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Thread: EII-LSE Duality (INFj-ESTj)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    The pseudo-victim-y-ness can be compared to when an EII goes off the rails when they're upset, acting all aggressive. It's transparent and pathetic, and to anyone who actually is a victim/aggressor I imagine it's off-putting or confusing. To other caregivers/childlikes, especially same quadra, it can be an effective if somewhat eye-roll-causing call for help.
    To me it just comes off as tantrumy hatefulness

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Among not close or familiar people LSE often play Fe-image "all is ok" part of what mb depreciation of problems, including through joking.
    Yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    seems you were lucky to communicate with E-1 version
    Do you think other E types (of LSE) do not lecture?


    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    To me it just comes off as tantrumy hatefulness
    Right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Do you think other E types (of LSE) do not lecture?
    In case there is the common conjuction of lecturing and anger, apprehension: criticism, trying to do better, giving advices, - points to E-1. Common lecturing in good or neutral mood points to other E-type.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    @Minde
    Yea lecturing too I agree, I've witnessed what you describe here especially about the eye-rolling call for help.
    @Sol
    I think that Fe image is also heightened in the E-3 LSE, while some other LSEs could appear more anxious instead of "everything is good."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I think that Fe image is also heightened in the E-3 LSE, while some other LSEs could appear more anxious instead of "everything is good."
    Role function is often used to make good image for not familiar people or to impress an auditory. Some LSE may to be _more_ anxious, but they use role function similarly.
    Also when you feel good - there is more of the force (and a wish) to use superego functions. So Fe can be supressed or expressed non-naturally because a man is tired or in bad mood, not only in relaxed conditions.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Anyways, to get back to the topic. So LSE and EII duality is hit or miss? Is that what everybody is saying pretty much, like there's something there but it's not "always" there but when it's there it could be good for both people?
    There is nothing in socionics or any reasonable typology that actually indicates you will have anything other than hit or miss.



    IME something is there but I never got far enough to run into the problems. I am an EII guy though so with LSE women it might have a different twist to it maybe?
    @UDP got a link to your thread of meeting someone form your quadra in public?
    I'm not sure what you are asking about.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    That seems like a healthy EII-LSE dual relations and you sound like a dick for backing out of plans after a person completely rearranged their day for you. Did you at least apologize?
    The better question would have been more about the context of the situation.
    If I answered your question as is, the answer would be misleading.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Ok so there is an ESTj girl at my job. We got along pretty quickly, talking seems effortless, she seems to say out loud she prefers my company over another co-worker and asks me to stay on my shift a little longer before I leave, and she playfully touches me. She is very attractive and I'm all about trying to go after her, she has other qualities that I also like. But she has a boyfriend, they have been together for less than a year. I don't want to be a scum bag that tries to go after another guy's girl but like.......come on, I try to justify with the fact that they aren't married so it's fair game, but it does seem not right. Someone convince me I should do this lol. Please.




    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    There is nothing in socionics or any reasonable typology that actually indicates you will have anything other than hit or miss.




    I'm not sure what you are asking about.
    You said something about making a thread in previous pages but forget about it.

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    I am going to tell this ESTj girl plain and simple. If things do not work out between her and her man she has my facebook and my number, I'll take her to this resturant we talkd about. I have nothing to lose since I will never see her again. To me it's worth it because I feel an effortless attraction there. It's so natural that when I actually TRY anything that's not really me with her it seems like she notices and is not impressed, but when I just go with my gut she usually reacts quickly and positively, it's like I am almost being demanded to stay myself, and that is an awesome feeling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Ok so there is an ESTj girl at my job. We got along pretty quickly, talking seems effortless, she seems to say out loud she prefers my company over another co-worker and asks me to stay on my shift a little longer before I leave, and she playfully touches me. She is very attractive and I'm all about trying to go after her, she has other qualities that I also like. But she has a boyfriend, they have been together for less than a year. I don't want to be a scum bag that tries to go after another guy's girl but like.......come on, I try to justify with the fact that they aren't married so it's fair game, but it does seem not right. Someone convince me I should do this lol. Please.

    You said something about making a thread in previous pages but forget about it.
    Go for it. Female LSE's don't exactly grow on trees. You might not find another one anytime soon.

    Several of the women I have dated were seeing guys at the time of our first date. After we started talking, they ditched the BF. My first GF was like that and so was my ex-wife. Note that neither of them were duals, though, but I guess I just seemed like the better deal to them for some reason.

    Just hang around her as much as you can. She'll quickly notice that you guys "click". Ask her if she wants to go to church or to some other social event.
    Unfortunately, even though my mother is LSE, I don't know what it is that makes an LSE female decide on a particular mate. But whatever it is, you should have the best shot at providing it.

    Maybe ask @Director Abbie, or @Sol might give you some hints.

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    Hello, I have been summoned. What is the question? Do I need to read the whole thread?

    How to get an LSE woman to like you?
    "Just hang around her as much as you can."
    This is good advice.
    And I'd say don't make it clear that you hope it will be more. Let her get attached to you first.
    If you come on too strong, she might not push you away, but it would show her that she doesn't need to contribute much to keep your interest and won't be as emotionally invested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    asks me to stay on my shift a little longer before I leave, and she playfully touches me
    LSE do such only when like you indeed and want relations. Generally, LSE are not "playful" in other cases, as prefer serious relations, deep feelings. But she can be other type like ESE, SLI, SLE, etc. Or some chance you misunderstood her actions as "playful".

    > But she has a boyfriend, they have been together for less than a year.

    Another thing about LSE: we prefer clarity and faithfullness in relations. If she shows you special sympathy, not like to pal, - this means she' switching on you and other relations were broken. But in such case there would be a time at least monthes she came to norma to get the interest and show it to others. Probably that girl is not LSE.

    > I don't want to be a scum bag that tries to go after another guy's girl but like.......come on, I try to justify with the fact that they aren't married so it's fair game

    It's common concurency until they are not married. The relative exclusion may be is when people live together for long, especially if there are also kids.

    > Someone convince me I should do this lol. Please.

    Ask her - what relations she wants.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Being playful doesn't mean she's not LSE. LSEs are sometimes playful. We do value Ne, after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Being playful doesn't mean she's not LSE. LSEs are sometimes playful. We do value Ne, after all.
    Thank you exactly.

    And she seems LSE because she seems Te first, but likes playful Ne. I imagine she wants me to stay around her at work because she has told me I help make her job less boring. In a playfully arrogant way she has said "You are here to entertain me."
    When she catches me slacking on the job she's quick to say "Stay on top of it!" And when she deals with customers she has a very neutral and calmly sure and assertive voice. This is actually what caught my attention, she forcefully but calmly demanded customers move out of her way, and my first words to her were teasing on her being mean to them lol. She quickly denied and then boom we just joked the entire time.

    Also when I tease her she playfully hits me or just bumps into me with a silent smile, and those moments are like a nice silent connection between us, like I get her or or something, perhaps it's her little Fi being touched.It seems like me teasing her is a guilty pleasure lol a playful weakness perhaps. And i love it. I also agree with the advice of not coming on too strong, I don't want to make it seem like she doesn't have to participate for this thing to work.

    And playfully touching I mean like she has grabbed my bicep to say hi to me, like a light squeeze, and she has slapped my chest when I make her laugh.

    I have also noticed like when I come around her work area during work and tease that I'm only there for something else and not there to see her, she acts playfully offended. But one time I said I was there to see someone else and even though she had a smile on her face she looked like she thought I was really being mean and her friend asked me why I was so mean. I thought to myself, if she has a boyfriend and indeed doesn't like me, she wouldn't care, but she looked like she cared, and that made me feel like I had a chance.

    Also my seasonal job with her has ended and I told her I would apply to the job across the street, she said I should, she'll be there, not sure if I should read into her mentioning that she'll be there, but I just took it as a sign that she likes my company.
    @Adam Strange Unfortunately I did not say anything along the lines of wanting to get with her. I said my goodbye and she said hers and it was very impersonal and she just told me to hit her up on social media. It made me sad that it was so impersonal, but I had to remind myself that perhaps it's just that she's LSE and I wasn't gonna get some emotional goodbye lol. I have an opportunity to meet her again at another job so perhaps I can hang around her as much as I can. Maybe I should have provided the emotion in the goodbye and said I was gonna miss her, in a playful but intentional way. And yea I think she is aware that we click. I wonder how she sees me in her head since she has a bf, perhaps a fun to be around brother? And that's interesting you said ask her to go to church, it's like you read my future plans or something. Thanks for the encouragement.

    Main reason I didn't not bring up my interest to her was because I told my LSE friend (who doesn't know about types and doesn't know the type of the girl) that I wanted to tell this girl who has a boyfriend that if she ever ends up single we should go out. Funny enough he told me, put yourself in the other guys shoes, would you want someone saying that to your girlfriend, have some respect for her relationship, don't do it, and if she leaves him for you she will leave you for someone else. And he managed to convince me. *sigh*

    I agree, LSE women do not grow on trees, the only other one I know, another mananger at my other job funny enough lol, is old enough to be my mom lol. She also found me funny when we first met.

    Thank you guys , I did not expect any responses but your responses helped give me more things to think about moving forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    @Slugabed what would you type emma watson as?

    I've never seen harry potter but I always thought emma seemed nice. im surprised you dont like her

    i honestly dont have any ideas about her type since ive had very little exposure to anything of hers
    isn't she SLI?

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Thank you exactly.

    And she seems LSE because she seems Te first, but likes playful Ne. I imagine she wants me to stay around her at work because she has told me I help make her job less boring. In a playfully arrogant way she has said "You are here to entertain me."
    When she catches me slacking on the job she's quick to say "Stay on top of it!" And when she deals with customers she has a very neutral and calmly sure and assertive voice. This is actually what caught my attention, she forcefully but calmly demanded customers move out of her way, and my first words to her were teasing on her being mean to them lol. She quickly denied and then boom we just joked the entire time.

    Also when I tease her she playfully hits me or just bumps into me with a silent smile, and those moments are like a nice silent connection between us, like I get her or or something, perhaps it's her little Fi being touched.It seems like me teasing her is a guilty pleasure lol a playful weakness perhaps. And i love it. I also agree with the advice of not coming on too strong, I don't want to make it seem like she doesn't have to participate for this thing to work.

    And playfully touching I mean like she has grabbed my bicep to say hi to me, like a light squeeze, and she has slapped my chest when I make her laugh.

    I have also noticed like when I come around her work area during work and tease that I'm only there for something else and not there to see her, she acts playfully offended. But one time I said I was there to see someone else and even though she had a smile on her face she looked like she thought I was really being mean and her friend asked me why I was so mean. I thought to myself, if she has a boyfriend and indeed doesn't like me, she wouldn't care, but she looked like she cared, and that made me feel like I had a chance.

    Also my seasonal job with her has ended and I told her I would apply to the job across the street, she said I should, she'll be there, not sure if I should read into her mentioning that she'll be there, but I just took it as a sign that she likes my company.
    @Adam Strange Unfortunately I did not say anything along the lines of wanting to get with her. I said my goodbye and she said hers and it was very impersonal and she just told me to hit her up on social media. It made me sad that it was so impersonal, but I had to remind myself that perhaps it's just that she's LSE and I wasn't gonna get some emotional goodbye lol. I have an opportunity to meet her again at another job so perhaps I can hang around her as much as I can. Maybe I should have provided the emotion in the goodbye and said I was gonna miss her, in a playful but intentional way. And yea I think she is aware that we click. I wonder how she sees me in her head since she has a bf, perhaps a fun to be around brother? And that's interesting you said ask her to go to church, it's like you read my future plans or something. Thanks for the encouragement.

    Main reason I didn't not bring up my interest to her was because I told my LSE friend (who doesn't know about types and doesn't know the type of the girl) that I wanted to tell this girl who has a boyfriend that if she ever ends up single we should go out. Funny enough he told me, put yourself in the other guys shoes, would you want someone saying that to your girlfriend, have some respect for her relationship, don't do it, and if she leaves him for you she will leave you for someone else. And he managed to convince me. *sigh*

    I agree, LSE women do not grow on trees, the only other one I know, another mananger at my other job funny enough lol, is old enough to be my mom lol. She also found me funny when we first met.

    Thank you guys , I did not expect any responses but your responses helped give me more things to think about moving forward.
    @Lord Pixel, I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier.

    I think you should ignore the advice you got from the guy who said "How would you like to have someone saying that to your GF?" The LSE has a clear (but faulty) idea of her relationships in her head, and she isn't going to be swayed by someone's argument if she doesn't agree with it. So the worst you can do is strike out. But, you can do better.

    I know five married LSE's.

    1. My LSE sister. She had a childhood crush on my IEI buddy, and when he dropped out of college and was living in his parent's basement, she went over and proposed to him. He refused. She gave him one month to think about it, and told him after that, she'd never ask him again. On day 25 he rode his bike over to my parent's house and agreed to marry her. They have been pretty miserable ever since.
    Moral of the story: LSE's might know what they want, but often don't know what's good for them.

    2. My millionaire LSE buddy. In HS, he was struggling but had never gone on a date. He double dated once with a friend of his, his date was an EII, she chose him and that was the end of his freedom. He turned his life around and is now very wealthy.
    Moral: Duals are very good for you.

    3. My LII sister married an LSE guy. He came into her store one day with a buddy and they were dancing to the Muzak, and she mistook him for an ESE and went after him big time. He was already married with kids, but the marriage was unhappy. He decided to divorce his wife and marry my sister, and they have a mixed happy/frustrating marriage now. But he (the LSE) is faithful and is determined to make it work.
    Moral: LSE's prefer sex with Infantiles. No question. They are perfectly capable of choosing the wrong Infantile.

    4. My LSE mother married my SLI father in college. He was in law school, she was an immigrant's daughter. They went on a bus outing and she lit a cigarette, and he said "What? You smoke?" and she said "Yes, and I drink, too!" It evidently impressed him, since he was looking for a strong woman. I asked my father why he married my mother, and he said, "She made me get married." I overheard my parents talking once about an incident that happened before they were married, where a guy my mother knew told her at a party that he was going to steal her away from my father, and she just laughed at him. Their marriage has endured, but they aren't exactly as happy with each other as they could be.
    Moral: An LSE can think she knows what she wants, but she's capable of choosing non-optimum solutions.

    5. An LSE guy I work with. He's married, but not to his dual. Instead, there is a female EII (CFO) whose office is next to his and who is presently going through a divorce. Sometimes, she goes into his office to talk to him. I've overheard them (the offices are not soundproof) and she is either hunting him or doing experiments, I can't tell. They normally get along fantastically, but when she is in "why don't you call me?" mode, he suddenly remembers he has to call his wife. She obviously has the native levers which operate him. But the guy is totally faithful. Or committed to his plan. Lol.
    Moral: If you wait too long to dualize, you might lose your chance.

    I think LSE's have the same problem that I have, which is low Fi. We don't know very well how we feel about things. We have a plan, and we'll be damned sure we are going to carry out that plan, come hell or high water. Even when the plan is a really bad plan.

    I recommend that you go for her. Let her know that you really, really like her. Don't say you are going to steal her away; she will think you are an idiot. Don't say you want to marry her, she will think you are ill-considered. Talk about your family and the one you hope to have some day. Tell her you are iron-clad faithful. Tell her how much you respect her, and don't dress like a bum. Tell her how great she is. Tell her you really like spending time with her, and you hope to find someone like her to marry someday, and you are really unhappy now. Ask her advice, tell her you don't know what to do. She will focus on your unhappiness and will try to do something to make you feel better. Eventually, she might come to see you as a better partner than her present BF, but making that transition in her mind might be difficult. You will have to always look respectable, like someone she can show off in church. She's not running on feels, she's running on logic and is following her plan for her life, which is probably not a very good plan, but it's her plan. You need to hang around her until she sees your merits and you become her new plan. Do it every day.

    Best of luck to you.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-25-2018 at 12:10 PM.

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    @Adam Strange that is sweet. And this whole situation does resemble a romcom which is lovely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Lord Pixel, I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier.

    I think you should ignore the advice you got from the guy who said "How would you like to have someone saying that to your GF?" The LSE has a clear (but faulty) idea of her relationships in her head, and she isn't going to be swayed by someone's argument if she doesn't agree with it. So the worst you can do is strike out. But, you can do better.

    Oh man, I have been on such a curious search for LSE info, and this response just provides that on a platter. Thank you man! I sort of lit up when I saw you had 5 examples of LSEs.
    Also I noticed your sister and mom are both LSEs so I think it's safe to assume you know quite a bit about female LSEs in particular, so you seem like a good source of female LSE knowledge there lol.


    Thank you for the encouragement to pursue her, there is something inside me that is excited about that, to go for what I want and being told to do just that is really affirming. I was also determined to do better and find an available LSE girl.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    1. My LSE sister. She had a childhood crush on my IEI buddy, and when he dropped out of college and was living in his parent's basement, she went over and proposed to him. He refused. She gave him one month to think about it, and told him after that, she'd never ask him again. On day 25 he rode his bike over to my parent's house and agreed to marry her. They have been pretty miserable ever since.
    Moral of the story: LSE's might know what they want, but often don't know what's good for them.
    Your sister proposed to a man, wow, did she get on a knee or what? lol that sounds insane lol. I imagine a girl would find that humiliating if the man declined but she just hung in there, wow lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    2. My millionaire LSE buddy. In HS, he was struggling but had never gone on a date. He double dated once with a friend of his, his date was an EII, she chose him and that was the end of his freedom. He turned his life around and is now very wealthy.
    Moral: Duals are very good for you.
    This sounds like the dream man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    3. My LII sister married an LSE guy. He came into her store one day with a buddy and they were dancing to the Muzak, and she mistook him for an ESE and went after him big time. He was already married with kids, but the marriage was unhappy. He decided to divorce his wife and marry my sister, and they have a mixed happy/frustrating marriage now. But he (the LSE) is faithful and is determined to make it work.
    Moral: LSE's prefer sex with Infantiles. No question. They are perfectly capable of choosing the wrong Infantile.
    This infantile thing is so damn embarrassing, mostly because it is true, aw geez.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    4. My LSE mother married my SLI father in college. He was in law school, she was an immigrant's daughter. They went on a bus outing and she lit a cigarette, and he said "What? You smoke?" and she said "Yes, and I drink, too!" It evidently impressed him, since he was looking for a strong woman. I asked my father why he married my mother, and he said, "She made me get married." I overheard my parents talking once about an incident that happened before they were married, where a guy my mother knew told her at a party that he was going to steal her away from my father, and she just laughed at him. Their marriage has endured, but they aren't exactly as happy with each other as they could be.
    Moral: An LSE can think she knows what she wants, but she's capable of choosing non-optimum solutions.
    That laugh, that whole situation where she laughed as a matter of fact, sounds very LSE lol I can picture the laugh and everything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    5. An LSE guy I work with. He's married, but not to his dual. Instead, there is a female EII (CFO) whose office is next to his and who is presently going through a divorce. Sometimes, she goes into his office to talk to him. I've overheard them (the offices are not soundproof) and she is either hunting him or doing experiments, I can't tell. They normally get along fantastically, but when she is in "why don't you call me?" mode, he suddenly remembers he has to call his wife. She obviously has the native levers which operate him. But the guy is totally faithful. Or committed to his plan. Lol.
    Moral: If you wait too long to dualize, you might lose your chance.
    So this is the guy you mentioned who all of the sudden has to call his wife, that is the funniest thing in the world LOL. straight out of a movie lol. I can just picture the adjusting or the neck tie before the call is made, trying to keep one's composure lol. This sounds like the sort of thing F types live for lol. Having touched someone in the soft spot, and now they don't know what to do with it. Poor guy lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I think LSE's have the same problem that I have, which is low Fi. We don't know very well how we feel about things. We have a plan, and we'll be damned sure we are going to carry out that plan, come hell or high water. Even when the plan is a really bad plan.
    See, I feel like this was something I always knew in the back of my head, seeing someone so gung-ho for their plan but not always seeing the plan as failing or not working. My LSE pastor is running and dieing church, and as sad as it is to see the church dieing, it's even sadder to see how much he is dedicated he is to something that might be slowly dieing, all I see is a man barely hanging on now with that E3 smile on his face always saying "It's possible all we need is a good attitude". This is probably a Polr Ni issue though.


    So yea, I see the reoccuring theme here. LSEs are capable of making bad relationship decisions and committing to them. Not sure if this particular girl has made a bad decision, she has posted on social media how much she likes her current BF, though I do not think he is a dual, maybe an IEE, he appears extraverted. But yea, I want to give into my desire to pursue her, because honestly there was something very natural and just easy there, something very effortless, and that almost never happens with most women for me personally so it's a bit of a shocker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I recommend that you go for her. Let her know that you really, really like her. Don't say you are going to steal her away; she will think you are an idiot. Don't say you want to marry her, she will think you are ill-considered. Talk about your family and the one you hope to have some day. Tell her you are iron-clad faithful. Tell her how much you respect her, and don't dress like a bum. Tell her how great she is. Tell her you really like spending time with her, and you hope to find someone like her to marry someday, and you are really unhappy now. Ask her advice, tell her you don't know what to do. She will focus on your unhappiness and will try to do something to make you feel better. Eventually, she might come to see you as a better partner than her present BF, but making that transition in her mind might be difficult. You will have to always look respectable, like someone she can show off in church. She's not running on feels, she's running on logic and is following her plan for her life, which is probably not a very good plan, but it's her plan. You need to hang around her until she sees your merits and you become her new plan. Do it every day.

    Best of luck to you.
    Lol, funny because I'm trying to see if she's someone I can show off in church. Some of these things though might require a great deal of comfort to express not gonna as I do not want to sound like I am kissing up to her as it might frame the interaction into something like she's more valuable than me, you need me, therefore she could leave at any moment and lose nothing, while I lose everything. Do you think that would come off as kissing up to her instead of well welcomed? But I think asking her advice is probably a very easy route to interact and get closer to LSEs so I'll definitely take that approach. If I got closer to her and still wasn't in a relationship I think talking about who I would want to be with and marry someday would come more naturally. I have taken the route of trying to ask her questions about herself and it has not worked lol. Asking her advice and talking about the qualities I want in a woman that also line up with her qualities sounds better than what I have been doing. iSo that's how she sees things regarding her plan and how she would have to see me as part of her plan, that makes sense, thanks for that insight.

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    Interacting with that girl felt like a romcom lol. Witty banter, closeness, unsureness, pull away, silence anticipation, all that vague ambiguous obvious interest with jokes inbetween. Like grown children with highschool crushes.

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    @Lord Pixel, my personal feeling is that a female LSE really has some idea of what she wants, but her terrible Ni makes actually ever achieving that ideal close to being an accident. Also, "LSE" is a very male personality type, so she's going to basically act like a man. She's not sentimental, not lovey-dovey. She wants to have a family and be respected in the community, and for you to have a chance, she has to see how you will help her achieve that goal. Sweet-talking her to try to convince her of something is just not going to work.

    My feeling of what will work is, I repeat, to ask her for advice and for help in logical matters. And to express your appreciation for her help (not for her). She's also going to be pretty good at Si things like landscaping or decorating her house. You could ask her for advice there. She might want to talk to someone about her hobby, which might be collecting mechanical fishing reels or something. You should find that fascinating. But most of all, let her know that something in your life is hurting you and you'd like her advice on how to fix it. She's going to give some Te answer with very limited Fi, but if she helps you, then she at least has seen you and is sympathetic. Te types really like to give people answers to their questions. It's what we do, lol.

    I'll also say that you might have a very short window in which to get her attention and divert her from her current course. So don't waste time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Lord Pixel, my personal feeling is that a female LSE really has some idea of what she wants, but her terrible Ni makes actually ever achieving that ideal close to being an accident. Also, "LSE" is a very male personality type, so she's going to basically act like a man. She's not sentimental, not lovey-dovey. She wants to have a family and be respected in the community, and for you to have a chance, she has to see how you will help her achieve that goal. Sweet-talking her to try to convince her of something is just not going to work.

    My feeling of what will work is, I repeat, to ask her for advice and for help in logical matters. And to express your appreciation for her help (not for her). She's also going to be pretty good at Si things like landscaping or decorating her house. You could ask her for advice there. She might want to talk to someone about her hobby, which might be collecting mechanical fishing reels or something. You should find that fascinating. But most of all, let her know that something in your life is hurting you and you'd like her advice on how to fix it. She's going to give some Te answer with very limited Fi, but if she helps you, then she at least has seen you and is sympathetic. Te types really like to give people answers to their questions. It's what we do, lol.

    I'll also say that you might have a very short window in which to get her attention and divert her from her current course. So don't waste time.

    Ok so infantile behavior pretty much. This masculine type and female type thing is so screwed up, but can't be helped so so be it. Her hobby is photography, and I tried to sort of dive into the topic but she has very little to say about it lol. I also notice yea Te loves loves loves giving people answers to questions, even questions that are not asked lol.

    I'll try to contact her but I have no idea what to ask her advice on lol.

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    Don’t feel bad. I’m not ecstatic about being a “victim”.

    You could always ask her what you should do if the woman you like already has a BF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Don’t feel bad. I’m not ecstatic about being a “victim”.

    You could always ask her what you should do if the woman you like already has a BF.
    You have a point. There's areas that suck for everyone.
    And that is pretty slick looool that seems right up my ally lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venus Rose View Post
    Oh, this is really interesting! I haven't experienced duality yet, so I cannot say for sure what that would be like. But I would like to contribute anyway, despite my limited knowledge.

    I did like a couple of posts on this thread, and they sounded quite accurate to me. I am guessing the major focus and pivot of attraction between these two types would be that the LSE is attracted to, and admires, the EII's sincerity, and moral uprightness, while the EII is attracted to LSE's decisiveness, confidence, authority, and of course, the amazing affection, tenderness, and care as well. Barring that, I feel like there would be a lot of different ways this duality could manifest.

    Another important thing about the Delta quadra, that distinguishes it from other quadras, is their distaste for mind-games, or any sort of confusing and/or manipulative dynamic. They admire, like, and respect those that are honest, straightforward, and transparently sincere. I think this facilitates intimacy within the dual pairs as well, since this is so important to them.

    As for Delta quadra being 'boring' - well, boring is in the eye of the beholder. Being SX valuing, I grow restless with anything that does fully captivate and engage me. That is to say, I don't think any quadra is inherently boring.
    Then you have not been much exposed to SLI -IEEs.

    The unhealthy versions of these two psychologies are atrocious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venus Rose View Post
    Could you please explain? Why do you say that? Do you think it is likely only within the SLI-IEE pair, or also the LSE-EII pair?
    On IEE end all sorts of nerotisms that could be easily summed down into :

    -"I'm lazy and I don't wanna go through all the hoops that others go through"
    -slovenly
    -disorganized
    -self sabotaging
    -hyper focused on the wrong ethical aspects "im such and such category (black, asian, white, woman, man ect) and therefore this is why I am being treated this way, or this is why I can't do such and such, or this is why things are this way." or the total opposite: "I cannot be catagorized and I am a free agent which is not bound by normie ethics and considerations."
    -victimization of process
    -blaming others for own faults
    -inability to learn from past mistake (the definition of insanity)
    -in ability to focus on the right priorities
    -not following through on projects (shared with SLI)
    -flakiness; both standard and non standard
    -exhaustive need for extended care even into late adulthood
    -hiding behind self projected weakness (crutches)
    - and the major one: exaggerating events and the truth in regards to Te and Si.
    Last edited by waddup; 11-23-2018 at 03:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by waddup View Post
    On IEE end all sorts of nerotisms that could be easily summed down into :

    -"I'm lazy and I don't wanna go through all the hoops that others go through"
    -slovenly
    -disorganized
    -self sabotaging
    -hyper focused on the wrong ethical aspects "im such and such category (black, asian, white, woman, man ect) and therefore this is why I am being treated this way, or this is why I can't do such and such, or this is why things are this way."
    -victimization of process
    -blaming others for own faults
    -inability to learn from past mistake (the definition of insanity)
    -in ability to focus on the right priorities
    -not following through on projects (shared with SLI)
    -flakiness; both standard and non standard
    -exhaustive need for extended care even into late adulthood
    -hiding behind self projected weakness (crutches)
    - and the major one: exaggerating events and the truth in regards to Te and Si.
    Some of the same things you are saying about IEE you have said about SEI in the "Do SEIs struggle with introspection" OP (particularly you expressed that SEIs don't learn from past mistakes). I'm seeing a bit of trend that maybe that's how you see other people that aren't you in general. Or else maybe you can explain how i'm wrong?
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Some of the same things you are saying about IEE you have said about SEI in the "Do SEIs struggle with introspection" OP (particularly you expressed that SEIs don't learn from past mistakes). I'm seeing a bit of trend that maybe that's how you see other people that aren't you in general. Or else maybe you can explain how i'm wrong?
    Its something to do with irrationality and introverted sensing. I see SEI and IEE as sufferin from similar problems, which is fine because there is plenty of overlap, but probably for differing reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by waddup View Post
    Its something to do with irrationality and introverted sensing. I see SEI and IEE as sufferin from similar problems, which is fine because there is plenty of overlap, but probably for differing reasons.
    Well what you are saying is that I should take your word for it? How do I know you have typed these people you have in mind for your examples correctly? Reinin, for one, describes IEEs as a very cautious type.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venus Rose View Post
    I haven't experienced duality yet
    I'd recommend to get others' opinions about your type. Also to be sure in your type you need to check it by IR effects with people about which ones types you have assumptions.

    I saw a lot of wrong opinions about own types. The example in this thread is Delilah which has Fe type.

    > so I cannot say for sure what that would be like

    friendly sympathy in IRL communication

    > LSE is attracted to, and admires, the EII's sincerity, and moral uprightness

    they are perceived as kind, polite, intelligent, quiet, following to moral norms, not aggressive, wise, they ones which have personal interest to people and like them "as is"
    not sincerity, but the abbility to be nice, to say the truth in soft way, to avoid redundant conflicts. emotional openness as sincerity more relates to Fe types

    > They admire, like, and respect those that are honest, straightforward, and transparently sincere.

    this reminds base Te. delta also has Fi types which are much opposite. Fi types mb avoid direct lie more than Fe, but to fool indirectly is not against their values

    > I think this facilitates intimacy within the dual pairs as well, since this is so important to them.

    to be honest is important in any pair, despite the types. this makes people psychically closer
    but different important factors may need a compromise

    > As for Delta quadra being 'boring' - well, boring is in the eye of the beholder.

    nonvalued regions are often perceived as boring or annoying
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    I'd recommend to get others' opinions about your type. Also to be sure in your type you need to check it by IR effects with people about which ones types you have assumptions.

    I saw a lot of wrong opinions about own types. The example in this thread is Delilah which has Fe type.

    > so I cannot say for sure what that would be like

    friendly sympathy in IRL communication

    > LSE is attracted to, and admires, the EII's sincerity, and moral uprightness

    they are perceived as kind, polite, intelligent, quiet, following to moral norms, not aggressive, wise, they ones which have personal interest to people and like them "as is"
    not sincerity, but the abbility to be nice, to say the truth in soft way, to avoid redundant conflicts. emotional openness as sincerity more relates to Fe types

    > They admire, like, and respect those that are honest, straightforward, and transparently sincere.

    this reminds base Te. delta also has Fi types which are much opposite. Fi types mb avoid direct lie more than Fe, but to fool indirectly is not against their values

    > I think this facilitates intimacy within the dual pairs as well, since this is so important to them.

    to be honest is important in any pair, despite the types. this makes people psychically closer
    but different important factors may need a compromise

    > As for Delta quadra being 'boring' - well, boring is in the eye of the beholder.

    nonvalued regions are often perceived as boring or annoying
    Stop mentioning my name in vain. Your understanding and application of socionics is actually horrible. And take you underhanded manipulative statements along when you leave. Prick.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Well what you are saying is that I should take your word for it? How do I know you have typed these people you have in mind for your examples correctly? Reinin, for one, describes IEEs as a very cautious type.
    You don't need to take my word for it, socionics is an art form, not science and it will never, ever be science.

    These are the things I have seen in people who, all things considered carefully, are probably IEE. I also stated originally about unhealthy versions, and the list of qualities is not complete and exhaustive. People might have one, two, three, or ten different trouble spots and I'm not entirely sure how to talk about them and explain them through written words. I'm much better verbally and with pictures and images.

    Caution in the reinen dichotomy still wouldn't dis-include the things I've said.

    Delta's can be gentle lambs, or they can be freaking neurotic basket cases. I've seen it all in different levels of society. Next I could talk about how LSE justify infidelity and cheating, because that also happens., and how all four have the potential to be whiny complainers about everything under the sun.

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    @waddup might just be one of my favorite members of the forum now.
    BRB, 🌼 Pushing Daisies 🌼

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venus Rose View Post
    You thought my understanding of the types was incorrect, or others' understanding was?
    In >50% of cases the type which people think as own is doubtful to be correct.

    Without IR (intertype relations) effects (impressions from people, from their nonverbal) checking with good fiting to theory, with >10 people in types of which you are sure, to be sure in own type is not good.

    > I don't know what you mean here.

    Delilah's type is not EII, but Fe.

    > Don't understand this either.

    A dual in IRL (in real life) communication gives you the impression of friendly sympathy. It's the basic trait of a communication with good IR and noticed the most with duals.

    > Delta quadra is a relatively unpretentious, kind, and gentle quadra.

    There are no "unpretentious" types. They all press others to follow own interests, life understanding and try to make the life own and of others good and better, - more so in own valued regions.

    > I am very soft, non-threatening, and non-aggressive, due to weak and unvalued Se.

    Many introverted women, especially with F types, may describe themselves close to this. INFPs easily, for example.

    > I didn't mean emotional openness

    Emotions as part of the information in the communication also relate to "sincerity".

    The delta specifics is higher respect to objective truth as Te, the objective reality. The abbility of Te types to remember the said to notice the direct lie. The good way to inspire an aversion in Te type - to be caughted on direct lie. As S types are harder to understand people then such situations lead to overprotection and the loss of the trust even more. In general, Te/Fi types tend to do not lie directly, but they may mislead indirectly.

    EII more care about being emotionally pleasant than anything else, what fits to being sincere not more than for EIE.

    -

    I hope to see your video in typing section. There are no women on forums in which EII type I'm sure. During all years I write on them. I and others can't trust much to what people type themselves, they need to type themselves and a video would help. While the additional opinions about your type mb useful for you too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venus Rose View Post
    some people misinterpret and misread Fi users, and then they may brand them "manipulative,"
    Some people "misinterpret and misread" the typology theory. The better than T types, conscious control of peoples behavior is the trait of all F types. They all mb called as "manipulative".
    Mostly it's seen as "bad" and hence called by "bad words" like "manipulation" when F values does not match and those kinds of influences are not liked.
    Same subjectivity with what is thought as "bulling". Anything you dislike is bulling.

    There is much of subjectivity in emotionality and in the usage of terms with emotional marks. That was part of what I tried to explain you when you used them. Idealistic simplicity in typology is common for novices.

    Fi types, especially EII/IEE, understand good emotional relativity. Not your case, possibly due to lack of experience with types, or mb other your type. Also for them you shaw too much troubles to understand me, the context of said by me.

    > because they feel manipulated; not because they are being manipulated. Big difference there.

    In general sense, any conscious influence on other human is a manipulation. We want to change in him or his behavior something and influence on him he'd got those changes.
    Last edited by Sol; 11-24-2018 at 12:15 AM.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    @Venus Rose
    The specifics of EII is good understanding of people.
    According to the above - it's not your strong trait and you do not care about this.

    Among the ones who said to have EII I saw: IEI, ESI, SEI, EIE, beta T, etc.

    Based on the known, you seem closer to ESI than to EII. With video your type would be more clear. It's in your interests to understand correctly your type and for a novice the help is significantly useful.

    Among my types examples you could to notice that "gentle" is not the association with LSEs, at least. Kindness is very subjective and more relates to F types having the same valued F.
    When you assign so general positive traits to a single quadra - it's not objective and should insult other quadras.
    My type is LSE.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    In >50% of cases the type which people think as own is doubtful to be correct.

    Without IR (intertype relations) effects (impressions from people, from their nonverbal) checking with good fiting to theory, with >10 people in types of which you are sure, to be sure in own type is not good.

    > I don't know what you mean here.

    Delilah's type is not EII, but Fe.

    > Don't understand this either.

    A dual in IRL (in real life) communication gives you the impression of friendly sympathy. It's the basic trait of a communication with good IR and noticed the most with duals.

    > Delta quadra is a relatively unpretentious, kind, and gentle quadra.

    There are no "unpretentious" types. They all press others to follow own interests, life understanding and try to make the life own and of others good and better, - more so in own valued regions.

    > I am very soft, non-threatening, and non-aggressive, due to weak and unvalued Se.

    Many introverted women, especially with F types, may describe themselves close to this. INFPs easily, for example.

    > I didn't mean emotional openness

    Emotions as part of the information in the communication also relate to "sincerity".

    The delta specifics is higher respect to objective truth as Te, the objective reality. The abbility of Te types to remember the said to notice the direct lie. The good way to inspire an aversion in Te type - to be caughted on direct lie. As S types are harder to understand people then such situations lead to overprotection and the loss of the trust even more. In general, Te/Fi types tend to do not lie directly, but they may mislead indirectly.

    EII more care about being emotionally pleasant than anything else, what fits to being sincere not more than for EIE.

    -

    I hope to see your video in typing section. There are no women on forums in which EII type I'm sure. During all years I write on them. I and others can't trust much to what people type themselves, they need to type themselves and a video would help. While the additional opinions about your type mb useful for you too.



    Some people "misinterpret and misread" the typology theory. The better than T types, conscious control of peoples behavior is the trait of all F types. They all mb called as "manipulative".
    Mostly it's seen as "bad" and hence called by "bad words" like "manipulation" when F values does not match and those kinds of influences are not liked.
    Same subjectivity with what is thought as "bulling". Anything you dislike is bulling.

    There is much of subjectivity in emotionality and in the usage of terms with emotional marks. That was part of what I tried to explain you when you used them. Idealistic simplicity in typology is common for novices.

    Fi types, especially EII/IEE, understand good emotional relativity. Not your case, possibly due to lack of experience with types, or mb other your type. Also for them you shaw too much troubles to understand me, the context of said by me.

    > because they feel manipulated; not because they are being manipulated. Big difference there.

    In general sense, any conscious influence on other human is a manipulation. We want to change in him or his behavior something and influence on him he'd got those changes.
    EII dont care about being emotionally pleasant. Thats Fe, making people happy. Fi only cares about own feelings

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    Quote Originally Posted by waddup View Post
    On IEE end all sorts of nerotisms that could be easily summed down into :

    -"I'm lazy and I don't wanna go through all the hoops that others go through"
    -slovenly
    -disorganized
    -self sabotaging
    -hyper focused on the wrong ethical aspects "im such and such category (black, asian, white, woman, man ect) and therefore this is why I am being treated this way, or this is why I can't do such and such, or this is why things are this way." or the total opposite: "I cannot be catagorized and I am a free agent which is not bound by normie ethics and considerations."
    -victimization of process
    -blaming others for own faults
    -inability to learn from past mistake (the definition of insanity)
    -in ability to focus on the right priorities
    -not following through on projects (shared with SLI)
    -flakiness; both standard and non standard
    -exhaustive need for extended care even into late adulthood
    -hiding behind self projected weakness (crutches)
    - and the major one: exaggerating events and the truth in regards to Te and Si.
    Now I feel like IEE. If this is true, they are REALLY not the "chad lite" you can see from description.
    Anyway, give me any negative persona description and I identify with the worst. Kind of rule.

  37. #157
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    @Venus Rose seems to be telling people they're not typed correctly. I don't know what her view of LSE is, but we're not nice by nature or gentle. LSE in general is a bit harsh, rough around the edges and comes off as such. I would say that EII is harsh as well and also very judgmental. I have been living with my dual all my life, so I know. EIIs are pretty bossy in that they will often push you into making certain choices or decisions. It's not manipulation, that would be Fe. EIIs are more direct than that. ESI are more assertive, sure but EII is tough, it is after all, the ethical core of the delta quadra. I personally can either deal with or avert them fairly well. But I don't get along with every single person I type as my dual. Duals don't automatically like each other. The point is that they don't. I have often dismissed a lot of delta NFs as being impractical, weird, too judgmental, etc. But at the end of the day, I know my dual when I see them. Me delivering facts like this is not Ti, it's Te. If it bothers you, then you're likely not EII.
    100% real SLI. Do not question.

    <<Under construction >>

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    @Pano Lou. I think you are Se valuing as well. You seem to enjoy putting people in their place. You do it excessively too and you take it personally. Like I don't know what happened between you and vesstheastralsilky. But you seem to enter every thread she is in with the purpose of making her feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. That may seem fine to you because no one is speaking of it, or because she isn't one of the cool kids, and I generally think she is old enough to deal with it by herself. But it reflects on you badly. At least from my point of view. I didn't say anything about your ESE typing but it made me chuckle. I would expect my dual to be aware of the things that make me flare up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    @Pano Lou. I think you are Se valuing as well. You seem to enjoy putting people in their place. You do it excessively too and you take it personally. Like I don't know what happened between you and vesstheastralsilky. But you seem to enter every thread she is in with the purpose of making her feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. That may seem fine to you because no one is speaking of it, or because she isn't one of the cool kids, and I generally think she is old enough to deal with it by herself. But it reflects on you badly. At least from my point of view. I didn't say anything about your ESE typing but it made me chuckle. I would expect my dual to be aware of the things that make me flare up.
    My conflict with astralsilky is, if you're curious, she has personally slighted me before. I have tried, in my own capacity, to mend fences with her several times, so yes, she frustrates me. And no, I don't enter "every thread" she makes. What are you even talking about? I don't comment on her threads about people's typings, as they are her subjective view. Anything she has to say about her own quadrant, I don't question because I believe she's typed correctly. I do hold her as an authority on the subject of alphas and even typology in general. I have never questioned that. If you want to get involved in this, you can go look at it yourself but yes, I understand it's petty drama. I don't care if she's one of the "cool kids" or whatever, if you want to view the forum like that.

    I didn't type myself as ESE either. It seems Whatever I type myself as, there's always someone who disagrees lol. I've been around on forums for years and I'm not surprised much by anything people say anymore.

    As for my typing, I VI as LSE, I don't think I'm an ethical type. My ITR's make sense for LSE. I know that EII is my dual, regardless of what Venus Rose may say. I know that ILI is my supervisor, SEI is my supervisee, SLI is my mirror, etc.

    I take on a different persona online than I do IRL and I am a bit of a troll. If you're interested in more "real life" interactions with me, you can look at my type me thread and let me know. There is even a video. I respond to all posts on there.
    100% real SLI. Do not question.

    <<Under construction >>

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    Little words on my xp with duality (men -friendship-, women -love and friendship-)

    1) Ive very hard time with male dominant ESTJ. Almost typed myself INFP for this reason at first. Female don't get me on, I find them often dumb (they probably aren't, just don't like the style). Pushy, just can't imagine you have desire, ambition yourself, everything need to be their way (wich become "the" way....) seem to be unable to introspect, have always right, even when they admit their fault it's for staying over you in an annoying way and generally it end with you feeling guilty whatever the subject or situation. Can't. On a side note, I don't know many, I've probably known some unhealthy ones. Because I can admire some famous one and don't find this bad vibe on them. I think that the problem is that the one Ive known, Ive known them only superficially but failed to open them about their real feeling about things, perhaps a state of mind where they could take thing in an easier and more beautiful way.

    2) Ive had a really good friendship relationship with a creative ESTJ, he was really cool, but he putted not sufficient attention in some domain I was putting attention, idk how to explain. I was finding often he was doing shit with his life almost volontarely. Prob not type related. Anyway it stay a good memory, lot of laugh, lot of experience, this helped myself openning a little about stuff I don't speak often about like speaking about sexuality "like a man". Subject of discussion was really open, it was more myself perhaps that decieved himself because too much closed. His pseudo wannabe spiritual side was really annoying thought, and he didn't made goal like myself, like jumping from a thing to another without taking account that if we stopped a little going everywhere, we could make a great thing together. We have accomplished some stuff together anyway. Relationship ended clearly because I was too introvert/serious/negative (at this time I was somewhat depressed) for him and from some POV differing too much.
    My cousine is a female creative ESTJ and we go along very well, even if there are some stuff we are not seeing the same way, in term of responsabilities/relationship/how we are expressing what we want, dunno how to express it.

    3) Normalizing ESTJ. I only know 4 or 5 female one, we go along very well, here I can really recognize the description of duality given by socionic. Conflict stop smoothly, everything is cool, smooth, fun, not too much, not too little, perfect. It gone bad with one of my ex but that was my fault, it was a bad moment of my life where Ive done shit. If I could I would give temporarly my personnality to them in order they take care a little then take it back without any lack of faith. My main ex was very benevolent to myself, she was trying very much that I give the better of myself, the kind of better that even myself don't know. Really cool relationship.

    4) harmonizing. Had 2 harmonizing ESTJ friend. One was a little annoying (too vain, a kind of empty narcissism -not the disorder, he was cool, we majorly had good time i can't negate-), but the other one was very spiritual and gave a very strong impression in myself. I still admire this personage, he have been my mentor for 6 years. At the core there is still some problem that I have with creative one about setting goal, way of seeing life, etc.
    Last edited by noaydi; 11-28-2018 at 05:20 PM.

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