Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Fake explanations (and the case of Phlogiston)

  1. #1

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,605
    Mentioned
    264 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Lightbulb Fake explanations (and the case of Phlogiston)

    What is fire, and why does it burn? The 18th century chemistry's answer to this was, "Phlogiston":


    phlogiston [floh-jis-ton, -tuh n]
    1. a substance supposed by 18th-century chemists to exist in all combustible bodies, and to be released in combustion.

    Developed by the German scientist Georg Ernst Stahl early in the 18th century, phlogiston was a dominant chemical concept of the time because it seemed to explain so much in a simple fashion. Stahl believed that every combustible substance contained a universal component of fire, which he named phlogiston, from the Greek word for inflammable. Because a combustible substance such as charcoal lost weight when it burned, Stahl reasoned that this change was due to the loss of its phlogiston component to the air.

    Phlogiston escaped from burning substances as visible fire. As the phlogiston escaped, the burning substances lost phlogiston and so became ash, the "true material". Flames in enclosed containers went out because the air became saturated with phlogiston, and so could not hold any more. Charcoal left little residue upon burning because it was nearly pure phlogiston.

    Of course, one didn't use phlogiston theory to predict the outcome of a chemical transformation. You looked at the result first, then you used phlogiston theory to explain it. It's not that phlogiston theorists predicted a flame would extinguish in a closed container; rather they lit a flame in a container, watched it go out, and then said, "The air must have become saturated with phlogiston." You couldn't even use phlogiston theory to say what you ought not to see; it could explain everything.
    The Rise and Fall of the Phlogiston Theory of Fire
    https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/e...lavoisier.html

    If this sounds familiar, it's because this is how Socionics works and "explains" things. You look at the result first and then explain things in hindsight ("Why, this person's behavior is explained by Fi, and the reason why he is having problems is due to his PoLR" - but that's not actually explaining anything). It's fake causality, it's a fake explanation. You could call it pre-science, but it's pre- in a way that it's fake and bogus.

    You may laugh at the result now, because you now know that the real explanation is not "phlogiston", but it had something to do with air, or "oxygen" and a form of chemical reaction called oxidation and combustion, which was correctly explained by late-18th century chemistry when the theory of phlogiston was refuted.

    Fuels "burned" when fuel + oxygen was oxidized in the form of combustion (Fuel + O2 -> CO2 + H2O) and this chemical reaction generates light energy and kinetic energy, and it emits light and heat and this is what we see and feel as "fire". If you want to know what fire "is", then you'd have to look into physics and not chemistry.

    Sure enough, this was the correct explanation, and it correctly predicted things every single time. Fantastic!

    --

    But we have been trapped in this "fake" explanation for thousands of years until we have developed modern science with better tools to understand things, because this is how our brains worked due to our history of evolution. Our brains are inundated with biases and errors and quick conclusions; it only produced what is "good enough" with the amount of energy required to process things.

    Modern research suggests that humans think about cause and effect using something like the directed acyclic graphs (DAGs) of Bayes nets. Because it rained, the sidewalk is wet; because the sidewalk is wet, it is slippery:

    [Rain] -> [Sidewalk wet] -> [Sidewalk slippery]

    From this we can infer—or, in a Bayes net, rigorously calculate in probabilities—that when the sidewalk is slippery, it probably rained; but if we already know that the sidewalk is wet, learning that the sidewalk is slippery tells us nothing more about whether it rained.

    Why is fire hot and bright when it burns?

    ["Phlogiston"] -> [Fire hot and bright]

    It feels like an explanation. It's represented using the same cognitive data format. But the human mind does not automatically detect when a cause has an unconstraining arrow to its effect. Worse, thanks to hindsight bias, it may feel like the cause constrains the effect, when it was merely fitted to the effect.


    A good way to distinguish between a fake explanation and a real explanation, is that it can correctly predict things in the future. Even better if it can actually explain the phenomenon. Then it can predict things with even greater precision and accuracy.
    Last edited by Singu; 11-05-2017 at 04:01 AM.

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Seattle, Washington
    TIM
    ILI-Ni 8 sx/sp
    Posts
    175
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    http://lesswrong.com/lw/is/fake_causality/ Wow I literally read this 10 years ago and still know Socionics isn't fake causality. I told you I'm 10 years ahead of you.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,605
    Mentioned
    264 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hatchback176 View Post
    Wow I literally read this 10 years ago and still know Socionics isn't fake causality.
    Then maybe you're just thick or stupid.

    Real causality is "Fi will cause or create this kind of behavior", not "This behavior was caused by Fi".

    It took you 10 years and still not understand real causality. I'm not sure why you think that's something to be proud of.
    Last edited by Singu; 11-07-2017 at 06:08 AM.

  4. #4
    Slade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    138
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Then maybe you're just thick or stupid.

    Real causality is "Fi will cause or create this kind of behavior", not "This behavior was caused by Fi".

    It took you 10 years and still not understand real causality. I'm not sure why you think that's something to be proud of.
    Except Socionics has a predictive model of relationships. According to you, if the predictive model is correct then it would be a good explanation, so what if I told you that in my experience I found it correct? Furthermore, if I were to tell you to prove to me that Socionics was fake and bogus (which for some reason you seem to have a high confidence in) how would you do that?

    I think you are missing the point of this theory, and your efforts might be better spent elsewhere Singu.
    Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Seattle, Washington
    TIM
    ILI-Ni 8 sx/sp
    Posts
    175
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    You're on a Socionics forum. Cause-and-effect is the domain of Ti. Ask 4 people with Ti-dominant functions on this website to construct their model of Fi for you. Metrics and frameworks such as 'empirical reasoning' are Te. Now ask 4 people that are Te-dominant functions on this website to list a way of evaluating those 4 independent models for social consensus. Social consensus is the domain of Fe. Now ask 4 people that are Fe-dominant functions on this website to evaluate the aspects of the 4 independent models and 4 lists that they think contribute to agreeableness in a social context. etc etc.

    This is how you would approach Socionics given the huge resources of this website if you had a brain, Singu. You need to get a clue. (Needs are the domain of Fi, you moron)

  6. #6

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,605
    Mentioned
    264 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Slade View Post
    Except Socionics has a predictive model of relationships. According to you, if the predictive model is correct then it would be a good explanation, so what if I told you that in my experience I found it correct? Furthermore, if I were to tell you to prove to me that Socionics was fake and bogus (which for some reason you seem to have a high confidence in) how would you do that?
    Socionics can ever only explain things in hindsight... You can only say "This behavior was caused by Fi", if you had first explained the mechanism behind it, and explained what kind of behavior Fi will cause from logically following that mechanism. How can say that it was Fi that caused it, when it hasn't even been explained what kind of behavior Fi will cause? Highly irrational. We have at best, correlated some behavior with "Fi". We know that at best, we have found more things about "Fi". But it can't make forward PREDICTIONS from those data alone, since there is no complex mechanical explanation, like the one you'd have with chemistry and combustion.

    In the same manner, you can only say that "If you put Ti ego and Fi ego in the same room, they will conflict" if you had explained the mechanism behind it, and exactly why and how they will conflict, and precisely what will cause the conflict. Otherwise, saying that "The conflict was due to Fi and Ti" is irrational and not a real explanation of the phenomenon. It was an over-reach, you can't make forward predictions from going backwards.

  7. #7
    Slade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    138
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Socionics can ever only explain things in hindsight... You can only say "This behavior was caused by Fi", if you had first explained the mechanism behind it, and explained what kind of behavior Fi will cause from logically following that mechanism. How can say that it was Fi that caused it, when it hasn't even been explained what kind of behavior Fi will cause? Highly irrational. We have at best, correlated some behavior with "Fi". We know that at best, we have found more things about "Fi". But it can't make forward PREDICTIONS from those data alone, since there is no complex mechanical explanation, like the one you'd have with chemistry and combustion.
    People don't get into conflicts because of behavior, people get into conflicts because of cognitive differences (and their energetic qualities) that form incompatible ways of communicating which often translates into behavior. You don't need to know how someone will behave, but how that person's cognition works with another's in order to get a decent sense of compatibility.

    Intertype relationship theory is a forward predictive model, so you invalidated your own point. You don't need complex mechanical explanations to make accurate predictions, I have no idea where this comes from. I also have no idea why you think that explanation would be give by anyone competent in Socionics. That isn't a real explanation, but neither do those explanations you proposed delve into Socionics theory.
    Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type

  8. #8

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,605
    Mentioned
    264 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Sigh... I just explained why Socionics is not actually a predictive model in a real sense, and hence why it's "fake" causality. But I will say that perhaps it was vague.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slade View Post
    Intertype relationship theory is a forward predictive model, so you invalidated your own point. You don't need complex mechanical explanations to make accurate predictions, I have no idea where this comes from. I also have no idea why you think that explanation would be give by anyone competent in Socionics. That isn't a real explanation, but neither do those explanations you proposed delve into Socionics theory.
    ['?'] -> [Certain behavior]

    How do you explain this certain behavior? What cognitive mechanisms are involved? You can add "Fi!", but that's obviously not a real explanation. Saying "Fi" only goes BACKWARDS, not forward, since it hasn't been explained what Fi will cause in the first place.

    We can also understand this from causality:

    [Rain] -> [Street wet] -> [Street slippery]

    How would you explain this when you see it?:

    ['?'] -> [Street wet]

    You can say, "It rained!", but obviously that's not necessarily the answer. It could be that somebody had watered the street, or it could be something else.

    ['?'] -> [Conflict]

    How would you explain this? You could say "Ti and Fi!", but that's only an explanation AFTER the fact. It hadn't actually predicted anything.

  9. #9
    Bertrand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    5,896
    Mentioned
    486 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    This reminds me of Trump shouting "x is fake news" only in regard to any news that caught his attention for being , first of all, a credible and real set of facts that happens to reflect poorly on him.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,605
    Mentioned
    264 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    This reminds me of Trump shouting "x is fake news" only in regard to any news that caught his attention for being , first of all, a credible and real set of facts that happens to reflect poorly on him.
    I don't think you actually understand what is being said here. What reminded you of Trump is only the word "fake", and you've made some random associations.

  11. #11
    Bertrand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    5,896
    Mentioned
    486 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    the point is you present a conspicuous pattern in what you deride as fake, which suggests the underlying organizing principle is anything but fake

    it says more about what's going on than the literal meaning of the words used, quite the opposite in fact

    "x is fake" might as well be "x is true" given the complete picture of things, and how the pattern of "x is fake" fits into things

    the things you're struggling with are so idiosyncratic to your own understanding it really can't be taken at face value. do you think Gulenko sits around waiting for some random to explain to him the basics of logical reasoning like a moron? its like you have to assume so much to even make the arguments you're making with a straight face it comes across like Trump thinking anyone takes his statements as something other than a confirmation of "fake news" being real bad news about Trump at this point. there's a startling lack of something that's for sure

  12. #12

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,605
    Mentioned
    264 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    the point is you present a conspicuous pattern in what you deride as fake, which suggests the underlying organizing principle is anything but fake

    it says more about what's going on than the literal meaning of the words used, quite the opposite in fact

    "x is fake" might as well be "x is true" given the complete picture of things, and how the pattern of "x is fake" fits into things
    ...Still not getting it.

    Let me break it down for you.

    Socionics is a theory based on real observations, but not real explanations. It may be making the correct observations, but it's not enough to say, "This is an observation that I've made, and here's an explanation for it", because there could be an infinite number of explanations. So the question is, what makes a good explanation out of all the bad explanations?

    Here are a few clues.

    Good explanations:

    1. A good explanation can accurately predict what will happen IN THE FUTURE. And by "predict", I don't mean in the sense that "This observation fits in with the theory". That's a BACKWARD prediction. I mean by predict, it can predict the "unseen", the what has yet to be seen. A real prediction is not necessarily based on anything that has happened in the past. What has happened in the past will not necessarily be repeated again in the future. It's not enough to say, "This has happened in the past, so it will happen again in the future".

    For example, there has never been an atomic bomb explosion in the history of mankind, or even the history of the Earth for that matter, but nevertheless, an atomic bomb has been accurately predicted. And this prediction was possible, because it has accurately described its UNDERLINING MECHANISMS.

    Which comes to the next point...

    2. Its explanations are "hard to vary". It can explain its complex chain of mechanisms that logically follow. And if you change even one detail, the whole thing would fall apart and stop working. Also, the definitions or the explanations of the mechanisms are not overly broad or vague. It can't just "fit into anything". It doesn't just say, "This here may do this or that, it may be located here or there, it may cause this or that". It's not a "mysterious" force or a substance that is said to be able to explain everything. Its purposes are specific, and precise. It can also explain why, and how. It doesn't just wrap things around in a "black box", never explaining how it works.

    --

    So the theory of phlogiston is a good example. It is said that this "phlogiston" explains why the fire burns. It created fire in a container, watched it burn and soon enough, the fire went out, because there was no more air. And so it said, "Well, the air absorbed all the phlogiston... and hence why it stopped burning. This accurately predicts why it stopped burning, and hence it proves the theory of phlogiston..."

    Obviously, that's not the real explanation. The "phlogiston" didn't get absorbed by the air, there was merely a chemical reaction which we now call oxidation or combustion. The oxygen was merely converted to CO2. This "phlogiston" had nothing to do with it, and hence why it's a fake explanation. This mysterious substance didn't even cause the fire to burn.

    You might be tempted to think, "Well the theory of phlogiston WORKS! It can accurately predict that the fire will go out when there's no air, so what's wrong?". It stops working when it attempts to make a FORWARD prediction, so far it has only made a BACKWARD prediction. According to the phlogiston theory, the phlogiston "escapes" the material when it has been burnt, so the material should be lighter. But some metals are actually heavier, since the burning is a process of oxidation, it adds more oxygen. The theory of oxidation better explains the process of burning. We can clearly say that phlogiston theory is not the real explanation. It does not logically follow.

    This is very analogous to a Socionics explanation. "I have observed that Ti and Fi conflict in the past, and so hence they will conflict again in the future" "This here, we observe a conflict between two people. And this is explained by the fact that Ti and Fi conflicts. This accurately confirms the event predicted by the theory, and hence it proves the theory of Socionics..."

    So since Socionics, just like the theory of phlogiston, can't do any of the things mentioned above, has no good explanations, has only made backward predictions, which is why I think, Socionics may overwhelming be a theory of fake explanation.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •