Does having Fe valuing parents make one value Fe more?

[Zero]

I have always thought about how much someone's parents type affects them and in what ways, since I see that it does, but Fe in a family environment is used alot when both of the parents value it, for example ESE and LSI parents, there is also a lot of unnecessary emotional manipulation.
I find that I might be using the negative side of Fe more than it is healthy for LIE to do so.

[Bertrand]

I feel like I value it less, but use it more (often in a negative capacity)

[Zero]

I feel like I value it less, but use it more (often in a negative capacity)

This is what I meant actually

[Bertrand]

This is what I meant actually

yeah I feel like when you're raised that way (and I definitely know what you mean about there being stupid amounts of games/manipulation) you can't help but pick up some tactics, but also be resentful of the same when you see it going on out there

[Zero]

yeah I feel like when you're raised that way (and I definitely know what you mean about there being stupid amounts of games/manipulation) you can't help but pick up some tactics, but also be resentful of the same when you see it going on out there

It is sort of a defense mechanism, in order to protect yourself against manipulations and games you need to know the rules and the game but once you need to use some of these tactics there is a sense of guilt. also it seems like in Fe valuing parents presence you can't be your true self since there is even a need for emotional manipulation!

[Adam Strange]

I think @May was raised by Betas.

[ashlesha]

My immediate family is all beta, but I'm having trouble thinking of an answer to this, especially in the context of Fe being associated directly with emotional manipulation

[Bertrand]

It is sort of a defense mechanism, in order to protect yourself against manipulations and games you need to know the rules and the game but once you need to use some of these tactics there is a sense of guilt. also it seems like in Fe valuing parents presence you can't be your true self since there is even a need for emotional manipulation!

yes absolutely, this has been my experience

it just leads to a lot of disgust

i honestly greatly dislike my parents for the reason that I feel like they leave me no good options, in exactly the way you describe (compounded by their complete inability to make productive life choices--they just fuck around on the lowest levels and try to compensate with mind games)

[Chae]

ESI mom SLI dad... idk how that influenced my other than duality or supervision-wise

[ApeironStella]

ESE dad and LSI mom, and yep. I picked up a lot of good and bad traits from both- they both have different ways to manipulate others and also to a different extent. ESE is more consistently doing that to keep a more upbeat air and to make others like them to have a belonging in whatever social circle it is- I still find him describe everything with "social levels" association. (Ie I was telling him about how I was glad that I picked TIS as my major since now I found people who I can actually talk with and wouldn't get some empty dumb look from and he automatically made a connection of my majoring being on a "higher social circle" than many other supposedly higher social circle ones and that everyone in said majoring is certainly a lot better than them. This isn't first time he makes such a connection, but it is first time I had the chance to observe with Socionics knowledge to back it up. It used to confuse me as I wasn't much focused on 'social levels'.) I found that their and were often clashing- he would advise me to learn how to blend and take my role in society according to my gender while my mother despises all the overly-mushy 'show' he puts up with others. Her way of 'manipulation' is a lot more subtle, she is simply keeping a smiling face while she is still saying what is on her mind and constantly making sure to not have anything anyone could critize her for- she critizes herself before anyone else can to not give anyone any ammo on that regard. Hers is also more of "making sure I am just social/nice/involved enough to be able to keep my life as unclustered as I can" (sp/so)

What I picked from her is to keep being confident in my even if it is unconventional and use manipulation only if it is for sake of someone's own goodness. From my father, I learned how one can twist things to guilt trip someone else into things and how to blend in and take values of a circle to keep connections with them so you could use them to fall back on when you are in a tight situation. I try not to use bad side of as much as possible, though. It is pretty easy to play the victim with it otherwise. One good thing is I kind of had to make judgements on - clash a lot earlier while playing the translator in-between them, so ended up having a more mild opinion on both, so I suppose it would count as 'valuing' it more?

[Hope]

I have always thought about how much someone's parents type affects them and in what ways, since I see that it does, but Fe in a family environment is used alot when both of the parents value it, for example ESE and LSI parents, there is also a lot of unnecessary emotional manipulation.
I find that I might be using the negative side of Fe more than it is healthy for LIE to do so.

Not so sure...My mom is ESE and I'm Fe vulnerable.

[Zero]

I think @May was raised by Betas.

This is how LIEs use Ni. Track the evidence . Why do you think so?

[Zero]

yes absolutely, this has been my experience

it just leads to a lot of disgust

i honestly greatly dislike my parents for the reason that I feel like they leave me no good options, in exactly the way you describe (compounded by their complete inability to make productive life choices--they just fuck around on the lowest levels and try to compensate with mind games)

Yes I call it housewife behaviour. Not to say that only housewives develope it but anyone who sits at home for a long time not being productive, for example a retired man can develope hoisewife behaviour. It is one of my beliefs that having nothing to do, the brain creates useless games to create something to think about and stay active and excited a bit. Actually at first "disgust" was the word I typed but then thought maybe it is not good to say it. After a while it makes me wonder if true and deep family feelings exist? Maybe they do for some

[Zero]

ESI mom SLI dad... idk how that influenced my other than duality or supervision-wise

What is it like to have a ESI mom? Agressively caring?

[FDG]

Well Fe isn't "negative emotional manipulation of family members"

[Zero]

@Ayuhime
Mine are ESE mum and LSI dad! But at least you value Fe and have a dual in your family.
The way my mum speaks of social levels makes me upset, and she always seems to feel I am being ironic and mean while I am just making a joke. Every ESE I meet accuses me of being an ironic robot. And I also have 0 tolerance for guilt trip which both of my parents have always done.
What bothers me the most is how masked everything is and how no deep feelings and true care are present in an atmosphere which is meant to look good.
I tried being the translator when I was younger but when I wanted to solve their probems, since it all seemed to simple,they only gathered more information on how to manipulate me more later, and used me as a sort of pawn.
Maybe there are healthy Fe valuing parents who don't do this

[Zero]

Well Fe isn't "negative emotional manipulation of family members"

There is a possibility that Fe turns into it

[FDG]

There is a possibility that Fe turns into it

I was thinking Fe is oftentimes more about public image. Maybe if you give us a concrete example of your idea we can think about it more reasonably.

[Zero]

Not so sure...My mom is ESE and I'm Fe vulnerable.

My sister is SLI and my mum is ESE and how that works is that my sister gets influenced easily by my mum's opinions about what is to be done in any social situation, and as soon as my mum tells her "this is the way to do it in this social situation" she accepts without any further discussion. She is also easily upset by comments from my mum pointing out her anti social behaviour and sometimes bitterness and will repeat what she said for days and ask close friends if they really think she doesn't know how to comminicate etc. So every little comment my mum makes about Fe causes major changes in her mood

[Zero]

I was thinking Fe is oftentimes more about public image. Maybe if you give us a concrete example of your idea we can think about it more reasonably.

Yes but for reaching that desired public image some manipulation is needed.
What is not reasonable about what I am saying?

[Zero]

I was thinking Fe is oftentimes more about public image. Maybe if you give us a concrete example of your idea we can think about it more reasonably.

A small example would be how ESEs victimise themselves. "Poor me, I did nothing" and turn the crowd against the person they have conflict with. Like gathering soldiers or something. And you see how the "possible disorder" for ESE is masochist. Just like it is Sadist for LIE . I am talking about Oldham's theory here http://www.the16types.info/info/types/ESFJ.htm
And yet I love and appreciate how sometimes ESEs can make a joke and calm the atmosphere and anger

[FDG]

Yes but for reaching that desired public image some manipulation is needed.
What is not reasonable about what I am saying?

Just that without further details it's hard for me to understand the specific issue. I haven't had Fe parents btw.

[ashlesha]

I'm at a loss. My LSI dad isn't manipulative. My IEI mom could be at times but I think it was expressed via her Fe and not as a result of it. It seems like this thread is an engine for discussing emotional abuse but the title is "Does having Fe valuing parents make one value Fe more?"

[Aylen]

Some of the best manipulators don't even value Fe. They can use contrived emotion, guilt or logic to manipulate. I find that kind of manipulation far more insidious than any genuine expression of Fe which is often inspirational and mood enhancing. I find Fi valuers with impossible moral standards (that they don't even live up to) to be the best at guilt tripping.

Considering all the ways people on this forum disagree on or are confused at to what is Fi ot Fe it is possible there are a lot of erroneous assumptions being made.

* I don't believe all Fi valuers have impossible moral standards. I go on a case by case basis instead of attributing an undesirable behavior to a whole type or quadra.

[Zero]

I'm at a loss. My LSI dad isn't manipulative. My IEI mom could be at times but I think it was expressed via her Fe and not as a result of it. It seems like this thread is an engine for discussing emotional abuse but the title is "Does having Fe valuing parents make one value Fe more?"

Humm if sounds like you are right. I am not talking about valuing Fe at all. It is interesting how you say "expressed via her Fe and not as a result of it" because for IEI, Fe is the creative function

[ApeironStella]

@Ayuhime
Mine are ESE mum and LSI dad! But at least you value Fe and have a dual in your family.
The way my mum speaks of social levels makes me upset, and she always seems to feel I am being ironic and mean while I am just making a joke. Every ESE I meet accuses me of being an ironic robot. And I also have 0 tolerance for guilt trip which both of my parents have always done.
What bothers me the most is how masked everything is and how no deep feelings and true care are present in an atmosphere which is meant to look good.
I tried being the translator when I was younger but when I wanted to solve their probems, since it all seemed to simple,they only gathered more information on how to manipulate me more later, and used me as a sort of pawn.
Maybe there are healthy Fe valuing parents who don't do this

Yeah, I sort of had it easier due to already valuing to some extend. Though, I wouldn't exactly say that having a dual as a parent is such a nice thing when they aren't exactly the healthiest example of their type either? I kind of have a bad impression of my duals with coming across pretty unhealthy ones, starting with him, so.

And ah, is your mother perhaps an enneagram 2 by any chance? Both 2s and ESEs have that guilt-trip attitude when they feel what they do for others isn't appreciated. And well. I tend to have more of "I would very much like to stay away from you thx" attitude towards them really.

I am more surprised of LSI parent being so manipulative as well- I saw extends of ESEs but I haven't really seen my mother getting to such an unhealthy level? How is it with your father?

And yeah, there is information gathering to hit where it hurts when you get angry with unhealthy I suppose, which kind of was a theme with my father.

Also, I really don't know your parents to be able to talk for them, but I am kind of wondering if they actually felt like they were being sincerely caring towards you and there was more of - disconnection there. Again, they really might be horrible people, I have no information on it to make a call. But perceived or actually malicious- it still sounds pretty tough.

[Zero]

Okay people seems my point of view is biased, maybe someone should explain what the mistake is.
What I have experienced by Fe are both good and bad, and I have asked the wrong question, since what I had in mind was not "value Fe" but more like being more aware of Fe.
Maybe we should now discuss does having Fe valuing parents make one "value" Fe more? And I think the answer is unclear based on childhood experiences and family environment. So maybe one can value it more and the other one hate it more. Even though hating something is also in a way valuing it

[Hope]

My sister is SLI and my mum is ESE and how that works is that my sister gets influenced easily by my mum's opinions about what is to be done in any social situation, and as soon as my mum tells her "this is the way to do it in this social situation" she accepts without any further discussion. She is also easily upset by comments from my mum pointing out her anti social behaviour and sometimes bitterness and will repeat what she said for days and ask close friends if they really think she doesn't know how to comminicate etc. So every little comment my mum makes about Fe causes major changes in her mood

That's not familiar, honestly.
I don't care what mom says about social situations. F.e. She's always saying how I should dress and that I should be sweeter or that I'm too grumpy or bad tempered and I don't care (stuff has been this way since I was young).
I'm not easily upset by her comments, I'm upset when she starts repeating herself over and over and over again and when she's not listening what I say just continue talking. My outrage don't last anyway, its just a short burst, 10 min later I'll be without a second thought. Anyway I try to be patient with her because I hate yelling at her.

[Adam Strange]

Okay people seems my point of view is biased, maybe someone should explain what the mistake is.
What I have experienced by Fe are both good and bad, and I have asked the wrong question, since what I had in mind was not "value Fe" but more like being more aware of Fe.
Maybe we should now discuss does having Fe valuing parents make one "value" Fe more? And I think the answer is unclear based on childhood experiences and family environment. So maybe one can value it more and the other one hate it more. Even though hating something is also in a way valuing it

Seems like a reasonable question to me.

I have found that there is a huge difference between daily life with Fe-valuers vs. Fi-valuers. My family is mostly Delta, and my cousins are mostly Beta, and the impression I got from my Delta parents regarding my Beta cousins was exactly what @Bertrand said: "they just fuck around on the lowest levels and try to compensate with mind games". My opinion has since been modified greatly, but the fact that I thought this way for years says something about Fi vs. Fe.

But to reply to your question, my parents are Si-valuing, and it has certainly caused me to appreciate (value) Si more than I otherwise might. I can't do Si, so I apparently developed more Se. And focusing on Se may have strengthened my Te, to the point of making me LIE-Te.

[ashlesha]

I could talk about the communication differences that have arisen between me and my parents but it wouldn't fall in the realm of "this is how they're manipulative assholes who have oppressed me with Fe"

[Zero]

@Ayuhime
Yes I sometimes dislike the traits I see in ESIs which are similar to LSI, simply because they remind me of an unhealthy LSI which was my father so having an unhealthy dual in family is bad since you will try hard to understand them and be there for them but they may not work that way.
I don't read about enneagrams alot so I can't answer that well.
LSI being manipulative examples? When I decided to become an engineer my father kept insisting I study medicine and become a specialist, surgeon etc, maybe it is also related to the fact that the economic situation of my country is not good, and parents are very worried about their child's financial situation and future. And he used weird techniques, every time he saw me he mentioned something about money and medicine and social status and prestige etc and made me feel guilty.

[Zero]

That's not familiar, honestly.
I don't care what mom says about social situations. F.e. She's always saying how I should dress and that I should be sweeter or that I'm too grumpy or bad tempered and I don't care (stuff has been this way since I was young).
I'm not easily upset by her comments, I'm upset when she starts repeating herself over and over and over again and when she's not listening what I say just continue talking. My outrage don't last anyway, its just a short burst, 10 min later I'll be without a second thought. Anyway I try to be patient with her because I hate yelling at her.

But I think how you should dress is Si and I think if i tell my sister she will think she is not affected by ESE but from the outside it seems to me this way
Oh yes the thing about not letting the other person talk also bugs her
It is only an observation, maybe not type related then

[Zero]

Ok maybe changing the title will make things more clear

[scio]

This thread is really great. I agree in that having Fe valuing parents makes me value it way less. I grew up thinking that I was a thinker (lol) because of the simple fact that I am outwardly cold. My internal view of myself (someone that gets offended by dumb shit all the time) was always contradicted by how my parents saw me. I should add I was raised by two Beta NFs.
My EIE dad never said anything but when I had moments of being I guess objectively rude my IEI mom would chastise me for being so cold to her even though I'm still the one always there for her and taking care of her whenever she needs it. This contradiction still baffles me as she would so much rather be shallowly nice to her and she doesn't care that I am deeply supportive of her and always present. I felt very misunderstood and confused about what "being there" for someone even meant growing up, now I have a strong distaste for this shallowness and know that I am not mean or cold. I have Fi creative and am always expressing verbally that I care about both of my parents but I feel conflicted as they make cruel jokes that seem to me passive aggressive. Maybe this is Beta vs Delta communication but I just never understood it. My dad actually appears on the surface way more similar to me and then after spending time with him it becomes apparent at how damaging the Fi ignoring was to me as a kid. His idea of being close is learning a few facts about me and after a few hours are up he is good to go. I use Fe but only so people don't think I'm crazy or rude. However, my ENTj sister actually does use Fe quite well when she has to and may resent it even less than I do. I rebel and purposefully don't use Fe unless I have to.
I also want to add that manipulation is so subjective. In any extraverted function that is unvalued, it can feel like manipulation because you won't value being "swayed" that way. Sorry if this is incoherent, I'm typing this at work.

[GuavaDrunk]

I had two Fe-valuing parents (ILE and EIE) and ended up using Ne more, despite being Fe-ego myself.

[Syynth]

My LSE dad is something of an -Te evangelist. I don't think that made me value the function more, but I do habitually critique other people with it, and after I often think to myself, "Why did I say that? Why do I even care?"

[The Exception]

I had one of each growing up. Mother- SEI/ESE mother and SLI father. Being an LII, I always connected with my mother more, probably due to the shared Fe valuing.

[Delilah]

I'd expect someone like the OP describes to have an appreciation for stories, or maybe get into those fiction / reality alternatives.

To me I tend to take someone on their word for what they say, well not anymore but used to be so, and there's a lot of fiction in Fe exchanges and actually even a small exchange of 'how did your day go' might involve a lot of Fe fiction and used to let me down a lot when young if i'd found out otherwise; I'd say i simply grew from credulous (yes, a long time ago) to distrustful to internally questioning as a constant running script inside my head.

There's also some drama, which I can appreciate but only in ESE since they make it plain obvious that it is a bit of recital fun (with EIEs it might be more complex, dunno)

[Zero]

I'd expect someone like the OP describes to have an appreciation for stories, or maybe get into those fiction / reality alternatives.

To me I tend to take someone on their word for what they say, well not anymore but used to be so, and there's a lot of fiction in Fe exchanges and actually even a small exchange of 'how did your day go' might involve a lot of Fe fiction and used to let me down a lot when young if i'd found out otherwise; I'd say i simply grew from credulous (yes, a long time ago) to distrustful to internally questioning as a constant running script inside my head.

There's also some drama, which I can appreciate but only in ESE since they make it plain obvious that it is a bit of recital fun (with EIEs it might be more complex, dunno)

Do you ever notice the ESE and EIE's tone of voice when talking? ESE explains really trivial matters with so much feelings and changes their voice tone and even gasps sometimes, I point it out when they do that, and they are like isn't there even a bit of fun in you? How else am I supposed to make it sound interesting? Haha
And EIE also change their voice tone a lot. But there are some clues of Se HA available in it too. Maybe this is why they sound so sure of themselves. Their manipulative games seem a lot less fun and harmless than ESE's from the outside, but both of them belong to Merry dichotomy, I sometimes take their actions too seriously

[Bertrand]

my mom is EIE (possibly IEI, but pretty sure EIE) and her constant refrain of exasperation with me is "whatever, your whole life no one could ever tell you what to do", and I want to respond with "its because you only use ethics to boss people around; watch me around someone with real (practical) advice (Te) and its like I'm the most agreeable person ever." There's an LIE kid I work with whos 10 years younger, I love him like a little brother and its hilarious because I'll basically do whatever he says when it comes to doing a job. She's been trying to use Fe on someone with Fi in their zone of confidence and its been non stop frustration for both of us

of course she can't tell me what to do, I feel like I know right and wrong better than her, or at least how I'm feeling and I interpret that as right or wrong, so I don't need an external source; I already know with certainty!

my kingdom for some Te!