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Thread: Calling All Feminists

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    Quote Originally Posted by hybris theory View Post
    Oh nice, these data are actually interesting, but not comprehensive of the states of things. We know in most countries males suicide more than females, and that's linked to the killing method they chose, men opt for more effective methods and die, women opt for less extreme methods and can get rescued, but there's no study to prove the number of people who get rescued.
    As for the psychology, it's said that it's still women to have the more suicidal thoughts. It would be interesting to find out WHY all these people want to kill themselves, and probably the cause then will get to be linked again to a gender disparity. It not only creates division, but even a lot of expectations that many people can't follow, and then comes depression.

    As for males dying in the workplace, that's definitely horrible. A thought to all of them. Let's not forget as well all the girls who get abused daily and bought to become sexworkers, and all the ones who get killed just to satisfy a man.

    The Femen movement, where girls were shaking their breasts freely around Europe, was indeed born with this intent, to make people aware of the kind of tourism that some countries receive, it's only sexual. Girls are the product to buy, when not children.
    You feel obligated to find some kind of moral equivalence. Why won't you just accept the reality of what I am talking about? There are inequalities in society that affect men as well. I accept that some of them are inevitable because of the work that men tend to do, or the lifestyle choices men tend to make. However, unlike feminists I am not expecting the government to forcibly redress unequal outcomes in life in my favour, thus making a bad situation even worse.

    We need to stop this perverse race to the bottom where everyone competes for victim status. Yes, the number of women killing themselves is a problem for society. However the number of men killing ourselves is a problem as well, and I somehow get the impression that this particular gender inequality doesn't concern you.

    Let us be clear here. The behaviour, the actions taken by feminists suggest that they seek to promote the interests of a particular group of people in society - women who sign up to a particular ideology. Now in principle, this is fine; I have nothing against lobbyists. However, feminists like you should stop using empty rhetoric to mislead impressionable young women about your true objectives.

    What separates you from any other group of Democrats?
    Last edited by Cuivienen; 09-12-2017 at 12:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuivienen View Post
    You feel obligated to find some kind of moral equivalence. Why won't you just accept the reality of what I am talking about? There are inequalities in society that affect men as well, and some of them are inevitable because of the work that men tend to do, or the lifestyle choices men tend to make. However, unlike feminists I am not expecting the government to forcibly redress unequal outcomes in life in my favour, thus making a bad situation even worse.

    Let us be clear here. I am tired of the hypocrisy displayed by feminists whenever men's issues are mentioned. Your behaviour and actions suggest that you seek to promote the interests of one group, women, at the expense of all others. I understand this is probably the natural way of life, but in practice such an approach is similar to the Chamber of Commerce.

    Women killing themselves is a problem. But men killing themselves is a problem as well. We need to stop this perverse race to the bottom where everyone competes for victim status.
    No, YOU felt obligated to find a moral equivalence. I answered. Stop projecting.

    No doubts there are inequalities in every aspect of life, injustice though is not in the disparity bond, I am of the idea that that's what has to be worked up. Reread my comment because in no way I promote the interest of a group in order to supress another, lol. That's you.

    It was you to come in here throwing bias over a movement that you don't understand.

    Have a consciousness analysis, aye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinoline View Post
    No, YOU felt obligated to find a moral equivalence. I answered. Stop projecting.
    There is no equivalence between the gender pay gap and disparities in suicide rates or life expectancy. This should go without saying, but being paid less for less work won't kill you.

    Also, residual inequality is a natural consequence of the choices people make in life. If you majored in feminist dance studies, rather than electrical engineering, complaining about low earning power will make you look rather foolish. I brought my two issues (suicide and life expectancy) not to create a moral equivalence, but simply to demonstrate how little empathy feminists have for people who aren't a part of their in-group. As I predicted, you walked right into my trap and are in dire need of some good PR.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinoline View Post
    No doubts there are inequalities in every aspect of life, injustice though is not in the disparity bond, I am of the idea that that's what has to be worked up. Reread my comment because in no way I promote the interest of a group in order to supress another, lol. That's you.
    I am simply taking your ideas to their logical conclusion. If you're concerned about social justice and want people to be equal, then here is what you can do if you wish to create that state in practice.

    I have noticed that IEE/EII seem to struggle accepting that their good motives do not always lead to good outcomes for other people. Sometimes, the ends simply do not justify the means required.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinoline View Post
    It was you to come in here throwing bias over a movement that you don't understand.
    You know, disagreement isn't necessarily proof of ignorance.

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    Oh yeah Cuivienen, you're right.

    The number of women abused every day by men is not important, because men suicide more. The number of women sex slaves and the cultural injustice they face is nothing compared to how many men die everyday making their legal jobs.

    There's no disparity, of course, men have it harder, don't they? ;; )

    ...Now, would you join a black pride group to teach them how much they're delusional, that their skin colour deserves all the racism they face everyday and there's no comparison with them and a white person?

    I suspect you wouldn't. So what makes you do the same for feminism? Oh right, men have it harder ;; )

    I really liked how you could bring up all the struggles of men (so more real than what women have to go through), ask for compassion, and when I redirect the topic to women, I can't do that... lol

    where's your compassion?

    fake (:

    ps. Bias ain't knowledge, but I'm aware we're on internet... aha

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinoline View Post
    Oh yeah Cuivienen, you're right.

    The number of women abused every day by men is not important, because men suicide more. The number of women sex slaves and the cultural injustice they face is nothing compared to how many men die everyday making their legal jobs.

    There's no disparity, of course, men have it harder, don't they? ;; )

    ...Now, would you join a black pride group to teach them how much they're delusional, that their skin colour deserves all the racism they face everyday and there's no comparison with them and a white person?

    I suspect you wouldn't. So what makes you do the same for feminism? Oh right, men have it harder ;; )

    I really liked how you could bring up all the struggles of men (so more real than what women have to go through), ask for compassion, and when I redirect the topic to women, I can't do that... lol

    where's your compassion?

    fake (:

    ps. Bias ain't knowledge, but I'm aware we're on internet... aha
    i think hes trying to point out that, while feminism claims to call for equality between the sexes, it doesnt care whatsoever of the problems men face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    i think hes trying to point out that, while feminism claims to call for equality between the sexes, it doesnt care whatsoever of the problems men face.
    Thanks for explaining to me what he thinks (:
    The problems men face are of much concern, and even obviously related to a gender inequality. Now it would be nice to solve all the world problems at once, but one thing at a time seems to work too.
    I don't know of feminists that couldn't care less of what men face, but even if that were to be the case, they're still denouncing their real problems, they might seem little things to you, and that's probably because you can't understand what it means to belong to the "weaker" part.

    I'm even sorry to say it but you can't really think that to commit suicide or dying at work is worse than being sexually abused or killed. We all want safe jobs and health care, but the decision to end one's life, is something I wouldn't condemn, neither dying on a unsafe workplace seems as brutal as being abused, to me. For deaths at work there are refunds and insurances (usually), what's there for women who get beaten up by their partners? Russian blessings be with you? That's a part of the truth, too. Is it less important than suicides? Is it stupid to condemn such behaviors, infront of all the others problems? Who's to decide what's worse anyway, and what puts you in the position to think so?
    Why are girls that defend their own stances considered crazy, moreover?
    Insane.

    It's really absurd to think all the problems of this rotting world were caused by "feminists".
    Last edited by pinoline; 09-12-2017 at 05:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinoline View Post
    Thanks for explaining to me what he thinks (:
    The problems men face are of much concern, and even obviously related to a gender inequality.
    .
    Feminism is good for men because:

    We want rapists to stop raping (rather than putting blame on the victim) regardless of who they rape (that includes men) and who rapes (that includes women). No means no for everyone.
    We want to take pressure off men to:
    a) Pay for dinners
    b) Buy rings
    c) Be ridiculed for being stay-at-home-parents, for making less money than their female partners, for crying, for being vulnerable
    d) Look masculine and "buff" (we want everyone to look however the want to look)
    e) Feel obligated to be the protector and provider
    f) Feel obligated to always "be strong"
    g) Always have to perform sexually
    h) Worry about how well endowed they are

    And if there is anything else, please add.

    So stop saying that feminists don't care about men.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuivienen View Post
    If you want another reason to dislike feminists, look at the way they view the inequalities in society that negatively affect men. Here are some examples: men account for over 70% of suicide victims, and over 90% of workplace deaths in the U.S.. We also have a significantly lower life expectancy than women. Unlike the "gender pay gap", which is entirely due to different lifestyle choices between men and women, these inequalities are real, and they kill.
    Well, you can't have one without the other. Men choose to work in more dangerous jobs where they are more likely to be injured or killed in the workplace, but also receive higher wages for it. They also choose to work in positions requiring long stressful hours, and that stress takes a toll causing earlier deaths, but they also get paid more for doing so. As more women have entered the workplace and especially among those who take more stressful or dangerous jobs the life expectancy gap narrows along with the pay gap.

    In other words there are trade-offs and it comes down in both cases to lifestyle choices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Of course it does not apply everywhere, but I would still say women overall have a harder time "proving competence" and having their looks factor into equations (positive or negative).
    Everyone's looks factor into equations, even men's. To say its 'harder' comparatively is just ignorant.
    Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type

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    There's just so much entitlement nowadays. Ultimately, no one is going to fix your shit. There is discrimination everywhere. We have basic human right covered by the law, now its our job to make this place a world we want to be in. Everyone wants to talk and no one wants to listen. I've lost count of how many agendas are being pushed, and ideologies shoved down people's throats. Kids are starving, disasters are occurring, meanwhile people don't want to get out of their special snowflake bubbles. It's quite honestly disgusting.

    The best way to further feminist agenda is to become a respectable woman. If the world was filled with these, men's attitudes would naturally evolve to support this. You can't force respect on to other people, by law, or otherwise. Ironically, these sorts of women, for the most part in my experience, have had little to nothing to do with the feminist movement. I think that its the weaker, illogical, and dis-empowered women that tend to flock to this. This is true with not only feminism, but many other different types of ideology. Ideology is frequently just an escape, and an outlet for problems people can't handle. Which is fine, it can be useful, however more often then not, it tends to become consuming beyond reason and creating problems for others. It's much more beneficial to just focus on yourself and help out where you can than trying to police the world.
    Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade View Post
    There's just so much entitlement nowadays. Ultimately, no one is going to fix your shit. There is discrimination everywhere. We have basic human right covered by the law, now its our job to make this place a world we want to be in. Everyone wants to talk and no one wants to listen. I've lost count of how many agendas are being pushed, and ideologies shoved down people's throats. Kids are starving, disasters are occurring, meanwhile people don't want to get out of their special snowflake bubbles. It's quite honestly disgusting.

    The best way to further feminist agenda is to become a respectable woman. If the world was filled with these, men's attitudes would naturally evolve to support this. You can't force respect on to other people, by law, or otherwise. Ironically, these sorts of women, for the most part in my experience, have had little to nothing to do with the feminist movement. I think that its the weaker, illogical, and dis-empowered women that tend to flock to this. This is true with not only feminism, but many other different types of ideology. Ideology is frequently just an escape, and an outlet for problems people can't handle. Which is fine, it can be useful, however more often then not, it tends to become consuming beyond reason and creating problems for others. It's much more beneficial to just focus on yourself and help out where you can than trying to police the world.
    Right, and until women are not respectable, what do you even expect? Humanity? Ahaha?

    "Oh the world sucks so much!, who has time to focus on children dying?, on wars, on abuse?, we all have our daily bills to pay!" boo hoo.

    Why am I not surprised of the common low understanding of the conditions at stake?

    Do you people support racism? Cool. Why are you blind infront of sexism then?

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    There is not really any reform you can make to liberalism to make the legacy racism/legacy sexism acceptable. The system should be destroyed (actually, the system will be destroyed, so)
    go on type me I fuckin dare u

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    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    There is not really any reform you can make to liberalism to make the legacy racism/legacy sexism acceptable. The system should be destroyed (actually, the system will be destroyed, so)
    The system is definitely being destroyed... this is an era of transition. Machines are bringing us there

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade View Post
    The best way to further feminist agenda is to become a respectable woman. If the world was filled with these, men's attitudes would naturally evolve to support this. You can't force respect on to other people, by law, or otherwise.
    So if the women aren't treated well, it's the fault of women?

    It doesn't matter how respectable a woman is, since you can just force unilateral inequality by sheer power of force. And that's exactly what happens. There is a real power structure within a society, and that power often tends to serve those who are already in power. That power can use influence, money, propaganda, direct and indirect, subtle and obvious threats and intimidations to keep itself in positions of power. In most societies, that power tends to be concentrated on mostly men.

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    What is a "respectable" woman?
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    GOLD Member Cuivienen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Well, you can't have one without the other. Men choose to work in more dangerous jobs where they are more likely to be injured or killed in the workplace, but also receive higher wages for it. They also choose to work in positions requiring long stressful hours, and that stress takes a toll causing earlier deaths, but they also get paid more for doing so. As more women have entered the workplace and especially among those who take more stressful or dangerous jobs the life expectancy gap narrows along with the pay gap.
    I agree with you that many men make lifestyle choices which are high risk / high reward. However, my point is that women, on average, are more likely to choose paths in life that are low risk / low reward and this explains why there is a gender pay gap. It also explains why more men die at work, among other things. I don't personally have an issue with this, and find it distasteful to see feminists shame the many women who are not interested in competing with men. In fact, a woman is more likely to be promoted by a man than she is by another woman. Basic evo psych: we see the other sex as mates and our own sex as rivals.

    What pisses me off is the hypocrisy of feminists. Most of these chicks get a useless degree like gender studies (because engineering, finance and tech are like, soo boring, OMG) and then they blame the patriarchy, rather than themselves, for their low market value.

    Talk about an entitlement complex.

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    In other words there are trade-offs and it comes down in both cases to lifestyle choices.
    You and I seem to have a similar worldview, we're just articulating it differently. While I believe that we as a society should try to help everyone (feminists included) realize whatever potential they have, it is inevitable that we won't end up in the same place. Nobody would feel an impetus to create and innovate if we did.
    Last edited by Cuivienen; 09-13-2017 at 12:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinoline View Post
    Oh yeah Cuivienen, you're right.

    The number of women abused every day by men is not important, because men suicide more. The number of women sex slaves and the cultural injustice they face is nothing compared to how many men die everyday making their legal jobs.
    I never said that the women abused by men every day shouldn't be defended and supported.

    However, here's the funny thing. Most of the wife-beaters and drug dealers in America voted for Hillary!

    Look, here is your problem. You assume that because I disagree with you, I must be an evil, unprincipled person. It is impossible to talk about feminism in depth with you because you keep turning my criticisms in a moral issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinoline View Post
    There's no disparity, of course, men have it harder, don't they? ;; )
    Shit, nobody is saying men or women have it harder, stop trying to paint people as victims. All I am saying is that men have unique problems to face in life as well, and we deserve to be taken more seriously - especially by people like you, who pontificate about equality and social justice. Because you try to change others, you are much more vulnerable to accusations of hypocrisy than I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinoline View Post
    ...Now, would you join a black pride group to teach them how much they're delusional, that their skin colour deserves all the racism they face everyday and there's no comparison with them and a white person?
    If black pride groups spent more time promoting their culture and heritage, and less time destroying the private property of other black people, I would be a lot more supportive of them. I am not into virtue signalling; actions speak much louder than words.

    You are such a tool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuivienen View Post
    I never said that the women abused by men every day shouldn't be defended and supported.

    However, here's the funny thing. Most of the wife-beaters and drug dealers in America voted for Hillary!

    Look, here is your problem. You assume that because I disagree with you, I must be an evil, unprincipled person. It is impossible to talk about feminism in depth with you because you keep turning my criticisms in a moral issue.



    Shit, nobody is saying men or women have it harder, stop trying to paint people as victims. All I am saying is that men have unique problems to face in life as well, and we deserve to be taken more seriously - especially by people like you, who pontificate about equality and social justice. Because you try to change others, you are much more vulnerable to accusations of hypocrisy than I am.



    If black pride groups spent more time promoting their culture and heritage, and less time destroying the private property of other black people, I would be a lot more supportive of them. I am not into virtue signalling; actions speak much louder than words.

    You are such a tool.
    When an idiot insults me I know I did a good job! Thank ya! -)

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    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    So:

    A critical part of making men and women equal is by balancing the sexual-social rights/duties of both sexes. The harsh truth is that if you want to live in equality - and some people do not - you need to address imbalances that you might think are otherwise natural.
    As they say: the law gives both the rich and the poor man the freedom to sleep under a bridge. Adapt it for feminism: the law gives both man and woman the freedom to give birth to a child. Our society imposes demands on women that it simply doesn't impose on men. A socialist feminist approach has the practical and intellectual muscle that liberal feminism doesn't to overcome these demands.*

    Constructing equality comes in two parts:

    The first, and easiest, is to provide for women the same freedom that men have - the freedom to ignore the immediate biological demands of life. Cheap tampons (or whatever you people put to stop it bleeding, idk), free and easily available birth control, et cetera et cetera. This is kind of why it's frustrating when people post pictures of the "female equivalent of a male product that is exactly the same but more expensive." Cosmetics aren't a biological demand. The tampon tax is a good example of a sexist and obviously wrong policy that we could stop tomorrow. Our society needs to stop obsessing about what women do with their sexual lives. Part of living a fulfilling and satisfying social life is your sexual life. Men's sexual lives are almost entirely unregulated and women should have the same freedom too.

    So that's all well and good, but it gets more complicated from there - most young-generation males probably already believe the above anyway. The other aspect is work, and that's where liberal feminism falls flat and marxist feminism has real answers, because of their differing perspectives on work. Liberalism has a narrow-approach to defining what work is - selling labour in exchange for money from an employer. But on top of all the hours worked in a week at a workplace, there's also work at home - housework - and work with children. It's impossible to compensate people for this because it can't be recorded, but it is obviously a form of labour. The answer is to communalise work that is traditionally unpaid for women.

    Free communal launderettes, subsidised communal canteens or food courts, free or near-free childcare facilities and programs. One success of the left-wing government in this country was the free childcare program that allowed single mothers to send their kids to childcare so that they could go to work, have an economic life, and generally free themselves of the biological demands of being a woman (i.e. child-rearing.) Obviously the right-wing government defunded this program as soon as they got into office (tfw when Conservatives love "the family" but children are always the first target of their fiscal cuts )

    A socialist society in which the working class collectively own the means of production offers actual equality. Women and men can share the economic and social decision making processes at a local level. Liberal feminism on the other hand makes no sense: just watch as you vote a woman into office who will then go and defund your health services, slash the regulations that force your employer to treat you like a human, and send your sons and daughters to die on foreign soil for the sake of a pipeline.

    * Society also imposes some demands on men that it doesn't on women, and those should be equalised too.

    That's my problem with intersectional-liberal feminism. By focusing on the experiences of granularised groups, attention is drawn away from the structures which cause inequality and exploitation, and towards the subject demands of the people who experience it. But that inequality and exploitation will remain until the structure is torn down.
    My overwhelming experience is that feminists do not consider the implications of their ideology in practice.

    Your first paragraph goes to the essence of what I am talking about. You simply cannot create an equal society without removing psychological sex differences in behaviour. However, the truth is that feminists don't really want to do that. Why? Well, the great majority of feminists (as this forum amply demonstrates) are IEE or EII. Infantile type women. Your typical feminist is highly anxious, emotionally reactive and reluctant to take any risks in life. Romantically, well...she is flighty and afraid of closure, seeing all the possibilities and none of the outcomes. Ti and Se PoLRs are common.

    Imagine you are a woman attracted to stoic, emotionally reticent men - men who are solid, quiet, reliable and a bit goofy. Now I understand that women vary a lot in their preferences, but it makes little sense for a feminist to assail traditional gender roles, as a complex code of chivalry plus taboos on overt male sexuality suits the men they'd actually find attractive. I imagine some polite, serious but straightforward/earthy guy holding a bunch of flowers. By contrast, time after time I see feminists showing contempt for emotional dramatics in men. They absolutely hate brashness, intrigue and intensity - to be shocking or irreverent, as I am, is totally unacceptable. Walking up to a feminist, saying "So is it going to be beer or wine? Tell me what you drink, and I'll tell you who you are." isn't going to work haha. You will probably just be accused of sexual harassment.

    I kind of pity the feminists in a way. They seem like a group of depressed, bitter chicks who just can't figure out how to be happy. However the truth is that they'd get more respect by changing themselves, rather than preaching to other people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuivienen View Post
    My overwhelming experience is that feminists do not consider the implications of their ideology in practice.

    Your first paragraph goes to the essence of what I am talking about. You simply cannot create an equal society without removing psychological sex differences in behaviour. However, the truth is that feminists don't really want to do that. Why? Well, the great majority of feminists (as this forum amply demonstrates) are IEE or EII. Infantile type women. Your typical feminist is highly anxious, emotionally reactive and reluctant to take any risks in life. Romantically, well...she is flighty and afraid of closure, seeing all the possibilities and none of the outcomes. Ti and Se PoLRs are common.

    Imagine you are a woman attracted to stoic, emotionally reticent men - men who are solid, quiet, reliable and a bit goofy. Now I understand that women vary a lot in their preferences, but it makes little sense for a feminist to assail traditional gender roles, as a complex code of chivalry plus taboos on overt male sexuality suits the men they'd actually find attractive. I imagine some polite, serious but straightforward/earthy guy holding a bunch of flowers. By contrast, time after time I see feminists showing contempt for emotional dramatics in men. They absolutely hate brashness, intrigue and intensity - to be shocking or irreverent, as I am, is totally unacceptable. Walking up to a feminist, saying "So is it going to be beer or wine? Tell me what you drink, and I'll tell you who you are." isn't going to work haha. You will probably just be accused of sexual harassment.

    I kind of pity the feminists in a way. They seem like a group of depressed, bitter chicks who just can't figure out how to be happy. However the truth is that they'd get more respect by changing themselves, rather than preaching to other people.
    I never really come across such women in my part of the real world. They sound awful. :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    I never really come across such women in my part of the real world. They sound awful. :/
    Haha, I envy you.

    Until last year I was in university (I studied Music and Marketing). My majors were very male, but I did a few English papers to further my academic writing, and let me tell you, feminist activism was everywhere. Last year I tried to break it in music radio and music journalism, but I think my sexual humor and brashness put a few too many artiste snowflakes off. I now realise that with my kind of personality, it's much better to just keep my head low for a while, and absorb the skills I need to start my own business.

    However I've seen first hand the ideological biases which saturate the media in my country. It is breathtaking how delusional, self-righteous and preachy many of these people are. It isn't just women, but it is mostly women who behave in this way. They believe they know what is best for you, and if you disagree, well, you're just a narrow-minded bigot. Perhaps I have been overexposed to this crap because of the industry I'm trying to find work in (arts & entertainment), but my point is, smug chicks definitely exist, and they are trouble.

    I live in a very Delta-heavy society - you are meant to keep your head down, be happy, polite and not express anything dramatic or provocative. This is a problem because music is meant to shock, tease and entertain you, not just give you a peaceful easy free love feeling to soothe your anxieties.

    Hopefully I will meet people here who feel the same way, but more and more I feel my future lies elsewhere.
    Last edited by Cuivienen; 09-13-2017 at 02:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuivienen View Post
    I agree with you that many men make lifestyle choices which are high risk / high reward. However, my point is that women, on average, are more likely to choose paths in life that are low risk / low reward and this explains why there is a gender pay gap. It also explains why more men die at work, among other things.
    That's also what I was saying. It sounded like you were saying that the higher work-related deaths and shorter lifespans were unrelated to choices they made. But yes, the pay gap and life-expectancy gap move together. Men tend to be more willing to take on heavier workloads, more stress and more risk than women are and are rewarded for that, but also pay for it with their health. Women tend to look for a different set of rewards such as more time off or flexible schedules, etc. They also tend to be less assertive in asking for pay raises. (As a general trend, and just to point out to anyone with anecdotes to the contrary, a trend just means as a general whole and doesn't speak to specific cases where this won't apply. Wage gaps and life expectancy are also measured as trends of the whole population and won't apply to specific cases.)

    I don't personally have an issue with this, and find it distasteful to see feminists shame the many women who are not interested in competing with men. In fact, a woman is more likely to be promoted by a man than she is by another woman. Basic evo psych: we see the other sex as mates and our own sex as rivals.

    What pisses me off is the hypocrisy of feminists. Most of these chicks get a useless degree like gender studies (because engineering, finance and tech are like, soo boring, OMG) and then they blame the patriarchy, rather than themselves, for their low market value.

    Talk about an entitlement complex.

    You and I seem to have a similar worldview, we're just articulating it differently. While I believe that we as a society should try to help everyone (feminists included) realize whatever potential they have, it is inevitable that we won't end up in the same place. Nobody would feel an impetus to create and innovate if we did.
    I'm often surprised by the very different experiences people have and approaches people take. Growing up I was often the only female in whatever I was doing as apparently I had interests that are more common among males. This never bothered me, it's just how it was and I was fine with it. But, there's a woman I know who I went to school with and is a facebook friend who is interestingly different. In college I went into the sciences and she went into tech at the same school. I didn't see any discrimination against women, and if anything saw more cases where things like affirmative action made things unequal in an opposite way (well-qualified men passed over in favor of less qualified women for example).

    She was instead for the first time in her life in a field dominated by men, and she immediately reacted as though this was WRONG and needed to be corrected. So, she is constantly posting about how to get girls involved in tech and open up opportunities for them, and lots of ideas on gender equality, starting from the toys they play with and on and on. For her, society is holding girls and women back. But, I wonder then, if it's society, why are some of us immune? She reacted to a situation of being in the minority in a completely different way than I did. I'm not sure why this is. Is there more sexism in tech for some reason? Am I just oblivious? And why is it bad to be in the minority in a field? Why does everything have to be equal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    That's also what I was saying. It sounded like you were saying that the higher work-related deaths and shorter lifespans were unrelated to choices they made. But yes, the pay gap and life-expectancy gap move together. Men tend to be more willing to take on heavier workloads, more stress and more risk than women are and are rewarded for that, but also pay for it with their health. Women tend to look for a different set of rewards such as more time off or flexible schedules, etc. They also tend to be less assertive in asking for pay raises. (As a general trend, and just to point out to anyone with anecdotes to the contrary, a trend just means as a general whole and doesn't speak to specific cases where this won't apply. Wage gaps and life expectancy are also measured as trends of the whole population and won't apply to specific cases.)
    I agree, of course.

    My detractors in this thread need to take a step back, and ask themselves why they are where they are today. What is the most likely and least complicated explanation - meaning, the one which involves the least number of factors? Is it that reasonable to blame an entire group of people, who aren't even going to think the same way and want the same things, for all of your problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I'm often surprised by the very different experiences people have and approaches people take. Growing up I was often the only female in whatever I was doing as apparently I had interests that are more common among males. This never bothered me, it's just how it was and I was fine with it. But, there's a woman I know who I went to school with and is a facebook friend who is interestingly different. In college I went into the sciences and she went into tech at the same school. I didn't see any discrimination against women, and if anything saw more cases where things like affirmative action made things unequal in an opposite way (well-qualified men passed over in favor of less qualified women for example).
    Well there is a misguided view that quotas will encourage more women to enter STEM fields, and an even more misguided view that this will result without the average quality of the workforce declining. However such assumptions defy logic. If employers continuously pass over talented male candidates for less talented female ones in these fields, it is inevitable that productivity will suffer. Businesses should be primarily concerned about providing high-quality products for their customers, and political correctness is getting in the way of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    She was instead for the first time in her life in a field dominated by men, and she immediately reacted as though this was WRONG and needed to be corrected. So, she is constantly posting about how to get girls involved in tech and open up opportunities for them, and lots of ideas on gender equality, starting from the toys they play with and on and on. For her, society is holding girls and women back. But, I wonder then, if it's society, why are some of us immune? She reacted to a situation of being in the minority in a completely different way than I did. I'm not sure why this is. Is there more sexism in tech for some reason? Am I just oblivious? And why is it bad to be in the minority in a field? Why does everything have to be equal?
    We all have a tendency to project our own problems onto others, simply because it's convenient. Blaming a cabal of men for disparate outcomes absolves women of any responsibility for their own behaviour.

    Of course as I posted above, women actually tend to do better than men in male-dominanted companies because most men like having a few women who share our interests around. Feminists of course cannot fathom this, mainly because men tend not to enjoy them.

    To answer your last question, which seems rather rhetorical in nature, there is no reason why everything or everyone should be equal. In fact, a truly equal world would be very depressing to live in - after all it is our differences, not our similarities, that make us interesting to each other. I don't want to date another dude.

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    You literally hear the exact same arguments over and over again when you bring up any issue...:

    "There are these issues within our society that need to be addressed..."

    - Other people have problems too! Maybe even worse problems! Are you saying that their problems don't matter?
    - Maybe if they acted more nicely, they would be treated better. Maybe they are the problem.
    - Why should only X get the blame? Z and Y are guilty as well! It's not fair!
    - Both sides are wrong! They are both two sides of the same coin! They both cause problems and I just want to live in peace and left alone!
    - You're doing it wrong! THIS is how you should go about doing it! The problem can be easily solved if you follow my perfectly fool-proof plan and strategy!

    None of those arguments actually address the very issue that is being discussed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    You literally hear the exact same arguments over and over again when you bring up any issue...:

    "There are these issues within our society that need to be addressed..."

    - Other people have problems too! Maybe even worse problems! Are you saying that their problems don't matter?
    - Maybe if they acted more nicely, they would be treated better. Maybe they are the problem.
    - Why should only X get the blame? Z and Y are guilty as well! It's not fair!
    - Both sides are wrong! They are both two sides of the same coin! They both cause problems and I just want to live in peace and left alone!
    - You're doing it wrong! THIS is how you should go about doing it! The problem can be easily solved if you follow my perfectly fool-proof plan and strategy!

    None of those arguments actually address the very issue that is being discussed.
    This is a good point, although there is something to be said for acknowledging the "size" of a problem. We all have finite resources and should put things in the right perspective.

    Then, there is the equally useless "all X are evil oppressors, down with X."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuivienen View Post
    Haha, I envy you.

    Until last year I was in university (I studied Music and Marketing). My majors were very male, but I did a few English papers to further my academic writing, and let me tell you, feminist activism was everywhere. Last year I tried to break it in music radio and music journalism, but I think my sexual humor and brashness put a few too many artiste snowflakes off. I now realise that with my kind of personality, it's much better to just keep my head low for a while, and absorb the skills I need to start my own business.

    However I've seen first hand the ideological biases which saturate the media in my country. It is breathtaking how delusional, self-righteous and preachy many of these people are. It isn't just women, but it is mostly women who behave in this way. They believe they know what is best for you, and if you disagree, well, you're just a narrow-minded bigot. Perhaps I have been overexposed to this crap because of the industry I'm trying to find work in (arts & entertainment), but my point is, smug chicks definitely exist, and they are trouble.

    I live in a very Delta-heavy society - you are meant to keep your head down, be happy, polite and not express anything dramatic or provocative. This is a problem because music is meant to shock, tease and entertain you, not just give you a peaceful easy free love feeling to soothe your anxieties.
    Not related to this particular post, but to others: feminists are specifically concerned with pay gaps that happen within companies and departments. When there is a pay gap between genders at my workplace (and there is), it certainly isn't because men work harder. On the contrary - I have to work harder for students to accept me as competent.

    Men think their "sexual humor" is funny, but if you have been objectified and reduced to your looks or been subjected to inappropriate sexual remarks in a professional environment too often to dismiss it as "just your random idiot," it's just not funny anymore. So instead of resorting to tired snowflake tropes, why not have conversations with people you offend. You don't get to decide who reacts to you in what way. You. Are. Not. A. Woman. You don't know what it's like.

    Don't make it about delta - that's just lazy. Plenty of deltas are fine with shock and tease. But women are subjected to things you are never subjected to and it's tiring.

    Honestly? I am so sick and tired of you snowflakes crying about not being able to be inappropriate, offensive, and in control. Take your ego down a notch and instead of looking to shoot down everything you hear (including in this thread), start asking questions.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Not related to this particular post, but to others: feminists are specifically concerned with pay gaps that happen within companies and departments. When there is a pay gap between genders at my workplace (and there is), it certainly isn't because men work harder. On the contrary - I have to work harder for students to accept me as competent.
    Who cares what people think of you. Grow thicker skin. Aren't you an adult? You're like a 3 year old crying to the teacher that someone called her names, despicable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Men think their "sexual humor" is funny, but if you have been objectified and reduced to your looks or been subjected to inappropriate sexual remarks in a professional environment too often to dismiss it as "just your random idiot," it's just not funny anymore. So instead of resorting to tired snowflake tropes, why not have conversations with people you offend. You don't get to decide who reacts to you in what way.
    Boohoo I get sexual remarks from men, that's why I need feminism, because my feelings can't handle it boohoo. Also treat me like a man and give me equal pay while were at it, because my whiny little ass can't handle a little sexual remarks boohoo. Prove you're as strong as us, and you'll get your equal pay and equal treatment. Thing is, you don't want that do you? You want to be treated like a special little snowflake who gets all the privileges through whining instead of hard work. That's not how men are treated and you better get used to it. Equality and feminism works both ways. It seems oddly ironic that women like you cannot handle a couple of remarks from men. If you can't even handle a little sexual harrassment, how are you going to handle high paying jobs?

    You. Are. Not. A. Woman. You don't know what it's like.
    Yea we dont know what its like to be teased, bullied, because we are men and that never happens to us. /sarcasm
    It happens to us all the time. Except men aren't little bitches who go whining over the internet about it. We kill ourselves. We deal with it, one way or another. We are strong.
    Grow thicker skin, idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Plenty of deltas are fine with shock and tease.
    Yea, why dont you become one so you can stop whining about stuff that litterally happens to everybody. You are not special, this isn't only happening to you, and this isn't only happening to people with a vagina between their legs, you can stop now. Trust me, im a man. ''you dont know what it's like'' <--snowflake lel

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Honestly? I am so sick and tired of you snowflakes crying about not being able to be inappropriate, offensive, and in control. Take your ego down a notch and instead of looking to shoot down everything you hear (including in this thread), start asking questions.
    No, theres a thing called freedom of speech. Deal with it. No one cares about your feelings. Welcome to the world of a man. You wanted to be treated like a man right? Stop crying about it, man the fuck up. That's what were told. That's why we are strong. I don't think you can handle equality. Better go back to the 50s and cook me some dinner in your safe space, woman.

    To believe you can silence people only to protect your shitty little feelings is the most retarded thing I've ever seen. Pure cancer. Despicable. Unmanly. I spit on you.
    This isn't kindergarden. Free speech is allowed. Deal with it or move to somewhere where women aren't burdened with responsibility. We don't need weak people like you. We need strong women and men who don't whine and take it like a man, like we all do. You think you know what it's like to be a man?

    Men shut the fuck up about their problems and try to fix it themselves, through assertion, logic and not letting their emotions get the best of them. You on the other hand go on the internet to cry about how you're being treated unfairly blablabla and blaming a whole gender for it. You're retarded, close-minded, emotional, irrational and stupid.
    No one will give respect to you, because you don't deserve it, not because you have a pussy between your legs. That's the cold hard truth. You can blame a gender for your problems or you can tell those men that harrassed you to fuck off, like any other self respecting person would. But you don't. Why? Because you are weakm afraid, a little bitch. And it's showing on this very thread. You will never get the respect you think you deserve through whining and demanding. You will get respect through action.
    And you will never get it, because you blame others for your problems, thus you will never solve them. End of story. I pity you. You are not tough enough for the mens world. Better go back to the kitchen, it's probably a lot less stressful to you, snowflake.

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    lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Not related to this particular post, but to others: feminists are specifically concerned with pay gaps that happen within companies and departments. When there is a pay gap between genders at my workplace (and there is), it certainly isn't because men work harder. On the contrary - I have to work harder for students to accept me as competent.
    Why is there a pay gap? If you have hard data showing the gap, can't you ask for a raise? At least in the US there is a law meant to prevent that - The Equal Pay Act, so paying women less is illegal and maybe this should be pointed out to the administration. If the law is ineffective for some reason - why is it? What loopholes need to be closed?

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    Wow, when the red pill hits to hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Who cares what people think of you. Grow thicker skin. Aren't you an adult? You're like a 3 year old crying to the teacher that someone called her names, despicable.


    Boohoo I get sexual remarks from men, that's why I need feminism, because my feelings can't handle it boohoo. Also treat me like a man and give me equal pay while were at it, because my whiny little ass can't handle a little sexual remarks boohoo. Prove you're as strong as us, and you'll get your equal pay and equal treatment. Thing is, you don't want that do you? You want to be treated like a special little snowflake who gets all the privileges through whining instead of hard work. That's not how men are treated and you better get used to it. Equality and feminism works both ways. It seems oddly ironic that women like you cannot handle a couple of remarks from men. If you can't even handle a little sexual harrassment, how are you going to handle high paying jobs?


    Yea we dont know what its like to be teased, bullied, because we are men and that never happens to us. /sarcasm
    It happens to us all the time. Except men aren't little bitches who go whining over the internet about it. We kill ourselves. We deal with it, one way or another. We are strong.
    Grow thicker skin, idiot.


    Yea, why dont you become one so you can stop whining about stuff that litterally happens to everybody. You are not special, this isn't only happening to you, and this isn't only happening to people with a vagina between their legs, you can stop now. Trust me, im a man. ''you dont know what it's like'' <--snowflake lel


    No, theres a thing called freedom of speech. Deal with it. No one cares about your feelings. Welcome to the world of a man. You wanted to be treated like a man right? Stop crying about it, man the fuck up. That's what were told. That's why we are strong. I don't think you can handle equality. Better go back to the 50s and cook me some dinner in your safe space, woman.

    To believe you can silence people only to protect your shitty little feelings is the most retarded thing I've ever seen. Pure cancer. Despicable. Unmanly. I spit on you.
    This isn't kindergarden. Free speech is allowed. Deal with it or move to somewhere where women aren't burdened with responsibility. We don't need weak people like you. We need strong women and men who don't whine and take it like a man, like we all do. You think you know what it's like to be a man?

    Men shut the fuck up about their problems and try to fix it themselves, through assertion, logic and not letting their emotions get the best of them. You on the other hand go on the internet to cry about how you're being treated unfairly blablabla and blaming a whole gender for it. You're retarded, close-minded, emotional, irrational and stupid.
    No one will give respect to you, because you don't deserve it, not because you have a pussy between your legs. That's the cold hard truth. You can blame a gender for your problems or you can tell those men that harrassed you to fuck off, like any other self respecting person would. But you don't. Why? Because you are weakm afraid, a little bitch. And it's showing on this very thread. You will never get the respect you think you deserve through whining and demanding. You will get respect through action.
    And you will never get it, because you blame others for your problems, thus you will never solve them. End of story. I pity you. You are not tough enough for the mens world. Better go back to the kitchen, it's probably a lot less stressful to you, snowflake.
    I hope the irony of this post does not escape you.

    And don't speak for "men." Thankfully most are not entitled idiot bullies.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Why is there a pay gap? If you have hard data showing the gap, can't you ask for a raise? At least in the US there is a law meant to prevent that - The Equal Pay Act, so paying women less is illegal and maybe this should be pointed out to the administration. If the law is ineffective for some reason - why is it? What loopholes need to be closed?
    I only just heard of this because our salaries are not public. Have a meeting about it end of week. I do know it has nothing to do with negotiation or different job tasks, but that all I can say right now.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Not related to this particular post, but to others: feminists are specifically concerned with pay gaps that happen within companies and departments. When there is a pay gap between genders at my workplace (and there is), it certainly isn't because men work harder. On the contrary - I have to work harder for students to accept me as competent.
    The reason that a man in the same company, department and position as a woman gets paid more (on average) is simple - men work longer hours. In particular, men are more likely to do overtime and shifts at night. I can understand why women might not want to do overtime or night shifts, but the truth is that you will get paid more if you put in the hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Men think their "sexual humor" is funny, but if you have been objectified and reduced to your looks or been subjected to inappropriate sexual remarks in a professional environment too often to dismiss it as "just your random idiot," it's just not funny anymore. So instead of resorting to tired snowflake tropes, why not have conversations with people you offend. You don't get to decide who reacts to you in what way. You. Are. Not. A. Woman. You don't know what it's like.

    Don't make it about delta - that's just lazy. Plenty of deltas are fine with shock and tease. But women are subjected to things you are never subjected to and it's tiring.
    Most people will judge you on your actions, not on what you say. If you have ever been around a group of men like me, you'll realise that from nerds to jocks, sexual humor is how we create a cheerful, playful atmosphere. Flirtatious advances towards a girl are not in any way equivalent to rape. Seeing you want to pursue the Socionics angle, one of the defining characteristics of Delta Quadra is their aversion to emotional gradeur and theatricality. They hate shock value humor and dislike people who boast, exaggerate and self-promote. Alphas and Betas tend to piss off Deltas for this reason.

    So you absolutely don't speak for all women any more than I speak for all men, including on this forum. Many women enjoy shock value, sexually vivid humor and some of them have been quite open to me about their desires. In fact, you have let on more than you perhaps realise. I already know that you have a breeding fetish, and that's made me kind of curious

    My advice to you is to change your mentality. Instead of reacting angrily to a man's dirty jokes, take them as a sign that he is interested in getting to know you. You might be pleasantly surprised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Honestly? I am so sick and tired of you snowflakes crying about not being able to be inappropriate, offensive, and in control. Take your ego down a notch and instead of looking to shoot down everything you hear (including in this thread), start asking questions.
    You have a right to not be punched, kicked, humiliated and raped. You also have a right to not be personally attacked or defamed.

    However you absolutely do not have the right to stop me from telling sex jokes. Are we clear?
    Last edited by Cuivienen; 09-13-2017 at 10:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuivienen View Post
    The reason that a man in the same company, department and position as a woman gets paid more (on average) is simple - men work longer hours. In particular, men are more likely to do overtime and shifts at night. I can understand why women might not want to do overtime or night shifts, but the truth is that you will get paid more if you put in the hours.



    Most people will judge you on your actions, not on what you say. If you have ever been around a group of men like me, you'll realise that from nerds to jocks, sexual humor is how we create a cheerful, playful atmosphere. Flirtatious advances towards a girl are not in any way equivalent to rape. Seeing you want to pursue the Socionics angle, one of the defining characteristics of Delta Quadra is their aversion to emotional gradeur and theatricality. They hate shock value humor and dislike people who boast, exaggerate and self-promote. Alphas and Betas tend to piss off Deltas for this reason.

    So you absolutely don't speak for all women any more than I speak for all men, including on this forum. Many women enjoy shock value, sexually vivid humor and some of them have been quite open to me about their desires. In fact, you have let on more than you perhaps realise. I already know that you have a breeding fetish, and that's made me kind of curious

    My advice to you is to change your mentality. Instead of reacting angrily to a man's dirty jokes, take them as a sign that he is interested in getting to know you. You might be pleasantly surprised.



    You have a right to not be punched, kicked, humiliated and raped. You also have a right to not be personally attacked or defamed.

    However you absolutely do not have the right to stop me from telling sex jokes. Are we clear?
    The big cock has spoken

  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Not related to this particular post, but to others: feminists are specifically concerned with pay gaps that happen within companies and departments. When there is a pay gap between genders at my workplace (and there is), it certainly isn't because men work harder. On the contrary - I have to work harder for students to accept me as competent.
    You mean the wage gap theory that has been proven false time and time again? Moreover, what does it matter? As has been pointed out, there are laws in place to prevent this, so make use of it. Laws are in place to protect people's rights. You can't make people not discriminate, but there are measures in place to deal with this if it can be proven.

    I mean its kind of arrogant of you to presume its just being a woman/looks. Did you ever think that, just maybe, your students actually think you are incompetent due to their standards of what a good teacher is? Have you done a survey of them to ask about this?

    This 'you are not a woman argument' is also a joke. Not all women are united under the feminist banner, and there are plenty of women who detest this movement and do not find these ideas of sexism relevent, and furthermore overblown. Are they not women either? Why are you experiencing this sexism, and why aren't they? Is this really so widespread? I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist, but is it to the degree its being elevated to? Not sure if thats accurate. There isn't any real, indisputable data to support this.
    Last edited by Slade; 09-13-2017 at 11:38 PM.
    Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type

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    The wage gap is actually an ongoing debate, while in some countries it's near equality it seems to still be far from it, in others. This still inside a "developed" system. Let's not generalize too much.

    I'm sure the plenty of women who detest the feminist movement have no idea of what the feminist movement is, like you. If women can vote, if we all can have civil divorces, abortion, human and civil rights, it's mostly thanks to this movement. Don't spit on what you don't know.

    The aim of the movement is still in the defense of women, and I really can't see what bothers you people so much about this. Biologically, yes, men have more testoterone, they're more aggressive, and girls are more physically "weak". Does this mean men can abuse women? This is what feminism defends . If you're a woman and you're in an abusive situation you can contact a human right association and get help and support, this is what feminism does. How can you criticize this? It even promotes gender equality and women "liberation" (lol I agree it seems stupid), but it does so with a cultural aim.
    Yes, we are culturally in disadvantage too, because the power is not held by women, consequentially, the rules to play by are not in women favor, it's logic. But we are getting there.

    This is the other aspect of feminism that seems to be so problematic to accept.

    Why is it so? There are many theories about gender differences, it's undoubtedly true that there are differences between the two sexes, but how these differences will develop depends a big deal on the upbringing, ie, culture. And we get back at the idea that in a man world we'll have man rules. It's been tested, the different approaches to girls and boys at a young age, directing them to pick hobbies and even proper attitudes and manners, for their gender, are responsible for shaping their future character and how they'll deal with the world. And this is when the sexism starts, because we still hear "girls can't do this!" but even "boys can't do that!" from worried mums infront of their kids that play at being themselves.

    This is even to say that the idea of careers, of pursuing one's dreams and dispose of their lives as they wished, is an attitude that someone takes or not, we won't have women presidents if we don't encourage little girls to become presidents. It's not just a matter of what a woman wants to do, but it still, in some cases that are not rare at all, is a matter of "what's been possible for a woman to do". Let's not be surprised not to have men anchormen with their chest popping out, while the best anchorwomen sit there showing off their new boobs job, this is what people want, because our culture/mentality is still in favor of this. Is this the idea of respectability women should aim to?

    But what seems such great equality and gender achievement to you, it's actually there from not too long ago, and this consequentially means that not all culture is already changed.

    Women don't want to take over the world, they just want to start seeing half naked anchormen, that would be cool. =)
    Last edited by pinoline; 09-14-2017 at 12:36 AM.

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuivienen View Post
    You have a right to not be punched, kicked, humiliated and raped. You also have a right to not be personally attacked or defamed.

    However you absolutely do not have the right to stop me from telling sex jokes. Are we clear?
    Eh, I disagree with this. You know how you said you wanted open debates without turning things personal? Well, when you start making sexual jokes directed at someone, that's turning it personal. Also, if it's unwelcome and they've told you this, but you keep doing it, then it's harassment. You don't really have the right to do that as it's infringing on someone else at that point. Saying what you think, your viewpoints on whatever issue is fine regardless of what those viewpoints are, but unwelcome personal or sexual remarks towards someone is another matter.

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    MRA: Im going to rape you haha
    Person: Ok Im going to hit you
    MRA: WOW STOP BEING VIOLENT
    go on type me I fuckin dare u

    Mr Speaker — What I do is well within my right
    and anointed power to, as King,
    demand.


    Your Majesty — If this is what you want
    Then this you can, as King,
    command.

  40. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuivienen View Post
    The reason that a man in the same company, department and position as a woman gets paid more (on average) is simple - men work longer hours. In particular, men are more likely to do overtime and shifts at night. I can understand why women might not want to do overtime or night shifts, but the truth is that you will get paid more if you put in the hours.
    Suppose that men actually work longer... if so, then who does the housework, take care of the children, etc? Women are more likely to do those jobs, which mean that they're essentially working for free.

    Anyway, the point is that women can do the exact same job, work the exact same hours and still get paid less than men. Also, it doesn't necessarily mean that making more money = contributing more to society. Wall street financiers, bankers and stockbrokers make 10s to 100s times the money than say, teachers or scientists, yet it doesn't mean that they're contributing to the society 10 to 100 times more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Stromberg
    Let's stop using this outdated measure - which has about as much scientific validity as your astrological sign.

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