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Thread: Do IEs Really Exist?

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    Default Do IEs Really Exist?

    Is it really coherent to speak of IEs? I've said before that socionics seems like zooming in on parts of an overall system rather than putting things together (which Gulenko points out in his cognitive styles thread in the Holographic-Panoramic section, and all the Ti-ish socionics mathematician types tend to think of types like this as well) and in that case I don't think it is.

    For example, take , what people consider the most boring function. On the one hand I tend to be good at the arts and I like to keep my things "Ordnung muss sein!"-level neat because I think that's pleasing and helps with actually accomplishing things, but on the other hand even since I was young I've said "I don't think things can be real except that they stand for something else" (which is philosophical idealism in the non-Berkeleyian sense and very, very, from a Jungian perspective) and have a rather infamous tendency to not notice things like the temperature (including wearing sandals when it's below freezing outside, then someone says "You're wearing sandals? It's below freezing..." and I respond something like "...Oh. I didn't notice, but I'll go put on some real shoes if this is weird then,") or when I've been injured (like the times where I'd fall down, people would gasp and say "Are you OK?" and I would respond "Of course, why not?" and then later I'd take off my jacket and see that I have a 2-foot-long dark black bruise across my entire arm). People will often break up functions into positive and negative versions of functions, like in this case + and -, which are "enjoys positive aesthetic experiences, organization, etc." and "avoids discomfort" respectively in this case, and you could say that I'm good at + and frighteningly bad at -, but that seems like severely overcomplicating things to me, and people don't think like that in general and that gets into alternative models that are very, very far from classical socionics (as if people used classical socionics in the first place. People use Filatova around here generally).

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    its the question, is it just attitudes of the psyche which is invented (estimations of the real deal) or is it real dimension in the fabric of reality? It is impossible really to prove one over the other

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    Is it really coherent to speak of IEs? I've said before that socionics seems like zooming in on parts of an overall system rather than putting things together (which Gulenko points out in his cognitive styles thread in the Holographic-Panoramic section, and all the Ti-ish socionics mathematician types tend to think of types like this as well) and in that case I don't think it is.

    For example, take , what people consider the most boring function. On the one hand I tend to be good at the arts and I like to keep my things "Ordnung muss sein!"-level neat because I think that's pleasing and helps with actually accomplishing things, but on the other hand even since I was young I've said "I don't think things can be real except that they stand for something else" (which is philosophical idealism in the non-Berkeleyian sense and very, very, from a Jungian perspective) and have a rather infamous tendency to not notice things like the temperature (including wearing sandals when it's below freezing outside, then someone says "You're wearing sandals? It's below freezing..." and I respond something like "...Oh. I didn't notice, but I'll go put on some real shoes if this is weird then,") or when I've been injured (like the times where I'd fall down, people would gasp and say "Are you OK?" and I would respond "Of course, why not?" and then later I'd take off my jacket and see that I have a 2-foot-long dark black bruise across my entire arm). People will often break up functions into positive and negative versions of functions, like in this case + and -, which are "enjoys positive aesthetic experiences, organization, etc." and "avoids discomfort" respectively in this case, and you could say that I'm good at + and frighteningly bad at -, but that seems like severely overcomplicating things to me, and people don't think like that in general and that gets into alternative models that are very, very far from classical socionics (as if people used classical socionics in the first place. People use Filatova around here generally).
    You voiced several thoughts I've been having since earlier today, but better than I could. I'm curious about the responses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    its the question, is it just attitudes of the psyche which is invented (estimations of the real deal) or is it real dimension in the fabric of reality? It is impossible really to prove one over the other
    Then psychology is not a science. Which is already what half or more of the scientific community thinks anyways, so that's not a new sentiment, just an unusual one for a typology forum.

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    @Wyrd You had linked this before:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/...lographically/

    IMO, Information Elements and TIM can be conceptualized in the same way


    TLDR: All forms of information are contained in each and every one piece of the informational puzzle


    from one aspect or point of reference, all other points or pieces of information can be inferred



    So, in other words, the way this can apply to IE and Model A is that every personality configuration includes all of the Information Elements in its structure


    one IE holographically contains, or implies the existence of, all other IEs


    If interpreting reality in a philosophical sense, we can say IEs exist, in the way above, if you can accept that there is an archetypal aspect to reality.

    ff




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    IEs are just a model or a theory... because we can't really know what really goes inside of our brains (yet...), and even if we did, it would be difficult to make sense out of it. So they're not "real" in a sense, but theories are supposed to help things more predictable and understandable for us... Are IEs achieving that? I don't really know...

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    IE's are arbitrary categorizations of observed behaviour; they're simply the results of a classification system; the categories do exist; and they're useful to a degree. They certainly don't define the functioning of cognitive processes; observational data can only be used to verify function once function is defined to some level of granularity. However, it seems that nobody has yet looked beyond the classifications. It's somewhat like being satisfied with categories of chemical reactions and not bothering to look for atomic or string theory.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    Then psychology is not a science. Which is already what half or more of the scientific community thinks anyways, so that's not a new sentiment, just an unusual one for a typology forum.
    Science states that everything is false until you can prove without any grain of doubt that it is not false. Theoretically by science than only earth have life in the universe.

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    is boring unless you have my needy existence around I laugh my ass off when someone talks about how their eyeballs feel like to them. I stare when someone is brushing their hair like a creep. I also get excited when I see someone stuffing themselves with food and enjoying it. I get particularly turned on if it's salad, don't ask me why. Also, cuddles are the world to me just saiyan.



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    Works somewhat. Is anything real? Just saying. This has been my constant problem: I'm not sure if I'm at sleep, part of advanced simulation series or possibly star of the Truman Show....
    Enneagram 3 blindspot. Visual deficits in 4, 8. Triple instinctual blindspot.

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    because enneagram is just too simple and therefore we need to develop a new classification system called Rhombic triacontahedron with life module containing eukaryotes, prokaryotes and virus.

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    They are real, and represent the totality of existence.

    Intuition - Time
    Sensing - Space
    Logic - Matter
    Feeling - Energy

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    They are real, and represent the totality of existence.

    Intuition - Time
    Sensing - Space
    Logic - Matter
    Feeling - Energy
    Boi summarized it real quick and raw for y'all, discussion: end!



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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    They are real, and represent the totality of existence.

    Intuition - Time
    Sensing - Space
    Logic - Matter
    Feeling - Energy
    This should end the = kinetic energy/willpower thing then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    Is it really coherent to speak of IEs? I've said before that socionics seems like zooming in on parts of an overall system rather than putting things together (which Gulenko points out in his cognitive styles thread in the Holographic-Panoramic section, and all the Ti-ish socionics mathematician types tend to think of types like this as well) and in that case I don't think it is.

    For example, take , what people consider the most boring function. On the one hand I tend to be good at the arts and I like to keep my things "Ordnung muss sein!"-level neat because I think that's pleasing and helps with actually accomplishing things, but on the other hand even since I was young I've said "I don't think things can be real except that they stand for something else" (which is philosophical idealism in the non-Berkeleyian sense and very, very, from a Jungian perspective) and have a rather infamous tendency to not notice things like the temperature (including wearing sandals when it's below freezing outside, then someone says "You're wearing sandals? It's below freezing..." and I respond something like "...Oh. I didn't notice, but I'll go put on some real shoes if this is weird then,") or when I've been injured (like the times where I'd fall down, people would gasp and say "Are you OK?" and I would respond "Of course, why not?" and then later I'd take off my jacket and see that I have a 2-foot-long dark black bruise across my entire arm). People will often break up functions into positive and negative versions of functions, like in this case + and -, which are "enjoys positive aesthetic experiences, organization, etc." and "avoids discomfort" respectively in this case, and you could say that I'm good at + and frighteningly bad at -, but that seems like severely overcomplicating things to me, and people don't think like that in general and that gets into alternative models that are very, very far from classical socionics (as if people used classical socionics in the first place. People use Filatova around here generally).
    The weight of the evidence here seems to be against strength in Si. The arts involve a lot of Fe also, you'll find many Beta NF artists for example.

    "I like to keep my things "Ordnung muss sein!"-level neat because I think that's pleasing and helps with actually accomplishing things"

    This is not really Si, it's more like TiSe in socionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    This should end the = kinetic energy/willpower thing then.
    These definitions aren't exactly definitive, but space does have a close connection with force: force is how you make things move through space. Se evaluates both where things are in space and what you have to do to get them where you want them to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post


    These definitions aren't exactly definitive, but space does have a close connection with force: force is how you make things move through space. Se evaluates both where things are in space and what you have to do to get them where you want them to be.
    That wasn't an agreement, it was actually sarcasm. It's not uncommon for it to go unnoticed when it's deadpan though, specially online. I do believe that is Force, in the Star Wars way.

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    I believe that IEs relate to certain "clusters" of behaviour, awareness and tendencies. (Which? Not entirely sure, though I can think of mappings like social dominance orientation and Se)

    On the one hand I tend to be good at the arts and I like to keep my things "Ordnung muss sein!"-level neat because I think that's pleasing and helps with actually accomplishing things, but on the other hand even since I was young I've said "I don't think things can be real except that they stand for something else" (which is philosophical idealism in the non-Berkeleyian sense and very, very, from a Jungian perspective) and have a rather infamous tendency to not notice things like the temperature...
    I think is about understanding how your body feels, why it feels a certain way, and how your body's state can impact your mental state. So, like, caring about art isn't super unless it's about the sounds (e.g. I like certain types of music because it puts me in a happy mood, but people probably wouldn't say I was treating it like "art", just as happy music.)

    Your preference for order is probably S-related, but maybe ? Cos it's about the external world.

    Have a non-Berkeleyian idealism as an internal philosophy sounds... interesting? Like, maybe cos I only know Berkeley's idealism so I don't know what your version means. Maybe that's a -esque interpretation, where it's kind of like "The world is ultimately like X, and even though my mind keeps thinking it's like Y, I just need to remind myself occasionally that it's actually like X." Like, you don't actually experience the world in that way (your body doesn't go around feeling "oh, I'm experiencing stuff and thus creating it because, as we know, it's my experiencing of it which means it exists, as that is what we mean when we say 'existence'."), instead you have an interpretation of how the world is really structured, but that's a thing.

    That doesn't mean you are -ego (although you probably are -valuing if you put a lot of emphasis on it), it's just a thought. Like, if your non-Berkeleyian idealism is super internally consistent and it seems to have good explanatory power then I could believe you are -ego. Because in that case, you are naturally good at the IE "cluster" of "structuring thoughts and putting them into categories and models" which is .
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    It depends on what you mean by IE (information element) and 'exist'. Are you referring to information/aspects or cognitive processing/functions?

    You can choose any definitions of IE and they will of course exist. But you are asking whether they correspond with our observations of the types or not, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    I do believe that is Force, in the Star Wars way.
    ok, Yoda

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    ok, Yoda
    Lol, it really must hurt I wouldn't know

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    I do believe that is Force, in the Star Wars way.
    The Force is actually -Ne/+Ni. Delta NFs and Gamma NTs would make the best Jedis, although luke is probably SEI-Fe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    The Force is actually -Ne/+Ni. Delta NFs and Gamma NTs would make the best Jedis, although luke is probably SEI-Fe.
    im curious as to what you think obi wan (in the prequels) is

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    im curious as to what you think obi wan (in the prequels) is
    I guess IEI-Ni.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    I guess IEI-Ni.
    man I love that guy, but maybe its true

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    Just stumbled across this excerpt in a mandatory reading for a psych class today.... reminded me that maybe one day ill do socionics /personality research profesinoally

    Baghurst et al. (2004) explored the relationships among attentional style, cognitive strategies,and performance, with novice rowers who were classified as internalizers (n = 7; i.e., thosewho directed their attentional focus internally toward physical sensations, etc.), or externalizers(n = 7; i.e., those who focused their attention on their external environment). Each groupcompleted a 15-min maximal effort test on an ergometer under either a prescribed associativeor dissociative focus condition (counterbalanced order). It was found that the internalizergroup performed significantly better in the associative condition than in the dissociativecondition, whereas the externalizer group performed significantly better in the dissociativecondition than in the associative condition

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    It seems to be a finger pointed at the moon question. The moon is real, but your focusing on the finger.
    Only in America does gotta substitute for wanna so we can avoid the guilt . . .[a]nd only in America do we want the system to force us to do the right thing so we can take the credit. "

    "There's no Like button for hard work or triple integrals, which is doubly interesting because calculus was invented to make hard work easier. "I just don't get math." Can't do math if you weren't taught to think logically, and logic is tough on kids' self esteems and makes them way less submissive, easier just to put on a video."

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    WOW!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    The Force is actually -Ne/+Ni. Delta NFs and Gamma NTs would make the best Jedis, although luke is probably SEI-Fe.
    Gamma Jedi? huh. I guess the idea of a light Sith appeals to me, even though Star Wars always seems to associate the dark side as crazy power-hungry psychopathic assholes that loose control of themselves and their emotions.

    Someone that uses darkness to seek power and passion and control, yet sees the value in tempering it with compassion. Has that ever happened in Star Wars?

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