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Thread: Missing the criteria in Gamma

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    Default Missing the criteria in Gamma

    Fully aware there's off chance this might relate to other than socionics, but:

    Criteria seems to be a Ti / Fe thing. They are likely suggested in Alpha and become more concrete in Beta. I've had the recent experiences of job interviews.

    What I'd do is i assess the job then, once i've ascertained i fulfill the criteria i go ahead and apply. Sure enough an interview follows but with Ti/Fe people i seem to do poorly.

    That is once the interview is a fact i no longer worry about the criteria, i assume that is a phase that's passed pre-interview and i'd be eager to turn a page on the deeper or the nitty gritty. Yet some Ti / Fe people don't seem to turn a page at all: they are still on page 1 of the book assessing for criteria.

    Have you had this experience of missing the criteria at a particular step of the process? ( i lean a bit on process) Like somewhere you'd drawn the line that you don't need to deal with it anymore and been surprised if it's come back to you in another form? Is it common in gamma?

    My guess is i'm expecting something dynamic, like Te, instead i'd get static Ti....
    Last edited by Delilah; 09-10-2017 at 09:11 PM.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Fully aware there's off chance this might relate to other than socionics, but:

    Criteria seems to be a Ti / Fe thing. They are likely suggested in Alpha and become more concrete in Beta. I've had the recent experiences of job interviews.

    What I'd do is i assess the job then, once i've ascertained i fulfill the criteria i go ahead and apply. Sure enough an interview follows but with Ti/Fe people i seem to do poorly.

    That is once the interview is a fact i no longer worry about the criteria, i assume that is a phase that's passed pre-interview and i'd be eager to turn a page on the deeper or the nitty gritty. Yet some Ti / Fe people don't seem to turn a page at all: they are still on page 1 of the book assessing for criteria.

    Have you had this experience of missing the criteria at a particular step of the process? ( i lean a bit on process) Like somewhere you'd drawn the line that you don't need to deal with it anymore and been surprised if it's come back to you in another form? Is it common in gamma?

    My guess is i'm expecting something dynamic, like Te, instead i'd get static Ti....
    So, in my considerable experience of applying for jobs (or work of any sort), I have found that there are two general approaches to interviews that companies use. The two approaches may very well be defined by your distinctions between Ti/Fe and Te/Fi. I've never thought about that before, but it might well be true.

    In any case, the first type of job interview (probably the Te/Fi type) is one where you apply and they basically assume that whatever experience you have is not relevant to what they want you to do, and they will have to train you, but are you insane or a trouble-maker? Because one insane troublemaker can disrupt the entire company, and hiring one is a disaster. So in these interviews, the interviewer basically lets you talk about anything you want, ostensibly your work experience but they don't really care about that, what they want to know is Are you nuts?. Will hiring you bring down the entire company for a time until they can safely get you the hell out of there, legally? These interviews go pretty quickly, with the hiring decisions typically made on the spot, once the interviewer decides they like you and would trust you with possession of their dog for a day or so.

    The second type of interview is one I associate with a large, complex organization, and might be more Ti/Fe. In this interview, you are asked specific questions about how you would do the job, again and again, until you answer incorrectly. This may take several days and involve meeting many layers of "management", but the goal is to pretend to interview you (that's why they were hired, after all) but to make the safest of all possible hiring decisions, which turns out to be, not to hire you at all. Because if they hire you and you turn out to increase the company's bottom line by 200%, the interviewer gets an email thanking them. If you turn out to wreck the company or step on some important person's toes, the question is asked of the interviewer as to why they didn't catch you before you were hired, and maybe someone else should be doing that interviewing job.

    Either one of the two approaches is inherent in a company's culture, and you can't change it. I, personally, hated working for companies of the second sort, and therefore if the interviewing process takes too long or involves too many self-important assholes or too many minute questions, I simply back out and try a different company. I'm interviewing them, too, you see.

    One of the best companies I ever worked for hired me (at an extremely high pay rate) after a ten minute phone interview, and their ad specifically said they were not looking for a person like myself. But I knew they should be, so I called them.

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    IME there are other examples that can be used, like science for instance; it just so happens that i decided to use my most recent experience as example. Anyhow, i just want to make sure the topic is wide open so felt the need of saying this.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    So, in my considerable experience of applying for jobs (or work of any sort), I have found that there are two general approaches to interviews that companies use. The two approaches may very well be defined by your distinctions between Ti/Fe and Te/Fi. I've never thought about that before, but it might well be true.

    In any case, the first type of job interview (probably the Te/Fi type) is one where you apply and they basically assume that whatever experience you have is not relevant to what they want you to do, and they will have to train you, but are you insane or a trouble-maker? Because one insane troublemaker can disrupt the entire company, and hiring one is a disaster. So in these interviews, the interviewer basically lets you talk about anything you want, ostensibly your work experience but they don't really care about that, what they want to know is Are you nuts?. Will hiring you bring down the entire company for a time until they can safely get you the hell out of there, legally? These interviews go pretty quickly, with the hiring decisions typically made on the spot, once the interviewer decides they like you and would trust you with possession of their dog for a day or so.

    The second type of interview is one I associate with a large, complex organization, and might be more Ti/Fe. In this interview, you are asked specific questions about how you would do the job, again and again, until you answer incorrectly. This may take several days and involve meeting many layers of "management", but the goal is to pretend to interview you (that's why they were hired, after all) but to make the safest of all possible hiring decisions, which turns out to be, not to hire you at all. Because if they hire you and you turn out to increase the company's bottom line by 200%, the interviewer gets an email thanking them. If you turn out to wreck the company or step on some important person's toes, the question is asked of the interviewer as to why they didn't catch you before you were hired, and maybe someone else should be doing that interviewing job.

    Either one of the two approaches is inherent in a company's culture, and you can't change it. I, personally, hated working for companies of the second sort, and therefore if the interviewing process takes too long or involves too many self-important assholes or too many minute questions, I simply back out and try a different company. I'm interviewing them, too, you see.

    One of the best companies I ever worked for hired me (at an extremely high pay rate) after a ten minute phone interview, and their ad specifically said they were not looking for a person like myself. But I knew they should be, so I called them.
    The bolded seems a bit off for Te ime; like Te should place value on facts (aka an accomplished event, or process are facts after all )
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    The bolded seems a bit off for Te ime; like Te should place value on facts (aka an accomplished event, or process are facts after all )
    The difference between Te and Ti is that Te doesn't need all the facts to make a decision. A Ti chemist might be reluctant to accept the organization of the Periodic Table if a few elements were missing, but a Te type will say, Look, if I drop this sodium metal in water, is it going to explode? Most of the time? That's all I need to know.

    Now, having said that, I know that LIE's are terrible interviewers, since we tend to assume that any person can do any job, and that is usually not the case. But no one can know everything about another human being, and so, at some point, you have to make a decision and hope you can correct it if things start to go off the rails. I basically make those decisions based on whether or not I think a person has the inclination and potential for wrecking the place, and I like to work for people who feel similarly.
    I tend to disregard formal "proofs" of qualifications, because they can be handed out like napkins at a fast food restaurant. I tend to go much more by how a person "feels" to me. Assuming, of course, they can do the basic job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The difference between Te and Ti is that Te doesn't need all the facts to make a decision. A Ti chemist might be reluctant to accept the organization of the Periodic Table if a few elements were missing, but a Te type will say, Look, if I drop this sodium metal in water, is it going to explode? Most of the time? That's all I need to know.

    Now, having said that, I know that LIE's are terrible interviewers, since we tend to assume that any person can do any job, and that is usually not the case. But no one can know everything about another human being, and so, at some point, you have to make a decision and hope you can correct it if things start to go off the rails. I basically make those decisions based on whether or not I think a person has the inclination and potential for wrecking the place, and I like to work for people who feel similarly.
    I tend to disregard formal "proofs" of qualifications, because they can be handed out like napkins at a fast food restaurant. I tend to go much more by how a person "feels" to me. Assuming, of course, they can do the basic job.
    We're talking about 2 different things though. When i say Te cares about facts i mean it should care about an experience that i've did done: instance, worked at X company doing Y and might even have some numbers on it. You're talking about qualifications which is more like a say college degree, or First Aid certificate or some such. Lol Adam how can you miss this?
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    I'd like to have a longer comment.

    If the OP is true and the premise is correct, it is kind of a relief to hear. It means if I'm getting into a place run by gammas, then I don't need to worry as my credentials and qualifications have already done the speaking for me. Having to prove yourself in a interview sucks. :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    I'd like to have a longer comment.

    If the OP is true and the premise is correct, it is kind of a relief to hear. It means if I'm getting into a place run by gammas, then I don't need to worry as my credentials and qualifications have already done the speaking for me. Having to prove yourself in a interview sucks. :/
    Well what do you suggest to my question? Like my experience has been that i take certain things for granted and other things not. I assume the base criteria up to a certain extend of course, not completely. Or are you addressing Adam? Do you actually care to know whether I place importance on qualifications that Adam said don't matter to him and do you have any examples of your own?
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    However, this only judging people by virtue of their past experiences, qualifications, and "abilities" stated, can actually become very claustrophobic in a delta ST workplace. For instance, I might hear from delta ST coworkers and supervisors "You said you had done it before so you must be a professional and you must be familiar with the Te of the situation already." Small example could be "Well I have driven with a trailer before, but that doesn't make a professional when it comes to this BRAND new trailer I've never used that you now want me to drive." It's very Se devaluing imo. It plays over the current moment situation and relies on former credentials in a way that I personally find annoying. I might think "who cares if I haven't done it before, I can do it now, if you show me how." Whereas an LSE might become stressed by such adhoc approach to the situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Well what do you suggest to my question? Like my experience has been that i take certain things for granted and other things not. I assume the base criteria up to a certain extend of course, not completely. Or are you addressing Adam? Do you actually care to know whether I place importance on qualifications that Adam said don't matter to him and do you have any examples of your own?
    I was talking to you.

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    With betas, there is more reliance on "who you are" as opposed to "what you have done formally."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    We're talking about 2 different things though. When i say Te cares about facts i mean it should care about an experience that i've did done: instance, worked at X company doing Y and might even have some numbers on it. You're talking about qualifications which is more like a say college degree, or First Aid certificate or some such. Lol Adam how can you miss this?
    I didn't exactly miss it. I just wrapped all these kinds of previous experience into one ball. What matters most is willingness to do the work, and some native ability to do it, and being a pleasant person to work with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Well what do you suggest to my question? Like my experience has been that i take certain things for granted and other things not. I assume the base criteria up to a certain extend of course, not completely. Or are you addressing Adam? Do you actually care to know whether I place importance on qualifications that Adam said don't matter to him and do you have any examples of your own?
    I should have been more explicit. I think you should continue to interview the way you have been doing, which seems to be to let them know that you have some relevant experience but it might not be, as @wacey said, on the exact same type of equipment. But you can learn to do their job.

    Many companies will refuse to hire you after such an interview. You don't want to work for those companies, because they will look at you as a person who can only do what your "qualifications" say you can do.

    Instead, tell them exactly what you said here. That you've researched the job and you think you'd be perfect for it, because you've done work similar to it before. You might not know exactly how to do everything they ask, but you can learn, and you really would like to work for their company.

    You asked if we have ever been surprised that an interviewer would keep asking you the same questions after you've covered them, so they come back to you. They have a list of criteria they "need" for the job, and they keep asking you so they can check off the points, rather than assess your potential.
    I have had that happen to me many times.
    I covered that question in my description of the second type of company, the one where they keep asking you questions until you fail one. My advice is to walk away from those companies.

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    Oh, the interview process is over btw. And fwiw of the 2 job offers I got one came from LIE the other from LSE (the LIE i cold called on and the LSE said to me that a job had come up and she'd immediately thought of me)
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Oh, the interview process is over btw. And fwiw of the 2 job offers I got one came from LIE the other from LSE (the LIE i cold called on and the LSE said to me that a job had come up and she'd immediately thought of me)
    Are you going to tell us which one you accepted, and why?

    Curious minds want to know.

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    I'm torn, Adam. I also want to wait and see if i'll get something from ILI too. I'm such a whore lol
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    I'm torn, Adam. I also want to wait and see if i'll get something from ILI too. I'm such a whore lol
    You think you're a whore? Not as much as I am. I don't do anything unless it's for money.

    I wish you good luck with getting paid as much as the traffic will bear. And maybe a bit more.

    "What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value." - Thomas Paine

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    With betas, there is more reliance on "who you are" as opposed to "what you have done formally."
    I actually agree with you, but how do you suppose they go about assessing that? Like do you think it is something they spell out in the criteria?
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The difference between Te and Ti is that Te doesn't need all the facts to make a decision. A Ti chemist might be reluctant to accept the organization of the Periodic Table if a few elements were missing, but a Te type will say, Look, if I drop this sodium metal in water, is it going to explode? Most of the time? That's all I need to know.

    Now, having said that, I know that LIE's are terrible interviewers, since we tend to assume that any person can do any job, and that is usually not the case. But no one can know everything about another human being, and so, at some point, you have to make a decision and hope you can correct it if things start to go off the rails. I basically make those decisions based on whether or not I think a person has the inclination and potential for wrecking the place, and I like to work for people who feel similarly.
    I tend to disregard formal "proofs" of qualifications, because they can be handed out like napkins at a fast food restaurant. I tend to go much more by how a person "feels" to me. Assuming, of course, they can do the basic job.
    LIEs are not so negative ime nor are they terrible interviewers - they're actually quite good where i think it counts. Anyway, your talk of potential sounds Ne - i really wanted to add this coz it was bothering me lol.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    LIEs are not so negative ime nor are they terrible interviewers - they're actually quite good where i think it counts. Anyway, your talk of potential sounds Ne - i really wanted to add this coz it was bothering me lol.
    If that is Ne, then I have it. Maybe more than the usual LIE.

    You know, of course, that LIE's are supposed to have 4D Ne.

    If I express Ne more than the usual LIE, it may be because I normally come to conclusions quickly and easily. Too easily, sometimes, and before all the data is in. Long experience has taught me to let the possibilities run for a while before choosing one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    You think you're a whore? Not as much as I am. I don't do anything unless it's for money.

    I wish you good luck with getting paid as much as the traffic will bear. And maybe a bit more.

    "What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value." - Thomas Paine
    You are so awkward here sometimes its really cringy. Why can't you just talk normally to people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    You are so awkward here sometimes its really cringy. Why can't you just talk normally to people?
    To be natural is such a difficult pose to keep up.
    —Oscar Wilde

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    To be natural is such a difficult pose to keep up.
    —Oscar Wilde
    I can tell you and I are definitely not duals. Hope we can stay online friends though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    I can tell you and I are definitely not duals.
    Well, I'm not so sure, but it isn't something has to be resolved. It's not like the label of duality changes the fundamental interaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    Hope we can stay online friends though.
    I fully expect we will.
    @wacey, you might think I took offense at your words, or maybe you took offense at mine, but really, I wasn't offended and I certainly didn't mean to offend. This robotic kind of speech of mine is just, actually, the way I think and talk. @Rebelondeck very insightfully pointed out that LIE's tend to communicate with and treat all people as if they were business partners, and this can certainly come off as being robotic to feeler types. The bad side of this is that you might not be able to tell how I feel. The good side of this is that I don't easily take offense. I am probably an extreme example of this. But it really is the way I talk, and I doubt if I can change it much.

    I read Cuivienen's stuff and absolutely marvel at his natural, manifest humanity. But I don't got that.

    I've considered the fact that I act like a whore since I was about 30 when I noticed that, compared to the people around me at work, I focused on efficiency and future earnings at the expense of feeling good today, so I've been this way for a while.

    Anyway, you're one of the core people whom I like on this forum, and I sincerely hope that never changes. It ain't gonna change from my end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Well, I'm not so sure, but it isn't something has to be resolved. It's not like the label of duality changes the fundamental interaction.



    I fully expect we will.
    @wacey, you might think I took offense at your words, or maybe you took offense at mine, but really, I wasn't offended and I certainly didn't mean to offend. This robotic kind of speech of mine is just, actually, the way I think and talk. @Rebelondeck very insightfully pointed out that LIE's tend to communicate with and treat all people as if they were business partners, and this can certainly come off as being robotic to feeler types. The bad side of this is that you might not be able to tell how I feel. The good side of this is that I don't easily take offense. I am probably an extreme example of this. But it really is the way I talk, and I doubt if I can change it much.

    I read Cuivienen's stuff and absolutely marvel at his natural, manifest humanity. But I don't got that.

    I've considered the fact that I act like a whore since I was about 30 when I noticed that, compared to the people around me at work, I focused on efficiency and future earnings at the expense of feeling good today, so I've been this way for a while.

    Anyway, you're one of the core people whom I like on this forum, and I sincerely hope that never changes. It ain't gonna change from my end.

    LOL to all of this (from my ILI point of view) Business is Gamma and so comfortable. (Gamma NT's only feeling ability )

    The things you write always make sense to me.
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    Perpetual change"


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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Well, I'm not so sure, but it isn't something has to be resolved. It's not like the label of duality changes the fundamental interaction.
    True it doesn't.


    I fully expect we will.
    Alrighty.

    @wacey, you might think I took offense at your words, or maybe you took offense at mine, but really, I wasn't offended and I certainly didn't mean to offend.
    I am not offended whatsoever. I also dont think you were offended. Although I hoped you would be...and then reply to me with something less lame and literary like a quote by a dead author... epsecially when I'm telling you to relate to people in less weird odd ball ways. Like when I saw the Oscar Wilde quote I immediately thought you are actually IEE. It was just such an academic response and just so out of touch with the message I was giving you...like if not socionics here then what? So here are the options:

    1. I am ESI and you are not LIE
    2. I am not ESI and you are LIE
    3. I am ESI and you are LIE
    4. Neither of us are gamma

    This robotic kind of speech of mine is just, actually, the way I think and talk.
    It has nothing to do with the way you talk or the amount of robot. It's the content of what you say not being compatible with the context of any given conversation.

    @Rebelondeck very insightfully pointed out that LIE's tend to communicate with and treat all people as if they were business partners, and this can certainly come off as being robotic to feeler types. The bad side of this is that you might not be able to tell how I feel. The good side of this is that I don't easily take offense. I am probably an extreme example of this. But it really is the way I talk, and I doubt if I can change it much.
    Ya except none if this is business like. Its like things people are saying to you are not clicking in an immediate visceral way.

    I read Cuivienen's stuff and absolutely marvel at his natural, manifest humanity. But I don't got that.
    You dont got good english either with this sentence . I will withold praise for a dude whose past avatars include a chicks grubby cummy mouth.

    I've considered the fact that I act like a whore since I was about 30 when I noticed that, compared to the people around me at work, I focused on efficiency and future earnings at the expense of feeling good today, so I've been this way for a while.
    Nothing to do with you did or didn't act a certain way... its like everything you say is some dear diary for you here. You might as well be talking into a mirror.

    Anyway, you're one of the core people whom I like on this forum, and I sincerely hope that never changes. It ain't gonna change from my end.
    I don't build my freindships on this forum over who I like or dont like. People have just assumed that for me because they think I'm Fi base. And I dont see why it would change either.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Well, I'm not so sure, but it isn't something has to be resolved. It's not like the label of duality changes the fundamental interaction.



    I fully expect we will.
    @wacey, you might think I took offense at your words, or maybe you took offense at mine, but really, I wasn't offended and I certainly didn't mean to offend. This robotic kind of speech of mine is just, actually, the way I think and talk. @Rebelondeck very insightfully pointed out that LIE's tend to communicate with and treat all people as if they were business partners, and this can certainly come off as being robotic to feeler types. The bad side of this is that you might not be able to tell how I feel. The good side of this is that I don't easily take offense. I am probably an extreme example of this. But it really is the way I talk, and I doubt if I can change it much.

    I read Cuivienen's stuff and absolutely marvel at his natural, manifest humanity. But I don't got that.

    I've considered the fact that I act like a whore since I was about 30 when I noticed that, compared to the people around me at work, I focused on efficiency and future earnings at the expense of feeling good today, so I've been this way for a while.

    Anyway, you're one of the core people whom I like on this forum, and I sincerely hope that never changes. It ain't gonna change from my end.
    There's also a lack of intonation and face-to-face interaction on forums.
    After all, LIEs have Fe role and IRL they're not bad at showing the appropriate body language and smile for a given situation.
    fatti non foste a viver come bruti ma per seguir virtute e canoscenza

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    @FDG: what do you think about the stuff i talk about in the OP? Have you encountered something like that?
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    @FDG: what do you think about the stuff i talk about in the OP? Have you encountered something like that?
    I've only seen it in large vs. small companies (where large companies have more complex procedures, and may have political problems beneath the surface influencing each decision).
    But I don't have that much experience, I've only changed like, 6 jobs in my life so far.
    If they need your skills very quickly (read: otherwise they'll lose money), any standard usually goes out of the window.
    fatti non foste a viver come bruti ma per seguir virtute e canoscenza

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    You are very modest, @FDG, that is plenty of experience to draw from! I agree with you though that it depends on how badly one is needed and the standards are re-adjusted accordingly sometimes.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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