What's considered "fake" to Fe and Fi?

[Chae]

I want to know the precise difference. What utterances and actions - give examples if possible - are detected as insincere (?)/inappropriate (?) by the ethical functions, what makes them know it's not genuine?

[Stellafera]

When what they say doesn't match up (Ti?). Doing one thing and saying another. As a Fe creative, my perspective is that the Fe song-and-dance is a means of accurately communicating actual emotions. If your presentation communicates one thing and your deeds communicate another, you're fake whether you intended to be or not. "I'll be here if you need anything [i.e. "I'm concerned for your well being]", then never extending the branch, for instance. If that's how it is, I suppose you weren't as sincere as you thought! Good ways of noticing this include responses that seem overly exaggerated to the situation, saying "yes" to something in a very weasily way, etc.

In general, though, labeling people as "fake" reads really to me.

[ooo]

Social interacting nicely when you don't like someone: fake

complimenting and agreeing with people that are in a position that could be useful to you (=arsekissers): fake

changing opinion as the wind changes: fake

bragging about how cool you are when we know we're all pieces of shit: fake

edit: ahahaha what a timing Stella! ugh.

[ooo]

In general, though, labeling people as "fake" reads really to me.

I feel guilty

[Raver]

When friendliness comes across as exaggerated and unnatural gives a red flag to me. Also, saying you are a good or nice person whether you are or not comes across as fake and full of yourself. Being nice to some people and not others is another red flag showing inconsistency in how you treat others reveals that you are fake.

[The Reality Denialist]

Lower D looks fake to me because they have capability to objectivity. Higher D Fi looks too subjective.

[Stellafera]

I feel guilty

it's ok

Fe types are equally stereotypical for labeling people as rude/mean

[Suz]

Being nice to some people and not others is another red flag showing inconsistency in how you treat others reveals that you are fake.

Social interacting nicely when you don't like someone: fake

But don't these two things contradict each other?

[Raver]

But don't these two things contradict each other?

I should of been more specific as it is not that simple, both are true depending on the situation. Like being overly exaggerate nice to everyone no matter what or to specific people you like, while treating those you don't like poorly is fake too IMO.

[Hope]

But don't these two things contradict each other?

Fi.

[ooo]

But don't these two things contradict each other?

You're right, I think Raver and I have different views on what is fake. And this is interesting because we are made by the same functions but inverted.

For example I agree about how people who overdo something can be perceived as fake, but I generally find that kind of amusing, depending on who does that and for what causes... faking graciousness and pretending to be nice is just fake though lol
But I like how SEE for example, or other bold types can act and put up some sort of show.. in little amounts that's not something suspicious to me...

As for not being nice to all, well, that's not directed at some unfortunate people that are not in my "like list", there's usually some history behind that keeps speaking inside of me, feelings that I can't ignore... I guess this is something strong for Fi based types.

[huiheiwufhawriuhg]

I mostly can't stand it when people over dramatize their emotion to get reaction from others. Whenever I feel like somebody tries to get my attention by acting overly emotional and dramatic I become as cold as ice.

[Olimpia]

I don't even understand what "fake" emotions is supposed to mean exactly... I don't care whether an emotion is "fake" or sincere, for the most part. It would only matter to me if their niceness is largely sarcastic and I can tell. Then I might have an issue with it. Otherwise, as long as they are being nice, that is fine, even if that niceness is not "genuine" and to some extent forced. I care more about the effect/result in this aspect. (However, I would take note of "fake" emotions if it seemed like that in the future, this person would try to backstab me.)

And I do care more about what is "appropriate" emotion, though even that can vary to me... Having said that, I mostly find it inappropriate when people are having fun and laughing and wanting to be merry, and one person (or more) just stays stone-faced and won't join it at all and try to ruin it for everyone. It is fine if someone does not find a joke funny and not join in with big laughter, but I find it problematic and "inappropriate" when that same person starts talking about something very negative then, which brings down the mood of everyone else.

I tend to err on the side of wanting everyone to experience positive emotions, and my natural impulse is trying to "cheer someone up" when they are down, but I have noticed this does not work with certain kinds of people. Some actually get offended, thinking I am laughing about their misery or situation, when I was just trying to improve their mood. In my experience, those individuals were typically ego. Anyhow, as an alternative I patiently listen to them talk it out (this works esp. well with SEEs), and just become a shoulder to lean/cry on.

At last, when I think about it, I find negative "fake" emotions more problematic than positive ones. So-called crocodile tears can annoy me, because they can have a negative effect on the other people around us. But oh well, even with that, I don't really care that much.

[Simo]

I mostly find it inappropriate when people are having fun and laughing and wanting to be merry, and one person (or more) just stays stone-faced and won't join it at all and try to ruin it for everyone. It is fine if someone does not find a joke funny and not join in with big laughter, but I find it problematic and "inappropriate" when that same person starts talking about something very negative then, which brings down the mood of everyone else.

I actually hate it when people try to drag me to join their "having fun" especially when their fun seems silly to me (and since I am a very polite person I don't want to join just to tell them how childish they are ) but they keep insisting (apparently they think I was feeling alone but was shy to join them, but actually I am not & I enjoy my time alone but I guess this is an alien idea to them) so if I refused then there is something wrong with me I was asked before if I have a problem with someone in the group, if there is something they can do so I can get along with them, why do you go to coffee break/lunch/party alone? why don't you come with us or the question that really surprised me "do you not want to hang with us because you think we are stupid compared with you?" but whenever I tell them I just like my time alone they either I am weirdo or I don't like them but trying to be nice. sometimes I really feel like I live in so-first culture & so-lasts like me are not supposed to exist in the first place

In short as you find it inappropriate for the poor guy to stay stone-faced he may find it annoying when you try to get him to join you

[Simo]

But don't these two things contradict each other?

isn't allowed for two people to have contradicting views on a subject?

[ashlesha]

Fake to me is when I don't know where somebody actually stands because their emotional displays always exactly follow the protocol of the situation /environment so who knows what they really feel, or they act super friendly towards me and I think we have a bond but then their behavior towards strangers is identical. I guess these people have good intentions but I don't know how I'm supposed to let my guard down around them.

[Raver]

You're right, I think Raver and I have different views on what is fake. And this is interesting because we are made by the same functions but inverted.

For example I agree about how people who overdo something can be perceived as fake, but I generally find that kind of amusing, depending on who does that and for what causes... faking graciousness and pretending to be nice is just fake though lol
But I like how SEE for example, or other bold types can act and put up some sort of show.. in little amounts that's not something suspicious to me...

As for not being nice to all, well, that's not directed at some unfortunate people that are not in my "like list", there's usually some history behind that keeps speaking inside of me, feelings that I can't ignore... I guess this is something strong for Fi based types.

Yeah I agree, something to consider is that IEE/SEE have demonstrative 4D and creative 3D compared to EII/ESI having dominant 4D and ignoring 3D . So naturally, our and will manifest differently despite the similarities.

[Spermatozoa]

Inappropriate actions (to FeNi)

Any attempts to sow disharmony within a relationship, group or society
Moral rigidity ("I am right and anyone who disagrees is evil")
Self righteousness ("I know what is best for you")
Personal attacks on people who trigger you ("you offend me, so you deserve to be hurt")
Virtue signalling (saying nice sounding things in public, while living a sordid private life)
Lowering someone else's status to compensate for personal failure

[lemontrees]

I think a lot of personal exuberance (like telling somehow how much you like them, or going out of your way to show interest in something you're not interested in b/c you want to show interest in the person, etc)... doesn't necessary feel fake, so much as... uncomfortable (?) Like I've been singled out and have to respond now but if I were to say the identical thing back it would feel fake to me.

Dunno.

[Spermatozoa]

People who say one thing and do another are "fake" to Fe. This is because Fe is objective and judges you according to external standards of morality. It is not as concerned about the motives or beliefs that led to the action, which are hidden from others. It looks at results.

As such in Fe-world, a Wall Street banker who is kind and generous to his family and friends is far more righteous than a virtue-signalling SJW who lies, cheats on and is emotionally abusive to her boyfriend. It is what you do that defines you, not what you believe. This "bad people can do good deeds" and "works will take you to heaven" view is typical of Roman Catholicism, which is very Fe heavy.

Example of "fake" behaviour that will uncur Fe wrath are:

Betrayal/disloyalty - friends and partners who do not support the Fe user in times of need against enemies
Hypocrisy (as above) - patronizing, moralizing people who perform amoral acts in their personal lives

[wasp]

I dislike scapegoating for the same reason I dislike ass-kissing. To let someone's social standing (or lack thereof) influence your treatment of them - even if they've been nothing but kind (or rude) to you - makes little sense to me. I've seen people give and take a lot of shit because they can't think for themselves. In other words, group-think is "fake" to me. In small doses it can be a form of social maneuvering. In large doses, it can seem as if their brain is periodically wiped clean and filled with the latest gossip. Not clever, just weak. And fake.

[Suz]

isn't allowed for two people to have contradicting views on a subject?

I never said it's against the rules, but it doesn't help in understanding what Fi types see as fake...

[Simo]

I never said it's against the rules, but it doesn't help in understanding what Fi types see as fake...

not really it just means Fi is not the same for everyone so you can't understand it by having a list of what Fi considers as fake, instead we should look for the common patterns in the things listed by Fi types.

the way I see it is that Fi is about forming bonds with the self (your values) and with others (your relationships), so if we use this definition as our base we can see that what Fi considers as fake is anything that form superficial bonds so this may manifest as "lack of integrity" (superficial bonds with certain values) or as being a "social chameleon" who try to be friends with everyone

so if you look at what @Raver said you can notice she was focusing on the "lack of integrity" while @hybris theory was focusing on the "social chameleon"

[Grendel]

- Being too perfect, especially in the form of showing disproportionate anxiety when minuscule flaws show. Half the time I can only assume it's a deliberate attempt at degradation, in the form of making you look pathetic by comparison when you fail to share these anxieties. "Concern trolling" I call it.


- Any gesture given in response to a person's sincere statement of opinion, to "subtly" nudge them towards the values of the group, as if to implicitly say they can't believe said individual is unaware of the accepted consensus, and that they should reconsider their stance based on this dissonance alone. When a person has said his peace, it should be understood that he knew the risks of taking said stance. I don't give a rat's asshole what the community believes unless perhaps it's information only a professional could understand.


- Glossing over clear hatred with very active pleasantries. It's difficult to shake me off if you engage me in a way that suggests you like me.


- Casually chastizing others for flaws you're notorious for, as if to make yourself less guilty or less of a scapegoat by comparison, thus appealing to the witch-hunting standards of a collective that would have you weeded out as well. If you suffer for your flaws, resist those who scapegoated you for them. Don't endorse their standards and trample over others like yourself. You're not fooling anyone.

[Pallas]

Fake = deceitful to me. People consciously choose their actions. Actions don't just naturally flow from existing like snow melting off a mountaintop. If people mean what they do, I don't see how that can be fake, no matter how fickle or moralistic or whatever other undesirable thing they are. A lot of things are near-certain signs of deceit, but most of the things people have listed aren't, just things you assume must be fake because you couldn't see how anyone would earnestly want to do them.

[Pallas]

People who say one thing and do another are "fake" to Fe. This is because Fe is objective and judges you according to external standards of morality. It is not as concerned about the motives or beliefs that led to the action, which are hidden from others. It looks at results.

As such in Fe-world, a Wall Street banker who is kind and generous to his family and friends is far more righteous than a virtue-signalling SJW who lies, cheats on and is emotionally abusive to her boyfriend. It is what you do that defines you, not what you believe. This "bad people can do good deeds" and "works will take you to heaven" view is typical of Roman Catholicism, which is very Fe heavy.

Example of "fake" behaviour that will uncur Fe wrath are:

Betrayal/disloyalty - friends and partners who do not support the Fe user in times of need against enemies
Hypocrisy (as above) - patronizing, moralizing people who perform amoral acts in their personal lives

This is stereotypically Serious over Merry. Stereotypically.

[Spermatozoa]

This is stereotypically Serious over Merry. Stereotypically.

Well, there is always an exception to the rule, that's the beauty of life. People surprise you, and I do love exceeding expectations. On a more personal note, though, I'd be more inclined to take your suggestions seriously if you could settle on a type yourself. Fair comment?

Still, I'm sure we could always settle this and other questions over a nice voice chat. After all, I would love to hear your voice. I am sure that it is very smooth and melodious.

[Myst]

Originally Posted by Raver

Being nice to some people and not others is another red flag showing inconsistency in how you treat others reveals that you are fake.
Originally Posted by hybris theory
Social interacting nicely when you don't like someone: fake



But don't these two things contradict each other?

If you are not nice to some people without real reason, then I can see Raver's idea applying fine.

I think a lot of personal exuberance (like telling somehow how much you like them, or going out of your way to show interest in something you're not interested in b/c you want to show interest in the person, etc)... doesn't necessary feel fake, so much as... uncomfortable (?) Like I've been singled out and have to respond now but if I were to say the identical thing back it would feel fake to me.

Dunno.

I'd just be polite in response (assuming I don't have that much interest in the person).

Fake to me is when I don't know where somebody actually stands because their emotional displays always exactly follow the protocol of the situation /environment so who knows what they really feel, or they act super friendly towards me and I think we have a bond but then their behavior towards strangers is identical. I guess these people have good intentions but I don't know how I'm supposed to let my guard down around them.

That's actually easy for me, I track the content of what the person says and their actions as well and see if I'm really treated the exact same as anyone else, then I'll just take it as a nice person being attentive (nice person: I'm assuming no red flags). If I'm interested in them then I'd be happy with keeping up interaction with them and over time the relationship might deepen. Meaning, I'm not treated the exact same as anyone else but there are "extras". Then I may let my guard down around them over time. And if not specifically interested in the person, then I just enjoy the attentiveness if it's not overdone. (In this case I could still get interested later if I get to know more about them.) In any case, I'll be polite at the least, keeping the usual social distance, but if it's really cool then maybe I'll actually have some fun with them, depending.

[Myst]

As for what's fake... idk. I can see what's emotionally manipulative in a bad way (for bad goals, that is, egotistical ones, I'm not one for being taken advantage of), I can see when people's words don't match their actions (especially sensitive to this), but this fakeness topic I don't often think about. I've seen some E3s (not all) as weird before in a way that I guess I could call fake but the word itself is a bit weird to me for some reason

[Sol]

is there a difference what is 2x2 for Fe and Fi types ?

[Raver]

not really it just means Fi is not the same for everyone so you can't understand it by having a list of what Fi considers as fake, instead we should look for the common patterns in the things listed by Fi types.

the way I see it is that Fi is about forming bonds with the self (your values) and with others (your relationships), so if we use this definition as our base we can see that what Fi considers as fake is anything that form superficial bonds so this may manifest as "lack of integrity" (superficial bonds with certain values) or as being a "social chameleon" who try to be friends with everyone

so if you look at what @Raver said you can notice she was focusing on the "lack of integrity" while @hybris theory was focusing on the "social chameleon"

Well said. To elaborate further, it is not necessarily about treating others differently with a good reason, but showing inconsistency in your morals and values. Like one thing that irritates me is when someone is mean to X person for X reason, but is completely fine with Y person for X reason. I consider that being fake because they are judging X and Y person over superficial reasons rather than their actual actions. Btw, I am a guy and not a girl haha.

[Stellafera]

Inappropriate actions (to FeNi)

Any attempts to sow disharmony within a relationship, group or society
Moral rigidity ("I am right and anyone who disagrees is evil")
Self righteousness ("I know what is best for you")
Personal attacks on people who trigger you ("you offend me, so you deserve to be hurt")
Virtue signalling (saying nice sounding things in public, while living a sordid private life)
Lowering someone else's status to compensate for personal failure

All of this is true as well for this Ni-Fe'er. I wouldn't describe those actions as fake but I would describe them all as inappropriate. A very Fe-ish list.

[Pookie]

I've never called someone fake.

[Adam Strange]

Probably the biggest reason why my EII sister ices me out of her life (she sees me as overdramatic). I have a hard time seeing how intense emotion is fake though if it's what you're genuinely feeling at the time...

I have an IEI cousin, and my sister lived with her for a while, and I asked my sister what her worst fault was, and she said it was her lying. I thought, No way does she lie. But then I thought about it for a while, and I think my sister meant that our cousin will sometimes be very effusive (Fe) with her emotions and will say things she doesn't exactly believe all the time in order to go along with the mood of the group. To someone who values Fi, this can seem very horrible, because an Fi-valuer has internal opinions which don't vary from one situation to another. When they see someone express themselves one way in one set of circumstances and another way in a different set of circumstances, they judge that person by their own Fi-values, and conclude that they are not consistent and therefore not trustworthy.

As for myself, I love my cousin and since we often slept together in a crib when we were young, our brainwaves probably merged a bit and I'm now pretty understanding of IEI's. I've dated a couple, and they are anything but fake.

[Myst]

Probably the biggest reason why my EII sister ices me out of her life (she sees me as overdramatic). I have a hard time seeing how intense emotion is fake though if it's what you're genuinely feeling at the time...

Without followthrough after you were done feeling the intense emotion, it's shallow/superficial. (Assuming it was the type of emotion that does require action afterwards too. E.g. when you make a promise.)

Hm, maybe closest thing to fake, then.

I have an IEI cousin, and my sister lived with her for a while, and I asked my sister what her worst fault was, and she said it was her lying. I thought, No way does she lie. But then I thought about it for a while, and I think my sister meant that our cousin will sometimes be very effusive (Fe) with her emotions and will say things she doesn't exactly believe all the time in order to go along with the mood of the group. To someone who values Fi, this can seem very horrible, because an Fi-valuer has internal opinions which don't vary from one situation to another. When they see someone express themselves one way in one set of circumstances and another way in a different set of circumstances, they judge that person by their own Fi-values, and conclude that they are not consistent and therefore not trustworthy.

As for myself, I love my cousin and since we often slept together in a crib when we were young, our brainwaves probably merged a bit and I'm now pretty understanding of IEI's. I've dated a couple, and they are anything but fake.

I don't mind that for small things lol

In important issues I prefer consistency.

[ooo]

Some random thinking..

to recognize what is fake means to have in mind a precedent condition that we can call "true". The difference between the first and the new condition is a difference about how we perceive reality: static or dynamic. For statics the objects will have a given quality, a label. For dynamics the objects are granted the possibilities they have, so the objects change and that's a part of their quality.

On another level, all kinds of lying are "fake"; even a novel, or a film, are fake, and even time as we know it is fake... but this doesn't make any of these things less real.

So the difference is not actually in what is fake, but in how those kinds of deceit are felt by me, and for this they become more apparent to me, and maybe more troublesome, always to me, as well.

Fi static types are judicious in that somehow they label and catalog impressions and then use them as reference for the future; then, depending on the position of Fi in the ego block, that judgment will be more or less prone to be triggered.
Fe are instead dynamic types, more malleable in applying judgments to reality, there's no fake to them as in there's no sticky label for objects, they just "are".

Anyway, there's a further disposition of irrational and rational elements that will contribute to amplify these 2 approaches, for example, an ENFP doesn't use his/her Fi unconsciously (base function is quite automatic), therefore can use his irrational function to absorb reality and then elaborate it using Fi; whereas an INFJ will use Fi more unconsciously and use Ne to further expand their inner impressions.

Both Fe and Fi anyway perceive "illusion" (or fakeness) in an ethical and social manner. In general, for Fi, the sense of illusion is caused by his own essence in relationship to others; to Fe it is more about the essence of humanity altogether, ever changing, yet united by culture, laws, etc..
The Fi asks " how does the world relate to me?", while the Fe asks " how do I relate to the world?", one creates insights, the other creates visions.

My initial list seems a bit shallow now, I'd add, just to state the obvious: lying. And this is probably what bothers us all the most.

I agree with the list by Cuivienen, but I wouldn't put in there the "not aligning to the current flow", that has nothing to do with being fake or not... and it seems more like a fascist thing to impose.

[Pink]

If someone lies about aspects of themselves to make themselves appear as something they're not, imo is fake.

[Singu]

Fake:

- Any expression of emotions that you are not actually feeling at the moment, this can range anything from pretending that you're nice and happy, to pretending that you're angry and irritable, to pretending that you are tough and strong, to pretending that you are sad and depressed, to pretending that you are weak and helpless.

Note... that most human beings are "fake" in this way in one way or another...

- Any expressions of thoughts or opinions that you do not actually possess or believe in, that typically change from person to person, from groups to groups. This can range anything from white lies, to trying to blend into a group, to trying to suck up to superiors, to "small talk", to just saying "nice things".

But most people are simply polite and tell white lies and say "nice things" to strangers.

Inappropriate:

- Anything that can cause realistic harm or anything that can negatively affect others in a realistic way.
- Excessive self-centeredness, not genuinely considering other people.

Not inappropriate:

- Any violation of social mores or protocols or manners or rules that are kept within a society or a group for the sake of tradition, or because of such hierarchical structure, but I consider to be pointless or harmless.

- Making people angry or offended, but the act was considered to be either moral or justified.

[lavos]

Fe types complain that Fi types are fake because they behave meekly for the sake of harmony while not really feeling anything positive for the person(s) involved. i.e. "You are being nice to me but you don't really like me".

Fi types complain that Fe types are fake because they exhibit emotions or behaviors that are not in tune with what they really feel/are internally. i.e "You are always so friendly and bubbly when in reality you are a cold bastard".

[wacey]

really shifty shady ethical maneuvering gets under my skin. like how the Starks got ripped apart because they are so honourable in a shitty world.