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Thread: consciousness to socionics

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    Post consciousness to socionics

    If we would put it into a hierarchy it would look something like

    consciousness have two options, it can explore or classify. The antithesis would be it can seek or destroy. (maybe awake vs sleep).

    So by that it would mean we can only be at one place at once, one focus with our consciousness, that one is a given. What your consciousness than can do is explore, gather information from the senses and such, touch things. At this point there will arise some questions, what is this im holding for example. At this point the classification bit start and you use some filters and tools whatnot to understand this object. At this time you can explore again more maybe internally what this can do or externally what more details it contain. Or just go default and explore again. The circle can start with Classification too.

    Maybe we have an other type when we dream which internally experience the memories and such. ;p To go to Socionics at this point we can start to look at types and what judgement and perception elements they got in what priority. Also intuition would better be called causation, the time would be how by you the person is the subject of causation and intuition how causation is happening generally.

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    This is being worked into my Model T. Each set of elements, for example extroverted perception, is blocked and set with a priority. Se p1 Ne p2. The groups are EP, EJ, IP, IJ. These are groups within the model not types.
    Last edited by Tigerfadder; 09-09-2017 at 07:52 AM.

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    what are you on about Tiger? what about Model T?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hybris theory View Post
    what are you on about Tiger? what about Model T?
    Not the one made by some victor T but the one from mr Tigerfadder. It might be a work in progress but it would be truly awsome to have formed an own model. Model G is about energy, i figure mine would be in the consciousness.

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    Model Tiger ahahah, go for it!

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    What colors does Model T come in?

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    The explore or classify bit is really interesting to me...makes me wonder is it true, there is only two options for consciousness?

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    The idea is that there is an unconscious side which circle goes seek and destroy. This is sometimes clingy and passive aggressive. Like when an addictive person just ignore everything to get his or her needs met, this is the unconscious state. Seek is the dark "exploring" and destroy is the dark "classification".

    The conscious state is "the light". In this state the person is actually attentive (exploring) and giving to the world. (working it with classification, understanding).
    Last edited by Tigerfadder; 09-11-2017 at 02:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    The explore or classify bit is really interesting to me...makes me wonder is it true, there is only two options for consciousness?
    It depends on how narrowly or broadly you define consciousness. You can also desire, imagine, create, then explore and classify but I am probably working with a different concept of consciousness than op. Consciousness can also be thought of as energy, without form, dreaming, which leads to desire...imagining...awakening...self aware. I saw a question on my fb today and I thought of this thread.

    "Do you have a positive, neutral or negative imagination?" (paraphrased)

    I believe our link to consciousness (whether shallow, deeper or higher) is in the form of imagination, which is fed by the subconscious. It starts with desire, even if that desire does not consciously register it pulls our awareness closer to expressing things in a physical form which allows us to create, explore and classify the world around us. Those who believe they have low self awareness are just as influenced by this subconscious force of energy that drives humans to keep things moving.

    In a strange synch I was looking for an image and stumbled on this site which looks pretty interesting at first glance. I skimmed some of it and decided it was actually very similar to what I have been thinking, metaphorically perhaps. I am not well versed on the science of pair production but in a few hours I may be. The image just makes some sense in relation to what I was attempting to put into words.






    http://ryuc.info/creativityphysics/energy/pair_production.htm


    Application of the pair production phenomenon to creativity is to realize that from a creativity perspective, energy consciousness is the fabric of creation. The relationship between energy and consciousness is that each is the ability to make something happen or to cause an effect. To cause a creation to come into existence is to cause an effect. To cause a physical creation to come into existence is for the creation to assume a particular form in physical creation. This means that whatever is produced is a form of energy for it arose out of energy. Either it is a flow of energy animating the creation or a flow of energy giving rise to, or forming, the creation. Its antiparticle, or “anti-creation” is then in the form of consciousness. If the consciousness awakens as a result of the flow of energy, the creation then can become aware of its existence and/or itself as an independent entity or as consciously simply awakening to itself.

    As the flow of energy winds its way through the existing physical world, consciousness experiences different types and kinds of other energy flows. They, in turn, awaken different parts and aspects of consciousness. Unfortunately, consciousness defines itself by these different parts and aspects which awakens as a result of the experiences it has had. Rather than seen itself as the awareness within the flow it sees itself as the manifested form of the flow. It many ways it is like a flow of lava that identifies itself with the hardened outer shell of the lava tube rather than as the flow of lava which gives rise to the shape and form of the tube.

    What needs to be understood here is that what is in our consciousness is manifested external as the world we experience. What we experience externally is a result of what lies in our consciousness. We can expect what we think and believe to causes us to have certain types and kinds of experiences for the environment in which we find ourselves. Similarly, what we experience externally is telling us something about our own thinking and what we believe whether or not we are aware of our thinking and/or our beliefs that are responsible for the experiences. If we wish to know what we think and believe at the deepest levels of our being, we only need to look at our bodies and the world we experience. If we wish to experience a body and a world that better serves us, we only need to look at our own thinking and what we believe.




    Anyway I was skimming those pages and things started to click in my head. Not so much word for word but the essence of it, overlaying my ideas of consciousness and science, perhaps. Giving my thoughts some organization.

    I may sound a bit high but Irma decided to pass me by so what is going on around me is surreal considering I am sitting here like any other day taking advantage of my power, (electricity) while there is chaos swirling around me for 100s of miles, and thinking it could have been so bad but I decided to distract myself by casting a spell on my triangle of earth to keep her out. The distraction worked, after I symbolically imagined the ritual a few days ago I didn't really feel concerned. Positive imagining actually worked for me. I don't even care that it was just a way to focus my energy and not fall into fear or pessimism. The thought of being without power for days was horrible. I went through it before, during a hurricane, for one day which was enough. 5.5 million (last I looked) people without power and here I sit feeling all powerful, while posting, like it is any other day but it isn't.

    Edit: I just realized it is also 9/11 which superimposes another layer of meaning to it all.
    Last edited by Aylen; 09-11-2017 at 03:39 PM.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    It depends on how narrowly or broadly you define consciousness. You can also desire, imagine, create, then explore and classify but I am probably working with a different concept of consciousness than op. Consciousness can also be thought of as energy, without form, dreaming, which leads to desire...imagining...awakening...self aware. I saw a question on my fb today and I thought of this thread.

    "Do you have a positive, neutral or negative imagination?" (paraphrased)

    I believe our link to consciousness (whether shallow, deeper or higher) is in the form of imagination, which is fed by the subconscious. It starts with desire, even if that desire does not consciously register it pulls our awareness closer to expressing things in a physical form which allows us to create, explore and classify the world around us. Those who believe they have low self awareness are just as influenced by this subconscious force of energy that drives humans to keep things moving.


    In a strange synch I was looking for an image and stumbled on this site which looks pretty interesting at first glance. I skimmed some of it and decided it was actually very similar to what I have been thinking, metaphorically perhaps. I am not well versed on the science of pair production but in a few hours I may be. The image just makes some sense in relation to what I was attempting to put into words.






    http://ryuc.info/creativityphysics/energy/pair_production.htm


    Application of the pair production phenomenon to creativity is to realize that from a creativity perspective, energy consciousness is the fabric of creation. The relationship between energy and consciousness is that each is the ability to make something happen or to cause an effect. To cause a creation to come into existence is to cause an effect. To cause a physical creation to come into existence is for the creation to assume a particular form in physical creation. This means that whatever is produced is a form of energy for it arose out of energy. Either it is a flow of energy animating the creation or a flow of energy giving rise to, or forming, the creation. Its antiparticle, or “anti-creation” is then in the form of consciousness. If the consciousness awakens as a result of the flow of energy, the creation then can become aware of its existence and/or itself as an independent entity or as consciously simply awakening to itself.

    As the flow of energy winds its way through the existing physical world, consciousness experiences different types and kinds of other energy flows. They, in turn, awaken different parts and aspects of consciousness. Unfortunately, consciousness defines itself by these different parts and aspects which awakens as a result of the experiences it has had. Rather than seen itself as the awareness within the flow it sees itself as the manifested form of the flow. It many ways it is like a flow of lava that identifies itself with the hardened outer shell of the lava tube rather than as the flow of lava which gives rise to the shape and form of the tube.

    What needs to be understood here is that what is in our consciousness is manifested external as the world we experience. What we experience externally is a result of what lies in our consciousness. We can expect what we think and believe to causes us to have certain types and kinds of experiences for the environment in which we find ourselves. Similarly, what we experience externally is telling us something about our own thinking and what we believe whether or not we are aware of our thinking and/or our beliefs that are responsible for the experiences. If we wish to know what we think and believe at the deepest levels of our being, we only need to look at our bodies and the world we experience. If we wish to experience a body and a world that better serves us, we only need to look at our own thinking and what we believe.



    Anyway I was skimming those pages and things started to click in my head. Not so much word for word but the essence of it, overlaying my ideas of consciousness and science, perhaps. Giving my thoughts some organization.

    I may sound a bit high but Irma decided to pass me by so what is going on around me is surreal considering I am sitting here like any other day talking advantage of my power, (electricity) while there is chaos swirling around me for 100s of miles, and thinking it could have been so bad but I decided to distract myself by casting a spell on my triangle of earth to keep her out. The distraction worked, after I symbolically imagined the ritual a few days ago I didn't really feel concerned. Positive imagining actually worked for me. I don't even care that it was just a way to focus my energy and not fall into fear or pessimism. The thought of being without power for days was horrible. I went through it before, during a hurricane, for one day which was enough. 5.5 million (last I looked) people without power and here I sit feeling all powerful, while posting, like it is any other day but it isn't.
    I believe that consciousness work more how quantum mechanics work within science. All the randomness, so if you are in a consciousness state or not is hard to really know until you observe.

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    The next step when we have picked one circle we can go into the judgement and perception blocks. Here is the first step where people are really divided into groups and depending on your circle you can become really toxic toward the world or not. It is merely the symptoms of it. In the block, for example IEI which in model A got Ti as the HA, in this model it would be the Fi p1 Ti p2 block which have the strong Fi within it and want it to also be good with Ti, not being limited by this. In the first block of Ni p1 Si p2, Si is more the symptom of leading with Introverted Perception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    I believe that consciousness work more how quantum mechanics work within science. All the randomness, so if you are in a consciousness state or not is hard to really know until you observe.
    I don't think that conflicts with what I believe. I do believe that there are layers of consciousness to traverse and observing is an element of it.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    It depends on how narrowly or broadly you define consciousness. You can also desire, imagine, create, then explore and classify but I am probably working with a different concept of consciousness than op. Consciousness can also be thought of as energy, without form, dreaming, which leads to desire...imagining...awakening...self aware. I saw a question on my fb today and I thought of this thread.

    "Do you have a positive, neutral or negative imagination?" (paraphrased)

    I believe our link to consciousness (whether shallow, deeper or higher) is in the form of imagination, which is fed by the subconscious. It starts with desire, even if that desire does not consciously register it pulls our awareness closer to expressing things in a physical form which allows us to create, explore and classify the world around us. Those who believe they have low self awareness are just as influenced by this subconscious force of energy that drives humans to keep things moving.

    In a strange synch I was looking for an image and stumbled on this site which looks pretty interesting at first glance. I skimmed some of it and decided it was actually very similar to what I have been thinking, metaphorically perhaps. I am not well versed on the science of pair production but in a few hours I may be. The image just makes some sense in relation to what I was attempting to put into words.






    http://ryuc.info/creativityphysics/energy/pair_production.htm


    Application of the pair production phenomenon to creativity is to realize that from a creativity perspective, energy consciousness is the fabric of creation. The relationship between energy and consciousness is that each is the ability to make something happen or to cause an effect. To cause a creation to come into existence is to cause an effect. To cause a physical creation to come into existence is for the creation to assume a particular form in physical creation. This means that whatever is produced is a form of energy for it arose out of energy. Either it is a flow of energy animating the creation or a flow of energy giving rise to, or forming, the creation. Its antiparticle, or “anti-creation” is then in the form of consciousness. If the consciousness awakens as a result of the flow of energy, the creation then can become aware of its existence and/or itself as an independent entity or as consciously simply awakening to itself.

    As the flow of energy winds its way through the existing physical world, consciousness experiences different types and kinds of other energy flows. They, in turn, awaken different parts and aspects of consciousness. Unfortunately, consciousness defines itself by these different parts and aspects which awakens as a result of the experiences it has had. Rather than seen itself as the awareness within the flow it sees itself as the manifested form of the flow. It many ways it is like a flow of lava that identifies itself with the hardened outer shell of the lava tube rather than as the flow of lava which gives rise to the shape and form of the tube.

    What needs to be understood here is that what is in our consciousness is manifested external as the world we experience. What we experience externally is a result of what lies in our consciousness. We can expect what we think and believe to causes us to have certain types and kinds of experiences for the environment in which we find ourselves. Similarly, what we experience externally is telling us something about our own thinking and what we believe whether or not we are aware of our thinking and/or our beliefs that are responsible for the experiences. If we wish to know what we think and believe at the deepest levels of our being, we only need to look at our bodies and the world we experience. If we wish to experience a body and a world that better serves us, we only need to look at our own thinking and what we believe.




    Anyway I was skimming those pages and things started to click in my head. Not so much word for word but the essence of it, overlaying my ideas of consciousness and science, perhaps. Giving my thoughts some organization.

    I may sound a bit high but Irma decided to pass me by so what is going on around me is surreal considering I am sitting here like any other day taking advantage of my power, (electricity) while there is chaos swirling around me for 100s of miles, and thinking it could have been so bad but I decided to distract myself by casting a spell on my triangle of earth to keep her out. The distraction worked, after I symbolically imagined the ritual a few days ago I didn't really feel concerned. Positive imagining actually worked for me. I don't even care that it was just a way to focus my energy and not fall into fear or pessimism. The thought of being without power for days was horrible. I went through it before, during a hurricane, for one day which was enough. 5.5 million (last I looked) people without power and here I sit feeling all powerful, while posting, like it is any other day but it isn't.

    Edit: I just realized it is also 9/11 which superimposes another layer of meaning to it all.
    Yeah its very crazy the fundamentals and universals of whats going on. You could spend your whole lifetime on that journey to map consciousness. As an Ni type you know that more than many. I enjoy fellow travellers such as yourself who are somewhat more advanced down that pathway. My preferred and rarely experinced state these days is one of conscious contact of the great mysteries. I feel one of the sadnesses of aging is the grey matter hardens and the world is not new anymore. The insights, the awareness, the revelations, the dialougues and monologues, the sense of immediacy and agency take on a repeating pattern. This season showing signs of the last years. And with it the urge and desire, the fire, burns slower then it did as a young man. I fear I will never be free of the tape recording. Of early condititioning. Just gibberish I know.

    Here is a good memory you and I shared.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye_mDZRMzeo

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post

    Here is a good memory you and I shared.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye_mDZRMzeo
    Oh fever ray <3

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    Nothing good will come from this, Anakin.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Nothing good will come from this, Anakin.
    May the force be with you...

    Anyway to wrap the model T up, there is obviously two more blocks to cover. both are inferior blocks in dimension of 3D's and 1D's. The strongest in Dimension in model A is the p1.

    We can also do ITR with this model by making one do the exploring part and the other do the classifying part. By doing this you can cover more ground. By now the structure is set.
    Last edited by Tigerfadder; 09-15-2017 at 09:05 PM.

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    Actually this tuned out pretty good. I been thinking of different scenarios of ITR and how people usually behave and it can be described in this model. If anyone have thoughts, ideas or anything please make them because at this point the subject is pretty dried out. People use their p2 to serve their p1, people with the same sets of elements in the same dimension have them but different spins. All elements in each block have same spins. The positive spin types have the opposite in the explore or classify. Classify opens the topic by talking about the object so to speak and the explorer find the objects in the topic. All acts are both good or bad until other person define it as one and then it is so. It is consistent and can be applied with other theories of socionics.
    Last edited by Tigerfadder; 09-20-2017 at 08:11 PM.

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    Well, I have a different definition of Conscientiousness yeah, I don't know why the different text style, I copied and pasted. I might put it up latter. Oh. Whoops, I read consciousness as contentiousness. I'm not deleting this.

    I think that those things you described are four different actions people can take. There is explore, classify, seek, and destroy. Certainly, we have preferences on what we like though. Interesting concept though of contiousness though.

    The most similar ones are seek and explore, so I'd work to have a good differentiation of those. They are not the same. Seek implies something already known, while explore implies something novel, at least that is my interpretation. If combining seek and destroy and explore and create, seek and explore are quite interchangeable. As such, I'd set up as 4 different actions one can take.

    I don't know how this relates to conciousness though, unless we're talking about how the conciousness interacts with the world.

    As for understanding the way people think, I agree that understanding how they literally think would be a good thing to learn about. I can attempt to help, as I know about how I think, and how other people might think. It's really all about narrowing down possibilities, although there is always the possibility of a comprehension that is inconceivable or we forgot.

    Oh boy, spin. Sounds mighty abstract and contrived. I understand the point, but the above problem in which you have a dichotomy with two separate, potentially unrelated, parts to it.

    I really aught to finish my own theory. I'm busy replying to these posts though.
    If I stop responding or posting, I've probably taken a break from posting stuff. This really taxes me for whatever reason. Said break could last anywhere from a month to a year. I will likely be back, as socionics is one of my interests. If I'm not on here, you can contact me on steam.

    I got a new computer, so I'll not type on mobile as much any more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alomoes View Post
    Well, I have a different definition of Conscientiousness yeah, I don't know why the different text style, I copied and pasted. I might put it up latter. Oh. Whoops, I read consciousness as contentiousness. I'm not deleting this.

    I think that those things you described are four different actions people can take. There is explore, classify, seek, and destroy. Certainly, we have preferences on what we like though. Interesting concept though of contiousness though.

    The most similar ones are seek and explore, so I'd work to have a good differentiation of those. They are not the same. Seek implies something already known, while explore implies something novel, at least that is my interpretation. If combining seek and destroy and explore and create, seek and explore are quite interchangeable. As such, I'd set up as 4 different actions one can take.

    I don't know how this relates to conciousness though, unless we're talking about how the conciousness interacts with the world.

    As for understanding the way people think, I agree that understanding how they literally think would be a good thing to learn about. I can attempt to help, as I know about how I think, and how other people might think. It's really all about narrowing down possibilities, although there is always the possibility of a comprehension that is inconceivable or we forgot.

    Oh boy, spin. Sounds mighty abstract and contrived. I understand the point, but the above problem in which you have a dichotomy with two separate, potentially unrelated, parts to it.

    I really aught to finish my own theory. I'm busy replying to these posts though.
    Cool! Ya... Making dichotomies of them might work, might not work. The idea is that when you do something every possibility of the higher hierarchy is done, both destroy and classify. Only when the results are judged by an other part everything falls appart and we can see if it was destroy or classify.

    Spins are awesome if you get them. Those I work with does not mean that a person with a negative symbol in their leading place is a negative person. Those I work with say a bit of the character of that element. SEI and SLI does not use it in the same way exactly. SEI is Si-. Si- is a bit more basic and forceful way of Si than Si+. Its a whole story but maybe someone else will work it out, and the rest will just follow what already exist and not build or invent anything in Socionics. ;p

    Looking forward to hear you modelling. I should say that my model is in the public domain therefor every person who understands it owns it. ;p Feel free to merge yours with mine.

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    So, was thinking about this. Consciousness to me, the word itself, is basically the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings. So in that sense all living creatures are conscious. Otherwise they wouldn't have senses for light, hearing, smelling, touching, ect. or experience things like pain, hunger, ect. Humans are several levels above that, in that we are actually aware of the fact that we are conscious. Therefor we have thoughts and can ponder the nature of our own existence whereas animals just sort of live in the moment even though they are indeed conscious.

    That living in the moment conscious is like a blank awareness sheet, with raw data being played from our senses, as well as the thoughts, feelings, emotions, memories, egoic identity, subconscious reactions locked away in the brain matter.

    ----{thoughts, feelings, emotions, memories, egoic identity, subconscious reactions locked away in the brain matter}------ this is the why the buddhists say we actually have six senses, and this sixth sense is the mind's eye, which is made up of the components inside the brackets.

    Consciousness at its base, being the raw aware contact to the reality surrounding the organism as well as the reality being played within the organism's mind's eye, is truly devoid of a central player. It just is. It is the same inside me as inside you. Which is why the new agers describe everyone as being one.

    It is found inside organic matter and that organic matter exists and is effected by the world within and without. The neurones of one's mind is where the consciousness must reside and therefor is forced to watch the choices, events, made by the organism. Human's have several brains stacked on top one another, as resulting from our natural selection journey. The higher brains, such as the front pre-cortex may for a time run the machinery of the rest of the organism, whereas the lower crocodile brain may do the same. Each can hijack consciousness to serve its current purpose. Other parts of the brain may view this process happening, which is a uniquely human gift from the rest of the animal kingdom.

    Socionics fits very high on the brain's hierarchy, what facets of reality is the mind's eye choosing to participate/view/ignore/ ect. is covered by socionics theory. I struggle to understand what was meant be the original supposition that there are only a few options for consciousness to go? Certainly explore/classify and seek/destroy are options, yet there must be others as well, although I'm racked to think of any. lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    So, was thinking about this. Consciousness to me, the word itself, is basically the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings. So in that sense all living creatures are conscious. Otherwise they wouldn't have senses for light, hearing, smelling, touching, ect. or experience things like pain, hunger, ect. Humans are several levels above that, in that we are actually aware of the fact that we are conscious. Therefor we have thoughts and can ponder the nature of our own existence whereas animals just sort of live in the moment even though they are indeed conscious.

    That living in the moment conscious is like a blank awareness sheet, with raw data being played from our senses, as well as the thoughts, feelings, emotions, memories, egoic identity, subconscious reactions locked away in the brain matter.

    ----{thoughts, feelings, emotions, memories, egoic identity, subconscious reactions locked away in the brain matter}------ this is the why the buddhists say we actually have six senses, and this sixth sense is the mind's eye, which is made up of the components inside the brackets.

    Consciousness at its base, being the raw aware contact to the reality surrounding the organism as well as the reality being played within the organism's mind's eye, is truly devoid of a central player. It just is. It is the same inside me as inside you. Which is why the new agers describe everyone as being one.

    It is found inside organic matter and that organic matter exists and is effected by the world within and without. The neurones of one's mind is where the consciousness must reside and therefor is forced to watch the choices, events, made by the organism. Human's have several brains stacked on top one another, as resulting from our natural selection journey. The higher brains, such as the front pre-cortex may for a time run the machinery of the rest of the organism, whereas the lower crocodile brain may do the same. Each can hijack consciousness to serve its current purpose. Other parts of the brain may view this process happening, which is a uniquely human gift from the rest of the animal kingdom.

    Socionics fits very high on the brain's hierarchy, what facets of reality is the mind's eye choosing to participate/view/ignore/ ect. is covered by socionics theory. I struggle to understand what was meant be the original supposition that there are only a few options for consciousness to go? Certainly explore/classify and seek/destroy are options, yet there must be others as well, although I'm racked to think of any. lol.
    Ya But what we suggest is that consciousness is both the perceiving eye and the judging mind. And that it actually is something behind them both and from this spot it can start the journey by one of two roads. And that it uses both at the same time. yet can only use one at time. There might also be occasion when the body shortcuts and never get order from the consciousness but work on a shallower level.

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    In depth psychology consciousness is almost synonymous to Ego. It means that the person has lifted himself out of an instinctual existence and is now capable of making independent decisions and actions.

    For example, I might be tired or unmotivated, but as conscious person I am still able to decide to work, or make plans.

    When a person has a weak ego we actually often ask ourself "Is anybody home?"

    Consciousness is a necessary dissociation from the greater psyche. It makes us a singular person.

    But this is not exactly the same as being aware. But if the Ego gets really weak we actually fall into sleep or fade away from the surroundings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    Ya But what we suggest is that consciousness is both the perceiving eye and the judging mind. And that it actually is something behind them both and from this spot it can start the journey by one of two roads. And that it uses both at the same time. yet can only use one at time. There might also be occasion when the body shortcuts and never get order from the consciousness but work on a shallower level.
    Sure holistic sounds good. Im not familiar with the level behind the perceiving judging level. Unless we are talking about the same thing usuing different vocabulary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    In depth psychology consciousness is almost synonymous to Ego. It means that the person has lifted himself out of an instinctual existence and is now capable of making independent decisions and actions.

    For example, I might be tired or unmotivated, but as conscious person I am still able to decide to work, or make plans.

    When a person has a weak ego we actually often ask ourself "Is anybody home?"

    Consciousness is a necessary dissociation from the greater psyche. It makes us a singular person.

    But this is not exactly the same as being aware. But if the Ego gets really weak we actually fall into sleep or fade away from the surroundings.
    So is that free will, or the apperance of free will? At any rate its the the NTs who I have seen can articulate the differing levels and expression of conciousness with any success. I have my own revelations but I can't describe those as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    So is that free will, or the apperance of free will?
    I would say it can be called free will. And strictly speaking it's the only thing that is really "I", that's why it's called Ego. I might have all kinds of emotional reactions for example, or spontaneous ideas. But since I don't decide to get these they are not "me". They are autonomous psychic phenomena.

    Without the Ego the organism is just acting out its nature. There is no reflexion or control of what's going on.

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    I had some idea that the first choice is whatever it be conscious or not, second if it be seek/destroy or explore/classify and than you can ad into the socionics. Which is the Model T itself. So there is 3 layers really.

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    I think if we have a possibility to in the future calculate type and so, this is an essential to view type in this way.
    Last edited by Tigerfadder; 10-05-2017 at 07:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I would say it can be called free will. And strictly speaking it's the only thing that is really "I", that's why it's called Ego. I might have all kinds of emotional reactions for example, or spontaneous ideas. But since I don't decide to get these they are not "me". They are autonomous psychic phenomena.

    Without the Ego the organism is just acting out its nature. There is no reflexion or control of what's going on.
    I disagree: the ego is the bounded relative. It is not the absolute. Ego always attaches to everything, as you say. A thought is just a thought until it becomes my thought. Yet ego is not the consciousness {in this case I'm defining conciousness as the empty space in the centre of the jar. The place all else plays on. If you haven't experienced it for yourself, yet, it would be hard to relate to this convoluted explanation}. Ego is a part of consciousness that dictates the choice to attach. Consciousness being the holistic whole: a kind of holographic process that happens so quickly it gives the person the impression its all happening at once.

    There is a realm inside of us that is free, aware, and conscious, yet it is not the ego. If this place was not there, then there would never be any redemption. The mind would be trapped by the actions of the ego, and misery would win. That people are reborn all the time each day out of their past/sufferings/actions is proof ego and organism nature is not all there is.

    Ego is not a noun, not a person place or thing. It is a verb, the act​ of *selfing*.
    "Derp."

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    We should start asking questions like, why are some people unconscious. Does it benefit? It is the seek and destroy circle and it is essentially ruin that which work agains you. So by not doing this circle you will end up with a lot of forces agains you but if you do this from time to time you eliminate them. There is no real progress and life without the exploring/classify circle. That is what make more value into the world, a business that create new value from where there were none. Innovation and all that. The winning concept would be to be unconscious hard some of the time and conscious the rest of the time. Doing the opposite might have benefit i yet do not see but, the conscious circle is the good place.

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    So for fun we can make a model of IEI with Model G energy.

    IEI:
    Prioritised blocks:
    Pi, p1: Ni+ maximum energy
    Pi, p2: Si+ minimum energy ↑
    Ji, p1: Fi- optimum energy
    Ji, p2: Ti- pessimum energy ↑

    Rest blocks:
    Pe, p1: Ne- pessimum energy
    Pe, p2: Se- optimum energy ↑
    Je, p1: Fe+ maximum energy
    Je, p2: Te+ minimum energy ↑

    Prioritised blocks have average 3D while Rest blocks have average 2D.


    Edit: Lets quickly make one of dual (SLE) and benefit (LII).

    SLE:
    Prioritised blocks:
    Pe, p1: Se- maximum energy
    Pe, p2: Ne- minimum energy ↑
    Je, p1: Te+ optimum energy
    Je, p2: Fe+ pessimum energy ↑

    Rest blocks:
    Pi, p1: Si+ pessimum energy
    Pi, p2: Ni+ optimum energy ↑
    Ji, p1: Ti- maximum energy
    Ji, p2: Fi- minimum energy ↑


    LII:
    Prioritised blocks:
    Ji, p1: Ti- maximum energy
    Ji, p2: Fi- minimum energy ↑
    Pi, p1: Ni+ optimum energy
    Pi, p2: Si+ pessimum energy ↑

    Rest blocks:
    Je, p1: Te+ pessimum energy
    Je, p2: Fe+ optimum energy ↑
    Pe, p1: Ne- maximum energy
    Pe, p2: Se- minimum energy ↑
    Last edited by Tigerfadder; 10-08-2017 at 01:39 PM.

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    ESI:
    Prioritised blocks:
    Ji, p1: Fi- maximum energy
    Ji, p2: Ti- minimum energy ↑
    Pi, p1: Si+ optimum energy
    Pi, p2: Ni+ pessimum energy ↑

    Rest blocks:
    Je, p1: Fe+ pessimum energy
    Je, p2: Te+ optimum energy ↑
    Pe, p1: Se- maximum energy
    Pe, p2: Ne- minimum energy ↑

    I wonder what the source really is. The first layer before the layer with the two cirlces of
    unconscious and conscious. A mirror? A receiver and transmitter that are pinging? Receiver when the unconscious and conscious when transmitter probably.

    So that is the theory that inspired the model. Im sure it can be tested.
    Last edited by Tigerfadder; 10-08-2017 at 05:29 PM.

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    The higher dimension element have a higher degree of freedom and so p2 will serve p1 and rest block will serve prioritised block.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    In depth psychology consciousness is almost synonymous to Ego. It means that the person has lifted himself out of an instinctual existence and is now capable of making independent decisions and actions.

    For example, I might be tired or unmotivated, but as conscious person I am still able to decide to work, or make plans.

    When a person has a weak ego we actually often ask ourself "Is anybody home?"

    Consciousness is a necessary dissociation from the greater psyche. It makes us a singular person.

    But this is not exactly the same as being aware. But if the Ego gets really weak we actually fall into sleep or fade away from the surroundings.
    When washing plates and such I quickly go unconscious. Than I also usually get bored wanting to get out of the situation and if I continue I am starting to get drained of energy. Its like im unconscious and from time to time i get conscious and observe my unconsciousness. If it make sense...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    When washing plates and such I quickly go unconscious. Than I also usually get bored wanting to get out of the situation and if I continue I am starting to get drained of energy. Its like im unconscious and from time to time i get conscious and observe my unconsciousness. If it make sense...?
    I think consciousness can be described by such expressions as "pull yourself together", "get the job done", "concentrate"

    Jung said that consciousness is an ever-deepening concentration.

    It's really everyday, but unique for humans, and especially developed in higher cultures. (people in advanced careers have well-developed consciousness. Unemployed people or very young people are less conscious.

    You differentiate yourself from the rest of the psyche when you pull yourself together.

    yes, when we are bored we get partially unconscious because the task is nonexistent or too easy.

    Difficulties can promote development of consciousness.

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