.

    I wasn't trying to put you down or anything like that at all. Drawing a distinction between ways of approaching something isn't the same thing as saying that one thing is better or worse. I wasn't saying that your approach was bad or anything like that - just different from mine. And clarifying that some of the things you mentioned weren't related to LSI as a type.

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    @squark

    I wasn't trying to offend or insult LSIs either when saying that the ones I know irl value more social stuff (that I interpret as valuing Fe and Se) than me.
    But maybe you felt offended because you though that my opinion exclude some ppl as LSI or my post was trying to normalize or set a behavior as rule trait for LSIs (something I think a Se/Fe would do), but was not my intention at any rate.
    Last edited by Hope; 10-19-2017 at 08:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup View Post
    @squark

    I wasn't trying to offend or insult LSIs either when saying that the ones I know irl value more social stuff (that I interpret as valuing Fe and Se) than me.
    But maybe you felt offended because you though that my opinion exclude some ppl as LSI or my post was trying to normalize or set a behavior as rule trait for LSIs (something I interpret as Se), but was not my intention at any rate.
    No, I wasn't offended at all. I don't identify myself with my type, so it makes little difference to me. This whole time I was just trying to clarify what was and was not related to the type. The social aspects that you mentioned were what stood out most strongly to me as not being related.

    I don't even like to use myself as an example, so don't do so that often. I don't think the over-identification that can happen is very useful as a whole - for example if someone is constantly saying "I don't do that" or "I do that/ I relate to that" and inserting themselves as an example of a type in every circumstance because it only says what they do or don't like and doesn't really say anything about how various things relate to the type as a whole. I'm sure your brother is quite social like you mentioned, and may also be LSI. That's not a contradiction. However, being social isn't part of being LSI, that's a separate trait. And it's one that is probably found more often in some other types, especially extroverts. So yeah, nothing you said offended me, I just wanted to bring some clarity. I probably didn't do so in the smoothest way though.

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    I think this pretty much fits in what I was trying to say about LSIs and their social streak:


    The ISTj (LSI) internally strives towards stability, a world that does not change, relationships that do not change - logically beautiful and coherent, calculated, and well reasoned through. For this very reason ISTj's type of intellect - is most the socially oriented one. As the social orientation of this sociotype is determined by the very "program" function of his intellect - the logic of concrete systems (just as the method of its realization, at which this program is oriented - the volitional administrative pressuring).

    In its social mission, ISTj's logical program is meant to be an alternative to any sort of destabilization of his environment and surrounding structures: social, political, physical, biological, and so on.For this very reason, LSI's understanding of consistency, reasonableness, rationality is linked, first of all, to the organization of structural order (the "order of things") within the framework of some real, concretely existing system.


    Outside of the system the ISTj never examines anything - such is the type of his intellect. Any phenomenon is viewed by him as part of certain existing system, that is regulated by certain patters and laws and a certain logical order, understanding which the LSI considers to be his obligation.

    Perceiving his surrounding reality from the point of view of its systematization, logical design, and coherence, the ISTj is constantly analyzing the systems existing around himself - the system of logical and ethical interrelations, the systems of social structures, the system of views and opinions, the systems of life values.

    The meaning and essence of any event or phenomenon the ISTj understands through awareness of its "systematization", as if asking himself the question: this is an isolated occurrence, or it is attributable to some system? Is this an isolated act, or is this a model of behavior? Is this an accidental actions or motion, or is there some system of views and values behind it?

    To understand the inner essence of phenomena, to figure out and elucidate the cause-effect connections between phenomena of the most varied sort, to analyze the observed phenomena, to systematize the conclusions, to derive some more generalized definition and introduce it into an already existing system of views, to chose from all existing systems the one most suitable for achievement of specific goals and to improve it, to adapt this system to the specific social conditions, thinking it over and working through the smallest details - all of this is the sphere of on-going intellectual activity of any of the representatives of this type.

    Due to intrinsic peculiarities of this type of intellect, representatives of this type find it most natural to perceive their surrounding reality as a certain centralized system. ("One sun shines on us all, one God exists for us all, one Church on this earth, and the Pope is its deputy!") But even if such perception substantially limits the method and forms of LSI's thinking, at the same time it expresses the specific directivity of his type intellect, namely - its social orientation, the arrangement and distribution of forces in a social system.

    The ISTj never exists outside of the system of social relations, since the circle and the nature of his personal interrelations is already systematized
    in itself and takes a form of clear hierarchical subdivision, because this more easily fits into LSI's conception of the inherent "logical order of things". It is generally difficult for representatives of this type to consider or even imagine another point of view: it simply does not fit into their own set mental structure and their own system of views.

    Under no circumstances can the ISTj be "by himself", "thinking only for himself", "himself only for himself" - this contradicts the program of his intellect too much. (Which, similarly to the program of his dual ENFj (EIE), has a goal of living through uncertain times, creating and introducing order, and surviving under extreme conditions. For this very reason this sociotype is characterized by certain conformism and loyalty with respect to the existing regime, since the ISTj often attempts to find an application for himself within an existing ruling social system. Even if a representative of this type exists as some "antisocial" element, nevertheless he cannot be "by himself".For the LSI it is difficult to be a "lone wolf" - his intuition is insufficiently developed for this ; therefore, the LSI will for certain be organized within the framework some or another social structure, where he will fulfill all entrusted to him duties and hold the responsibility for his actions - another form of behavior for the LSI simply does not exist.)

    Due to the fact that representatives of this type consider themselves (and every other individual) to be a part of an existing system of relations, they consider any manifestation of individualism to be unacceptable for themselves, going beyond the framework of what is permissible, undermining and weakening the social foundations, and introducing chaos and anarchy into the existing order of things. Therefore they see a special social significance in such activities as creation and introduction of instructions, procedures, social and juridical laws, establishment of standards and norms. LSIs treat their work with much responsibility, and therefore they are usually quite successful at work and in their career.

    The distribution and arrangement of forces in a system, in LSI's opinion, must be logical, thoroughly reasoned, orderly, and fair. It must provide for a clear distribution of duties and corresponding measures of responsibility for these duties.

    Similarly to the INTj (LII), the ISTj considers it necessary to edify and guide the public consciousness, with orientation of this activity being directed at the purposes and goals of the existing social system. For this very reason, representatives of this type are characterized not only by a social, but also by an ideological orientation. It is also for this very reason that just like his dual the ENFj (EIE), the ISTj is distinguished by an active social position and points of view. Representatives of this type are inclined to see their social destiny in ideological and educational work, in bringing up the necessary, pre-defined social consciousness in the younger generations (examples: Alexei Maximovich Gorky and Anton Semyonovich Makarenko).

    The LSI considers the interchangeability of all of system's parts to be an indicator of high quality and viability of any system, as well as a guarantee of its stability. A person being a part of a social system must be interchangeable: in such conditions every person will be able to find his place in an already existing social system. And the system itself will be already be good by ensuring full occupation and employment to each person. (This state of things is especially convenient for the LSI in view of his weak intuition of possibilities.)

    In LSI's opinion, a perfect system must not have any unique, irreplaceable elements. In working associations there must not be any irreplaceable specialists, any clearly expressed individualists, since this creates inequality in interrelations, produces confusion and uncertainty, and for this very reason becomes dangerous for the vital activity of the entire collective in critical situation. (In this, LSI's critical attitude towards openly individualistic positions is demonstrated once again: a person can be a bright individual as much as he or she desires it, but this does not give the right to consider oneself irreplaceable.)

    LSI's thinking is very systematized. All that happens he attempts to explain from a logical point of view. (In logical issues and questions, it's not easy to convince the LSI otherwise or to confuse and throw him off his course.)

    The ISTj knows how to estimate the intellectual potential of his conversation partner, although his evaluation frequently tends to be critical. In debates the LSI tries to take the initiative - the last word must remain with him. (Sensor!)

    The ISTj magnificently well develops methods, calculates and compiles tables, graphics, textbooks, manuals, and so on.

    A good speaker and presenter, the ISTj presents material sequentially, in stages, so that the entire logical chain is easily traceable up to its final logical conclusion. When speaking before an audience, the LSI tends to pose questions and answer them himself.

    In expressing his point of view the LSI is quite pedantic. He will defend his system of views and values, expressing himself with extreme maximalism. It's not enough to say that the LSI relates with respect to the hierarchical social systems, where everyone needs to know his place: other systems he simply does not accept.

    In LSI's opinion, the behavior of a person needs to correspond to his position, otherwise public consciousness will be disoriented by models of the "unbecoming" behavior, which will lead to the destabilization of the social system. Respect for the authority - is one of the most important values of his intellectual structure. Orientation at authority - is an important motivation for many of his actions, that in many respects determine the nature of LSI's relationships and behavior.

    Gifted by nature with a phenomenal power of observation, the LSI thoroughly gathers and scrupulously processes factual bits of information, knowing how to find within the flow of information precisely what he needs. He is scrupulous and disapproves when some allegedly "unessential" minor facts get ignored or some seemingly insignificant errors in calculations are permitted - in this the ISTj is very specific and attentive.

    People who don't know how to logically present their thoughts, who get distracted by tangential issues from the main topic or subject matter, tend to irritate and annoy people of this type. The LSI is annoyed by a negligent attitude and treatment of formulations, confusions and mix-ups in terminology and in definitions, and, the most terrible - confusion and chaos in presentation of thought.

    2nd Function - Se Se Extraverted sensing
    A real and concrete logical program must be implemented by concrete methods, and what can be more real and concrete than the method of direct sensing effect?

    After appointing the ISTj as the theorist of concrete systems, nature has armed him with such a powerful tool as the flexible and manipulative volitional sensing - a willful, goal-oriented, real influence on his surroundings by means of keen awareness his own capability and power in space, his own significance, and the rightfulness of his volitional methods.

    Belonging to an actually existing public structures gives the ISTj a sense of his own social significance, which he sees in the service to the ideals of his system: he creates a theoretical basis for it and builds strong administrative structures that are fundamental and inviolable at all periods of time. (The main system can crumble, but its administrative apparatus can quickly undergo a reform and continue to function under another flag and other slogans.)

    The ISTj is distinguished by high exactingness towards both himself and towards people around him, and by intolerance of any kinds of manifestations of disorder within the framework of his system and any cultivation of anarchy and chaos within it.

    The ISTj sincerely admires such qualities as high work capability. The selfless labor for the good of society, for the good of the team or group - this is the norm of human activity, which is the only one allowed in a healthy and viable social system. And vice versa, any slackness, irresponsibility, and sloppiness undermine social foundations, lead a society to its weakening and destruction, to social calamities and catastrophes; therefore, the LSI considers that it is necessary to fight such manifestations by all means, without pity or any leniency.

    The ISTj is always ready to directly counter and fight any manifestations of disorder, incompetence, and irresponsibility in society. (For example, the LSI can spend much of his vacation time fighting the deficiencies in the system of hotel maintenance and nutrition, and later return home tired, worn out, but happy - one additional center of sloppiness has been liquidated by his efforts and now other vacationers can get full service.)

    Within the framework of ISTj's system there cannot be simply a group of people - there is a collective, united by common interests and organized hierarchically; irrespective of its membership count and the age of its members, there is always someone appointed to manage and lead it within the "entrusted area" ("commander of the unit", "supervisor of the floor", etc.). The volitional sensing of LSI, in contrast to the militant-moralizing volitional sensing of ESI (ISFj) and the administrative mob boss-like volitional sensing of SLE (ESTp), carries a militant-administrative nature (in view of the particularities of the dual dyad LSI-EIE). This partly explains why within the framework of LSI's social system a group of people becomes converted into a "unit", a "squad", or a "brigade".

    The ISTj can settle comfortably into any level of the social hierarchy. For the LSI the main thing is to occupy a place in this system. He or she can carry out any official work with the same zeal, and conduct his business relations in accordance to the occupied position: make demands of subordinates and try not to argue with his higher-ups. "The management knows better" - is an LSI phrase, and the argument: "I was only carrying out orders" - is the most convincing one. And it is incomprehensible to the ISTj how it's possible to dispute this. According to LSI's hierarchical logic, within his system the subordinates must obey those standing above them, and the young must obey the elders.**
    [**Editor's note: This is conditioned by LSI's particular form of thinking.]

    The ISTj tends to be politely strict in communication. Always disciplined, collected, neat, operative, responsible, and punctual: these qualities ideally correspond to the social function and motivations of sociotype LSI - work for the good of the social system.

    His home the LSI also views as an entrusted to him "area" within the system. Therefore, everything in his home becomes subordinated to the system's precise rules. The distribution of family budget, the behavior of the members of family - everything must be subjected to strict control and inspection. The concept of "the order of things" in LSI's household acquires special significance, in both literal and figurative sense - this does not only constitute a designated place for each thing, but also a specific place for each member of the family within the family hierarchy.

    ISTj's instrument of willful influence is a creatively used system of encouragements and punishments (the system of "whip and carrot"). Within the entrusted to him "area", the ISTj won't tolerate even the slightest resistance to his will. The shorter the personal distance, the stricter and harsher the measures of his willful influencing of others become.

    It is necessary to give the ISTj some credit in that before punishing anyone he typically explains why that person is being punished (it is necessary to edify and raise the consciousness of the member of the society), but if the "misdeed" is repeated all too often, then the LSI can punish without a warning. Moreover, the suddenness of his punishment is often unexpected and therefore frightening: "Music lessons were a real trial for me. They would start with my father carefully tuning the violin, neatly laying out the note sheets, and, most importantly, hanging his belt on the back of the chair. If I got distracted or played a false note, the belt fell directly on me ... However, after such lessons, my father was especially affectionate and put candy under my pillow ... He loved to say that many great musicians were trained by this same method ..."

    The ISTj loves to use verified tried-and-tested methods, especially if they agree with his own point of view and are known by him to bring positive results.

    ISTj's system of "encouragements and punishments" is constructed on contrasts of sensations, and in this, as any sensing type, the LSI is magnificently discerning - he knows what is real pain and what is real pleasure (and if he doesn't know this yet, then he may, from purely intellectual considerations, want to test this on himself or on others). It must be noted that this form of volitional influencing is meant, first of all, for mobilization and discipline of his dual, ENFj (EIE), for his weak, and sometimes quite inert sensing, which without an appropriate impulse does not "engage" and "start working". Not feelings confidence that he is being guided by a strong and firm hand, without the awareness of the fact that there are limits to all-permissiveness, without sharp contrasts in sensory impressions, the EIE feels poorly - he loses his vitality, his "inner rod", his support and orientation points, and begins to feel depressed and irritated, and starts to annoy other people, provoke them to quarrels, as if demanding that they would prove to him what they are capable of. The EIE respects strength and despises all weaklings and wimps; therefore he sufficiently quickly finds common language with the LSI, sensing in him a person and a partner who is worthy in every respect.

    Additionally, at this stage LSI's aspect of "sensing of sensations" (Si) gets turned on, which for the LSI is a demonstrative function that is realized unconsciously - and thus in correspondence to the changes in his moods. Thus, the LSI cannot always fully and consciously acknowledge why he suddenly wished to inflict pain and what motivated him to do this, since this wish arises in him almost instinctively and sufficiently often, at the signs of slightest irritation. Then, later, the LSI can come up with a logical basis for his actions and explain that he did this for educational purposes. If the LSI feels that he has overdone it with his volitional sensing methods, he will certainly try to find a way to make up for this and diminish his fault by a kind act.

    Etc etc, Strat description

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    Strat is godlike in her ability to describe how types work from a Fi perspective

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    I would say the relationship results in a checkmate for both. - in that subtype constellation turn out to be very stubborn, contrary to a very high degree. The tragedy is that SLI-Te's is just excellent and feeds ESE naturally, but not the other way around, not much found from ESE-Fe. That's why supervision is so one-sided, you can feel that instantly.

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    In my opinion, it results in worse than SLI or SLI-Si.

    As, when your accepting function usage increases, so it does in your super ego block, so for SLI, that's an increase in Fe, and SLI's Fe is a no gooder for producing when around a proper Fe type.

    The best way for an SLI to improve their Fe, is not really through usage, but by absorption - strengthening the F function through Fi results in the other side Fe being better too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup View Post
    I think this pretty much fits in what I was trying to say about LSIs and their social streak:


    The ISTj (LSI) internally strives towards stability, a world that does not change, relationships that do not change - logically beautiful and coherent, calculated, and well reasoned through. For this very reason ISTj's type of intellect - is most the socially oriented one. As the social orientation of this sociotype is determined by the very "program" function of his intellect - the logic of concrete systems (just as the method of its realization, at which this program is oriented - the volitional administrative pressuring).

    In its social mission, ISTj's logical program is meant to be an alternative to any sort of destabilization of his environment and surrounding structures: social, political, physical, biological, and so on.For this very reason, LSI's understanding of consistency, reasonableness, rationality is linked, first of all, to the organization of structural order (the "order of things") within the framework of some real, concretely existing system.


    Outside of the system the ISTj never examines anything - such is the type of his intellect. Any phenomenon is viewed by him as part of certain existing system, that is regulated by certain patters and laws and a certain logical order, understanding which the LSI considers to be his obligation.

    Perceiving his surrounding reality from the point of view of its systematization, logical design, and coherence, the ISTj is constantly analyzing the systems existing around himself - the system of logical and ethical interrelations, the systems of social structures, the system of views and opinions, the systems of life values.

    The meaning and essence of any event or phenomenon the ISTj understands through awareness of its "systematization", as if asking himself the question: this is an isolated occurrence, or it is attributable to some system? Is this an isolated act, or is this a model of behavior? Is this an accidental actions or motion, or is there some system of views and values behind it?

    To understand the inner essence of phenomena, to figure out and elucidate the cause-effect connections between phenomena of the most varied sort, to analyze the observed phenomena, to systematize the conclusions, to derive some more generalized definition and introduce it into an already existing system of views, to chose from all existing systems the one most suitable for achievement of specific goals and to improve it, to adapt this system to the specific social conditions, thinking it over and working through the smallest details - all of this is the sphere of on-going intellectual activity of any of the representatives of this type.

    Due to intrinsic peculiarities of this type of intellect, representatives of this type find it most natural to perceive their surrounding reality as a certain centralized system. ("One sun shines on us all, one God exists for us all, one Church on this earth, and the Pope is its deputy!") But even if such perception substantially limits the method and forms of LSI's thinking, at the same time it expresses the specific directivity of his type intellect, namely - its social orientation, the arrangement and distribution of forces in a social system.

    The ISTj never exists outside of the system of social relations, since the circle and the nature of his personal interrelations is already systematized
    in itself and takes a form of clear hierarchical subdivision, because this more easily fits into LSI's conception of the inherent "logical order of things". It is generally difficult for representatives of this type to consider or even imagine another point of view: it simply does not fit into their own set mental structure and their own system of views.

    Under no circumstances can the ISTj be "by himself", "thinking only for himself", "himself only for himself" - this contradicts the program of his intellect too much. (Which, similarly to the program of his dual ENFj (EIE), has a goal of living through uncertain times, creating and introducing order, and surviving under extreme conditions. For this very reason this sociotype is characterized by certain conformism and loyalty with respect to the existing regime, since the ISTj often attempts to find an application for himself within an existing ruling social system. Even if a representative of this type exists as some "antisocial" element, nevertheless he cannot be "by himself".For the LSI it is difficult to be a "lone wolf" - his intuition is insufficiently developed for this ; therefore, the LSI will for certain be organized within the framework some or another social structure, where he will fulfill all entrusted to him duties and hold the responsibility for his actions - another form of behavior for the LSI simply does not exist.)

    Due to the fact that representatives of this type consider themselves (and every other individual) to be a part of an existing system of relations, they consider any manifestation of individualism to be unacceptable for themselves, going beyond the framework of what is permissible, undermining and weakening the social foundations, and introducing chaos and anarchy into the existing order of things. Therefore they see a special social significance in such activities as creation and introduction of instructions, procedures, social and juridical laws, establishment of standards and norms. LSIs treat their work with much responsibility, and therefore they are usually quite successful at work and in their career.

    The distribution and arrangement of forces in a system, in LSI's opinion, must be logical, thoroughly reasoned, orderly, and fair. It must provide for a clear distribution of duties and corresponding measures of responsibility for these duties.

    Similarly to the INTj (LII), the ISTj considers it necessary to edify and guide the public consciousness, with orientation of this activity being directed at the purposes and goals of the existing social system. For this very reason, representatives of this type are characterized not only by a social, but also by an ideological orientation. It is also for this very reason that just like his dual the ENFj (EIE), the ISTj is distinguished by an active social position and points of view. Representatives of this type are inclined to see their social destiny in ideological and educational work, in bringing up the necessary, pre-defined social consciousness in the younger generations (examples: Alexei Maximovich Gorky and Anton Semyonovich Makarenko).

    The LSI considers the interchangeability of all of system's parts to be an indicator of high quality and viability of any system, as well as a guarantee of its stability. A person being a part of a social system must be interchangeable: in such conditions every person will be able to find his place in an already existing social system. And the system itself will be already be good by ensuring full occupation and employment to each person. (This state of things is especially convenient for the LSI in view of his weak intuition of possibilities.)

    In LSI's opinion, a perfect system must not have any unique, irreplaceable elements. In working associations there must not be any irreplaceable specialists, any clearly expressed individualists, since this creates inequality in interrelations, produces confusion and uncertainty, and for this very reason becomes dangerous for the vital activity of the entire collective in critical situation. (In this, LSI's critical attitude towards openly individualistic positions is demonstrated once again: a person can be a bright individual as much as he or she desires it, but this does not give the right to consider oneself irreplaceable.)

    LSI's thinking is very systematized. All that happens he attempts to explain from a logical point of view. (In logical issues and questions, it's not easy to convince the LSI otherwise or to confuse and throw him off his course.)

    The ISTj knows how to estimate the intellectual potential of his conversation partner, although his evaluation frequently tends to be critical. In debates the LSI tries to take the initiative - the last word must remain with him. (Sensor!)

    The ISTj magnificently well develops methods, calculates and compiles tables, graphics, textbooks, manuals, and so on.

    A good speaker and presenter, the ISTj presents material sequentially, in stages, so that the entire logical chain is easily traceable up to its final logical conclusion. When speaking before an audience, the LSI tends to pose questions and answer them himself.

    In expressing his point of view the LSI is quite pedantic. He will defend his system of views and values, expressing himself with extreme maximalism. It's not enough to say that the LSI relates with respect to the hierarchical social systems, where everyone needs to know his place: other systems he simply does not accept.

    In LSI's opinion, the behavior of a person needs to correspond to his position, otherwise public consciousness will be disoriented by models of the "unbecoming" behavior, which will lead to the destabilization of the social system. Respect for the authority - is one of the most important values of his intellectual structure. Orientation at authority - is an important motivation for many of his actions, that in many respects determine the nature of LSI's relationships and behavior.

    Gifted by nature with a phenomenal power of observation, the LSI thoroughly gathers and scrupulously processes factual bits of information, knowing how to find within the flow of information precisely what he needs. He is scrupulous and disapproves when some allegedly "unessential" minor facts get ignored or some seemingly insignificant errors in calculations are permitted - in this the ISTj is very specific and attentive.

    People who don't know how to logically present their thoughts, who get distracted by tangential issues from the main topic or subject matter, tend to irritate and annoy people of this type. The LSI is annoyed by a negligent attitude and treatment of formulations, confusions and mix-ups in terminology and in definitions, and, the most terrible - confusion and chaos in presentation of thought.

    2nd Function - Se Se Extraverted sensing
    A real and concrete logical program must be implemented by concrete methods, and what can be more real and concrete than the method of direct sensing effect?

    After appointing the ISTj as the theorist of concrete systems, nature has armed him with such a powerful tool as the flexible and manipulative volitional sensing - a willful, goal-oriented, real influence on his surroundings by means of keen awareness his own capability and power in space, his own significance, and the rightfulness of his volitional methods.

    Belonging to an actually existing public structures gives the ISTj a sense of his own social significance, which he sees in the service to the ideals of his system: he creates a theoretical basis for it and builds strong administrative structures that are fundamental and inviolable at all periods of time. (The main system can crumble, but its administrative apparatus can quickly undergo a reform and continue to function under another flag and other slogans.)

    The ISTj is distinguished by high exactingness towards both himself and towards people around him, and by intolerance of any kinds of manifestations of disorder within the framework of his system and any cultivation of anarchy and chaos within it.

    The ISTj sincerely admires such qualities as high work capability. The selfless labor for the good of society, for the good of the team or group - this is the norm of human activity, which is the only one allowed in a healthy and viable social system. And vice versa, any slackness, irresponsibility, and sloppiness undermine social foundations, lead a society to its weakening and destruction, to social calamities and catastrophes; therefore, the LSI considers that it is necessary to fight such manifestations by all means, without pity or any leniency.

    The ISTj is always ready to directly counter and fight any manifestations of disorder, incompetence, and irresponsibility in society. (For example, the LSI can spend much of his vacation time fighting the deficiencies in the system of hotel maintenance and nutrition, and later return home tired, worn out, but happy - one additional center of sloppiness has been liquidated by his efforts and now other vacationers can get full service.)

    Within the framework of ISTj's system there cannot be simply a group of people - there is a collective, united by common interests and organized hierarchically; irrespective of its membership count and the age of its members, there is always someone appointed to manage and lead it within the "entrusted area" ("commander of the unit", "supervisor of the floor", etc.). The volitional sensing of LSI, in contrast to the militant-moralizing volitional sensing of ESI (ISFj) and the administrative mob boss-like volitional sensing of SLE (ESTp), carries a militant-administrative nature (in view of the particularities of the dual dyad LSI-EIE). This partly explains why within the framework of LSI's social system a group of people becomes converted into a "unit", a "squad", or a "brigade".

    The ISTj can settle comfortably into any level of the social hierarchy. For the LSI the main thing is to occupy a place in this system. He or she can carry out any official work with the same zeal, and conduct his business relations in accordance to the occupied position: make demands of subordinates and try not to argue with his higher-ups. "The management knows better" - is an LSI phrase, and the argument: "I was only carrying out orders" - is the most convincing one. And it is incomprehensible to the ISTj how it's possible to dispute this. According to LSI's hierarchical logic, within his system the subordinates must obey those standing above them, and the young must obey the elders.**
    [**Editor's note: This is conditioned by LSI's particular form of thinking.]

    The ISTj tends to be politely strict in communication. Always disciplined, collected, neat, operative, responsible, and punctual: these qualities ideally correspond to the social function and motivations of sociotype LSI - work for the good of the social system.

    His home the LSI also views as an entrusted to him "area" within the system. Therefore, everything in his home becomes subordinated to the system's precise rules. The distribution of family budget, the behavior of the members of family - everything must be subjected to strict control and inspection. The concept of "the order of things" in LSI's household acquires special significance, in both literal and figurative sense - this does not only constitute a designated place for each thing, but also a specific place for each member of the family within the family hierarchy.

    ISTj's instrument of willful influence is a creatively used system of encouragements and punishments (the system of "whip and carrot"). Within the entrusted to him "area", the ISTj won't tolerate even the slightest resistance to his will. The shorter the personal distance, the stricter and harsher the measures of his willful influencing of others become.

    It is necessary to give the ISTj some credit in that before punishing anyone he typically explains why that person is being punished (it is necessary to edify and raise the consciousness of the member of the society), but if the "misdeed" is repeated all too often, then the LSI can punish without a warning. Moreover, the suddenness of his punishment is often unexpected and therefore frightening: "Music lessons were a real trial for me. They would start with my father carefully tuning the violin, neatly laying out the note sheets, and, most importantly, hanging his belt on the back of the chair. If I got distracted or played a false note, the belt fell directly on me ... However, after such lessons, my father was especially affectionate and put candy under my pillow ... He loved to say that many great musicians were trained by this same method ..."

    The ISTj loves to use verified tried-and-tested methods, especially if they agree with his own point of view and are known by him to bring positive results.

    ISTj's system of "encouragements and punishments" is constructed on contrasts of sensations, and in this, as any sensing type, the LSI is magnificently discerning - he knows what is real pain and what is real pleasure (and if he doesn't know this yet, then he may, from purely intellectual considerations, want to test this on himself or on others). It must be noted that this form of volitional influencing is meant, first of all, for mobilization and discipline of his dual, ENFj (EIE), for his weak, and sometimes quite inert sensing, which without an appropriate impulse does not "engage" and "start working". Not feelings confidence that he is being guided by a strong and firm hand, without the awareness of the fact that there are limits to all-permissiveness, without sharp contrasts in sensory impressions, the EIE feels poorly - he loses his vitality, his "inner rod", his support and orientation points, and begins to feel depressed and irritated, and starts to annoy other people, provoke them to quarrels, as if demanding that they would prove to him what they are capable of. The EIE respects strength and despises all weaklings and wimps; therefore he sufficiently quickly finds common language with the LSI, sensing in him a person and a partner who is worthy in every respect.

    Additionally, at this stage LSI's aspect of "sensing of sensations" (Si) gets turned on, which for the LSI is a demonstrative function that is realized unconsciously - and thus in correspondence to the changes in his moods. Thus, the LSI cannot always fully and consciously acknowledge why he suddenly wished to inflict pain and what motivated him to do this, since this wish arises in him almost instinctively and sufficiently often, at the signs of slightest irritation. Then, later, the LSI can come up with a logical basis for his actions and explain that he did this for educational purposes. If the LSI feels that he has overdone it with his volitional sensing methods, he will certainly try to find a way to make up for this and diminish his fault by a kind act.

    Etc etc, Strat description
    She's talking about society and systems, not about going out and socializing every weekend with friends. Very different things. It's more like having a role, a part to play, and knowing where you stand, not chit-chatting and showing off your car. . .


    --
    I also think Strat has some very odd views in general including her belief that all SEEs will cheat on their partners and steal other people's spouses and that all betas are so instinct, but the quality of her descriptions is a separate issue. Even with her biased viewpoint, she's not saying what you think she's saying.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    She's talking about society and systems, not about going out and socializing every weekend with friends. Very different things. It's more like having a role, a part to play, and knowing where you stand, not chit-chatting and showing off your car. . .


    --
    I also think Strat has some very odd views in general including her belief that all SEEs will cheat on their partners and steal other people's spouses and that all betas are so instinct, but the quality of her descriptions is a separate issue. Even with her biased viewpoint, she's not saying what you think she's saying.
    Any phenomenon is viewed by him as part of certain existing system, that is regulated by certain patters and laws and a certain logical order, understanding which the LSI considers to be his obligation.

    Perceiving his surrounding reality from the point of view of its systematization, logical design, and coherence, the ISTj is constantly analyzing the systems existing around himself - the system of logical and ethical interrelations, the systems of social structures, the system of views and opinions, the systems of life values.
    Exactly. She means what she means and words means what words means not what you would like it to say, subjectively.

    So I don't know what kind of interpretation you could give to these words.

    I should suppose that any phenomenon means to you "some phenomena" and it means that socialization is excluded by fact. Ok.

    In other words, LSIs value social systems and systematization of their surrounding reality, but dont value what society values, like for example, having a decent social life or having a nice car. Ok.

    The systematization of their surroundings can't include systematized friendships and acquaintances either. Ok.

    The social life of ppl doesnt make them know what role they play in society as a system or in micro systems (like school,work or groups etc). I don't know why you associate chit chat with friendships or anything either, btw.

    And finally you are right. Strat can be very impartial sometimes, especially in the relations descriptions. However, in terms of describing types behavior its pretty valuable.
    Last edited by Hope; 11-29-2017 at 09:58 PM.

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    It's translated from Russian to English which isn't your first language and you're misunderstanding what is being said. I can certainly detail it out for you sentence by sentence and explain, but I've already done that before other places thoroughly. I don't want to do it all over again. You can look it up, or believe whatever you want to believe, it hardly matters either way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    It's translated from Russian to English which isn't your first language and you're misunderstanding what is being said. I can certainly detail it out for you sentence by sentence and explain, but I've already done that before other places thoroughly. I don't want to do it all over again. You can look it up, or believe whatever you want to believe, it hardly matters either way.

    I thought it matters since you considered it important enough to comment on it in the first place.
    Anyway, a link would be useful I suppose, if you have it correctly translated interpretated somewhere.
    Last edited by Hope; 11-30-2017 at 07:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup View Post
    I thought it matters since you considered it important enough to comment on it in the first place.
    Anyway, a link would be useful I suppose, if you have it correctly translated somewhere.
    It's correctly translated, you're just not correctly interpreting it. In other words, you're looking at it from the pov of "my brother is LSI and this is how he is, therefore this is what this means" rather than looking at it from the point of view of what it actually means and why this fits with the theory. That's why it doesn't matter, because it's not going to change how you see it. Your brother might not even be LSI, which is another thing you won't accept because tests. So, there's no point in me trying to explain. It'd be like me trying to explain to @Bertrand why his concept of Fe is wrong . . . completely pointless. It takes being willing to look at the whys of the theory and not just examples and stereotypes. And I just don't see that happening.

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    to understand why an interpretation is "correct" (i.e.: better than the alternatives), you have to understand all seriously competing interpretations [1], as well as make the case as to what standard, when they're collectively judged in light of, makes one better than the other. most people just assume every other interpretation than the only one they personally understand is wrong and simply go about forcefully trying to subordinate people to their own. these are the stalins and ******s of the world, Se>Ne approach to unification. its decidedly anti-jungian, so its always ironic to see it in action in re socionics. but this is precisely how most good ideas get subverted by totalitarian assholes. see for example the history of the church

    [1] you can't critique what you don't understand, you can only silence it through either direct physical elimination at the source of dissent (i.e.: the person) or by pushing them out of space in terms of Fe (mob mentality). this is the currency beta runs off of, and their legacy

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    It's correctly translated, you're just not correctly interpreting it. In other words, you're looking at it from the pov of "my brother is LSI and this is how he is, therefore this is what this means" rather than looking at it from the point of view of what it actually means and why this fits with the theory. That's why it doesn't matter, because it's not going to change how you see it. Your brother might not even be LSI, which is another thing you won't accept because tests. So, there's no point in me trying to explain. It'd be like me trying to explain to @Bertrand why his concept of Fe is wrong . . . completely pointless. It takes being willing to look at the whys of the theory and not just examples and stereotypes. And I just don't see that happening.
    In summary:
    a) No one (who's not russian) can interpret theory correctly because we are not russians, even if its correctly translated.

    b) The russian speakers (natives or whatever) who can interpret this correctly, won't do it because is pointless since the rest of us (pretty much everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion) are full of stereotypes and unwilling to look at theory.

    c) No one who hang out with some friends is likely to be LSI, even if s/he scores LSI.

    d) Anyone who doesnt agree with your opinion is able to type correctly others, even if its supported by tests (because, tests are wrong and people manipulate them - especially if they get consistent results, which is a clear sign of manipulation, lol-, pretty much just because some other people cant get consistent results over time).

    e) Is pointless trying to explain anything or support one's arguments with factual info, because others won't change, however, one should do a public manifestation of nonconformity anyway.


    And I wonder, where is the coherence or logic in this kind of posture?

    You seem to keep high standards for everybody else but not for yourself.

    So at least I hope you'll be able to respect your own policy in the future and stop initiating pointless debates or arguments of any kind with me.
    Last edited by Hope; 12-03-2017 at 01:33 AM.

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    Well, my dealing with ISTps are mainly from my marching band instructor, who was pretty much the greatest marching band instructor you could ever have. Actually I don't know, but he really made it seem like it. Taught me a bunch, like lead by example. Thing is, he was literally known as the greatest saxophone player in his band in high school. I'd believe it. Very idealistic, I'd think. Thing is, I can probably out think him. Like his way of doing things does work, but I remember in one example, I figured out like two alternative means of doing what he was doing, then figured out the problem in the time it took for him to do just the one. To be fair, I was very well experienced in the matter, and teaching this to me was like showing a millennial how to use an iPad. But yeah, he's up there on my most well respected role models. If I say anyone was an influence, it was him. He had everything, from unlimited positive regard, skill to lead by example. Not only knowing the concept, but having the ability to follow through. He's the person who taught me the term, lead by example. He taught me you only really know something if you can tell someone else, given adequate means of communication. He'd wreck me in a physical contest though. Like easy. I remember, he had a baton, and he was just flipping it. Like no problem. I did that, I'd end up hurting someone. To be fair, he did color guard for an off season, and I did not at all. Yeah, there are other things, but hey, enough about me. He probably has about equal praise for me as well, though, in hindsight. He has told me I'm spot on pitch wise, like not flat or sharp, on several occasions. I'd agree.

    I'd say probably no. From my dealings with LSI, I believe that they're the stereotypical eneagram 8 conqueror introvert type thing. Not sure, I've only met the one. Met plenty of INFps though, oddly enough. But yeah, I really doubt my marching band instructor would exude Se in any form. At all. Like he's more a behind the scenes type guy who purely shines through because of how much he goes out of his way to do his job. Like living in near poverty, traveling miles to get to work. On thanksgiving he goes to a football game and does the whole management type thing. Then he drives to Philadelphia. As a comparison, I'd be done after that performance, and about time to go hit the sack and do something self serving. I think I paint you a good picture. He'd probably say I'm giving him too much credit, but hey. It isn't just him though, he has help, of course. Can't manage 120ish kids alone.

    Anyways, as for LSI, I'd already gone over this before, which is why I'm going over SLI. I have more information on the SLI anyways.
    Last edited by Alomoes; 12-01-2017 at 06:26 PM.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

    An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.

    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko

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