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Thread: Discussion on Instinct Ranges or Subtypes (thread split)

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    Default Discussion on Instinct Ranges or Subtypes (thread split)

    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    No, because the priority is still sx.
    How so?

    "often exchanging intimacy in favor of the more immediate pleasures of the physical senses"
    This is literally giving the Self Preservation instinct priority. In fact, that whole description favors Self Preservation. Blocking off energy, containing it, focus on stability 'at the expense of', muted.

    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Instincts have certain "roles" and "applications" that are fixed in accordance to their positioning in the stacking. Even if one instinct is accentuated and expressed to an excess, it's "role" or "function" never changes because its position is fixed (same as in Socionics accentuated creative function never switches to become leading one no matter how strongly it is expressed). This is easier to see if you break down the instinct stackings into two parts, similar to model A. There are: 1) positions in the stacking (similar to functions of Model A), and 2) instincts that fill out those positions (similar to information elements). The combination of the two gives the full stacking. And while there's local accentuation, the position of the instinct in the stacking and the corresponding "role" of that position that the instinct will play for you never change.


    Strongly expressed Sp was the reason I typed as Sp/Sx for several years when I was first introduced to the enneagram. Because most of what I could see of my life was Sp Sp Sp and more Sp. It took a while and some introspection to realize that the Sp part of me was always turned outwards, to the outside, towards the environment, that this was how I dealt with my surroundings. When I looked inside deep within, it turned out it wasn't the primary concern, and in fact it would get overriden and flung aside. There was a pocket of feelings hiding there instead.

    The 'syn' and 'contra'-flows provided an additional clue - I kept attracting So/Sx's to myself as friends, which was described by at least two people on the old Enneagram Institute board, both of whom typed as Sx/Sp. This feedback was later incorporated by David Gray as part of his syn/contra flow theory.

    So putting these clues together it 'clicked' for me at some point that my real stacking was Sx/Sp and that due to heavy accentuation of secondary instinct I have mistaken it for my primary one. I've developed some prejudice against Sx/Sp stacking initially, as someone who hasn't grown out of their highschool angst, so realizing that was my own stacking it was like "Noooooooooo!" LOL

    Nowadays that I've got this cleared up, I see other people make this same mistake all the time: mistaking strong secondary for primary. Especially newcomers to the instinct theory, since this isn't properly explained and expanded in any instinct sources that I've seen.
    I typed mostly at Sx/Sp because of these type of descriptions. They feel like a cop-out to me. It's like saying I would be Sx dom, except it's blocked by Sp. That doesn't work. The very nature of the dominant instinct is neurotic. It's not something one can just block off or 'contain'.
    My typing process is similar to yours actually! I would look at my emotional turmoil, see my tendency to obsess and obsess, see how I'm very attuned to chemistry / attraction, and conclude I was Sx. Easy peasy, except that I don't live my life that way. Apart from the one time it truly mattered (a true soul connection, as it were; we're married now), my life has been characterized by me blocking off the pull towards 'mixing energies', or the Sexual instinct. Why? Because in dealing with the world, my tendency is to focus on what something will take out of me, how much 'resources' (time, energy,..) something will cost. I'm naturally 'blocked off', it's my neutral state. It's my blessing and my curse.
    So when I look at this Sx/Sp description, I see exactly that, unless I'm misinterpreting it. I see Sx being exchanged for Sp, giving Sp a clear preference. I see a tendency to block off, contain, and that above all a feeling of stability is secured, even at the risk of seeming put off by others. Now, Social last is Social last, which means the 'seeming put off by others' part comes with the territory, but again what gets emphasized here is the need towards stability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    I had sp/sx considered for me for a time too. I want to add that another thing that confounds people figuring out their types is the concept where the secondary instinct is supposed to feel more "natural" than the first instinct. While actually the first instinct is just as natural, just the drive for the second instinct is a bit more relaxed (or so I'm interpreting it).

    sp vs sx is tough I think because sx is actually quite abstract when you really think about it (considering it's not necessarily about sex itself). Unless you're having sex all day and night, it's hard to tell yourself you're finding evidence for how it manifests. You can essentially mostly either do it through people (which seems so), through the environment (which seems sp) or through some spiritual feelings I guess (which are invisible).
    I don't believe that the Sexual instinct is that elusive. The chemistry and magnetism between people seems fairly obvious to me. And I definitely interpret these as being sexual in nature; even if the there is no physical "consummation." The energy exchange that draws one in deeper and that you can't look away from can definitely be consumed and, when looking at myself and others, is nothing close to being vague or abstract in experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    I don't believe that the Sexual instinct is that elusive. The chemistry and magnetism between people seems fairly obvious to me. And I definitely interpret these as being sexual in nature; even if the there is no physical "consummation." The energy exchange that draws one in deeper and that you can't look away from can definitely be consumed and, when looking at myself and others, is nothing close to being vague or abstract in experience.
    Sorry, I'm a sensor. To me if something's obvious, it can be held in my hand or seen with the naked eye. You can't see or measure this kind of "energy". Play again.

    @Samson I sort of know what you're talking about and I've actually wondered for a long time if that was possibly sx related. I don't know if you're talking about the exact same thing that I'm noticing because it's kind of subjective, but you could be onto something here. The problem is now that you'd need to figure out something corresponding in the environment for sp and so instincts.
    Last edited by niffer; 03-24-2017 at 02:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Sorry, I'm a sensor. To me if something's obvious, it can be held in my hand or seen with the naked eye. You can't see or measure this kind of "energy". Play again.

    @Samson I sort of know what you're talking about and I've actually wondered for a long time if that was possibly sx related. I don't know if you're talking about the exact same thing that I'm noticing because it's kind of subjective, but you could be onto something here. The problem is now that you'd need to figure out something corresponding in the environment for sp and so instincts.
    What I'm referring to is part 'energy', sure, everything is energy. But more than that, so much more than that, is the experience of attraction and magnetism. Being an Intuitive or a Sensor is irrelevant to that.
    The Sexual instinct is constantly looking to merge itself with another, to do away with (inter)personal boundaries, or boundaries of any kind really.. No retention of the self / focus on maintaining boundaries, as that would be Self Pres. Also no focus on relating / bonding / mutual and shared whatever, as that would be Social.

    So what I'm talking about is the experience and the emotional mindset of the Sexual lead person. Sensor or not, my SLE Sx 7w8 father-in-law knew exactly what I was referring to when bringing up the subject of the Sexual instinct the way I did in this thread. He then started talking about all the way he 'hooks' people in, intellectually, emotionally, and physically. It was no mystery to him.
    Last edited by Samson; 03-25-2017 at 07:33 PM.

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    I'm a sensor too, and my Sx is dead obvious.
    I'd advise not looking at my tumblr unless you are over 18 and won't fall apart too easily, but here it is. http://erosianexile.tumblr.com/

    Nothing subtle here.
    And in fact, I can measure energy.
    Last edited by Volcana; 03-26-2017 at 01:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    I'm a sensor too, and my Sx is dead obvious.
    I'd advise not looking at my tumblr unless you are over 18 and won't fall apart too easily, but here it is.
    http://erosianexile.tumblr.com/

    Nothing subtle here.
    And in fact, I can measure energy.
    I just want to know... why do sx's always like those images. It's all fire and ice and shiiiiiit.

    On a side note... intimacy can be horrifying for sx-lasts'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    I just want to know... why do sx's always like those images. It's all fire and ice and shiiiiiit.

    On a side note... intimacy can be horrifying for sx-lasts'...
    Not all Sx doms are into fire and ice specifically, but I would feel comfortable saying that Sx doms are all most likely to post pictures that turn them on or that display some kind of 'spillover' of energy from one party to the other, since that is how they experience their life. Transmitting energy, creating and destroying themselves and the other, hooked into the polarity between them and losing themselves and transforming along with the other. It's all about dissolving boundaries. So the images should have spillover , specifically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    Not all Sx doms are into fire and ice specifically, but I would feel comfortable saying that Sx doms are all most likely to post pictures that turn them on or that display some kind of 'spillover' of energy from one party to the other, since that is how they experience their life. Transmitting energy, creating and destroying themselves and the other, hooked into the polarity between them and losing themselves and transforming along with the other. It's all about dissolving boundaries. So the images should have spillover , specifically.
    Yeah, that makes sense. Even like in a physics/chemistry kind of way... hmm...

    As for me personally, I don't want to change, and I don't want the other person to change...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    I just want to know... why do sx's always like those images. It's all fire and ice and shiiiiiit.
    It's mirroring us, the inner push and pull.
    @Anima I like the images a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    I don't believe that the Sexual instinct is that elusive. The chemistry and magnetism between people seems fairly obvious to me. And I definitely interpret these as being sexual in nature; even if the there is no physical "consummation." The energy exchange that draws one in deeper and that you can't look away from can definitely be consumed and, when looking at myself and others, is nothing close to being vague or abstract in experience.
    ...That's vague and abstract in the most basic senses of the words. Intuition just has direct perception of things that are vague and abstract (and is often defined that way).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    ...That's vague and abstract in the most basic senses of the words. Intuition just has direct perception of things that are vague and abstract (and is often defined that way).
    But I am a sensor and it's not abstract to me, if you look at my tumblr. Sx is not any more abstract than any other instinct. The way he explains it may sound abstract to some sensors, sure. But that doesn't make the instinct itself abstract.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    But I am a sensor and it's not abstract to me, if you look at my tumblr. Sx is not any more abstract than any other instinct. The way he explains it may sound abstract to some sensors, sure. But that doesn't make the instinct itself abstract.
    I did mean the description was abstract, yes. I would also agree with you that the instinct itself isn't particularly abstract.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    What I'm referring to is part 'energy', sure, everything is energy. But more than that, so much more than that, is the experience of attraction and magnetism. Being an Intuitive or a Sensor is irrelevant to that.
    The Sexual instinct is constantly looking to merge itself with another, to do away with (inter)personal boundaries, or boundaries of any kind really.. No retention of the self / focus on maintaining boundaries, as that would be Self Pres. Also no focus on relating / bonding / mutual and shared whatever, as that would be Social.

    So what I'm talking about is the experience and the emotional mindset of the Sexual lead person. Sensor or not, my SLE Sx 7w8 father-in-law knew exactly what I was referring to when bringing up the subject of the Sexual instinct the way I did in this thread. He then started talking about all the way he 'hooks' people in, intellectually, emotionally, and physically. It was no mystery to him.
    What if it's just hindsight bias.

    Experience is subjective, which was one of my main points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    And in fact, I can measure energy.
    How?

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post


    How?
    Here are a few concrete options for reading energy in general:

    - How they move
    - How they walk
    - What type of images, collages or art they put on tumblr or other sites
    - What topics they bring up automatically
    - How they use their eyes
    - The vocal patterns in their speech, how they present speech (this is easy to recognize as it applies to Cognitive functions, but also enneagram)
    - The things they react to over and over in a similar style



    ...basically, it's no different than spotting the difference between sensor and intuitive, which you are clearly adept at. You just have to learn what the instincts actually mean so that you can apply the same logic to instincts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    What if it's just hindsight bias.

    Experience is subjective, which was one of my main points.
    You are running in circles with me. This was your point, the one I reacted to:

    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    sp vs sx is tough I think because sx is actually quite abstract when you really think about it (considering it's not necessarily about sex itself). Unless you're having sex all day and night, it's hard to tell yourself you're finding evidence for how it manifests. You can essentially mostly either do it through people (which seems so), through the environment (which seems sp) or through some spiritual feelings I guess (which are invisible).
    Claiming that Sx is any more or less "abstract" than the other instincts is bullshit, and that was my point.

    "What if all the talk about So and Sp was just hindsight bias?"

    Lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    ...That's vague and abstract in the most basic senses of the words. Intuition just has direct perception of things that are vague and abstract (and is often defined that way).
    My description may be, but not the experience of the instinct itself. I don't care whether my words are abstract or not, it's besides the point I'm making.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    It's mirroring us, the inner push and pull.
    @Anima I like the images a lot.
    Thank you
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    You are running in circles with me. This was your point, the one I reacted to:



    Claiming that Sx is any more or less "abstract" than the other instincts is bullshit, and that was my point.

    "What if all the talk about So and Sp was just hindsight bias?"

    Lol.
    No, I'm not running in circles at all. It's a valid point that you should address, but you telling me I'm running in circles is a good way to distract from the issue and avoid answering, and then simply calling it bullshit and making fun of it with no counter-argument. None of these behaviours makes your position look more valid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    Here are a few concrete options for reading energy in general:

    - How they move
    - How they walk
    - What type of images, collages or art they put on tumblr or other sites
    - What topics they bring up automatically
    - How they use their eyes
    - The vocal patterns in their speech, how they present speech (this is easy to recognize as it applies to Cognitive functions, but also enneagram)
    - The things they react to over and over in a similar style



    ...basically, it's no different than spotting the difference between sensor and intuitive, which you are clearly adept at. You just have to learn what the instincts actually mean so that you can apply the same logic to instincts.
    I (quoting you) said measure, not read. Sure you can treat the things that you listed as empirical on some level, but if you want to say that you can measure something it needs to be something that can be recorded using some tools or methods, with some kind of scale. It's this that makes the difference between something that is concrete and measurable, and something that is abstract vague bs.

    So I agree with you that those things you listed can be empirical and objective yeah. But don't say "measure" as if you're putting it on the level of some exact science, otherwise from now on I'm going to assume you mean you measure with your hippie energy stone pendulum.

    And btw I believe in and use astrology and I'm obviously on a website that deals with esoteric ideas so it's not like I'm just discrediting anything that isn't easy to prove, but that doesn't mean it does any good to the integrity of these topics to just completely eschew objective analysis and act as if people can say or believe and preach any ideas they want based on 'the energy they feel'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    I (quoting you) said measure, not read. Sure you can treat the things that you listed as empirical on some level, but if you want to say that you can measure something it needs to be something that can be recorded using some tools or methods, with some kind of scale. It's this that makes the difference between something that is concrete and measurable, and something that is abstract vague bs.

    So I agree with you that those things you listed can be empirical and objective yeah. But don't say "measure" as if you're putting it on the level of some exact science, otherwise from now on I'm going to assume you mean you measure with your hippie energy stone pendulum.

    And btw I believe in and use astrology and I'm obviously on a website that deals with esoteric ideas so it's not like I'm just discrediting anything that isn't easy to prove, but that doesn't mean it does any good to the integrity of these topics to just completely eschew objective analysis and act as if people can say or believe and preach any ideas they want based on 'the energy they feel'...
    So, how can you tell someone is intuitive, then? And how can you tell someone is a sensor? What empirical methods did you use to make those distinctions?

    And why do you think people say and believe and preach based on 'the energy they feel?' Several concrete definitions and some examples were given. The fact that evidence such as visual art and qualities listed doesn't line up with your personal interpretation at the moment doesn't make it baseless, but attacking someone's way of speaking does make your argument baseless, if your argument is about instincts.

    You don't like the points, so you attack the way they are presented. That's not very convincing.

    If you don't like the argument, that is reasonable, and it's your choice. But you are trying to discredit the person and the way they present evidence, when everyone does this differently. Nobody else speaks exactly the way you do and makes points exactly in a way so that you personally will believe them. People think for themselves and deliver information the way they are able. So it's fine to learn from who you can and discard those you can't learn from. But it's telling that you choose to argue that their way of speaking is inferior to yours, when you have not questioned us on the points we made, asked for clarification on the topic at hand, or offered a counter-argument about instincts. Instead, you simply overlooked those points that were posted and listed the abstract systems you personally believe in. That's fine if you want to express yourself, but it's not contributing anything to a productive discussion about instincts.
    Last edited by Volcana; 03-26-2017 at 01:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    No, I'm not running in circles at all. It's a valid point that you should address, but you telling me I'm running in circles is a good way to distract from the issue and avoid answering, and then simply calling it bullshit and making fun of it with no counter-argument. None of these behaviours makes your position look more valid.
    It's not a valid point at all. The experience of an instinct is not vague or abstract. It is impossible. The clue is in the naming of it; "instinct."
    Instinct induces emotion, emotion is completely linked to physical chemistry and reactions. You can't miss it when it happens.

    You're talking about the Sexual instinct as if it's so different from Social and Self Preservation that "Unless you're having sex all day and night, it's hard to tell yourself you're finding evidence for how it manifests" (your words).

    There is clear sex in being magnetized by someone's energy. Nothing confusing about that experience.

    Neither the Social nor the Self Preservation instinct are any more or less abstract.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    So, how can you tell someone is intuitive, then? And how can you tell someone is a sensor? What empirical methods did you use to make those distinctions?

    And why do you think people say and believe and preach based on 'the energy they feel?' Several concrete definitions and some examples were given. The fact that evidence such as visual art and qualities listed doesn't line up with your personal interpretation at the moment doesn't make it baseless, it makes you unwilling to consider the points made, which also makes you pointless to discuss this with.

    You don't like the angle, fine. Leave it at that. But you are trying to discredit the person and the way they present evidence. Everyone does this differently. Learn from who you can and discard those you can't learn from. But don't tell other people their way of speaking is inferior to yours, when you have not made any strong points about what Sx is, offered examples, or discussed the essence of the instinct, aside from vague one-size-fits-all "instinct ranges" you reposted... which do nothing to get to the essence of any instinct.
    No, I did not say that it was baseless. I even said I agreed with your ideas for objective empirical evidence. I simply said it was not measurable in the strict definition of the concept. This was the only statement of yours that I originally quoted and asked for clarification on.

    I can tell if someone's an intuitive or a sensor based on ideas similar to the empirical things you listed.

    "And why do you think people say and believe and preach based on 'the energy they feel?' Several concrete definitions and some examples were given." And maybe you gave some, but @Samson did not.

    I get the concept of sx but what if a person didn't have a tumblr or didn't have other outlets to express their sx energy in artistic or physical ways? That was what my original post about this was about. You can feel energies to some degree but they are incredibly hard to define in some objective sense, which is why I see sx as inherently more abstract (from an outside expression pov) rather than concrete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    It's not a valid point. The experience of an instinct is not vague or abstract. It is impossible. The clue is in the naming of it; "instinct."

    You're talking about the Sexual instinct as if it's so different from Social and Self Preservation that "Unless you're having sex all day and night, it's hard to tell yourself you're finding evidence for how it manifests" (your words).

    There is clear sex in being magnetized by someone's energy. Nothing confusing about that experience.

    Neither the Social nor the Self Preservation instinct are any more or less abstract.
    I think you are misunderstanding me. By abstract I don't mean "this doesn't exist". I mean that it has potential to be difficult to see concretely. If you can attest to the experience of it then nobody can argue with you, but that doesn't make it any easier to see or define or more objective and concrete for the rest of us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    But it's telling that you choose to argue that their way of speaking is inferior to yours, when you have not questioned us on the points we made, asked for clarification on the topic at hand, or offered a counter-argument about instincts. Instead, you simply overlooked those points that were posted and listed the abstract systems you personally believe in. That's fine if you want to express yourself, but it's not contributing anything to a productive discussion about instincts.
    LOL. Please quote or give evidence of me doing any, even one of these things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    No, I did not say that it was baseless. I even said I agreed with your ideas for objective empirical evidence. I simply said it was not measurable in the strict definition of the concept. This was the only statement of yours that I originally quoted and asked for clarification on.

    I can tell if someone's an intuitive or a sensor based on ideas similar to the empirical things you listed.

    "And why do you think people say and believe and preach based on 'the energy they feel?' Several concrete definitions and some examples were given." And maybe you gave some, but @Samson did not.

    I get the concept of sx but what if a person didn't have a tumblr or didn't have other outlets to express their sx energy in artistic or physical ways? That was what my original post about this was about. You can feel energies to some degree but they are incredibly hard to define in some objective sense, which is why I see sx as inherently more abstract (from an outside expression pov) rather than concrete.
    Ok, I get you now. That makes sense.
    I understand the need for something more concrete. I have spent years learning about this from all different angles, lining it up with real people; I even have my own forum where people of different stacks post collages and the look of some of them being similar is impossible to deny. Even for people new to enneagram, they can tell immediately which collages "go together in a folder." And it's pretty easy to grasp WHY something is Sx and something else is Soc.. and so on. But, you haven't had that experience, so I don't blame you for being skeptical. If I had not experienced this myself, seen it play out in real people, gotten contributions from people whose types I was sure of, etc, I would also have been skeptical, perhaps. Or at least, I would be looking for a concrete trend so that I myself could understand it. It took time.

    I can't link other people's collages because it's personal and a private group, and it would take me eons to explain everything I've learned over several years, but when I have a little bit of time I'll try to formulate a longer post about my own impressions and experiences, which of course are always up for questioning and debate.

    My only nitpick with this post is that to my eye, @Samson made clear points. And I'm a sensor. And I know an SLE who has no problem with this either, and loves his posts in general, feels they speak to him. So it's not about being a sensor; it may be about having different sets of experience here, and the type of explanations you're looking for are beyond what is being presented. But it's nt about being a sensor because sensors who have experience in psychology, enneagram , instincts, certain trends of thought; can still make sense out of these type of sentiments.
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    I'll put it this way so it's easier to see my point: happiness.

    Happiness is observable, clearly. But it's observable subjectively only, and it is an abstract concept that cannot be measured.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    My only nitpick with this post is that to my eye, @Samson made clear points. And I'm a sensor. And I know an SLE who has no problem with this either, and loves his posts in general, feels they speak to him. So it's not about being a sensor; it may be about having different sets of experience here, and the type of explanations you're looking for are beyond what is being presented. But it's nt about being a sensor because sensors who have experience in psychology, enneagram , instincts, certain trends of thought; can still make sense out of these type of sentiments.
    Oh, so you two are friends I see. Now *that* makes sense...

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    I'll put it this way so it's easier to see my point: happiness.

    Happiness is observable, clearly. But it's observable subjectively only, and it is an abstract concept that cannot be measured.
    I can see concrete differences in people's behavior and body language and all the things I listed, like you said, that is how you understand Cognitive types. But to me - Sx energy is more obvious than "happiness" and the list of qualities and traits that go along with it serve as further empirical evidence of what I instinctively respond to.

    If you have learned to tell Ni from Ne, Si from Se, etc, you can also learn to recognize instincts and then "energy" does not feel so abstract.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Oh, so you two are friends I see. Now *that* makes sense...
    I marked this post as 'constructive' out of irony.


    And if you must know, yes. He is the irresistible beauty bathing in my blood in my avatar.


    Here's a concrete example of the "energy mixing" and "spilling over" of Sx. Not even marriage can put a handle on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    I marked this post as 'constructive' out of irony.


    And if you must know, yes. He is the irresistible beauty bathing in my blood in my avatar.


    There's a concrete example of the "energy mixing" and "spilling over" of Sx.
    Ironic indeed since the marker has 11 posts as of now and advertised her alternative forum on this website while providing no information here from it. And then inserted an enormous space-taking image which I had to edit out of my quote (good job though for editing it to make it smaller lol).

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    I think you are misunderstanding me. By abstract I don't mean "this doesn't exist". I mean that it has potential to be difficult to see concretely. If you can attest to the experience of it then nobody can argue with you, but that doesn't make it any easier to see or define or more objective and concrete for the rest of us.
    I know that. And the same applies for both the Social instinct and the Self Preservation instinct, so making this point at all is.. pointless.
    I still disagree that this instinct manifests in such abstract manners that it becomes harder to tell. You can look into the most abstract ideas around the instinct, or you can talk to people and see what brings them to their knees, but there is nothing about it that should confuse anyone about the nature and the manifestations of the instinct. It is not easily confused for Social, it is not easily confused for Self Pres.

    You say the venues through which Sx gets expressed might confuse people, but here's the thing; if these confuse people so much, if they 'color' the expression of Sx so much - to the point where it easily gets confused for another instinct, then Sexual is not the leading instinct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    I can see concrete differences in people's behavior and body language and all the things I listed, like you said, that is how you understand Cognitive types. But to me - Sx energy is more obvious than "happiness" and the list of qualities and traits that go along with it serve as further empirical evidence of what I instinctively respond to.

    If you have learned to tell Ni from Ne, Si from Se, etc, you can also learn to recognize instincts and then "energy" does not feel so abstract.
    Fine, this is encouraging but then please post more on this forum and continue helping instead of waving "omg I see so much" in ppls faces and shutting down critique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    I'll put it this way so it's easier to see my point: happiness.

    Happiness is observable, clearly. But it's observable subjectively only, and it is an abstract concept that cannot be measured.
    Oh come on.

    http://worlddatabaseofhappiness.eur...._measures3.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    I know that. And the same applies for both the Social instinct and the Self Preservation instinct, so making this point at all is.. pointless.
    No it's not, and you even contradicted yourself by making the statement you did below (the bolded)
    I still disagree that this instinct manifests in such abstract manners that it becomes harder to tell. You can look into the most abstract ideas around the instinct, or you can talk to people and see what brings them to their knees, but there is nothing about it that should confuse anyone about the nature and the manifestations of the instinct. It is not easily confused for Social, it is not easily confused for Self Pres.

    You say the venues through which Sx gets expressed might confuse people, but here's the thing; if these confuse people so much, if they 'color' the expression of Sx so much - to the point where it easily gets confused for another instinct, then Sexual is not the leading instinct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Ironic indeed since the marker has 11 posts as of now and advertised her alternative forum on this website while providing no information here from it. And then inserted an enormous space-taking image which I had to edit out of my quote.
    Again, you are criticizing the person's posting habits and forum history instead of addressing the concepts. I just joined, I said I would provide more when I have time. Hold your panties, lol. And don't make the conversation about my personal business unless you want to see more Sx pictures.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    No it's not, and you even contradicted yourself by making the statement you did below (the bolded)
    I did not contradict myself. And you haven't clarified your "No it's not."

    Let me highlight a different part of my post that you quoted:

    "I still disagree that this instinct manifests in such abstract manners that it becomes harder to tell."

    .. or in other words, if your explanation or idea of Sx is easily confused for So or Sp, then it is wrong.

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    Lol, you guys are just clowning around... why not make some of your own threads. I mean instinctual stuff has been a point of controversy and disagreement and misinformation in the typological community and this forum for a long time. You can't blame me for wanting something more concrete and definitive out of it. Especially something like you guys seeing patterns with a system to it sounds really good.

    And in starting this thread I just wanted to fish for information because I have the above beliefs (I'm not certain of stacking ideas myself).

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Fine, this is encouraging but then please post more on this forum and continue helping instead of waving "omg I see so much" in ppls faces and shutting down critique.
    Keep commenting on my way of speaking, how I'm supposed to post, and when I should post it. I have asked you several times to critique the concept and I offered an explanation of my personal experience, in an attempt to communicate kindly and let you know where I was coming from. I can't do everything at once, and no matter how I try to communicate with you, you continue to criticize HOW I'm doing it. You still haven't talked about your own take on the concepts or offered feedback on the concepts; you continue pointing out my posting habits, misinterpreting me "waving" something when I was trying to express how I learned it (since you had brought up that it's not concrete).. why?? If you want to critique the concepts by all means do it, but your critiques of my character are unfounded, as it was my intent to respond to your inquiry about how a sensor (or me in specific) had learned this particular thing. You are choosing to interpret abstract negative intent between the lines of my posts - intent that doesn't exist.

    This is my last post to you - have the last word. I will post if someone wants to comment on the topic itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Lol, you guys are just clowning around... why not make some of your own threads. I mean instinctual stuff has been a point of controversy and disagreement and misinformation in the typological community and this forum for a long time. You can't blame me for wanting something more concrete and definitive out of it. Especially something like you guys seeing patterns with a system to it sounds really good.

    And in starting this thread I just wanted to fish for information because I have the above beliefs (I'm not certain of stacking ideas myself).
    Right. We're clowning around now.

    You say you wanted to fish for information. I gave you information. I argued that the ""Wanderer" Sx/Sp (strong sp)" description is one of the Sp/Sx stacking, not the Sx/Sp. But did you bother with that at all?
    Nope.

    We're not the ones "clowning around" here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    I did not contradict myself. And you haven't clarified your "No it's not."

    Let me highlight a different part of my post that you quoted:

    "I still disagree that this instinct manifests in such abstract manners that it becomes harder to tell."

    .. or in other words, if your explanation or idea of Sx is easily confused for So or Sp, then it is wrong.
    If only you didn't have Te polr you'd be able to see why all of this and this wording is so problematic.

    If you really can't see how it's not pointless to address the issue of hindsight bias then I can't save you.

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