New Type Names

[Pallas]

Many of the type namers are people who the average person who isn't a mid-20th-century Soviet wouldn't know, all of them are white guys (which isn't necessarily a problem, but it still seems like we might be able to have better type namers if we open up the pool a bit), and one is even a fictional character (Hamlet isn't named after the historical Hamlet). So, let's rename the types! Serious lists are preferred, but lists meant to be as aesthetically unpleasing, morally reprehensible, excessively specific, or otherwise non-serious are very welcome as well.

[Chae]

So, instead of having the old "Balzac", "Zhukov", "Hugo" epithets, we came up with the revolutionary idea in the chatbox that we might as well revise them with more internationally known ones.

*trumpkin voice* TO MAKE SOCIONICS GREAT AGAIN!!

Maybe even contemporary examples to give it more relevance. Also, more female examples to keep it 50/50 instead of male only. We had some nice inputs so far:

ESE - Oprah
SEE - Elvis
SLE - Hemingway
EIE - Cleopatra, maybe Goethe
IEI - Cobain
IEE - Dalí
LSE - Thatcher


Debate, suggest, discuss!

The difficult part is finding type examples that have 1) good consensus and 2) accuracy.

Criterium for suggestions: The example shouldn't cast a too negative light on the type, Mr. Addi from Germany would be no EIE choice for instance. Also, the surname has to be so dope so we can use it on its own, like "I type as a Hemingway" as in "I type as a Dreiser". Elvis is an exception, nobody wants to be called a Presley

@Wyrd @FDG @Director Abbie

[DirectorAbbie]

SLE - Churchill
I don't know who Cobain is. I know Thatcher is a politician, Hemingway is an author, and Oprah has a TV show, but I don't know much more about them.
SLI - Moses

[Chae]

The question for famous SLIs as an epithet was raised, I suggest Lao Tzu.
Also to shake up the Americano-/Eurocentric cast other than Cleopatra

[Chae]

SLE - Churchill
I don't know who Cobain is. I know Thatcher is a politician, Hemingway is an author, and Oprah has a TV show, but I don't know much more about them.
SLI - Moses

Kurt Cobain tho!! Nirvana?

Yes, but everyone has an idea of their overall personality, vaguely but yeah

Moses = solid one, awh yeah.

[Pallas]

Let's merge my thread into Chae's somehow so Chae can increase her thread count and we can keep all the posts on one thread.

[Chae]

We can discard Elon Musk as a LIE representative though. The surname

[DirectorAbbie]

At first I thought, "No! People are finally calling it a socion. Let's not interfere." But this is just like Chae's thread. (Shall I merge them?)

When I first learned socionics, I called them by these names:

LSE - Director
EII - Empath
IEE - Psychologist
SLI - Craftsman

ESE - Enthusiast
LII - Analyst
ILE - Inventor
SEI - Mediator

LIE - Entrepreneur
ESI - Guardian
SEE - Diplomat
ILI - Critic

EIE - Actor
LSI - Inspector
SLE - Conqueror
IEI - Romantic

[Chae]

Let's merge my thread into Chae's somehow so Chae can increase her thread count and we can keep all the posts on one thread.

I'll merge your introduction text in my OP and you delete your thread?

EDIT: Check it, I think it works that way

[Chae]

LSE - Director
EII - Empath
IEE - Psychologist
SLI - Craftsman

ESE - Enthusiast
LII - Analyst
ILE - Inventor
SEI - Mediator

LIE - Entrepreneur
ESI - Guardian
SEE - Diplomat
ILI - Critic

EIE - Actor
LSI - Inspector
SLE - Conqueror
IEI - Romantic

Those are pretty good I think. We could combine them with the famous names. Elvis, the Diplomat

[Chae]

SEI - Bob Ross is the best consensus I can think of

[Singu]

EII = Andy Biersack, obviously.

[dot]

Is Oprah really ESE and not EIE-Fe? Would have suggested Jennifer Anniston for ESE. Or someone like Jennifer Lopez, Selena Gomez, etc. Though people might not be happy with these peeps representating them.

IEI.. Nelson Mandela? (He himself stated that he has always been an introvert. Pretty sure he is not ENFJ. He also has the soft and peaceful IEI smile, not the dramatic EIE expressions). Gandhi?
SLE.. Madonna? jk

[DirectorAbbie]

I recall a shoutbox discussion where contemporary (or at least widely familiar) personages were suggested for the Western Socionics community, although I don't remember any of them now.

I think Shakespeare could easily represent EIE, for one. Or alternatively David Bowie, if the names should be relevant to pop culture. Perhaps Madonna for SLE.

Shakespeare for EIE is acceptable. Pop culture is undesirable. I don't know any Madonna and am likely to be insistent on Churchill for SLE. (My SLE brother would approve.)

[Chae]

EII = Andy Biersack, obviously.

He is ICONIC and has to be featured at all cost. @Vespertine, you officially type as a Biersack.

[Chae]

Shakespeare for EIE is acceptable. Pop culture is undesirable. I don't know any Madonna and am likely to be insistent on Churchill for SLE. (My SLE brother would approve.)

Why is it undesirable? It has some well-known examples globally. Madonna is SLE incarnate and everybody knows her except you o.O Agreed with Willy Shakes.

[Chae]

IEI Mandela is reaaally nice! Short, positive example, universally known . Gandhi would also be an option on that scale.

[DirectorAbbie]

Why is it undesirable?

Really? I thought that was well-known. I could make a poll asking, "Is pop culture undesirable?" if you doubt the fact. It's a bunch of people acting up, trying to get attention, because attention is how they make money.

Golden oldies are the stuff that survived. People say the music back then was good because they only remember the good stuff. The pop culture of today is mostly garbage as it hasn't been properly weeded. For that reason: let's just use dead people!

[DirectorAbbie]

He is ICONIC and has to be featured at all cost. @Vespertine, you officially type as a Biersack.

I veto. You're not giving my dual some dumb name (beer sack?) I've never heard of before. Try again.
What about Abraham Lincoln? He was typed EII, right?

[Chae]

I veto. You're not giving my dual some dumb name (beer sack?) I've never heard of before. Try again.
What about Abraham Lincoln? He was typed EII, right?

You can't tell when I'm cracking jokes you're so cute Lincoln had some LII typing somwhere, the consensus is nebulous.

[Chae]

(beer sack?)

Fun fact, it does translate to "beer sack" in German but hushhh you didn't have that from me.

[Chae]

LII - maybe Chomsky.

[Chae]

Marx could be featured as well, would make a good epithet.

IEE - Cher. Sounds really good, and she's a perfect example.

[Chae]

Really? I thought that was well-known. I could make a poll asking, "Is pop culture undesirable?" if you doubt the fact. It's a bunch of people acting up, trying to get attention, because attention is how they make money.

Golden oldies are the stuff that survived. People say the music back then was good because they only remember the good stuff. The pop culture of today is mostly garbage as it hasn't been properly weeded. For that reason: let's just use dead people!

There were people like you saying that when the golden oldies were hip In 40 years, Beyoncé and Shakira will be my golden idols and I will tell others how garbage their new stuff is (although... probably not because I like new things and look for potential without culture weeding it out for me). It's a matter of perspective.

[DirectorAbbie]

There were people like you saying that when the golden oldies were hip

Oh, I'm not advocating for the golden oldies. Just for things considered to be classics. If it's modern, it's not classic.
What type is Tolkien?
Tchaikovsky might be an option for EII.

[Chae]

I think Joan of Arc may be suitable as an ESI benchmark, or as a secondary EIE consideration... although perhaps it is better to exclude celebrities with contested or inconclusive typings. Additionally it may be better to pick celebrities which can be readily related to (I don't know if most would be able to identify with Joan of Arc for example, due to her extraordinary circumstances).

Marie Curie could also be LII.

Good examples!! All celebrities are hard to relate to since they are far from us normal peasants What we want is some type of universal figure to represent the IE, if it's Joan why not, makes a very good impression.

[Chae]

Oh, I'm not advocating for the golden oldies. Just for things considered to be classics. If it's modern, it's not classic.
What type is Tolkien?
Tchaikovsky might be an option for EII.

Classics being defined how exactly?
Tolkien is Delta or Alpha intuitive.

[mclane]

I have a few for the most dubious ones:

ILI - Beethoven (instead of Balzac)
IEI - Nietzsche (instead of Yesenin)
LIE - Hernando Cortes or Leonardo Da Vinci (instead of Jack London)

Although I think it's better to just use the three letter names instead.

[Akumasdeception]

LSI- Hillary Clinton
ESI- Christopher Hitchens
EIE- Bill Clinton or Barack Obama
LSE- Richard Dawkins or Mitt Romney
ILI- Ron Paul

[Bertrand]

ILE - "Einstein"
SEI - "Renoir"
LII - "Descartes"
ESE - "Washington"

SLE - "Ghengis"
IEI - "Rousseau"
LSI - "Stalin"
EIE - "Nero"

SEE - "Taylor"
ILI - "Socrates"
LIE - "JFK"
ESI - "Salinger"

IEE - "Twain"
SLI - "Agatha"
LSE - "Thatcher"
EII - "Van Gogh"

[akash]

ILE - "Einstein"
SEI - "Renoir"
LII - "Descartes"
ESE - "Washington"

SLE - "Ghengis"
IEI - "Rousseau"
LSI - "Stalin"
EIE - "Nero"

SEE - "Taylor"
ILI - "Socrates"
LIE - "JFK"
ESI - "Salinger"

IEE - "Twain"
SLI - "Agatha"
LSE - "Thatcher"
EII - "Van Gogh"

Little bit biased on those betas? Nero, lol.

[dot]

ILE - "Einstein"
SEI - "Renoir"
LII - "Descartes"
ESE - "Washington"

SLE - "Ghengis"
IEI - "Rousseau"
LSI - "Stalin"
EIE - "Nero"

SEE - "Taylor"
ILI - "Socrates"
LIE - "JFK"
ESI - "Salinger"

IEE - "Twain"
SLI - "Agatha"
LSE - "Thatcher"
EII - "Van Gogh"

Agatha Christie is most likely IEI. She is typed so by most offical sites and also look at her facial expressions, they scream IEI (first as a kid, then as adult.. pure dreaminess):

Attachment 9951
Attachment 9952

Especially if you compare it to Filatova's portraits it's becomming very clear, hehe.

ILI: Merkel, Tesla, Hawking (or is he LII?) Colin Firth, Jay-Z (is he really ILI though?)
SEE: Beyonce, Monroe, Nicki Minaj

[Exodus]

This requires people to agree on typings. Which as this thread demonstrates is nearly impossible.

[Chae]

This requires people to agree on typings. Which as this thread demonstrates is nearly impossible.

You wanna fight? We already have ONE agreement about Elvis!!

[Not A Communist Shill]

Taking into account the Whoisbigger.com project, which attempts to rank the most famous people in history in order of "Significance", the most Significant figures for each type may be:

ILE: Albert Einstein
(not a typing that is really disputed)

LII: Immanuel Kant
(Thomas Jefferson ranks higher, but his type has been disputed: Kant would arguably be a better representative in any case).

ESE:
(a difficult challenge)

SEI:
(a difficult challenge)

SLE: Napoleon
(Theodore Roosevelt may be considered a more "neutral" representative. Alexander the Great and Henry VIII of England have both been typed SLE and rank higher than Teddy, Churchill ranks lower than all four).

LSI: Joseph Stalin
(I have not gone through the rankings for a more "neutral" example - perhaps Johann Sebastian Bach would be a highly ranked one, but may not be seen as representative. May arguably be better than Stalin however).

EIE: William Shakespeare
(Jesus and Muhammad rank higher, but Shakespeare is more "neutral" and perhaps doesn't have various complications that Jesus and Muhammad have in attempting to type religious figures from a long time ago).

IEI: Edgar Allan Poe
(Karl Marx, Plato, and Friedrich Nietzsche have all been typed IEI at some point, but not to a strong level of consensus - IEI may not even be the most common suggestion in some instances. Mahatma Gandhi is probably an IEI that people would tend to agree with the typing, although is perhaps not a "neutral" figure. Poe ranks after these.

SEE: Julius Caesar

ESI: (Queen Victoria)
(George Washington has been typed ESI in the past. Victoria is probably a typing that would not be strongly disputed, but she is perhaps not a "neutral" figure (too close to the present in terms of controversies associated with her e.g. imperialism, and perhaps too stuffy a figure to be seen as an ideal representation: this might suggest that having more than one example for each type is a good idea). George W. Bush has also been typed ESI in the past, as has George III.

LIE: (Augustus)
(Aristotle, Elizabeth I of England, and Augustus have been typed as LIE, but perhaps not to a strong level of consensus. I shall put Augustus in brackets until I find a better example at a later date).

ILI: Isaac Newton
(Charles Darwin ranks slightly higher and I know at least one individual has typed him as ILI in the past, but this is not the most common typing).

IEE: Mark Twain
(Abraham Lincoln and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart both rank higher and both have been typed as IEE in the past, but I would not say that was a strong level of consensus about them).

EII: (Fyodor Dostoyevsky)
(I have put Dostoyevsky in brackets until I can find a higher ranked example. Vincent van Gogh is one such example who has been typed that way, but perhaps not to a strong level of consensus).

LSE: Thomas Edison
(I've never had a strong level of confidence about typing historical figures as LSE, unless they have a profession that LSEs may be more drawn to: generals, explorers, architects, engineers, perhaps. George Washington and Benjamin Franklin rank higher than Edison, and I suppose objectively, that has been similar levels of doubt in attempting to type all three in the past).

SLI: Charles Darwin
(I have put Darwin here as there seems to be a fairly strong level of agreement about him being SLI, although I can't say I've been persuaded one way or another myself. Ulysses S. Grant is of a lower rank).


I will attempt this more thoroughly at some point - a semi-recent project of mine was to attempt to make a list of typical typings of the highest ranked figures in the whoisbigger.com list. Another project may be to focus only on individuals from the 20th century onwards, or even only those who are presently living. Finding both males and female representatives would be a good goal also.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Probably Currently Living (in progress):
(I don't necessarily agree with these typings)

ILE: Stephen Hawking

LII: Noam Chomsky

ESE: Mariah Carey, Meryl Streep

SEI:

SLE: Madonna, Pink (Alecia Beth Moore), Donald Trump (recent contender - and loser!)

LSI: Hillary Clinton, Vladimir Putin

EIE: Stephen King, Christina Aguilera

IEI: (Eric Clapton)

SEE: (Kanye West)

ESI:

LIE: Bill Gates

ILI: Prince Philip, (Aretha Franklin), Gordon Brown, (Warren Buffett)

IEE: John Kerry, Cher

EII: (Cliff Richard)

LSE:

SLI:

Common Disputes:
George W. Bush (typically ESI or LSE)
Barack Obama (typically IEI or ESI)
Bill Clinton (typically EIE or ESE)
Bob Dylan (IEI or ESI)
Elizabeth II (ESI or SLI)
Pope Benedict XVI
Paul McCartney (SEE, ESE, SEI etc.)
Jimmy Carter (IEI or EII)
Al Gore
Britney Spears
Sarah Palin
John McCain
Eminem
Arnold Schwarzenegger (LSE etc.)
Woody Allen (ILI or LII)
Sean Connery (LSI or SLE: he personally considers himself an introvert)
Clint Eastwood (LSI or SLI)
Robert De Niro (SLI, LSE etc.)
Prince Charles (LSE, LII: a very old typing)
Jay-Z (LIE etc.)
Yoko One (SEI, ESI etc.)
Hulk Hogan (Terry Gene Bollea)
Dwayne Johnson (The Rock)
David Beckham
David Cameron
Stephen Harper
Mel Gibson (some ST type)
Richard Dawkins (LSE, LSI, LIE etc.)
Kelly Clarkson
Kobe Bryant
Jack Nicholson (SLE, EIE etc.)
Cristiano Ronaldo
Oprah Winfrey (EIE, IEE etc.: I didn't realise until today that her type is somewhat disputed)
Brad Pitt
Ringo Starr
Shakira (ESE or SEE)
LeBron James
Kate Bush
Miley Cyrus (SEE or SLE)
Robbie Williams (SEE etc.)
Silvio Berlusconi (SLE or SEE)
J.K. Rowling (EII etc.)
Lindsay Lohan
Lance Armstrong

Possibly unresolved or undiscussed (I haven't looked in each case):
George H. W. Bush (perhaps LSE or LIE?)
Tony Blair (LIE or EIE?)
Janet Jackson
Mikhail Gorbachev
Roger Federer (EIE or IEE?)
Martin Scorsese
Elton John (maybe EIE or IEI?)
Mick Jagger (maybe LIE or EIE?)
Dick Cheney
Svetlana Kuznetsova (not sure why this person is ranked so highly)
Steven Spielberg (IEE or ILE possibly)
Michael Jordan
Rihanna
Tina Turner
Diego Maradona (possibly -ego)
Eric Clapton (IEI?)
Aretha Franklin (ILI?)
Charles Manson
John Howard
Pelé
Kanye West (SEE?)
Bruce Springsteen (LSE or SLI?)
Beyoncé Knowles
Cliff Richard (EII?)
Jesse Jackson
Triple H (Paul Michael Levesque)
Hilary Duff
Snoop Dog (Cordozar Calvin Broadus, Jr.)
Rod Stewart
John Travolta
Sean Combs (Puff Daddy)
Condoleezza Rice
S. P. Balasubrahmanyam
Rupert Murdoch
Billy Graham
Lil Wayne (Dwayne Michael Carter Jr.)
Ron Paul
Linda Ronstandt
Tom Cruise (ESE or EIE)
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
Warren Buffett (ILI?)
Zinedine Zidane
Dr. Dre (Andre Romelle Young)
Nicolas Sarkozy (LIE?)
Francis Ford Coppola
Rafael Nadal
Wayne Gretzky
Stevie Wonder
Ralph Nader
Robert Mugabe
Celine Dion
Thierry Henry
Peter Gabriel
Hank Aaron
Billy Joel
Tiger Woods
Karl Rove
Shawn Michaels
Magic Johnson
Ronaldo (Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima)
Howard Stern (ILE?)
Olivia Newton-John
Ozzy Osbourne
Jimmy Page
The Undertaker (Mark William Calaway)
Dolly Parton

I may extend this potentially endless list at some other time.

[Pallas]

In chatbox, I said EIE - Shakespeare is kind of a bad idea due to all the people arguing over who Shakespeare was, or whether Shakespeare authored all the works attributable to him (which, considering the fact that Renaissance painters signed their names on their students' works, isn't entirely far-fetched, even if Elizabethan England isn't Renaissance Italy. The modern idea of "authorship" and "artistry" is rather Romantic), which I think is why they used Hamlet in the first place ("we're not really sure who Shakespeare was, but the character Hamlet is at least EIE").

A while back, after Chae commented on "I type as a Swift" and "I'm a Dali would be awesome" (not exact quotes), I thought doing one with all painters would be funny, so people would run around like "I'm a Picasso", "I'm a Dali", "I'm a Monet" and everyone is like "so, you're comparing your soul to a painting? Do you mean that your personality is complex and consists of many fragments, and cannot be viewed coherently from one perspective like a Picasso painting?" "Nah, Picasso is the name of my type in this old Russian system"

[Chae]

Adam Strange types as a Koons.

[akash]

This requires people to agree on typings. Which as this thread demonstrates is nearly impossible.

I agree. It's much more influential if people assert from a beheaded third-person position so that the suggestion can be depersonalized.

[Stellafera]

SLE - "Ghengis"
IEI - "Rousseau"
LSI - "Stalin"
EIE - "Nero"

Why don't I get to be a conqueror or dictator, I don't even like Romanticism that much