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Thread: Does having high Fe automatically make you good with people?

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    Default Does having high Fe automatically make you good with people?

    Just something Ive been wondering for quite a while. Ive read descriptions for EXFjs and they all involve good social skills or inspiring people and being able to manipulate and control people. . So anyway... what is Fe really and do Fe ego types always have to have good people skills (not reading people per se but actually talking to them, keeping them interested, being able to inspire and energize people etc.) and how would a EXFj-irrational subtype affect their Fe? At this point I'm just sifting through the types and landed on ENFj this week (sigh self-typing is hard).

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    Fe people should be good at social situations because Fe gives them the ability to sense and manipulate the emotional atmosphere around them. Basically they should know what people want and find it easy to give to them. The truth however is that I've met quite a few socially awkward Fe egoes and it was really a pathetic look. Basically I'd say that it has to do a lot of the person's IQ, social experiences and looks (yeah, they actually really are important.)
    The other thing about Fe ego types is that if they don't get social appreciation and attention that they need, they tend to develop social anxieties and weird social habibts just to attrackt the attention of others.


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    Not necessary. But it help that you can express and make other people express and you ease the communication of feelings happen. So you can sense that other person feel joy or hate but you can not know other things i guess.

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    I think you should read what Jung has to say about Fe.


    4. The Extraverted Feeling-Type

    In so far as feeling is, incontestably, a more obvious peculiarity of feminine psychology than thinking, the most pronounced feeling-types are also to be found among women. When extraverted feeling possesses the priority we speak of an extraverted feeling-type. Examples of this type that I can call to mind are, almost without exception, women. She is a woman who follows the guiding-line of her feeling. As the result of education her feeling has become developed into an adjusted function, subject to conscious control. Except in extreme cases, feeling has a personal character, in spite of the fact that the subjective factor may be already, to a large extent, repressed. The personality appears to be adjusted in relation to objective conditions. Her feelings correspond with objective situations and general values. Nowhere is this more clearly revealed than in the so-called 'love-choice'; the 'suitable' man is loved, not another one; he is suitable not so much because he fully accords with the fundamental character of the woman -- as a rule she is quite uninformed about this -- but because [p. 449] he meticulously corresponds in standing, age, capacity, height, and family respectability with every reasonable requirement. Such a formulation might, of course, be easily rejected as ironical or depreciatory, were I not fully convinced that the love-feeling of this type of woman completely corresponds with her choice. It is genuine, and not merely intelligently manufactured. Such 'reasonable' marriages exist without number, and they are by no means the worst. Such women are good comrades to their husbands and excellent mothers, so long as husbands or children possess the conventional psychic constitution. One can feel 'correctly', however, only when feeling is disturbed by nothing else. But nothing disturbs feeling so much as thinking. It is at once intelligible, therefore, that this type should repress thinking as much as possible. This does not mean to say that such a woman does not think at all; on the contrary, she may even think a great deal and very ably, but her thinking is never sui generis; it is, in fact, an Epimethean appendage to her feeling. What she cannot feel, she cannot consciously think. 'But I can't think what I don't feel', such a type said to me once in indignant tones. As far as feeling permits, she can think very well, but every conclusion, however logical, that might lead to a disturbance of feeling is rejected from the outset. It is simply not thought. And thus everything that corresponds with objective valuations is good: these things are loved or treasured; the rest seems merely to exist in a world apart.

    But a change comes over the picture when the importance of the object reaches a still higher level. As already explained above, such an assimilation of subject to object then occurs as almost completely to engulf the subject of feeling. Feeling loses its personal character -- it becomes feeling per se; it almost seems as though the [p. 450] personality were wholly dissolved in the feeling of the moment. Now, since in actual life situations constantly and successively alternate, in which the feeling-tones released are not only different but are actually mutually contrasting, the personality inevitably becomes dissipated in just so many different feelings. Apparently, he is this one moment, and something completely different the next -- apparently, I repeat, for in reality such a manifold personality is altogether impossible. The basis of the ego always remains identical with itself, and, therefore, appears definitely opposed to the changing states of feeling. Accordingly the observer senses the display of feeling not so much as a personal expression of the feeling-subject as an alteration of his ego, a mood, in other words. Corresponding with the degree of dissociation between the ego and the momentary state of feeling, signs of disunion with the self will become more or less evident, i.e. the original compensatory attitude of the unconscious becomes a manifest opposition. This reveals itself, in the first instance, in extravagant demonstrations of feeling, in loud and obtrusive feeling predicates, which leave one, however, somewhat incredulous. They ring hollow; they are not convincing. On the contrary, they at once give one an inkling of a resistance that is being overcompensated, and one begins to wonder whether such a feeling-judgment might not just as well be entirely different. In fact, in a very short time it actually is different. Only a very slight alteration in the situation is needed to provoke forthwith an entirely contrary estimation of the selfsame object. The result of such an experience is that the observer is unable to take either judgment at all seriously. He begins to reserve his own opinion. But since, with this type, it is a matter of the greatest moment to establish an intensive feeling rapport with his environment, redoubled efforts are now required [p. 451] to overcome this reserve. Thus, in the manner of the circulus vitiosus, the situation goes from bad to worse. The more the feeling relation with the object becomes overstressed, the nearer the unconscious opposition approaches the surface.

    We have already seen that the extraverted feeling type, as a rule, represses his thinking, just because thinking is the function most liable to disturb feeling. Similarly, when thinking seeks to arrive at pure results of any kind, its first act is to exclude feeling, since nothing is calculated to harass and falsify thinking so much as feeling-values. Thinking, therefore, in so far as it is an independent function, is repressed in the extraverted feeling type. Its repression, as I observed before, is complete only in so far as its inexorable logic forces it to conclusions that are incompatible with feeling. It is suffered to exist as the servant of feeling, or more accurately its slave. Its backbone is broken; it may not operate on its own account, in accordance with its own laws, Now, since a logic exists producing inexorably right conclusions, this must happen somewhere, although beyond the bounds of consciousness, i.e. in the unconscious. Pre-eminently, therefore, the unconscious content of this type is a particular kind of thinking. It is an infantile, archaic, and negative thinking.

    So long as conscious feeling preserves the personal character, or, in other words, so long as the personality does not become swallowed up by successive states of feeling, this unconscious thinking remains compensatory. But as soon as the personality is dissociated, becoming dispersed in mutually contradictory states of feeling, the identity of the ego is lost, and the subject becomes unconscious. But, because of the subject's lapse into the unconscious, it becomes associated with the unconscious thinking -- function, therewith assisting the unconscious [p. 452] thought to occasional consciousness. The stronger the conscious feeling relation, and therefore, the more 'depersonalized,' it becomes, the stronger grows the unconscious opposition. This reveals itself in the fact that unconscious ideas centre round just the most valued objects, which are thus pitilessly stripped of their value. That thinking which always thinks in the 'nothing but' style is in its right place here, since it destroys the ascendancy of the feeling that is chained to the object.

    Unconscious thought reaches the surface in the form of irruptions, often of an obsessing nature, the general character of which is always negative and depreciatory. Women of this type have moments when the most hideous thoughts fasten upon the very objects most valued by their feelings. This negative thinking avails itself of every infantile prejudice or parallel that is calculated to breed doubt in the feeling-value, and it tows every primitive instinct along with it, in the effort to make 'a nothing but' interpretation of the feeling. At this point, it is perhaps in the nature of a side-remark to observe that the collective unconscious, i.e. the totality of the primordial images, also becomes enlisted in the same manner, and from the elaboration and development of these images there dawns the possibility of a regeneration of the attitude upon another basis.

    Hysteria, with the characteristic infantile sexuality of its unconscious world of ideas, is the principal form of neurosis with this type.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I think you should read what Jung has to say about Fe.


    4. The Extraverted Feeling-Type

    In so far as feeling is, incontestably, a more obvious peculiarity of feminine psychology than thinking, the most pronounced feeling-types are also to be found among women. When extraverted feeling possesses the priority we speak of an extraverted feeling-type. Examples of this type that I can call to mind are, almost without exception, women. She is a woman who follows the guiding-line of her feeling. As the result of education her feeling has become developed into an adjusted function, subject to conscious control. Except in extreme cases, feeling has a personal character, in spite of the fact that the subjective factor may be already, to a large extent, repressed. The personality appears to be adjusted in relation to objective conditions. Her feelings correspond with objective situations and general values. Nowhere is this more clearly revealed than in the so-called 'love-choice'; the 'suitable' man is loved, not another one; he is suitable not so much because he fully accords with the fundamental character of the woman -- as a rule she is quite uninformed about this -- but because [p. 449] he meticulously corresponds in standing, age, capacity, height, and family respectability with every reasonable requirement. Such a formulation might, of course, be easily rejected as ironical or depreciatory, were I not fully convinced that the love-feeling of this type of woman completely corresponds with her choice. It is genuine, and not merely intelligently manufactured. Such 'reasonable' marriages exist without number, and they are by no means the worst. Such women are good comrades to their husbands and excellent mothers, so long as husbands or children possess the conventional psychic constitution. One can feel 'correctly', however, only when feeling is disturbed by nothing else. But nothing disturbs feeling so much as thinking. It is at once intelligible, therefore, that this type should repress thinking as much as possible. This does not mean to say that such a woman does not think at all; on the contrary, she may even think a great deal and very ably, but her thinking is never sui generis; it is, in fact, an Epimethean appendage to her feeling. What she cannot feel, she cannot consciously think. 'But I can't think what I don't feel', such a type said to me once in indignant tones. As far as feeling permits, she can think very well, but every conclusion, however logical, that might lead to a disturbance of feeling is rejected from the outset. It is simply not thought. And thus everything that corresponds with objective valuations is good: these things are loved or treasured; the rest seems merely to exist in a world apart.

    But a change comes over the picture when the importance of the object reaches a still higher level. As already explained above, such an assimilation of subject to object then occurs as almost completely to engulf the subject of feeling. Feeling loses its personal character -- it becomes feeling per se; it almost seems as though the [p. 450] personality were wholly dissolved in the feeling of the moment. Now, since in actual life situations constantly and successively alternate, in which the feeling-tones released are not only different but are actually mutually contrasting, the personality inevitably becomes dissipated in just so many different feelings. Apparently, he is this one moment, and something completely different the next -- apparently, I repeat, for in reality such a manifold personality is altogether impossible. The basis of the ego always remains identical with itself, and, therefore, appears definitely opposed to the changing states of feeling. Accordingly the observer senses the display of feeling not so much as a personal expression of the feeling-subject as an alteration of his ego, a mood, in other words. Corresponding with the degree of dissociation between the ego and the momentary state of feeling, signs of disunion with the self will become more or less evident, i.e. the original compensatory attitude of the unconscious becomes a manifest opposition. This reveals itself, in the first instance, in extravagant demonstrations of feeling, in loud and obtrusive feeling predicates, which leave one, however, somewhat incredulous. They ring hollow; they are not convincing. On the contrary, they at once give one an inkling of a resistance that is being overcompensated, and one begins to wonder whether such a feeling-judgment might not just as well be entirely different. In fact, in a very short time it actually is different. Only a very slight alteration in the situation is needed to provoke forthwith an entirely contrary estimation of the selfsame object. The result of such an experience is that the observer is unable to take either judgment at all seriously. He begins to reserve his own opinion. But since, with this type, it is a matter of the greatest moment to establish an intensive feeling rapport with his environment, redoubled efforts are now required [p. 451] to overcome this reserve. Thus, in the manner of the circulus vitiosus, the situation goes from bad to worse. The more the feeling relation with the object becomes overstressed, the nearer the unconscious opposition approaches the surface.

    We have already seen that the extraverted feeling type, as a rule, represses his thinking, just because thinking is the function most liable to disturb feeling. Similarly, when thinking seeks to arrive at pure results of any kind, its first act is to exclude feeling, since nothing is calculated to harass and falsify thinking so much as feeling-values. Thinking, therefore, in so far as it is an independent function, is repressed in the extraverted feeling type. Its repression, as I observed before, is complete only in so far as its inexorable logic forces it to conclusions that are incompatible with feeling. It is suffered to exist as the servant of feeling, or more accurately its slave. Its backbone is broken; it may not operate on its own account, in accordance with its own laws, Now, since a logic exists producing inexorably right conclusions, this must happen somewhere, although beyond the bounds of consciousness, i.e. in the unconscious. Pre-eminently, therefore, the unconscious content of this type is a particular kind of thinking. It is an infantile, archaic, and negative thinking.

    So long as conscious feeling preserves the personal character, or, in other words, so long as the personality does not become swallowed up by successive states of feeling, this unconscious thinking remains compensatory. But as soon as the personality is dissociated, becoming dispersed in mutually contradictory states of feeling, the identity of the ego is lost, and the subject becomes unconscious. But, because of the subject's lapse into the unconscious, it becomes associated with the unconscious thinking -- function, therewith assisting the unconscious [p. 452] thought to occasional consciousness. The stronger the conscious feeling relation, and therefore, the more 'depersonalized,' it becomes, the stronger grows the unconscious opposition. This reveals itself in the fact that unconscious ideas centre round just the most valued objects, which are thus pitilessly stripped of their value. That thinking which always thinks in the 'nothing but' style is in its right place here, since it destroys the ascendancy of the feeling that is chained to the object.

    Unconscious thought reaches the surface in the form of irruptions, often of an obsessing nature, the general character of which is always negative and depreciatory. Women of this type have moments when the most hideous thoughts fasten upon the very objects most valued by their feelings. This negative thinking avails itself of every infantile prejudice or parallel that is calculated to breed doubt in the feeling-value, and it tows every primitive instinct along with it, in the effort to make 'a nothing but' interpretation of the feeling. At this point, it is perhaps in the nature of a side-remark to observe that the collective unconscious, i.e. the totality of the primordial images, also becomes enlisted in the same manner, and from the elaboration and development of these images there dawns the possibility of a regeneration of the attitude upon another basis.

    Hysteria, with the characteristic infantile sexuality of its unconscious world of ideas, is the principal form of neurosis with this type.
    Jung was a bit of a sexist

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    Jung was a bit of a sexist
    Why? Feeling is generelly more common in women. But as pure types I think men and women are equally common. But ESE and EIE are usually more purely expressed in women.

    Anyway, there is a lot to learn from this short article on Fe
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Why? Feeling is generelly more common in women. But as pure types I think men and women are equally common. But ESE and EIE are usually more purely expressed in women.

    Anyway, there is a lot to learn from this short article on Fe
    Tbh I do not even divide between the sexes when thinking of type. And that was the first he did when explaining Fe. And that is by definition sexist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    Tbh I do not even divide between the sexes when thinking of type. And that was the first he did when explaining Fe. And that is by definition sexist.
    who cares? He had noticed something. It is pretty easy to see even today that if you compare men and women that Feeling is better expressed in women. Take ESE men and women for example. But I wouldn't get hung up on this too much. I was just posting the article because it has some interesting points connected to the OP.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    who cares? He had noticed something. It is pretty easy to see even today that if you compare men and women that Feeling is better expressed in women. Take ESE men and women for example. But I wouldn't get hung up on this too much. I was just posting the article because it has some interesting points connected to the OP.
    I guess but, we know that jung had few faults. I bet he have real problems with those simple dichotomies like feeling vs thinking when typing people. Yet he is a true pioneer and we are spoiled by the peers before us. Thats just how these things works.

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    I believe that is probably the IM that likely rates the highest on the trait of Agreeableness. However, this is just a general trend.

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    generally, but not obligately. you study skills, strong functions help to study some of them only

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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Basically they should know what people want and find it easy to give to them.
    That's not Fe. Fe can easily tell whether someone like or disliked something. But knowing beforehand what someone wants will fall into a perception element. Most broadly speaking Si, if it's tangible, Ni if it's conceptual.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    Tbh I do not even divide between the sexes when thinking of type. And that was the first he did when explaining Fe. And that is by definition sexist.
    No, for something to be sexist, it has to have prejudice. Fact isn't prejudice.

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    exactly right; for Jung to say "extroverted ethics predominates in women" is just a fact, to say its associated with hysteria is also a fact (at worst it is a restatement of prejudice without endorsement one way or the other). To say "X is a woman therefore she is probably hysterical" is prejudice because it doesn't give the individual a fair shake, rather it presumes to know something about them that does not necessarily follow

    besides, how else was Jung supposed to express his idea? He had to speak in terms people could understand and hysteria was part of the parlance of the time and he was pointing to a pattern and trying to isolate the underlying mechanics; how else was he supposed to do this except to point it out in terms people recognized under the historical circumstances? Its easy to look back on it and regulate it for lack of political correctness, but such a concept did not even exist as we know it back then, it is a sheer impossibility to subject him to such a standard because it presumes he could do something about it... if he could not do feasibly otherwise, where is the moral bite to charges of "sexism" then? If there is no moral bite to it what is the point of such a charge..? if there is no point sexism loses all meaning other than it being shorthand for "we disprove of such language based on the present mores as applied to the past" which is an empty statement.. obviously, just like every other bad thing that has ever happened I categorically decry it as bad inasmuch as it is bad... to bring such a thing up is empty virtue signalling, which is itself an ironic demonstration of lack thereof

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Idiot View Post
    Just something Ive been wondering for quite a while. Ive read descriptions for EXFjs and they all involve good social skills or inspiring people and being able to manipulate and control people. . So anyway... what is Fe really and do Fe ego types always have to have good people skills (not reading people per se but actually talking to them, keeping them interested, being able to inspire and energize people etc.)
    "Always" is a strong word.

    In general Fe leading types will find it easy to navigate the "language" of social interaction, recognize how to have the emotional effect that they want, which can include inspiring/energizing, keeping people interested etc. But I have noticed that Beta NFs can often identify as being "socially awkward", I would attribute this to weak sensing which generally causes one to feel out of place or out of touch with the present moment.

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    Yeah…I suppose Jung wasn’t being sexist. But I simply don’t like sentences like that. I doubt facts like that are products of sexist, or animal nature? I think traits like that indicate human being isn’t so developed. And I prefer not emphasizing them by bring them up, especially when they are not important.

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    I wonder does Fe creative types less good with people by theory, consider people are equally developed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    I guess but, we know that jung had few faults. I bet he have real problems with those simple dichotomies like feeling vs thinking when typing people. Yet he is a true pioneer and we are spoiled by the peers before us. Thats just how these things works.
    Jung revised his ideas throughout his entire life. If he still lived today, I know he'd continue updating them since his inspiration in the first place is that he was terrified at all the atrocities of the 20th century, but how, I don't know. The types was actually one of his least-developed ideas and it never really got beyond a sketch, which is why so many other people have had to update it. It's based on type in biology, which would've meant something prototypical to Jung since he read a bunch of old German philosophers and scientists who used it that way. Don't even get me started on the origin of the idea of archetypes...

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    in other words, if you understand Jung, you know Jung was like the opposite of sexist

    if an ideology wants to paint him as sexist, too bad for that ideology

    (praise Ausra, etc)

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    Not really. I think they just feel people's empathy a lot. Like they're just more aware

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    No. It automatically makes you evil with ppl.
    Last edited by Hope; 10-07-2017 at 01:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    No, for something to be sexist, it has to have prejudice. Fact isn't prejudice.
    Well is not a fact really, you are women and thinker right. The split is probably more towards 50/50 than 100/0.

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    even if his statement was some kind of factual error it still doesn't rise to the level of sexism

    this reeks of Fe HA making a fool of itself

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    Yes, having Fe automatically make you good with people. If you're not good with people, you don't have Fe. That's just science.

    I don't know, I think Jung's observations are kind of crap. Recent research in brain science shows that we make unconscious decisions first, then come up with bogus conscious "explanations" (confabulations) later to make sense out of the whatever decision that we had made. We have no conscious access to the unconscious.

    The “Interpreter” in Your Head Spins Stories to Make Sense of the World, by Michael Gazzaniga

    We humans think we make all our decisions to act consciously and willfully. We all feel we are wonderfully unified, coherent mental machines and that our underlying brain structure must reflect this overpowering sense. It doesn’t. No command center keeps all other brain systems hopping to the instructions of a five-star general. The brain has millions of local processors making important decisions. There is no one boss in the brain. You are certainly not the boss of your brain. Have you ever succeeded in telling your brain to shut up already and go to sleep?

    In truth, when we set out to explain our actions, they are all post hoc explanations using post hoc observations with no access to nonconscious processing. Not only that, our left brain fudges things a bit to fit into a makes-sense story. Explanations are all based on what makes it into our consciousness, but actions and the feelings happen before we are consciously aware of them—and most of them are the results of nonconscious processes, which will never make it into the explanations. The reality is, listening to people’s explanations of their actions is interesting—and in the case of politicians, entertaining—but often a waste of time.

    So, we may not have even felt a certain feeling in actuality, but we thought that we had felt a certain way, such as being sad or happy. The brain is making these things up all the time. You think that you are smiling because something had made you happy, but in actuality you are happy because you are smiling. Strange but true.

    We called this left-hemisphere process the interpreter. It is the left hemisphere that engages in the human tendency to find order in chaos, that tries to fit everything into a story and put it into a context. It seems driven to hypothesize about the structure of the world even in the face of evidence that no pattern exists.

    What does it mean that we build our theories about ourselves after the fact? How much of the time are we confabulating, giving a fictitious account of a past event, believing it to be true? When thinking about these big questions, one must always remember that all these modules are mental systems selected for over the course of evolution. The individuals who possessed them made choices that resulted in survival and reproduction. They became our ancestors.

    No doubt that Jung himself was confabulating and trying to make sense out of his observations, because he didn't bother to actually test out his hypothesis. Gathering information via talking to his patients is kind of pointless, since even the patients could simply be making things up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Yes, having Fe automatically make you good with people. If you're not good with people, you don't have Fe. That's just science.

    I don't know, I think Jung's observations are kind of crap. Recent research in brain science shows that we make unconscious decisions first, then come up with bogus conscious "explanations" (confabulations) later to make sense out of the whatever decision that we had made. We have no conscious access to the unconscious.

    The “Interpreter” in Your Head Spins Stories to Make Sense of the World, by Michael Gazzaniga


    So, we may not have even felt a certain feeling in actuality, but we thought that we had felt a certain way, such as being sad or happy. The brain is making these things up all the time. You think that you are smiling because something had made you happy, but in actuality you are happy because you are smiling. Strange but true.

    No doubt that Jung himself was confabulating and trying to make sense out of his observations, because he didn't bother to actually test out his hypothesis. Gathering information via talking to his patients is kind of pointless, since even the patients could simply be making things up.
    Michael Gazzaniga made all that up to make sense of the world.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    No, he has actually performed tests to prove his hypothesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Feeling is generelly more common in women. But as pure types I think men and women are equally common. But ESE and EIE are usually more purely expressed in women.
    From a biological and social point of view it makes a lot of sense that women value Fe more, because they give birth to children and spend the a lot of time with nurturing them. The ability to adapt to the needs of young children is a valuable character trait – because humans are nearly helpless dependent on other people in the first three years of their lifes.

    I only can provide a link to MBTI statistics but the (gender relevant) distribution of thinkers and feelers should be comparable to socionics.
    In short: Male - T 2/3, F 1/3, Female - T 1/3, F 2/3
    https://www.capt.org/mbti-assessment/estimated-frequencies.htm?bhjs=0

    Last edited by WinnieW; 10-07-2017 at 12:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    From a biological and social point of view it makes a lot of sense that women value Fe more, because they give birth to children and spend the a lot of time with nurturing them. The ability to adapt to the needs of young children is a valuable character trait – because humans are nearly helpless dependent on other people in the first three years of their lifes.

    I only can provide a link to MBTI statistics but the (gender relevant) distribution of thinkers and feelers should be comparable to socionics.
    https://www.capt.org/mbti-assessment/estimated-frequencies.htm?bhjs=0

    In short: Male - T 2/3, F 1/3, Female - T 1/3, F 2/3
    Yes, of course. nurturing children, but also social bonding in the group. Men tend to be more of lonely wolfs, generally speaking.

    My guess is that the types could be about equally distributed but men are mistyped as thinkers because of less developed feeling (although feeling type). And vice versa.

    This happens easily since MBTI relies on tests.

    But it is also possible that feeling type is actually more common in women.

    Base feeling gets more developed and differentiated in women. It becomes more advanced and "refined". Men of the same type will do it less.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Hormonal dispositions.
    Then there is this:
    Oxytocin is found to make women friendly but men more competitive
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...mpetitive.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    Well is not a fact really, you are women and thinker right. The split is probably more towards 50/50 than 100/0.
    Not 50/50, and this is a fact actually.

    It's not 100/0, of course no one said that.

    Jung didn't say 100/0 either but he didn't provide an estimate that would be near precise at all, sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    Don't even get me started on the origin of the idea of archetypes...
    Start on it!

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    That's not what confabulation means.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Yes, having Fe automatically make you good with people. If you're not good with people, you don't have Fe. That's just science.

    I don't know, I think Jung's observations are kind of crap. Recent research in brain science shows that we make unconscious decisions first, then come up with bogus conscious "explanations" (confabulations) later to make sense out of the whatever decision that we had made. We have no conscious access to the unconscious.

    The “Interpreter” in Your Head Spins Stories to Make Sense of the World, by Michael Gazzaniga
    I don't think we make all decisions consciously. Some yes some no. Not all of them are confabulations tho'. Just like not all actions are immediately initiated either by the unconscious processing. Some yes, some not. There is a role for the conscious executive functioning too for cases where it's relevant.

    So. Let's not get to the other end of the pendulum - first believing that everything is conscious then believing everything is unconscious.

    Skimming the article, it doesn't actually say what you are claiming here, either.


    So, we may not have even felt a certain feeling in actuality, but we thought that we had felt a certain way, such as being sad or happy. The brain is making these things up all the time. You think that you are smiling because something had made you happy, but in actuality you are happy because you are smiling. Strange but true.
    No, that's a bad oversimplification.


    No doubt that Jung himself was confabulating and trying to make sense out of his observations, because he didn't bother to actually test out his hypothesis. Gathering information via talking to his patients is kind of pointless, since even the patients could simply be making things up.


    That's a bit too quick jumping to conclusions without much evidence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    No, he has actually performed tests to prove his hypothesis.
    And he probably neglected a few confounding background variables.

    Just using the same kind of reasoning you used for Jung.

    PS: Not saying Jung was infallible or whatever, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Idiot View Post
    Just something Ive been wondering for quite a while. Ive read descriptions for EXFjs and they all involve good social skills or inspiring people and being able to manipulate and control people. . So anyway... what is Fe really and do Fe ego types always have to have good people skills (not reading people per se but actually talking to them, keeping them interested, being able to inspire and energize people etc.) and how would a EXFj-irrational subtype affect their Fe? At this point I'm just sifting through the types and landed on ENFj this week (sigh self-typing is hard).
    I can't imagine that Fe dominant types would be bad with people, but Fe secondary types can be bad with people. That doesn't mean Fe dominant types don't experience conflict with a lot of people, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    That's not what confabulation means.
    Yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I don't think we make all decisions consciously. Some yes some no. Not all of them are confabulations tho'. Just like not all actions are immediately initiated either by the unconscious processing. Some yes, some not. There is a role for the conscious executive functioning too for cases where it's relevant.

    So. Let's not get to the other end of the pendulum - first believing that everything is conscious then believing everything is unconscious.

    Skimming the article, it doesn't actually say what you are claiming here, either.

    No, that's a bad oversimplification.


    That's a bit too quick jumping to conclusions without much evidence.


    And he probably neglected a few confounding background variables.

    Just using the same kind of reasoning you used for Jung.

    PS: Not saying Jung was infallible or whatever, either.


    I skimmed other articles from the same blog and for me it definitely biased my perception against the information posted to it. It was off-putting. My impression is that the blog seems to be the postings of a guy who feels powerless, on various levels, searching for meaning and leaning toward, it is all an illusion, nothing is real, no free will, etc... philosophy on life so he posts articles of others who support his worldview or at least parts that agree with his worldview. Which is also what Singu is doing by posting it in this thread. Lots of us do this so it is not really a big deal except by his argument he is confabulating anyway so what is the point of giving his own spin on things and singling out Jung. Singu doesn't even try to hide his contempt to sound less biased.

    Anyway, there is always more to the story.


    For neurologists, a potential source of understanding of false memories is confabulation from brain disease. Confabulations are false statements without a conscious effort to deceive occurring in clear consciousness in association with neurological disease [9]. They are “honest lying” as confabulators are unaware of the falsehood of their statements. The most common confabulations are provoked or momentary, simple, or minor errors in content or temporal order often elicited by questions about the past [911]. Other, uncommon confabulations are spontaneous, fantastic, grandiose, bizarre, or patently impossible statements [11,12]. Neurological causes of confabulations include Wernicke–Korsakoff’s syndrome, ruptured communicating artery aneurysms especially anterior, strategic diencephalic strokes, traumatic brain injury, herpes and other encephalitides, nicotinic acid deficiency, multiple sclerosis with frontal and parietal lesions, hypoxic-ischemic injury such as from attempted hanging, normal pressure hydrocephalus, and frontotemporal dementia.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3143501/

    The article is not anything new to me but the presentation seems off when it strays from the science into personal opinion which is what the article and book seem to do. I would have to read the whole book to get the full idea so I took the time to read some reviews. I remember this guy btw. I saw him on "Through the Wormhole". I think that is what the series was called.

    Singu's interpretation is biased due to his own conflicted feelings about typology.

    You can see reviews of the book on amazon. I would skip the 5 star ones and maybe some 1 star.

    https://www.amazon.com/Whos-Charge-F...rb_top?ie=UTF8

    In his latest book, Who’s In Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain, based on his 2009 Gifford Lectures, Michael Gazzaniga reviews the extraordinary discoveries of neuroscience that explain the mind as something embodied in the brain, but also as software to the brain’s hardware, a kind of abstract non-physical information that is nevertheless capable of exerting “downward causation” on the physical world. We live in a determined universe, he says, and the mind is not free from the causal laws of nature. But he finds the kind of freedom needed for moral responsibility is not some indeterminism inside the brain but in our social interactions.

    Gazzaniga’s clear prose style and frequent humor make for easy reading, but a fuller understanding of the neuroscience requires more than just text. The book has only one illustration. It needs many more to explain Gazzaniga’s split-brain experiments. Fortunately, you can find these online at Harvard University, where in April, 2010 Gazzaniga gave a series of two-hour lectures for the Mind-Brain-Behavior Initiative.

    Gazzaniga’s research found that the right hemisphere of the brain is poor at making inferences, similar to the whole brain of children younger than four years and the primates. On the other side, the developed human left hemisphere excels at inferences, constantly searching for patterns that can “make sense” of what is going on, bringing order out of chaos, and giving us answers to “why?” questions by discovering causes behind phenomena. Gazzaniga calls this our “Interpreter Module,” which “continually explains the world using the inputs it has from the current cognitive state and cues from the surroundings.” This ability to articulate stories that explains what is going on Gazzaniga describes as a “phase shift” between humans and other animals.

    In his split-brain studies, Gazzaniga showed that the right brain is “conscious” of things going on in the left visual field. Consciousness is thus a local phenomenon, he says, indeed happening in many places, but the Interpreter is only conscious of the information that it receives. A lesion somewhere along the optic nerve or in the primary visual cortex leaves the patient “conscious” of a blind spot. A lesion in the visual associative cortex, however, leaves the patient unconscious of the blind spot. Consciousness is then the result of a constellation of local processes, information from which must reach the Interpreter in the left brain if it is show up in the narrative the Interpreter is generating.

    William James said that we focus our attention on one of the myriad of sensations in the “blooming, buzzing confusion” of our unconscious, and this one sensation or thought bubbles up into our “stream of consciousness.” In Bernard Baars’ Global Workspace Theory, there is an executive function on the stage in a “Theater of Consciousness” selectively paying attention to untold numbers of audience members shouting to be heard. Michael Gazzaniga has developed neurophysical evidence for these profound ideas.

    Gazzaniga found that his Interpreter can go overboard in its attempts to find patterns and causes. Trying to bring order out of chaos, it continues to search for a pattern where none exist. When presented with lights flashing 80 percent of the time above a line and 20 percent below, animals (and our right brains) will maximize their outcomes by always guessing above the line. But the Interpreter does “frequency matching,” guessing above 80 percent and below 20 percent of the time, for a 64 percent success rate. This obviously non-adaptive behavior evolved, says Gazzaniga, because it made our species more tenacious and more successful at developing theories about how the world works.

    This discovery may explain the tendency of many scientists and most philosophers to explain away randomness as a positive contributing factor in the workings of the mind. William James said that both soft and hard determinists (like Gazzaniga) have an “antipathy to chance.”

    “Physical laws govern the physical world. We are part of the physical world. Therefore, there are physical laws that govern our behavior. Determinism reigns. Einstein and Spinoza bought it. Who are we to question it?,” asks Gazzaniga. His answer? All the spectacular advances in science leave him with what he calls “one unshakeable fact. We are personally responsible agents and are to be held accountable for our actions, even though we live in a determined universe.” [His italics].

    Gazzaniga knows that quantum physics introduces some irreducible indeterminism at the atomic and molecular level. This means you are free to choose Boston cream pie over berries for dessert, he says, and the choice was not determined at the very instant of the big bang. But he doubts whether quantum events in the brain help to make the choice free. “What on earth do humans want to be free from?,” he asks, “Indeed, what does free will even mean? However actions are caused, we want them to be carried out with accuracy, consistency, and purpose. When we reach for a glass of water, we don’t want our hand suddenly rubbing our eye.“ The short answer is that we do not want our actions to be predetermined, (by genetic factors) from the remote past before we were born, or (by environmental factors) from our life experiences, or (by causal chains) from the physical conditions that exist immediately before we deliberate about our decisions.

    And moreover, as Gazzaniga says, we want our actions to be caused (determined) by our purposes and motives, our desires and feelings. Can we have it both ways? Yes, if the causality involved is only statistical, if the determinism is only adequate to explain the regularity of macroscopic physical laws. Quantum physics corresponds perfectly to classical physics in the limit of large numbers of atoms, and in the limit of large quantum numbers. In my two-stage model of free will, a limited indeterminism in the first stage can generate creative new ideas for consideration by an adequately determined second stage making the decision. The model is analogous to biological evolution, where microscopic stochasticity generating mutations in the gene pool is a creative force. This is the first step in a two-step process, as Ernst Mayr described it. The macroscopic second step of natural selection is an adequately determined process.

    How does Gazzaniga defend the philosophically difficult proposition that immaterial ideas in an emergent mind can constrain the physical world? Can he solve the great problem of mind-body dualism? In his Gifford lectures, Gazzaniga proposes something analogous to the controversial Baldwin effect in evolutionary theory, the notion that learned behaviors transmitted culturally can so modify the environment that selection pressures now favor random mutations that have more reproductive success in the now changed environment. This creates a feedback loop called genetic assimilation when the new environment gets reflected in the genes, or niche construction when humans adapt the environment (as opposed to animals, who adapt to the environment). Gazzaniga proposes a similar feedback process in the mind-brain, where top-level mental ideas exert “downward causation” on the brain, biasing its decisions that are being made from the bottom (the neurons) up. Terrence Deacon makes similar arguments, the mind puts constraints on the physical world to further its goals. These two thinkers are onto something very important, in my opinion.

    Finally, Gazzaniga thinks he has solved the problem of free will by noting that moral responsibility is not something that is created in brains, but in social interactions. He is right, of course. Morality is primarily a social and cultural question, despite many studies finding altruistic behavior in some animals. For decades, compatibilist philosophers have tried to identify free will with moral responsibility. That the two issues are connected historically is undeniable, but I disagree that “social interactions make us free to choose,” as Gazzaniga claims. The question of whether deterministic physical laws pre-determine all our actions is a physical and biological question. We may not have metaphysical free will, but we do have a biophysical free will. As William James insisted, some irreducible ontological chance must be part of the solution.


    http://www.informationphilosopher.co...sts/gazzaniga/
    I don't know, I think Jung's observations are kind of crap. Recent research in brain science shows that we make unconscious decisions first, then come up with bogus conscious "explanations" (confabulations) later to make sense out of the whatever decision that we had made. We have no conscious access to the unconscious.
    Is this an example of a bogus conscious explanation of how you interpreted the article? Serious question.

    No, he has actually performed tests to prove his hypothesis.
    @Singu

    The article was full of personal beliefs and opinions so I am curious what you are asserting has been proven other than his valid brain research on split-minds. That not all processes are conscious or that perception is an illusion that can only be explained through confabulation. I am not sure what your purpose in posting this to this thread was. It kind of says nothing about Jung other than you think he is bogus but the article doesn't even support that.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I don't think we make all decisions consciously. Some yes some no. Not all of them are confabulations tho'. Just like not all actions are immediately initiated either by the unconscious processing. Some yes, some not. There is a role for the conscious executive functioning too for cases where it's relevant.

    So. Let's not get to the other end of the pendulum - first believing that everything is conscious then believing everything is unconscious.
    The point is that we now know that we tend to make things up and "confabulate" all the time, that's what the left brain's "interpreter" does. Until that is, when we are contradicted by outsiders or when we're faced with overwhelming facts and evidence right in front of us, unless of course we are completely obsessed and crazy enough to keep discarding any facts that contradict us to prove that we are always right and never wrong. It's just very difficult to "objectify" our thoughts unless we somehow test them out or attempt to objectify our information.

    The frustrating thing about Jung/Socionics etc. is that it's not a system based on direct evidence or experiments. It seems to me that people just keep nudging things when the system is contradicted, like - "Oh, perhaps this is not type/Socionics-related..." "Perhaps this person has a strong HA function..." "Perhaps this is due to his/her upbringing..." and even more incredulous ones, like "Science isn't everything!". That to me, seems like the very "confabulation" to keep explaining things away to fit the narrative that the system is correct, or in psychology's term, "cognitive biases".

    So yes, like with anything, it could be partially correct (even Freud was partially right). But I don't think "partially right" is good enough when we make sweeping conclusions like the supposed structure of the brain or how relations are completely predictable. That is... we pretend that this whole thing is "science". There's not much evidence so I don't think there's much reason to believe in it.

    Also to me, it seems like people try to fit random observations and patterns to Socionics, because that's what they know and have studied. It's because they know Fe, Fi, Te, Ti, Alpha, Beta, etc... so they try to fit things to those knowledge, even if they are kind of meaningless. The left brain's "interpreter" tries to make a coherent story based on what it knows, and nothing more. It doesn't even have to consider any facts, it just has to convince the brain that what it's saying is right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    No, he has actually performed tests to prove his hypothesis.
    Did those tests and that hypothesis exist before he made them up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    The left brain's "interpreter" tries to make a coherent story based on what it knows, and nothing more.I
    What if I told you that's the secret to the Universe? I shouldn't, so I won't, but what if?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Start on it!
    OK then.

    In the 18th and 19th centuries, everyone was doing biological typology and the biological types were based on the idea of things being typical vs. atypical. It actually started off with Goethe looking for an archetypal plant, then he realized that was a concept and not an actual thing and just turned it into some concept of deriving a plant from the leaf. Sound familiar yet? The idea of an archetype was something that marked the limits of perception. The idea of archetypes as coming before wasn't metaphorical either, because the whole idea (and it applied to rocks, light, and a lot of other things) was that archetypes were causal somehow, within nature, not some Platonic thing outside of nature. All these guys were into Spinoza even if they also had their own take on things. So all the different kinds of trees actually came from an archetypal tree over time etc. but that was also just sort of a concept since no one could go back in time and see that tree.

    And anyone who's read enough about Jung or just read certain works of his knows that he literally attributed archetypes as being within human biology, just sort of worn into the body (nervous system?) over aeons through repetition of acting out the patterns, not Platonic ideals. That's actually pretty "Ni," dynamic, focused on what's occuring in time. Jung originally studied to be an archeologist and that's why it's called "depth psychology" - literally looking within depths like you'd take things out of the earth, not because it's 3deep5freud. His ideas are way easier to understand if you know where he pirated them from. Hint: it's the Mostly German Philosophers he used as his prototypes in "psychological types."

    And that's why of course those prototypes are going to seem "off" when he types them by modern American standards since the criteria were largely things people can't relate to now, like Schopenhauer being known for being the world's most pessimistic philosopher, but he's pretty much responsible for modern color theories since he applied Kant to Goethe's theory and that has nothing to do with what he's known for yet is pretty significant (he's also responsible for translating dukkha from Buddhism as suffering and that's another thing too). It's also why it's really not sexist to say that most N and F types were women and most S and T types were men, since he's literally conceptualizing people's types as being caused by their environments and not as these Platonic ideals (but the descriptions of pathologies, being inherently value-judgments, are easy to argue for their sexism depending on other factors). He probably changed his self-typing because he saw types as actually changing to be honest.

  40. #40
    Melodies from Mars~
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    none of this matters really

    what's the point of saying "all Fe types are good with people" anyways?

    It's not like this would be useful for typing anyone.

    What i'm trying to say here is that I have no idea what to say.
    Last edited by chrys; 10-08-2017 at 05:27 AM.


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