Supervision Feuds

[Chae]

... or just some harmless teasing.

Post your own stories or popular examples of Supervision clashes of all kind.

Here's LII/IEE going at it.

For personal stories, search no more! Just observe whenever I get into @thehotelambush's zone

[Bertrand]

I don't understand Zizek's later point; it seems possible Chomsky could both find Lacanian speculation on Psy useless and not have commented in support of Psy's anti-Americanism for any number of reasons. The two don't seem mutually exclusive--maybe Chomsky was just busy with other stuff at the time. That said, I find Zizek way more entertaining whereas I feel like Chomsky has a reputation for contributing in a more meaningful way, but nothing Chomsky has ever said has resonated with me; yet I have several books by Zizek (I'd never spend money on Chomsky). I don't take them super seriously but they're very entertaining and interesting--I feel like they're little disconnected nuggets of sophisticated and insightful entertainment, whereas Chomsky isn't saying anything we don't already know.

maybe he's just making an empty joke and I'm too autistic to get it at first blush?

[Attis]

I've had many clashes with people I type as EIE throughout my life. One example is a science teacher I had in high school. She would always make an effort to create a passionate, intense, and competitive emotional atmosphere in the class, and would get annoyed when I never reciprocated emotional expression and kept to myself. I never interacted with classmates in school and was very robotic. One day I told her that I would be leaving early and she went off on me in front of the class, telling me that I'm a punk, the reason I'm not coming to school is because I don't like my classmates, and that I need to stop being so self-absorbed and make an effort to fit into the group even though I don't like my classmates. I tried to calmly explain to her that my reasons for not coming to school and not interacting with classmates isn't that I don't like them or that I'm trying to be a punk, but she was unwavering. Her class was always a miserable experience for me. My conflicts with EIE are part of why I consider SLI as a possible type.

[Stellafera]

LIE Father: "Sheesh Stellafera I don't understand why you're having so much trouble with this. You're overcomplicating everything. I'm trying to give you directions and they're not that hard"

Me (interprets this as an attack on my competence): "I'M TRYING MY BEST OKAY JUST BECAUSE IT'S OBVIOUS TO YOU BLAH BLAH BLAH I HAVE TO UNDERSTAND WHY IT WORKS "

LIE Father: "Woah, chill."

To be honest in most of those situations I really could stand to take it less personally, it's just... hard not to.

We get along great when we're just riding along in the car together and swapping music and explaining how we interpret the meaning to each other, though. Had a lot of fun when the family moved and we went through his entire car playlist.

[Syynth]

SLE - "How are you still working on *insert any physical task*? I could have done that 10 times by now."

Me - ".....I like working at my own pace."



IEE - *Says something*

Me - wtf...

[niffer]

ESI grandma - *chatting with her friend at nursing home*

Me - ..... *stands in doorway zoned out*

ESI grandma - *to friend:* "Ok bye!"

Me - *starts turning to leave with her*

ESI grandma - *nudges me* "Acknowledge/say bye to her!! >_>"

Me - *broken out of trance* "BYE!"

ESI grandma - *stares at me like i'm mental* .......

[Exodus]

... or just some harmless teasing.

Post your own stories or popular examples of Supervision clashes of all kind.

Here's LII/IEE going at it.

For personal stories, search no more! Just observe whenever I get into @thehotelambush's zone

Your example is extremely ironic. Zizek is most likely EIE. Definitely not IEE.

Also your pic is a meme playing off on the story, here is the real one:

http://www.openculture.com/2013/07/s...m-chomsky.html

[Bertrand]

I dunno, after reading that it seems to me Chomsky is doing the typical Ti literalism thing and Zizek is coming at it from Ti PoLR--in that he doesn't even try to understand the ontological basis of Chomsky's argument in such a way that he needs to engage with it directly, rather he flat out states he categorically rejects that entire way of thinking about the issue and goes on to make some Ne Te/Fi comments on some tangentially related issues, which illustrate his own way of thinking about it. it feels like Ti PoLR because I don't think Zizek is trying to capture some imaginary moral high ground and on that basis stay above going into the details; in fact, Zizek's whole thing is discoursing on anything and everything (i.e.: he loves going into the details--when he can) and not forcefully (Se) shutting people down the way a preacher or demagogue (EIE) would; it just seems like in talking about it he wants to talk about it in his way which is very much opposed to Chomsky's own framework. They can't each get their way so this conflict comes down to a kind of ontological roadblock the same kind you see in SLI v IEI debates, but there doesn't really seem to be the harsh moralizations you'd expect from beta (and if there were, it would come from Chomsky's side) Zizek will point out contradictions in a playful way, but its hard to imagine him burning anyone at the stake (in the way I could envision a Se PoLR over reacting, or in the way beta tends to go about things)... Zizek actually seems way more moderate in every way that matters. Its hard to imagine him being anything other than a loveable entertainer/scholar. EIEs always seem to be wanting to move things in a direction of their choosing by crafting a moral landscape and imposing it on everyone around them. Zizek seems very much content to poke fun, and he wouldn't have nearly as much fun if things weren't as they are. He exudes a kind of exuberant yet passive acceptance of the world, but gets his enjoyment out of it by seeing it for what it is. EIE's kill themselves by refusing to do exactly that

[LuckyOne]

I've had many clashes with people I type as EIE throughout my life. One example is a science teacher I had in high school. She would always make an effort to create a passionate, intense, and competitive emotional atmosphere in the class, and would get annoyed when I never reciprocated emotional expression and kept to myself. I never interacted with classmates in school and was very robotic. One day I told her that I would be leaving early and she went off on me in front of the class, telling me that I'm a punk, the reason I'm not coming to school is because I don't like my classmates, and that I need to stop being so self-absorbed and make an effort to fit into the group even though I don't like my classmates. I tried to calmly explain to her that my reasons for not coming to school and not interacting with classmates isn't that I don't like them or that I'm trying to be a punk, but she was unwavering. Her class was always a miserable experience for me. My conflicts with EIE are part of why I consider SLI as a possible type.

Good lord she sounds very pushy and intrusive but yeah, lack of is disturbing for EIEs It's my only real problem with ILIs too, though I'd never respond to it the way she did. I just live them alone.

Interestingly enough, I doubted being EIE because I get along super well with SLIs. But then again I have zero experience with SLIs that don't have Enneagram compatibility with me, so that perception could very easily change.

Personally I find my Extinguishment type to be more baffling, I have to ignore everything in them that doesn't make sense (to me) for us to get along, it's so tiring

[Rebelondeck]

LII (supervisor irl): Where's the report for your survey?
SLE: You should see Bob's new car.
LII: Where's the report for your survey?
SLE: Chuck doesn't like your reorganization?
LII: Where's the report for your survey?
SLE: You ever think about not wearing a tie? You look too formal.
LII: Where's the report for your survey?
SLE: The client doesn't need a formal report.
LII: Where's the report for your survey?
SLE: If you don't stop hassling me, I'm talking to the union.

a.k.a. I/O

[Exodus]

@Bertrand Zizek categorically states that he rejects Chomsky's empiricism (Te), for him everything is about (conflict of) ideology (Ti).

Also, this type of complexification of concepts is very typical of Ni ego types, especially Beta NF. Chomsky argues that this is done as a way of making them look more impressive, which also points to Fe ego. (Personally I think Zizek is not the worst offender in this regard, he is pretty clear compared to most critical theorists but he does do it to some extent.)

[LuckyOne]

@Bertrand Zizek categorically states that he rejects Chomsky's empiricism (Te), for him everything is about (conflict of) ideology (Ti).

Also, this type of complexification of concepts is very typical of Ni ego types, especially Beta NF. Chomsky argues that this is done as a way of making them look more impressive, which also points to Fe ego. (Personally I think Zizek is not the worst offender in this regard, he is pretty clear compared to most critical theorists but he does do it to some extent.)

He would, he can't see no other reason for anyone to do that, since it's not efficient. He's absolutely right of course, what he doesn't know it's that Egos can't help it. We over complicate things, it's what we do, a hat is never just a hat

That being said vs always makes for the best combats

[Chae]

Your example is extremely ironic. Zizek is most likely EIE. Definitely not IEE.

Also your pic is a meme playing off on the story, here is the real one:

http://www.openculture.com/2013/07/s...m-chomsky.html

See! Seeee! That's what I'm talking about! He did it again!

[niffer]

LII/IEE getting caught up over LII/IEE feud. It's supervisionception.

[Chae]

LII/IEE getting caught up over LII/IEE feud. It's supervisionception.

That's why it's so interesting. A live stream of actual examples right before our eyes.

[Bertrand]

what's disappointing is its clear no one has any real concept of what the people involved stand for. Calling Chomsky empiricist (as if that means Te--he is empiricist in the same sense academic psychology is empiricist i.e.: it rejects Jung, which is too Te for the academy... "empiricism" in a completely Ti sense) is ridiculous as is saying Zizek has a Ti understanding of the world. Zizeks entire point is that people can't not be ideological in their thinking, but that foundation is entirely a Te observation. He tries to root out and expose those Ti ideologies wherever he can. Yes that means he at times has to use Ti modes of understanding but Zizek is Te the core. Chomsky's entire philosophy is constructing a Ti system based on certain logical maxims, not Te ones. The criticism in philosophy between continental (zizek) and analytic (chomsky) always comes down to using language within a consistent framework (Ti)-- "trying to sound smarter than one is" is a Ti criticism of Te types using language that hasn't been clearly defined and grounded in the Ti system. I thought for a second we might be able to have a real conversation about this, but its become clear no one has sufficient background to comment intelligently on the matter

Zizek more than most is trying in everything he does to unwind and expose "ideology" for what it is where he sees it (and "ideology" is fundamentally a Fe/Ti way of understanding complex issues). He does so in an ironic manner because he's aware of his approach as being itself fundamentally tinged by ideology. He does that though (self effacement) to not be completely hypocritical (Fi)... not because he's somehow convinced of the superiority and merit of ideology (as if he were Ti) as such. The difference between Zizek and say Putin is clear as day. Chomsky is almost the complete opposite. Inevitably finds himself supporting totalitarian ideologies on the basis of how he thinks without a shred of self awareness (Ti leading him down dark corners). He pays superficial lip service to democracy and "empiricism" because those are precisely his weakest points, in the same way Zizek calls himself a Stalinist. The difference is Zizek is doing so ironically and Chomsky is oblivious and in being oblivious is unaware of how ironic he really is. Zizek is actually the most consistent and least "ironic" which is what frustrates analytic philosophers because they can't wrap their heads around that dynamic, because its Fi (not Ti). Zizek is in a lot of ways just like Kierkegaard (the zanier post modern version IEE v EII, etc)... Where he doesn't want to be understood in the way Chomsky would like him to make himself understood (Ti) because that's precisely the problem (Fi)--so he uses a bunch of Ne to make his points and comments on everything in his characteristic (FiTe but not Ti) way

[mclane]

This video proves what is Slavoj Zizek's PoLR

[Bertrand]

This video proves what is Slavoj Zizek's PoLR

I love it

thank you

[The Reality Denialist]

EII: Try some empathy.
Me: ??? Everyone is OK and happy.

LSI: It always goes like this. This how things are so I enforce.
Me: You need to look at it from this angle.
LSI: uhh...

[The Reality Denialist]

LII/IEE getting caught up over LII/IEE feud. It's supervisionception.

It actually went pretty far until LII chimed in.

[The Reality Denialist]

That's why it's so interesting. A live stream of actual examples right before our eyes.

LSIs are welcome to discuss with me. Nah, I actually hope that I never go too far. It is not cool to supervise... all the time. Currently I'm temporarily in a situation where my flat mate is LSI. He is actually very chill compare to extreme ones although he screams at people over the Internet. Still I tend to put him in very awkward situations. This time it manifests lack of openness towards some subjects.

[Bertrand]

bertrand and niffer are a good example of two people in such a relationship who like to quarrel

I think the Se v Se makes it special in the same way Chomsky v Zizek battle with Ne

[Eliza Thomason]

SLE - "How are you still working on *insert any physical task*? I could have done that 10 times by now."

Me - ".....I like working at my own pace."



IEE - *Says something*

Me - wtf...

I don't know anything about you, Syynth, but I just wanted to say your reactions in both of these interactions sound more ILI than LII.

[Syynth]

I don't know anything about you, Syynth, but I just wanted to say your reactions in both of these interactions sound more ILI than LII.

Really? Any particular reason?

[Eliza Thomason]

Really? Any particular reason?

Well, its an quick intuitive observation, not connected to anything else you have said, since I have not read what else you have said here. So it may not be worth much. But here a fuller explanation of my response to what you said:

SLE - "How are you still working on *insert any physical task*? I could have done that 10 times by now."

Me - ".....I like working at my own pace."

I just see ILI working at their own pace, and often a slow one. I have not noticed that particularly about LII myself.

IEE - *Says something*

Me - wtf...

I do not imagine my LII friend responding that way at all to me. She will question what I say specifically, vs. give an overall "what are you crazy" response. I just never, ever see her doing that, but again, I can imagine an ILI doing that. Not out of rancor or ill at all, but out of his skeptical, critical, analytical way of looking at things, and that in immediae contrasts to a opposite approach of an IEE's conversation-starter, as in your example here, makes me think of a more likely IEE/ILI conversation clip.

I mention my LII friend because she is a very classic "fully LII" type of person - in the same way as I see Aylen as a very typical IEI, I see this LII friend as very LII, like an LII on steroids... so I often can see her ways in other LII's... For ILI's, I see my ESE friend's longtime ILI husband, and another ILI husband, and also SUBTEIGH [who knows I consider himself EII, and not ILI at all, but, for Subteigh, ILI is one of the typings I feel quite sure I am right on].

For example, I started a controversial thread here about "round earth". The LIIs had specific questions or info to drop, briefly, or particular arguments. It was the ILIs who wrote the "wtf" posts.

[Pallas]

I've had many clashes with people I type as EIE throughout my life. One example is a science teacher I had in high school. She would always make an effort to create a passionate, intense, and competitive emotional atmosphere in the class, and would get annoyed when I never reciprocated emotional expression and kept to myself. I never interacted with classmates in school and was very robotic. One day I told her that I would be leaving early and she went off on me in front of the class, telling me that I'm a punk, the reason I'm not coming to school is because I don't like my classmates, and that I need to stop being so self-absorbed and make an effort to fit into the group even though I don't like my classmates. I tried to calmly explain to her that my reasons for not coming to school and not interacting with classmates isn't that I don't like them or that I'm trying to be a punk, but she was unwavering. Her class was always a miserable experience for me. My conflicts with EIE are part of why I consider SLI as a possible type.

I really think there are other factors in that besides just socionics ITR, or any ITR at all. I've seen So/Sx and So/Sp SLIs often enough and my typical reaction to ILIs is that they tend to have very "Critic-y" taste in fashion and say some dorky things and be stick-in-the-mud-ish but overall I like most of them. The nastiest relationships I've had were with gamma rational family members and SLI college professors, but I also know great gamma rationals and SLIs, and I've even had an very unpleasant experience with an apparent dual despite most duals I encounter being awesome from the moment I first meet them (I think it's generally -LSI vs. -LSI being the bad ones vs. good ones for me, but even that's only approximate).

[Pallas]

Your example is extremely ironic. Zizek is most likely EIE. Definitely not IEE.

Also your pic is a meme playing off on the story, here is the real one:

http://www.openculture.com/2013/07/s...m-chomsky.html

The meme is still funny though, and that's really what Chae was going for. Žižek does look like he could be some sort of weird EIE though, even if you like to type 25% of people EIE in general. He comes off very 1D to me (as in, weak and undeveloped 1D ) and VIs rational, and I don't think ESEs generally do philosophy like that or take pleasure in provoking ( HA).

[Chae]

The meme is still funny though, and that's really what Chae was going for.

Grazie darling. As a general rule: Whenever there is a meme involved, don't take any IEE seriously That's why you can't trust @yifflord with that avatar in the first place

[Singu]

Yeah I think Zizek is an EIE, he seems like someone who can hardly contain his own enthusiasm and passion when he's debating.

[yifflord]

Grazie darling. As a general rule: Whenever there is a meme involved, don't take any IEE seriously That's why you can't trust @yifflord with that avatar in the first place

This I can confirm. When I first joined this forum everyone thought I was genuinely a furry because of my facetious username and my response was to play along with it for forever

[Chae]

This I can confirm. When I first joined this forum everyone thought I was genuinely a furry because of my facetious username and my response was to play along with it for forever

I highly support this level of stubbornness^^^

[Adam Strange]

My moms boyfriend is LIE. He is constantly trying to give me job/business advice, advice on how to better "improve my life" when I'm depressed, telling me that I need to do "such & such to ensure I am financially set for my future" yet it always falls on death ears and I usually ignore his advice completely for the most part. He is also constantly telling me that I live in a rabbit hole and that I need to get my "head out of the ground" (whatever that means) and that "I only see seven inches between my ears"... Several times when I was having dinner at their house he's droned on and on about this stuff to the point of where I'll find it insufferable, get upset and leave (he calls it running away from my problems). Despite all of this I actually like him as a person and I'm quite happy that he's dating my mom; it's mostly that I can only take what he has to say in small doses.

My EII sister on the other hand is quite receptive to his advice and even works for him now. Because of this he has said that he sees a bright future ahead of her, and that he knows she's going to be okay, lol.

I'm sure it's no news that LIE's can be extremely insensitive (and persistent about it) when they think they can "help" someone. Their motivation is to help, their methods happen to hurt the IEI supervisee.

You could tell him that you just don't feel that his advice would work for you, but you are nevertheless somehow, in your opinion, doing just fine as it is right now by your own methods.

Or you could tell him that you belong to a cult that identifies people's weaknesses, and while yours might be the inability to put advice that works for him into effect, his were determined to be his inability to dress himself tastefully, or to know why he is working (beyond making money, which he must admit is pretty unimaginative), or to visit doctors to take care of his health, or to arrange a room's furnishings in a comfortable and tasteful manner, and you'd be happy to help him with your advice on how he could improve in any of those areas.

Don't let him wriggle out if it by saying he pays someone else to do that stuff for him. Make him do those things himself, and then point out how crappy his choices are. He will have no defense against this.

If that doesn't shut him up, have him email me. I might be able to give him some advice.

[GuavaDrunk]

I work best while in a high state of internal readiness/tension (not anxiety), and once, when I finally got myself into that state after a long fallow period, I went to borrow some papers from an SEI. Being highly motivated, I asked to have them for 'only 15 mins', while I copy the relevant bits.

After lending them to me the SEI told me with a slightly worried look to calm down, slow down. I gave them a mild, cluelessly irritated look, and marched off to the photocopier at Mach 2.

[Cosmic Teapot]

I work best while in a high state of internal readiness/tension (not anxiety), and once, when I finally got myself into that state after a long fallow period, I went to borrow some papers from an SEI. Being highly motivated, I asked to have them for 'only 15 mins', while I copy the relevant bits.

After lending them to me the SEI told me with a slightly worried look to calm down, slow down. I gave them a mild, cluelessly irritated look, and marched off to the photocopier at Mach 2.

What exactly irritates you about that? Does that happen a lot in the EIE-SEI supervision relationship?

[GuavaDrunk]

What exactly irritates you about that?

I get *far* more tired and listless trying to restrain myself than by just going with the flow. It shows that they don't know me well at all: it's an irrelevant, impractical request and irritating for its own sake because it reads as asking me to stop doing anything useful (because restrain derails everything else I'm trying to do.)

Does that happen a lot in the EIE-SEI supervision relationship?

Dunno. I'm generally on good terms with this particular individual.

[The Reality Denialist]

It's funny how Ip types (yes, even IEI and ILI but less so but maybe bit more verbally) makes you to calm down. It's quite nice actually. base can somehow regulate base in extremely subtle ways. Once the other one is PoLR your magic is useless.

BUT

For example doing something could actually make you more relaxed (in proper portions) and this automatically changes when cross quadras. Intellectual stimulation can be good for alphas but seems to be like heavy work for deltas whereas some delta ways of relaxation is actually burdensome to me.

[HotSauce]

My direct manager and socionics supervisor is actually an LSI. He's an alright guy, I guess. He always has to be right and is always nitpicking over crap that doesn't matter. Our day to day dialogue tends to go like this:

Me: I made a________ yesterday! I think it will really help me accomplish ________. I spent the past week working on it, I just about went crazy, but I'm so glad to be done.

Him: Yes, but did you <insert small missed detail that is nearly insignificant to my awesome task as a whole, and can be worried about later>...?

Me: Wellllll...no.

Him: See, all you have to do is ______ and _______ and ______, then you'll be able to see at a glance where everything is.

Me: (Will not do anything he just said, because my task is still fucking awesome without his input) Oh. Yes I see. OK then, will do.

[Exodus]

My direct manager and socionics supervisor is actually an LSI. He's an alright guy, I guess. He always has to be right and is always nitpicking over crap that doesn't matter. Our day to day dialogue tends to go like this:

Me: I made a________ yesterday! I think it will really help me accomplish ________. I spent the past week working on it, I just about went crazy, but I'm so glad to be done.

Him: Yes, but did you <insert small missed detail that is nearly insignificant to my awesome task as a whole, and can be worried about later>...?

Me: Wellllll...no.

Him: See, all you have to do is ______ and _______ and ______, then you'll be able to see at a glance where everything is.

Me: (Will not do anything he just said, because my task is still fucking awesome without his input) Oh. Yes I see. OK then, will do.

lol this is all too familiar.

[Jeremy8419]

Supervision is like one of the easiest forms of communication... It straight up exists for such reason...

[Bertrand]

yes the supervision ring all has a common cognitive style