Are there any intertype relations that are significantly better or worse between certain individual types?

[Muddy]

What I said in the title. The only thing I'm aware of now is that of Se egos tending to rub up against other much more then other types that share an Ego function.

[mclane]

From what I've observed, the Illusionary ITR tends to be better when both types are Te-Fi or Fe-Ti types. For example ILE and IEI get along better than LSI and LIE.

[Chae]

What my Fi spotted with members on here is that any ST gets on well with me to an extent, even LSI and SLE. But fellow NFs can leave me ungrounded, plus we philosophize each other into nothingness or might compete.

For instance, I would prefer to talk with @Pole Ninja (LSI) over @yifflord (IEE) if I had to choose, not because I hate the latter and love the former, stick with me; here's why. Yiff & I are so similar, and spread so much intangible chaos, it's hard to combine even though we found liking in each other in many conversations. It's like how you said in the OP, times two, just the intuitive version. Ninja and I, however, are fundamentally different and occupied in opposite thought and living realms. In a nutshell, the intertype relation has more complementary potential when we have space. One-on-one all the time would not work at all but the right measure brings out the NF-ST balance.

I hope it's a good example, but take it with a grain of salt because of bias.

[Pole]

What my Fi spotted with members on here is that any ST gets on well with me to an extent, even LSI and SLE. But fellow NFs can leave me ungrounded, plus we philosophize each other into nothingness or might compete.

For instance, I would prefer to talk with @Pole Ninja (LSI) over @yifflord (IEE) if I had to choose, not because I hate the latter and love the former, stick with me; here's why. Yiff & I are so similar, and spread so much intangible chaos, it's hard to combine even though we found liking in each other in many conversations. It's like how you said in the OP, times two, just the intuitive version. Ninja and I, however, are fundamentally different and occupied in opposite thought and living realms. In a nutshell, the intertype relation has more complementary potential when we have space. One-on-one all the time would not work at all but the right measure brings out the NF-ST balance.

I hope it's a good example, but take it with a grain of salt because of bias.

As long as any NF types never lead me on a wild goose chase or mess with my resources I do not mind their company, tho some have in the past I am wary and set firm boundaries and I never lend them money or let them live in my house LOL.

[Chae]

As long as any NF types never lead me on a wild goose chase or mess with my resources I do not mind their company, tho some have in the past I am wary and set firm boundaries and I never lend them money or let them live in my house LOL.

Goose chase? Wild indeed! Ehhh that's legit as heck. You got the 8 swerve, and 8's business can't be anything less than that, intertype relationships aside. I saw you retyped as 5 though, how did that come to be? Or maybe I missed a post of yours somewhere about it.

[Pole]

Goose chase? Wild indeed! Ehhh that's legit as heck. You got the 8 swerve, and 8's business can't be anything less than that, intertype relationships aside. I saw you retyped as 5 though, how did that come to be? Or maybe I missed a post of yours somewhere about it.

I can't decide if I'm an 8 with a 5 fix or a 5 with an 8 fix. I know they are both in my tritype for sure. I am in this facebook group that is testing everyone's enneagram based on one of the E typing books. They said I was 5w6 with an 8 fix and I can buy it. For an 8 I'd be really small and quiet.

[Jerdle]

Probably Superego is best between ILE and SEE (Ep, similar hardness, unlike SLE and IEE), and worst between EII and LSI (Ij, very different hardness). LIE and ESE seems fairly good too.

[Olimpia]

I've written an extensive blog post about it...
Though the main focus is on romantic relationships between men and women.

 

This post is inspired by this thread by Director Abbie.
Here, I rate the "romantic satisfaction" of all intertype relations from 0 to 10, based on anecdotal evidence and observations (of most matches of that kind; individual experiences will differ, dependent on subtypes, Enneagram, personal preferences etc). Ratings I am not as sure about will be in cursive.

Possible explanation for why the ratings differ amongst the genders in two words: gender roles. Furthermore, there have been studies showing that extroverted women were the least happy with introverted men on average. Not surprisingly, most introverted men ended up with fellow introverts. Besides that, I have found that certain types have personal standards that their Dual may not always fulfill; for instance, NTs commonly want high logical intelligence in a mate, and EIIs commonly want a mate with a good moral sense or core.

Note: This overview only deals with heterosexual couples. I do not have enough insight into homosexual relationships to also provide an overview for their relationship dynamics. One possible way to make this overview work for you as a homosexual, is to assign the "male" part to the person who fits the male gender role better (e.g "Butch lesbian" or "Top"), and the "female" part to the person who fits the female gender role better (e.g "Lipstick lesbian" or "Bottom"). It would be appreciated if you could add your own experiences in the comments below.

0-4: Below Average
5-5.5: Average
6-7: Above Average/Good
8-10: Great

---

Extroverted Male with Introverted Female

 

SEE-ILI: 10
ILE-SEI: 9
LIE-ESI: 8.5
SLE-IEI: 10
LSE-EII: 7.5
ESE-LII: 7.5
EIE-LSI: 8
IEE-SLI: 8.5

 

EIE-IEI: 6.5
SLE-LSI: 6
ILE-LII: 7.5
ESE-SEI: 7
LIE-ILI: 6
SEE-ESI: 6.5
LSE-SLI: 6.5
IEE-EII: 7

 

ILE-IEI: 7.5
ESE-EII: 7.5
SLE-SEI: 7.5
EIE-ESI: 7.5
LIE-LSI: 7
SEE-SLI: 7.5
LSE-LII: 5.5
IEE-ILI: 7.5

 

ILE-SLI: 7.5
ESE-LSI: 7.5
SLE-ILI: 7
EIE-LII: 7
LIE-EII: 7.5
SEE-IEI: 7.5
LSE-ESI: 7.5
IEE-SEI: 7.5

 

ILE-EII: 4
ILE-LSI: 4
ESE-SLI: 4
ESE-IEI: 4.5
SLE-ESI: 4.5
SLE-LII: 3.5
EIE-SEI: 4.5
EIE-ILI: 4
LIE-IEI: 4
LIE-SLI: 4.5
SEE-LSI: 3
SEE-EII: 3.5
LSE-ILI: 3.5
LSE-SEI: 4.5
IEE-ESI: 3.5
IEE-LII: 3

 

ESE-ESI: 3.5
ILE-ILI: 3
SLE-SLI: 3
EIE-EII: 3.5
LIE-LII: 2
SEE-SEI: 3.5
LSE-LSI: 2
IEE-IEI: 3.5

 

ILE-ESI: 0.5
ESE-ILI: 0.5
SLE-EII: 0.5
EIE-SLI: 0.5
LIE-SEI: 0.5
SEE-LII: 0.5
LSE-IEI: 0.5
IEE-LSI: 1

Extroverted Female with Introverted Male

 

SEE-ILI: 6.5
ILE-SEI: 7.5
LIE-ESI: 7
SLE-IEI: 6
LSE-EII: 6.5
ESE-LII: 6.5
EIE-LSI: 8
IEE-SLI: 8.5

 

EIE-IEI: 5.5
SLE-LSI: 6
ILE-LII: 7
ESE-SEI: 5.5
LIE-ILI: 5.5
SEE-ESI: 6.5
LSE-SLI: 6
IEE-EII: 7

 

ILE-IEI: 7.5
ESE-EII: 7
SLE-SEI: 5.5
EIE-ESI: 7.5
LIE-LSI: 7
SEE-SLI: 7.5
LSE-LII: 5.5
IEE-ILI: 7.5

 

ILE-SLI: 7
ESE-LSI: 7.5
SLE-ILI: 6
EIE-LII: 7
LIE-EII: 7
SEE-IEI: 6.5
LSE-ESI: 7.5
IEE-SEI: 6.5

 

ILE-EII: 4
ILE-LSI: 4
ESE-SLI: 4.5
ESE-IEI: 3.5
SLE-ESI: 4.5
SLE-LII: 3
EIE-SEI: 4
EIE-ILI: 4.5
LIE-IEI: 3
LIE-SLI: 4.5
SEE-LSI: 4.5
SEE-EII: 3.5
LSE-ILI: 3
LSE-SEI: 3.5
IEE-ESI: 4.5
IEE-LII: 4

 

ESE-ESI: 3
ILE-ILI: 2
SLE-SLI: 2
EIE-EII: 3
LIE-LII: 2.5
SEE-SEI: 3
LSE-LSI: 3.5
IEE-IEI: 3.5

 

ILE-ESI: 0
ESE-ILI: 0.5
SLE-EII: 0
EIE-SLI: 1
LIE-SEI: 0
SEE-LII: 0.5
LSE-IEI: 0
IEE-LSI: 2

Introvert with Introvert

 

IEI-IEI: 8
LSI-LSI: 5.5
ESI-ESI: 9
ILI-ILI: 5.5
SEI-SEI: 7.5
LII-LII: 7.5
EII-EII: 8
SLI-SLI: 6

 

LSI(m)-IEI(f): 7.5
LSI(f)-IEI(m): 6.5
LII(m)-SEI(f): 7.5
LII(f)-SEI(m): 6.5
ILI(m)-ESI(f): 8
ILI(f)-ESI(m): 7.5
SLI(m)-EII(f): 8.5
SLI(f)-EII(m): 6.5

 

LII(m)-LSI(f): 4.5
LII(f)-LSI(m): 5
SEI(f)-SLI(m): 6.5
SEI(m)-SLI(f): 5.5
IEI(f)-ILI(m): 6.5
IEI(m)-ILI(f): 6
ESI(f)-EII(m): 6
ESI(m)-EII(f): 5.5

 

SEI(m)-IEI(f): 6
SEI(f)-IEI(m): 5.5
LII(m)-EII(f): 6
LII(f)-EII(m): 5.5
LSI(m)-ESI(f): 7.5
LSI(f)-ESI(m): 6
SLI(m)-ILI(f): 6.5
SLI(f)-ILI(m): 6

 

LII(m)-IEI(f): 6
LII(f)-IEI(m): 5.5
LII(m)-SLI(f): 5
LII(f)-SLI(m): 5.5
IEI(f)-ESI(m): 5.5
IEI(m)-ESI(f): 5.5
ESI(f)-SLI(m): 5.5
ESI(m)-SLI(f): 6
SEI(f)-EII(m): 5.5
SEI(m)-EII(f): 5.5
EII(f)-ILI(m): 5.5
EII(m)-ILI(f): 5.5
LSI(f)-SEI(m): 5
LSI(m)-SEI(f): 6.5
LSI(m)-ILI(f): 5.5
LSI(f)-ILI(m): 5.5

 

SEI(f)-ILI(m): 1.5
SEI(m)-ILI(f): 1.5
LII(m)-ESI(f): 3
LII(f)-ESI(m): 2
IEI(f)-SLI(m): 3
IEI(m)-SLI(f): 1.5
LSI(m)-EII(f): 3
LSI(f)-EII(m): 1.5

 

SEI(f)-ESI(m): 2
SEI(m)-ESI(f): 1.5
LII(m)-ILI(f): 1.5
LII(f)-ILI(m): 1
IEI(m)-EII(f): 2
IEI(f)-EII(m): 1.5
LSI(f)-SLI(m): 1
LSI(m)-SLI(f): 2

Extrovert with Extrovert

 

EIE-EIE: 6.5
SLE-SLE: 8.5
ILE-ILE: 6.5
ESE-ESE: 8
LIE-LIE: 5.5
SEE-SEE: 5.5
LSE-LSE: 5
IEE-IEE: 6.5

 

ILE(m)-ESE(f): 7
ILE(f)-ESE(m): 6.5
SLE(m)-EIE(f): 7.5
SLE(f)-EIE(m): 6.5
LIE(m)-SEE(f): 6
LIE(f)-SEE(m): 5.5
LSE(m)-IEE(f): 6
LSE(f)-IEE(m): 6

 

ILE(m)-IEE(f): 5.5
ILE(f)-IEE(m): 5.5
ESE(m)-EIE(f): 5.5
ESE(f)-EIE(m): 5.5
SLE(m)-SEE(f): 6
SLE(f)-SEE(m): 5.5
LIE(m)-LSE(f): 4.5
LIE(f)-LSE(m): 4.5

 

ESE(f)-LSE(m): 7
ESE(m)-LSE(f): 5
ILE(m)-SLE(f): 6.5
ILE(f)-SLE(m): 5
EIE(f)-LIE(m): 6.5
EIE(m)-LIE(f): 6
IEE(m)-SEE(f): 6
IEE(f)-SEE(m): 6

 

ESE(f)-SLE(m): 5.5
ESE(m)-SLE(f): 5.5
SLE(m)-LIE(f): 5.5
SLE(f)-LIE(m): 5.5
LIE(m)-IEE(f): 5.5
LIE(f)-IEE(m): 5
IEE(f)-ESE(m): 5.5
IEE(m)-ESE(f): 5.5
LSE(m)-SEE(f): 5
LSE(f)-SEE(m): 4.5
SEE(f)-EIE(m): 5
SEE(m)-EIE(f): 5.5
EIE(f)-ILE(m): 5.5
EIE(m)-ILE(f): 5.5
ILE(m)-LSE(f): 5.5
ILE(f)-LSE(m): 4.5

 

ESE(f)-LIE(m): 2.5
ESE(m)-LIE(f): 1.5
ILE(m)-SEE(f): 3
ILE(f)-SEE(m): 2
SLE(f)-IEE(m): 2
SLE(m)-IEE(f): 3
EIE(m)-LSE(f): 1.5
EIE(f)-LSE(m): 3

 

ILE(f)-LIE(m): 1
ILE(m)-LIE(f): 1.5
ESE(m)-SEE(f): 1.5
ESE(f)-SEE(m): 1.5
SLE(f)-LSE(m): 1
SLE(m)-LSE(f): 1
EIE(m)-IEE(f): 2
EIE(f)-IEE(m): 2

---

The highest ranking relationships: SEE(m)-ILI(f), SLE(m)-IEI(f), ILE(m)-SEI(f), ESI-ESI
The lowest ranking relationships: SLE(f)-EII(m), LSE(f)-IEI(m), LIE(f)-SEI(m), ILE(f)-ESI(m)

This overview does not claim that every highest ranking relationship will be great; of course both individuals need to be attracted to each other and compatible on other levels beyond Socionics in order to have a great relationship. But all else equal, those matches tend to be the most satisfactory for the people involved and the most satisfied in comparison to the other ITR matches on average (in modern Western society).

The lowest rating I've found amongst long-term (married) couples was 4.5.

[Tearsofaclown]

I heard EIE and LSI is illegal in some states.

[Tearsofaclown]

I've written an extensive blog post about it...
Though the main focus is on romantic relationships between men and women.

Oh God, your Ti. The need to classify, classify, classify. Take the magic out of things. My God. Everything is a spreadsheet to you people. lol.

[Olimpia]

Oh God, your Ti. The need to classify, classify, classify. Take the magic out of things. My God. Everything is a spreadsheet to you people. lol.

Haha I know, that blog post is a huge Ti HA moment. xD

But it should more or less answer the OP's question.

[Tearsofaclown]

Haha I know, that blog post is a huge Ti HA moment. xD

But it should more or less answer the OP's question.

You are exactly like this other IEI I know. lol. She does the same stuff.

I'm sure you have heard of Mike Tyson. Badass boxer. He said, "Everybody has a plan till they get hit." I think that quote came before him but it was by a boxer regardless. You can have all the plans you want, but when reality strikes and burns your blueprints you better adjust. Everything is always changing. Not talking about you but I know some people who see the world as a static board. Like a boardgame and all the pieces are where they were last turn. No. That board is always changing and you must keep up with it. I have seen that as critique of Ne polr. ENTP on LSI: "logical but no creativity. couldn't do anything without an instruction manual" I am the opposite. I can't do anything with an instruction manual.


Having totality means being capable of following “what is,” because “what is” is constantly moving and changing. If one is anchored to a particular view, one will not be able to follow the swift movements of “what is.” Bruce Lee

Nietzsche said same thing. Convictions are greater enemies of truth than lies.

[flames]

The highest ranking relationships: SEE(m)-ILI(f), SLE(m)-IEI(f), ILE(m)-SEI(f), ESI-ESI

Well it's a good thing ESI-ESI is high ranking since you type everyone ESI.

(I had to make the joke, no offense at all )

[Pallas]

The need to classify, classify, classify. Take the magic out of things.

In any case, if classifying and analyzing things takes the magic out of it for you, then you're too on-board the bandwagon. For example, colors. There are tons of color theories, and many of them are valid. Doesn't diminish the experience of looking at a painting.

[Pallas]

Well it's a good thing ESI-ESI is high ranking since you type everyone ESI.

(I had to make the joke, no offense at all )

I'm not sure where she finds SEE males and ILI females though, since those types purportedly don't exist according to socionics folk knowledge. SLE and IEI also seem too rare in her theory to get real data on.

[Bertrand]

Well it's a good thing ESI-ESI is high ranking since you type everyone ESI.

(I had to make the joke, no offense at all )

ESI master race

[Olimpia]

I'm not sure where she finds SEE males and ILI females though, since those types purportedly don't exist according to socionics folk knowledge. SLE and IEI also seem too rare in her theory to get real data on.

SEE and SLE males aren't that rare, imo. Ni ego types tend to be more rare as a whole based on my observations, but those ILI-SEE and IEI-SLE couples I have come across were all very satisfied and happy. They aren't as common as other matches, but they have had higher satisfaction ime.

And of course you could judge this entire list to be all subjective, but I think this is a problem in Socionics in general; there are hardly (if at all) any real and legit studies out there.

The ones that claim that Duality is the most common inter type relation amongst (married) couples and that all types are equally distributed are obviously and embarrassingly inaccurate, imo. Those two "studies" come from the same person if I remember correctly, so...

At last, I actually don't believe ESI is the most common type. It is amongst the most common. To me it seems like Alpha SF women and ISTx men are the most common in the general population, followed by female Gamma SFs and male ESTx. This impression is based on my own observations as well as MBTI studies I have come across. Of course MBTI is not the same as Socionics etc etc., but at least their studies are much more accurate. They can actually test many people with a standardized questionnaire. That doesn't mean their method is infallible, but it tends to be much more accurate on a larger scale than any Socionics "study" I have ever come across so far.

[Tearsofaclown]

In any case, if classifying and analyzing things takes the magic out of it for you, then you're too on-board the bandwagon. For example, colors. There are tons of color theories, and many of them are valid. Doesn't diminish the experience of looking at a painting.

What bandwagon?

Who are you to tell me what diminishes my experience?

[flames]

To me it seems like Alpha SF women and ISTx men are the most common in the general population, followed by female Gamma SFs.

I actually agree with this. Alpha SF women are everywhere, you can't even escape them. Guys tend to be Beta ST more than any other type, IMO. Alpha SF girl with Beta ST guy is a very common couple to see.

[dot]

You are exactly like this other IEI I know. lol. She does the same stuff.

I'm sure you have heard of Mike Tyson. Badass boxer. He said, "Everybody has a plan till they get hit." I think that quote came before him but it was by a boxer regardless. You can have all the plans you want, but when reality strikes and burns your blueprints you better adjust. Everything is always changing. Not talking about you but I know some people who see the world as a static board. Like a boardgame and all the pieces are where they were last turn. No. That board is always changing and you must keep up with it. I have seen that as critique of Ne polr. ENTP on LSI: "logical but no creativity. couldn't do anything without an instruction manual" I am the opposite. I can't do anything with an instruction manual.


Having totality means being capable of following “what is,” because “what is” is constantly moving and changing. If one is anchored to a particular view, one will not be able to follow the swift movements of “what is.” Bruce Lee

Nietzsche said same thing. Convictions are greater enemies of truth than lies.

Sweet Jesus may I thank you for this insightful and inspirational post. It really clicked for me yesterday. Especially the quotes hit a sweet spot, since the boxer reference reminded me of one of my favourite quotes "Fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee" by Muhammad Ali.

As an IEI I can understand the problem with Ti Ha obviously. Most of my life I would see situations, problems just from my perspective and the way I UNDERSTOOD them. Like there is this Ni-Ti loophole, where you start thinking "But I thought like this and that's why I did that and and and..." and you just move in circles, you do NOT move forward. I would only see problems from inwards.. not the way they appeared on the outside, the way they appeared to other people. I would not be able to see the reality of other people when two world views and worlds would "collide".
To view yourself from the outside, the way you appear, the way your actions make sense to other people, to just get a fucking reality check (probably Te POLR?) is so fucking important. To at least CONSIDER your actions not looking the same to other people and that there is another understanding to them.
It felt veeery painful to break through that way of thinking and only extremely intense experiences helped me to realise my mistakes. I basically made this realisation at one of the worst times of my life, which turned out to be the thing I fucking needed. Basically the best thing that could have happened to me, because my life changed so much afterwards. Pain and painful situations are always indicators that there is something that has to be changed, especially if they appear frequently out of similar reasons.

IEIs live in their little holes aka rooms, where they avoid reality and confrontations with their Ti Ha for the longest time (that's the only way to not question your own logic after all and that's why so many IEIs make it through life only ever seeing their own way of thinking, never the other one). I see people handle Ti Ha very differently, I see the avoidant ones and then there are the ones like me where I just am very confrontational and defend my opinion to the bitter end. Man did it get me into many fights throughout my life, combined with that fight picking Se seeking.

My SEE stepfather always said it is one of my greatest strengths and weaknesses at the same time. I would always stand up for my beliefs and opinions unlike many other people so many people saw strength in me and a backbone, yet I also took it to a ridiculous level at times where I couldn't stop arguing and could not see that people do not always have to agree on everything or that noone could make anyone UNDERSTAND if you just kept trying to persuade them or by rephrasing things to make them understand. NO these people have their OWN understanding of the world which makes perfectly sense to them, just like mine does to me. And their view is equal to mine (most of the time, if it isn't about hurting other people'es human rights and dignity ya know lol).
My ESE mother told me "Sometimes you just have to stop arguing with people and stop saying anything. You do not always have to agree and that is perfectly fine. Everyone has their opinion after all." Most people won't change their opinion or point of view anyways just because someone tries to explain theirs to them.

My SLE friend once said you cannot really understand people. I noticed that I tried to understand other humans with my head, through a Ni-Ti "logical" loophole. I didn't try to understand people with my "heart", seeing the pain I might have caused them.
I think SLEs take their Ti understanding of things from moment to moment. Just as you stated, the understanding changes with the ever changing environment. They are survivors after all, and to survive and to exist in this world you have to adapt to it every moment, every second. Maybe this could fit the 'fly like a butterfly and sting like a bee' quote. They swiftly move through this world like a butterfly and when they are present in a moment and understand how things work/see an opening right at that very second they push through/ 'sting like a bee' and make an impact.

And just as your environment changes, so do people and their lives and opinions and world views and their understanding of themselves. Probably every day.
Man had I known the things I know today I would have done so many things differently, because I understood which things I could have done better, where I could have understood people better and whatnot. I finally was able to look back at my past and saw what my actions looked like to other people. To just see your own point of view will lead you to a very lonely life. You will have to get along with people for real if you want to be part of this world. To have a Se impact on this world you will have to participate in life, you will only be able to understand by BEING part of this world every second of your life. Try to stay awake. Yes some theoretical principles can be understood for a longer period of time, but even then we will have to consider other view points and that every thesis could eventually be wrong if there is no hard evidence.

(Like for example up to this point the VI photos by Filatova personally hold the most truth to me, because the people she photographed and the people I met and identified as these types actually matched.. this was definitely a step forward for socionics, but that is just my opinion.)

I still sometimes have the annyoing Ti Ha tendency, but I can finally see when it is happening, I am trying to control it and reflect on it. I definitely do not have to agree with everyone or always be considerate of everyone's opinion when they cross my boundaries such as my values or if they REALLY hurt me. The thing is you can just remove yourself from these people peacefully and let them live their lives with their opinions. You do not have to tolerate these opinions by letting these people too close, but it is also not your job to change someone elses view of things. People will only follow your opinion/way of thinking after all if they agree with it naturally or if they want to. You will have to develop a certain tolerance for other people's views though as with the opinions that do not really hurt anyone 'I like blue and you like green'. Otherwise you cannot make it in this world. Just some realisations I had with my own Ti Ha. It's all about finding the right balance. If things just do not work out with people anymore you will have to walk away, but do not forget that you will first have to see BOTH views for real and honestly and then make your decision of what to do. I once only apologised to a friend after three weeks because before I wouldn't have really felt it and it wouldn't have been honest. I had to understand and FEEL my mistake and the shame from it.

LET LIFE HIT YOUR WITH ALL ITS MIGHT. DO NOT AVOID REALITY AND DO NOT FLEE IT. People are fallible beings and so are you. That's what I wanna tell every IEI out there. Fill yourself up with all those real life experiences. Dare to participate in this world, dare to exist. Life doesn't always have to make sense, just take it as it is sometimes.. and enjoy it (a little note to myself lol). Live life wholeheartedly.

Okay that's all I thought of so far.. I think I had more in my head but I kinda already started to digress from the main topic, anyways this kinda clicked and it made so much sense to me. Lots of new thought trails for me to think about. Thank you.

[Exodus]

I actually agree with this. Alpha SF women are everywhere, you can't even escape them. Guys tend to be Beta ST more than any other type, IMO. Alpha SF girl with Beta ST guy is a very common couple to see.

I wouldn't say that they are necessarily more common but they fit the gender roles the most. I agree those couples are pretty common though.



@Muddy in my experience the types that get along better with people, get along better with people.

That is to say that yes, Se ego or mobilizing types tend to clash a lot more (especially with each other), and Fe egos are often able to get along with everybody regardless of type. As for theories about certain relationships being better for rational (/irrational) types, etc. I haven't seen any evidence of that kind of pattern.

[Tearsofaclown]

Sweet Jesus may I thank you for this insightful and inspirational post. It really clicked for me yesterday. Especially the quotes hit a sweet spot, since the boxer reference reminded me of one of my favourite quotes "Fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee" by Muhammad Ali.

As an IEI I can understand the problem with Ti Ha obviously. Most of my life I would see situations, problems just from my perspective and the way I UNDERSTOOD them. Like there is this Ni-Ti loophole, where you start thinking "But I thought like this and that's why I did that and and and..." and you just move in circles, you do NOT move forward. I would only see problems from inwards.. not the way they appeared on the outside, the way they appeared to other people. I would not be able to see the reality of other people when two world views and worlds would "collide".
To view yourself from the outside, the way you appear, the way your actions make sense to other people, to just get a fucking reality check (probably Te POLR?) is so fucking important. To at least CONSIDER your actions not looking the same to other people and that there is another understanding to them.
It felt veeery painful to break through that way of thinking and only extremely intense experiences helped me to realise my mistakes. I basically made this realisation at one of the worst times of my life, which turned out to be the thing I fucking needed. Basically the best thing that could have happened to me, because my life changed so much afterwards. Pain and painful situations are always indicators that there is something that has to be changed, especially if they appear frequently out of similar reasons.

IEIs live in their little holes aka rooms, where they avoid reality and confrontations with their Ti Ha for the longest time (that's the only way to not question your own logic after all and that's why so many IEIs make it through life only ever seeing their own way of thinking, never the other one). I see people handle Ti Ha very differently, I see the avoidant ones and then there are the ones like me where I just am very confrontational and defend my opinion to the bitter end. Man did it get me into many fights throughout my life, combined with that fight picking Se seeking.

My SEE stepfather always said it is one of my greatest strengths and weaknesses at the same time. I would always stand up for my beliefs and opinions unlike many other people so many people saw strength in me and a backbone, yet I also took it to a ridiculous level at times where I couldn't stop arguing and could not see that people do not always have to agree on everything or that noone could make anyone UNDERSTAND if you just kept tryingt to persuade them or by rephrasing things to make them understand. NO these people have their OWN understanding of the world which makes perfectly sense to them, just like mine does to me. And their view is equal to mine (most of the time, if it isn't about hurting other people'es human rights and dignity ya know lol).
My ESE mother told me "Sometimes you just have to stop arguing with people and stop saying anything. You do not always have to agree and that is perfectly fine. Everyone has their opinion after all." Most people won't change their opinion or point of view anyways, just because someone tries to explain theirs to them.

My SLE friend once said you cannot really understand people. I noticed that I tried to understand other humans with my head, through a Ni-Ti "logical" loophole. I didn't try to understand people with my "heart", seeing the pain I might have caused them.
I think SLEs take their Ti understanding of things from moment to moment. Just as you stated, the understanding changes with the ever changing environment. They are survivors after all, and to survive and to exist in this world you have to adapt to it every moment, every second. Maybe this could fit the 'fly like a butterfly and sting like a bee quote'. They swiftly move through this world like a butterfly and when they are present in a moment and understand how things work right/see an opening, at that very second they push through/ 'sting like a bee' and make an impact.

And just as your environment changes, so do people and their lives and opinions and world views and their understanding of themselves. Probably every day.
Man had I known the things I know today I would have done so many things differently, because I understood which things I could have done better, where I could have understood people better and whatnot. I finally was able to look back at my past and saw what my actions looked like to other people. To just see your own point of view will lead you to a very lonely life. You will have to get along with people for real if you want to be part of this world. To have a Se impact on this world you will have to participate in life, you will only be able to understand by BEING part of this world every second of your life. Try to stay awake. Yes some theoretical principles can be understood for a longer period of time, but even then we will have to consider other view points and that every thesis could eventually be wrong if there is no hard evidence.

(Like for example up to this point the VI photos by Filatova personally hold the most truth to me, because the people she photographed and the people I met and identified as these types actually matched.. this was definitely a step forward for socionics, but that is just my opinion.)

I still sometimes have the annyoing Ti Ha tendency, but I can finally see when it is happening, I am trying to control it and reflect on it. I definitely do not have to agree with everyone or always be considerate of everyone's opinion when they cross my boundaries such as my values or if they REALLY hurt me. The thing is you can just remove yourself from these people peacefully and let them live their lives with their opinions. You do not have to tolerate these opinions by letting these people too close, but it is also not your job to change someone elses view of things. People will only follow your opinion/way of thinking after all if they agree with it naturally or if they want to. You will have to develop a certain tolerance for other people's views though as with the opinions that do not really hurt anyone 'I like blue and you like green'. Otherwise you cannot make it in this world. Just some realisations I had with my own Ti Ha. It's all about finding the right balance. If things just do not work out with people anymore you will have to walk away, but do not forget that you will first have to see BOTH views for real and honestly and then make your decision of what to do. I once only apologised to a friend after three weeks because before I wouldn't have really felt it and it wouldn't have been honest. I had to understand and FEEL my mistake and the shame from it.

LET LIFE HIT YOUR WITH ALL ITS MIGHT. DO NOT AVOID REALITY AND DO NOT FLEE IT. People are fallible beings and so are you. That's what I wanna tell every IEI out there. Fill yourself up with all those real life experiences. Dare to participate in this world, dare to exist. Life doesn't always have to make sense, just take it as it is sometimes.. and enjoy it (a little note to myself lol). Live life wholeheartedly.

Okay that's all I thought of so far.. I think I had more in my head but tI kinda already started to digress from the main topic, anyways this kinda clicked and it made so much sense to me. Lots of new thought trails for me to think about. Thank you.

Ok, I got about a hundred responses to this and don't know where to start. Got about a billion applicable quotes. Sun Tzu strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory, but tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat. I am on a fuckin slow route to victory --lol--seems you are to. Another quote I relate to is Abe Lincoln saying if you give him 7 hours to chop down a tree he will spend the first 4 sharpening the axe. Me again. I am a person who spends hours a week learning about exercising but essentially not actually exercising myself. lol. I just cannot find the perfect routine. I cannot get started.

Jung described Te as "constructive or "productive" thought. And it is. Te is like business logic that paves your path through this world. It is like the Bulldozer you get on that drives you to your dreams. Se too. Exactly. Se in comfortable in the uncomfortable. Like Eminem. You know how much shit he must have heard trying to be a white rapper in the ghetto? I would have quit long ago. lol. But he didn't. He insisted on succeeding. And Madonna, how many people move to NY and say they are gonna be stars? She actually did that.

Same reason I love Ali too. And William James. These 2 guys have similar philosophies. James said if you want a quality, act like you already got it. And that is exactly what Ali did. He said he was the greatest before he knew he was; he figured if he said it enough he could make himself and others believe it. A like that becomes the truth.

“To change one’s life:
1. Start immediately.
2. Do it flamboyantly.
3. No exceptions.”


― William James

He also encouraged us to not fear life.

Ali was hilarious. He was actually an underdog in some big fights. Like against Sonny Liston. Big underdog. Many thought the fight was a fix because you can't see the punch Ali landed. But with modern replay and angles you can see it clearly. It is still quick. Anyway, Ali said that he punches X amount of hundredths of a second, that is the time of the human blink. He said the problem was, that when he hit Liston everybody blinked. He swears. lol.


Like Malcolm X who he was friends with. Give them one chance and they will make the best out of it. Before the Foreman fight people said Ali only had a prayer. His response:

"You told everybody I don't have a chance. You told 'em I don't have nothing but a prayer. Chump, all I need is a prayer because if that prayer reaches the right man, not only will George Foreman fall, mountains will fall!"

and George Foreman did fuckin fall.


“Forget about winning and losing; forget about pride and pain. Let your opponent graze your skin and you smash into his flesh; let him smash into your flesh and you fracture his bones; let him fracture your bones and you take his life! Do not be concerned with escaping safely- lay your life before him!!”


― Bruce Lee

Be a fuckin fighter. A boxer. A martial artist. Life is a fight. Malcolm X was a failed boxer. He got his ass kicked by a white boy and went into hiding he was so ashamed. He trained hard and came back and the guy knocked him out even quicker this time. lol. He said in highsight it was a blessing, if he would have been good at boxing he would end up punch drunk and never used his mind.

In the clearing stands a boxer
And a fighter by his trade
And he carries the reminders
Of every glove that laid him down
Or cut him till he cried out
In his anger and his shame
"I am leaving, I am leaving"
But the fighter still remains

-Paul Simon

We all carry those reminders of every glove that laid us down and cut us till we cried in shame. I am leaving, I am leaving, but the fighter still remains. Malcolm's song. He left the ring but the fighter in him remained.




I am a 7 and have experienced quite a bit. CS Lewis said that experience is the strictest teacher but my God do you learn. William James's brother was considered on the greatest writers of his time and said:

If experience consists of impressions, it may be said that impressions are experience, just as (have we not seen it?) they are the very air we breathe. Therefore, if I should certainly say to a novice, "Write from experience, and experience only," I should feel that this was a rather tantalising monition if I were not careful immediately to add, "Try to be one of the people on whom nothing is lost!"

I love that. Try to be somebody on whom nothing is lost. When Steve Jobs would give commencement speeches he would end by telling the students, "Stay hungry. Stay foolish." I do believe staying foolish is important.

[The Reality Denialist]

NF and ST: meaningfulness + practicality (the below is distributed equally by fulfilling gaps in subtle manner)
SF and NT: liveliness + intellect (the above is distributed equally by fulfilling gaps in subtle manner)

I can get triggered by imposed NF and ST interaction styles quite easily. With SFs interaction usually goes smoothly at least superficially.

Regarding Einstein:
albert-einstein-i-never-said-half-the-shit-attributed-to-me-on-the-internet.jpg