hybrid theory

[ooo]

The following is a new theory of types, subtypes and quadras for socionics that came to my mind after some exchanges with the people on here. I’d like to have your views and would like to test this and possibly correct this, since you’re all more experienced in socionics than me, I’ll be very willing to hear of your inputs.


The whole idea turns around the fact that we hardly ever act and behave in the way our type wants us to behave in all the given occasions, especially when we’re stressed, depressed, or just not in the most favorable conditions, we tend to rely on some darker sides of our personality that are very different from our normal-healthy modus operandi; the idea behind my theory though is that every type will go through those phases in finite ways that are characteristic of each type, and to make things even more shaded, since we’re all complex and unique, even according to each temperament (DCHN) or said more simply, according to subtype (inert/contact).


The idea is actually pretty simple, because each type will be working with the modalities that every block of the Model A (2 elements that form a type) contains, so that each type will have 4 different modus operandi (4 types), one per block. The first block will be expressed in the most healthy conditions, when we're ok with the world and with ourself, we will take the characteristics of the 1st block; the second block is the way we assert ourselves when stressed; 4th block is instead about our opposite side, that comes out I think when we are highly inspired; and the 3rd block that I've left as last, remains the deepest block, that contains all that is hidden and that can probably be shown in the most private sides of our life.


Of course, every block can be read in 2 directions, the Model A is read from left to right for the 1st and 4th blocks, while the reading switches from right to the left for the mid blocks. But if this reading works well for the "normal type" (where the emphasis is then on the base function1), the subtype will require us to switch the reading order. This means that every type will have the possibility to operate between two different sets of 4 types (because they'll be inverted), resulting in a total of 8 possible types that can be acted by each type, depending on the circumstances, but if every type can contain 8 different modalities to express itself, instead every person will act only following the 4 types inherent in his blocks, that will follow the order of his most used function.
The difference can be found by individuating your own subtype, if the subtype favors the inert function (the base), then the type will have at its disposition the 4 common possibilities offered by the 4 blocks read in the standard order: 1, 2 = > ; 3, 4 = < ; 5, 6 = < ; 7, 8 = >. If instead your subtype is of the contact (creative) kind, the 4 possibilities offered by the 4 blocks will still be the same but they will be read in the opposite order: 1, 2 = < ; 3, 4 = > ; 5, 6 = > ; 7,8 = <.
Schermata 2017-08-10 alle 22.20.50.png


A practical example: a IEE-Ne will present himself like a IEE, will act like a SLE when stressed, like a IEI when inspired and like a SLI when in the most intimate circumstances; instead a IEE-Fi will behave like a EII normally, like an LSI when stressed, like a EIE when inspired and like a LSE when in intimate circumstances (that will always be filtered by the type's main functions, so that we won't have a type switch, but a different approach to the situations that will resemble the other 3 types - superego, contrary, dual- but with the specific tints of the type).


This will consequently change the quadras that are now composed by the same 4 blocks found in every type. Taking the example of the IEE again, the quadra where it belongs will be made of: IEE, SLE, SLI and IEI. Basically each quadra contains the 2 duals, the super-ego and the contary, in this way every quadra will be balanced in its components of rational (or irrational) functions, but each quadra will be made of only rational or irrational main function types, distinguishing them in XXX'p' and XXX'j' quadras. The balance of the missing rational or irrational accent will then be enhanced by the subtypes, who favor a switched order but still work following the original one, TIM.
0-weu-d2-479930fa4eedb99742aa7f3757daf39b.jpgED
The subtypes are inherent in the new quadras (they are the green columns) but they follow an inverted modality that defeats the preference of the quadra, creating in this way a balance of rationality and irrationality that requires us to consider the subtypes as essential to step out of our own quadra-mind-order of the the model A. Each quadra then contains 8 types, that value each a different function.

The 4 new "quadras":
-IEE, SLI, SLE, IEI
-LSE, EII, EIE, LSI
-LIE, ESI, ESE, LII
-ILE, SEI, SEE, ILI

(thanks Bertrand)

Edit: I mistyped super-ego relationships for conflicting ones, corrected.

Edit 2: I swear I didn't realise I gave the same name of the Linkin Park album to this model lol, yey

[Bertrand]

I think something like this happens; another way to think about it is rings of supervision. so like EIE will act like a SEI when "caregiving", a ILI when "planning/theorizing" and LSE when "working." It really just goes to that when given a task or goal or situation certain functions are most appropriate and we manifest usage of those functions in a way consistent with our "cognitivie style." I think it bears keeping in mind that we're mostly "imitating" those types, not working at the same level they would be were they in that situation. In other words we "play" SEI to give care, but what we come up with is probably not as good as what a "real" SEI would under the same or similar circumstances. But we adopt roles most in keeping with their style because our certain shared underlying traits, etc. I think people probably have unlimited sub personalities in this sense and you could think of "base" or "real" personalities as the people who create progress in those domains, with everyone else stepping into those domains as needed in order to borrow the high quality progress the base types produce. A lot of that goes to how the role function develops over time in terms of what the society populates the archetype of "norms" or what we're mostly likely to pick up when we produce knowledge on the basis of "experience" which is to say its rarely completely shut off from the environment. This overarching society and environment thus condition us in a way that is very much historically and culturally situated and you could say really strong personalities make their imprint on society through time in this way, by refining and exemplifying "ways of being" that make their way into the collective unconscious

[ooo]

Yes, that's one of the idea that made me think of this disposition, you mentioned something similar in the thread of EII-Ne, and it's very important.
The idea in this scheme as well, although I forgot to mention it properly, is that each type will be always operating according to the 2 main functions, that are the ones that distinguish each type from any other; but if the healthy conditions will allow the type to be at "its best" (using his main functions), when in trouble the type will take on the other functions, that since he can't properly master, will be played with a different key than what the real type of those two unused functions would make of them (fe. a SLI in stress conditions won't become a IEI, but will behave similarly, and it will be already stressful because that's not in the cords of a SLI). As you say, each type will get mad as its type can get mad,; but I add, when he gets mad, or pissed, or wtv, he'll be behaving in characteristic ways that contain the functions of his super-ego, and when inspired instead he'll be operating with the functions of his contrary, but since he's still his own type, those functions will be filtered by the 2 main functions that are always on an automatic modality. Or we wouldn't be types, so we can take tints and shades but the type doesn't change.

[Bertrand]

but I add, when he gets mad, or pissed, or wtv, he'll be behaving in characteristic ways that contain the functions of his super-ego, and when inspired instead he'll be operating with the functions of his contrary, .

this is really interesting can you go into it more?

[ooo]

I'll come up to smth later I promise

[PrettySavage]

The following is a new theory of types, subtypes and quadras for socionics that came to my mind after some exchanges with the people on here. I’d like to have your views and would like to test this and possibly correct this, since you’re all more experienced in socionics than me, I’ll be very willing to hear of your inputs.


The whole idea turns around the fact that we hardly ever act and behave in the way our type wants us to behave in all the given occasions, especially when we’re stressed, depressed, or just not in the most favorable conditions, we tend to rely on some darker sides of our personality that are very different from our normal-healthy modus operandi; the idea behind my theory though is that every type will go through those phases in finite ways that are characteristic of each type, and to make things even more shaded, since we’re all complex and unique, even according to each temperament (DCHN) or said more simply, according to subtype (inert/contact).


The idea is actually pretty simple, because each type will be working with the modalities that every block of the Model A (2 elements that form a type) contains, so that each type will have 4 different modus operandi (4 types), one per block. The first block will be expressed in the most healthy conditions, when we're ok with the world and with ourself, we will take the characteristics of the 1st block; the second block is the way we assert ourselves when stressed; 4th block is instead about our opposite side, that comes out I think when we are highly inspired; and the 3rd block that I've left as last, remains the deepest block, that contains all that is hidden and that can probably be shown in the most private sides of our life.


Of course, every block can be read in 2 directions, from left to right for the 1st and 4th blocks, while the reading switches from right to the left for the mid blocks. This means that every type will have the possibility to operate between two different sets of 4 types, resulting in a total of 8 possible types that can be acted by each type, depending on the circumstances, but every person instead will act only following the 4 types inherent in his blocks.
The difference can be found by individuating your own subtype, if the subtype favors the inert function (the base), then the type will have at its disposition the 4 possibilities offered by the 4 blocks read in the standard order: 1, 2 = > ; 3, 4 = < ; 5, 6 = < ; 7, 8 = >. If instead your subtype is of the contact (creative) kind, the 4 possibilities offered by the 4 blocks will still be the same but they will be read in the opposite order: 1, 2 = < ; 3, 4 = > ; 5, 6 = > ; 7,8 = <.


A practical example: a IEE-Ne will present himself like a IEE, will act like a SLE when stressed, like a IEI when inspired and like a SLI when in the most intimate circumstances; instead a IEE-Fi will behave like a EII normally, like an LSI when stressed, like a EIE when inspired and like a SLE when in intimate circumstances (that will always be filtered by the type's main functions, so that we won't have a type switch, but a different approach to the situations that will resemble the other 3 types - superego, contrary, dual- but with the specific tints of the type).


This will consequently change the quadras that are now composed by the same 4 types found in every type. Taking the example of the IEE again, the quadra where it belongs will be made of: IEE, SLE, SLI and IEI. Basically each quadra contains the 2 duals, the super-ego and the contary, in this way every quadra will be balanced in its components and will contain a full view of all the main “healthy” functions.

The 4 new "quadras":

-IEE, SLI, SLE, IEI
-LSE, EII, EIE, LSI
-LIE, ESI, ESE, LII
-ILE, SEI, SEE, ILI

(thanks Bertrand)

Edit: I mistyped super-ego relationships for conflicting ones, corrected.

I am whichever type that can't deal with things like this. I swear my eyes just gloss over whenever I come across any functional breakdown of anything or instructions that have so many "elements". Even if I force myself to read it it's useless, it's like my brain is programmed to resist it


But really, it's an interesting proposition.

[Hope]

@hybris theory

how would work SLI Te and Si in your theory?

[squark]

@hybris theory You might find this article on socionic "masks" interesting: http://socionics.ru/functions-and-models/-lr

and you might also be interested in these articles on type accents: http://socionic.ru/index.php/2010-10-14-21-06-44

[Adam Strange]

@hybris theory You might find this article on socionic "masks" interesting: http://socionics.ru/functions-and-models/-lr

and you might also be interested in these articles on type accents: http://socionic.ru/index.php/2010-10-14-21-06-44

@squark, those are great links. They led to the following link to an article which describes how to get along with duals (and anyone, for that matter) when duality seems not to be going well: http://socionics.ru/relationships/dualizacia2

-Thanks

[ooo]

@hybris theory

how would work SLI Te and Si in your theory?

For now I'm creating just one subtype that is related to the contact function, and that works following the Model A order of the corresponding Mirror type, for e. an SLI Te (contact) will behave reverted, that is like a LSE. A SLI Si is a normal SLI, but I'm thinking of these same points right now, and gotta work this aspect up.

The contact subtype is interesting though, because it's like it is conscious of his "modus operandi" more, and can mirror it, but as pointed by Bertrand, it will still be the initial type: a SLI Te will act like a LSE in the ways that he can, so that he won't look like really a LSE but because he's functioning using that modality too, he will probably resemble a LSI in the end, like shown in the article from Medusa about how the dimensionality of the functions works:https://typevolution.wordpress.com/2...hs-weaknesses/

I wanted to ask you, just about this, you confirmed to have met EIIs that behaved a bit psycho in stressful (for them) conditions, and that that's commonly unbelievable to most people, because EIIs are always portraied like angels.. well, what would you think their subtype, or temperament could be more like? Ne or Fi?

I was reading the descriptions for the creative subtypes (Ne and Se), such as E tritype 478 is a creative type, and it's in their nature to get overwhelmed and extremely touchy over criticism because they mostly think "Oh my god! I've done so much for you with all my ideas and my telepathetic support all the time!! How can you do this to me!! What did I do!! -smashing plates-", it's a kind of hybris, a bit too much pride, because we value our visions (=creative sub) a lot and can't come to cope with daily matters (we know we're diff basically..), so it's extremely unpleasing when we receive remarks, because it means to totally not understand our aims : (
and we know we're too bad with daily "real" stuff anyway.... the last minutes of this video about the E 478 ( which I think it's a common E-type between EIIs-Ne) say this very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mlHoXaYyQg

[Bertrand]

i wanted to throw in one thing I was thinking of, which is that "masks" or "accents" in a lot of ways are just responses to problems, and serve as "methods of problem solving," but bounded by time. So a random problem that confronts you may require a small accent on 2 functions in order to process and resolve it. So in that moment, lets say it lasts for 30 minutes, you "wear" that two-function "mask." but some problems are recurrent problems, like the "problem of being a good student" or "good employee" or "good father"--those take on the character of masks that get repeated use. Maybe so much use we come to to identify with the mask over the base personality. but then there is the ultimate "problem"--the problem of being a human being. And that is where we use the full force of our base personality. this is the problem that underlies all other problems, it is the problem of being itself and in addressing that problem we manifest the complex of 8 functions that "define" our "real" personality--because it is persistent through time to an absolute degree.

in a sense I do believe personality is capable of transformations, such that if "the problem of being you" actually meant you started to use different cognitive functions in a now-permanent way i.e. persistent manner going forward, then by definition your base personality (constituted by your 8 function dynamic) will have changed. I don't have a problem with that in principle. what I do think happens is people jump the gun and what are temporary masks to address stress or other seemingly persistent but not permanent problems cause them to think they're this type, then this type, etc--usually I would say there is an underlying type that unifies all the masks--they just can't see it--because it takes the absolute longest view possible with the deeperst insight possible to identify that unity. it is a very difficult thing, which is why its no surprise people bounce around--and that is ok, because it is all part of the journey to understand oneself. many posters say it took years.. I don't at all doubt that, or think that reflects anything but true credit on them for such a thing...

I think at people look at the problems of socioncis with hate because it contains mysteries and problems and tension that can't be immediately resolved. people say its more trouble than its worth, but in a lot of ways its just the problems of being itself, that you don't get away from if you leave socionics... thus it would be useful to look on socionics with love for the problems it presents. however I do think there can come a point where it becomes unhealthy because a person can get stuck and overwhelmed and they need to take a break or otherwise get a fresh perspective. I think that is okay and good too, so I dont want to say everyone who rejects socionics is some kind of coward doomed to run into the same problems elsewhere and over again, but rather that socionics is like anything else in life, it is what you make of it... but some stuff I just can't make productive or healthy things out of, so in that sense I should walk away. thus socioncis is both good and bad, healthy and unhealthy, because it is tied to the person who goes out to meet it

anyway I really like your posts @hybris theory because I feel like we both have similar attitudes toward the thing and are kindred spirits in that sense, even though of course we're both individuals and go about things in our own way etc

[Aylen]

You might want to check out this post too @hybrid theory

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...subtype-theory

I also remember someone sending me a full article on something very similar but I deleted the pm. It was pretty indepth. It might be somewhere on the forum.

[Bertrand]

I really liked @mclane posts in general

in that thread, I was mistaken about subtypes in that they don't invert your +/- sign of functions, so my big post was pretty fatally flawed

[ooo]

To answer the previous request of yours I'll try to connect it with your last post, I think it's related.
Basically according to this theory I'm trying to develop, in the model A, that is different for every type, there are already the full possibilities of the person. And they're expressed quite simply: ego, super-ego, super-id, id. Despite these names, if we apply the names in our type, it means that since we're any type, we'll have a predisposed following of: super-ego, super-id and id. The blocks of model A not only are called like the psyche, but they resemble it. This means that any SEI will have a super-ego made of Ni and Te, and that any LIE will have a super-id made of Fi and Se. And so on... But if these were just names in a model, they couldn't be true and working, so our ego, super-egos, etc. will be working like that model, because it's actually the model to be inspired from the brain. This is the beauty of socionics to me, it's true, it works.

Now if my superego is composed of some elements, it will mean that during my super-egoic (they're quite stressful) moments, I'll operate in that super-egoic manner and that is super-egoic because I have X and Y base and creative, example: an SLE will behave like an IEE and vice versa, because they're SLE and IEE, so that's stressful for them and they express it like that too, but it will anyway belong to their original type... so irritation of SLE= SLE + IEE mixed together.
Anyway, if this reasoning works on the classical type, that follows the order of the disposition of the elements of the Model A, once we have a contact subtype, that shares the same element of his semi-identical (you can find your semi identical in the id block, inverted), you'll have to switch the reading of the model A to follow a mirrored disposition. Indeed, it's funny to see how names hide much truth, if you switch the order of reading, you'll find your mirror type. And you'll operate like your own mirror, if you'll favor the creative function, that consequentely even reinforces the demonstrative one, the strongest of your semi-identical.
We could say that in the end there are just 16 types as usual, each changing modalities according to his "moods", because the subtypes actually resembles their mirror, but the subtypes are actually still their original type, they're just inverted and will adopt the ways of their mirror as well, although maintening their own ways... so it will be 16 types + 16 contact subtypes, that will resemble their mirror, looking kind of semi-identical, but still be their own type... Makes sense?

Yes, it takes a lot of self awareness to type ourselves. eheh

[ooo]

Anyway, it is interesting to me because if we follow this blocks-horizontal order then the "quadra" will contain the same types of how our brain works too. I'm not suggesting to change quadras, but if we use this schematization then you'll see many affinities with the quadra and the self (how the single type works) along the lines, they're affinities underlined in the Mbti-socion names, because = EII-INFj/EIE-ENFj. The quadra will resemble our own brain somehow, while now it is about an order of values, in the order I propose it will be a kind of deeper resemblance, containing both good and bad, dark and light.

[Bertrand]

I sort of think EIE Ni resembles EII more than IEI in a lot of ways, but I imagine its all in how you look at it. In a certain sense I feel like EIE and EII are playing a more similar game than EIE and IEI and it has to do with dominant ethics. sometimes I feel like I can feel the state of the world and I wonder if I'm not just "feeling myself" in a certain sense, and then I think how EII in some sense does that and proceeds on a journey inward but with the similar ethical goals that the EIE has but differing methods [1]. Whereas I feel like IEI and IEE are about something else, which is less about ethical goals and more about intuitional harmony

what does however bind EIE and IEI is quadral values which is they in some sense still go about doing what they're doing in a similar manner because they use Se Ti etc. But it seems to me on an ethical plane EIE and EII are the most distinctly ethically bound in "their mission" so it sort of depends on what level you analyze things from. EIE Ni more like IEI behaviorally because of similar quadral values, but I feel like from the broadest possible level of ethical mission they have more in common with EII, which doesn't have all the systemic ties to support such a statement but it seems like its more of an ethereal ethical tie that has yet to be fully explored, at least from what I've seen

Nieztsche (EIE) once said Dostoyevski (EII) was the only psychologist he ever had anything to learn from

[1] EIE feels the objective state of the ethical condition and then proceeds to reach people via Ni, whereas EII feels the subjective ethical condition of humanity and reaches people via Ne

[ooo]

I'm making so many typos but I hope the intent is a bit clear..

[Hope]

I wanted to ask you, just about this, you confirmed to have met EIIs that behaved a bit psycho in stressful (for them) conditions, and that that's commonly unbelievable to most people, because EIIs are always portraied like angels.. well, what would you think their subtype, or temperament could be more like? Ne or Fi?

I was reading the descriptions for the creative subtypes (Ne and Se), such as E tritype 478 is a creative type, and it's in their nature to get overwhelmed and extremely touchy over criticism because they mostly think "Oh my god! I've done so much for you with all my ideas and my telepathetic support all the time!! How can you do this to me!! What did I do!! -smashing plates-", it's a kind of hybris, a bit too much pride, because we value our visions (=creative sub) a lot and can't come to cope with daily matters (we know we're diff basically..), so it's extremely unpleasing when we receive remarks, because it means to totally not understand our aims : (
and we know we're too bad with daily "real" stuff anyway.... the last minutes of this video about the E 478 ( which I think it's a common E-type between EIIs-Ne) say this very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mlHoXaYyQg

My friend is Fi e 4w3, probably with 9 fix somewhere and I don't know the rest. In her case, I think that she started to cry and yell and then throw stuff... I saw her crying and making kind of "drama" with boyfriends and friends in some occasions. Actually since we were kids she used to make "scenes" in parties... in one occasion she start crying and lock herself in my bathroom so ppl was begging her to get out and talk with them... I just skipped from the scene that time at the pure style of:




The thing is that she really needed to know that she was important, accepted or loved... but she mostly do that with ppl who she knows that would "answer" to her call...not my case since I'm not emotional at all and I don't respond to any kind of emotional requests either (1DFe). I know that I'm an awful friend for feelers.


I think that my friend kind of think: I've done so much for you trying so hard to fit with you and supporting you all the time!! How can you do this to me!! What did I do!! -smashing plates-"

[Bertrand]

lol that meme is brilliant and its exactly how I imagined my SLI ex was. like one time I started crying at a movie and that was her exact response

[ooo]

My friend is Fi e 4w3, probably with 9 fix somewhere and I don't know the rest. In her case, I think that she started to cry and yell and then throw stuff... I saw her crying and making kind of "drama" with boyfriends and friends in some occasions. Actually since we were kids she used to make "scenes" in parties...

LOL kk, guess we've found the dirty soft spots of most EIIs then

damn I thought I was so special... actually our reasons to get so pissed are slightly different, I'm not putting up a mask for the social interactions (as you say in the other thread) or any shield, and that's often why some people are so criticizing of me. For example last night I went out for dinner in a restaurant and I've met my aunt, whom I hate, on the door, she greeted me and I ignored her and instead of going to eat like a normal person I just went back home.
I just couldn't make it to ignore my dirty feels like others wanted in that situation, my emotions were just taking over me. Then, as I turned my heels to head back home I just thought to myself "why are you this stupid, just say her hi goddear.." but I couldn't lol
thankfully the person I was with perfectly understood and didn't raise a comment. If someone had to question my behavior then I'd have probably just ignored them with a grumpy look, for I just wanted to be left alone.
This has little to do with the outbursts though that go in all other levels...

[ooo]

I came to work out the subtype system better, integrating all the DNHC energies that can be described like this:
Fe/ Te= Dominant (rational)
Ne/ Se = Creative (irrational)
Ni/ Si = Harmonizing (irrational)
Fi / Ti = Normalizing (rational)

We'll have 2 kind of types for every type: the one who favors the base function 1 (inert type), and the type tha favors the creative function 2 (contact type).
Because of the strenghtening of either their main or creative function, consequentially even the parallel function in the 4th ID block will be strenghtened, for instance an ESE-Fe could have very strong Fi, while a ESE-Si could even have Se stronger than Fe.
For this, every type that favors either a rational or irrational function, could only be the possible rational (DN) or irrational (CH) "subtypes"(-temperaments) that are the first and last function in the column he favors.

A ESE-Fe could be D or N, a ESE-Si could be C or H;
a LII-Ti could be N or D, a LII-Ne could be H or C;
a ILE-Ne could be C or H, a ILE-Ti could be D or N;
a SEI-Si could be H or C, a SEI-Fe could be N or D...
and so on

Every type can so operate with all the 4 DNCH modalitis, although every (sub)-type, and maybe even the person, can possibly work with 2.

[ooo]

Since I got obsessed with Model B and + and - symbols... I decided to mix it with my scheme of quadras. Please people bare with me, now you'll see how much of a n00b I am, I can't evn use paint, so I did it all by hand.. and it took me 4 hours to draw this... don't judge!
20992655_1648394778513652_1840559182617864662_n.jpg

The columns follow the quadras-mind order I tried to bring up. You see that if we consider the types following the original quadras order (=alpha/ beta in the upper part and gamma/ delta below), we'll have a vertical distribution of the types that resemble the order that each type contains in its blocks= the mind quadras. The columns are even divided by P and J types that are either all + or -.

This distribution is very intelligent because we'll have 16 different functions in the end, one per type. The functions in the ego block are even shared among the types of other 2 original quadras from the original disposition; in the column order I suggest instead you'll see that each column values all different functions, making the quadra overall more balanced...

Have fun noticing the patterns!