Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Evolution and Socionics and genes

  1. #1
    Tigerfadder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    524
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Evolution and Socionics and genes

    There seem to be no correlation between type of parents and child, not like eye color is past in generations. The type seem to be totally random from all we know today. So each person have hundreds of generations in their DNA and so there have to be at least a few of each type in each "line" of offsprings. Maybe someone with a lot of some type inherent a body more fit for it due to evolution. So if in many generations a persons parents and parents-parents and parents-parents-parents and so on have been SLE the actual body is developed to fit the SLE but if this last person turn out as EII it might be a hard life. Thoughts?
    if you wish to see the truth then hold no opinion for or against

    * Tigerfadder
    has reached 500 posts!* 04:52 PM




  2. #2

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    9,905
    Mentioned
    200 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think probably you are over-estimating Se.... I mean being good at Te or Si can more than make up for a Se deficiency cuz of str8 ppl business logic and all that. True, in a very primitive and sexual way Se wins out... women did pre-select big dicks and aggressive dominant males to have sex with (and they still do that lol) but I think nowadays other stuff is mixed in. In modern society, Fe is very helpful... I mean probably not in the sort of gritty dog-eat-dog world way End and others think but there are many factors to all situations. EIIs often rise to political power in ways that a Se valuer can't touch. It's like that episode of Supernatural, when Crowley told Abbaddon she will lose (and she did) because she thought everything was about raw power, when really it was about being a good politician (which she lacked, she turned everything into that primitive fight thing.)

    Why do you think an EII have it worse than SLE anyway? Lots of Delta institutions are filled with SLE being locked up and they have NO POWER. Deltas be like 'ha your Se is useless here, villain.'
    Becky Rosen: Honestly... the only place people understood me was the message boards. They were grumpy and overly literal, but at least we shared a common passion.

  3. #3
    Tigerfadder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    524
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This topic was about the theory of evolution and how it interact with Socionics and verse versa. Not about the dicks of EII!
    if you wish to see the truth then hold no opinion for or against

    * Tigerfadder
    has reached 500 posts!* 04:52 PM




  4. #4
    Rebelondeck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    312
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think that humans are born with essentially the same processor configurations; and genetics may play a part in register size and access times. Even with enhanced processing, we still have to pare down input and output processing in order for our brains to be able cope. Through some subconscious process, I think that selection (if one can call it that?) is precipitated more by environment when the brain is in its most plastic state. We may have chosen aspects of our niche processing in the womb, and tweaked it up until as late as early adulthood.

    a.k.a. I/O

  5. #5
    Transhumanist Singularity's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Earth
    TIM
    Social/SP 4-5-1
    Posts
    1,210
    Mentioned
    54 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Stratiyevskaya said something about how each types evolved to excel/survive socially in certain areas... like how EIEs were evolved to live during periods of harsh monarchies and authoritarian regimes.

  6. #6
    Tigerfadder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    524
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Stratiyevskaya said something about how each types evolved to excel/survive socially in certain areas... like how EIEs were evolved to live during periods of harsh monarchies and authoritarian regimes.
    It may be the case. but why would they than pop-up again the way they do? For example I know twins (look the same) which are LSE and ILI. I know a mother LSE who got ESE, SEE and EII. Is it just that we got not enough data to make predictions in this field or what is the deal?
    if you wish to see the truth then hold no opinion for or against

    * Tigerfadder
    has reached 500 posts!* 04:52 PM




  7. #7
    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    EII-Ne Sp/So
    Posts
    14,258
    Mentioned
    200 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    The Big Five traits are known to have a significant degree of heritability ("openness to experience was estimated to have a 57% genetic influence, extraversion 54%, conscientiousness 49%, neuroticism 48%, and agreeableness 42%", according to the wiki article on the Big Five): I have no reason to doubt that this is not also true of Socionics personality traits - the discrepancy may be down to a lack of available data to make an adequate study, or because each type is a very specific thing rather than something more general such as "extraversion" etc.
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

  8. #8
    Alomoes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    TIM
    INTp (ILI) -Ni 1w9
    Posts
    215
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    No. This sounds like lammarck theory, where the donkey needed to reach the tree to eat the leaves, and so because of that its descendants became a giraffe because of that need over time. While this theory might be true, I'm just going to say it is not for the fact that it is generally not accepted by the scientific community.

    The accepted theory is that a creature has some kind of information stored in it that tells it what traits to express. When the person mates, there are two creatures. Their information gets merged and some information is forgotten, as you can't have more than the normal amount of information without having some kind of problems. Then, taking that merged data, you get a new creature. This only works on certain creatures though; It gets more complicated when we talk about fungi, Protozoa, and monerans (bacteria).

    Also, whether someone's body is fit for them is subjective, and subjectivity does not mean anything to a scientist. Why they think their body is not fit is not subjective though.

    Do know that your information is useful as culture can be affected in the way you described, and the way someone fits into their culture is definitely not subjective.

    Finally, it has not been proven, but there is a correlation between parent's and their children's personalities.
    I've decided that it would be best for me to answer questions in a non-type based manner, seeing as I have trouble deciding types of people.

    I best respond to questions. I do not know why, but I do.

    IMPORTANT: If I am wrong, PLEASE TELL ME. I long to see things from different perspectives.

    Types on mobile mostly, expect auto correct to mess up my texts.

    If I stop responding or posting, I've probably taken a break from posting stuff. This really taxes me for whatever reason. Said break could last anywhere from a month to a year. I will likely be back, as socionics is one of my interests. If I'm not on here, you can contact me on steam.

    Attempts to adhere to a certain Q U A L I T Y. Your mileage may vary.

    Note, I tend to edit my posts. As such it would be prudent to check them again soon after I posted.

  9. #9
    Tigerfadder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    524
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alomoes View Post
    No. This sounds like lammarck theory, where the donkey needed to reach the tree to eat the leaves, and so because of that its descendants became a giraffe because of that need over time. While this theory might be true, I'm just going to say it is not for the fact that it is generally not accepted by the scientific community.

    The accepted theory is that a creature has some kind of information stored in it that tells it what traits to express. When the person mates, there are two creatures. Their information gets merged and some information is forgotten, as you can't have more than the normal amount of information without having some kind of problems. Then, taking that merged data, you get a new creature. This only works on certain creatures though; It gets more complicated when we talk about fungi, Protozoa, and monerans (bacteria).

    Also, whether someone's body is fit for them is subjective, and subjectivity does not mean anything to a scientist. Why they think their body is not fit is not subjective though.

    Do know that your information is useful as culture can be affected in the way you described, and the way someone fits into their culture is definitely not subjective.

    Finally, it has not been proven, but there is a correlation between parent's and their children's personalities.
    The theory of evolution tells the story of the fittest survive, the ones that reach the greenest leaves make babies, and those babies pair with those who also grow most strong by the greenest leaves. While I find this a bit simplistic it is the theory of evolution. The DNA store knowledge about you and past it to next generation. In the future we might look forward to pick what color of eye our babies have, unless one is the best and everyone pick that one.

    Yet, in the bigger scheme of things this tell the story of a change in prioritization. While evolution tells the story that the one who reach the greener leaves make babies, Socionics seem to have no such base. It tell the story of stored knowledge that is not controlled by outer circumcises. While some people start wars over colour of skin, eye colour, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhvWr44s1bc). Wars over personality types can not be made since it random. Your brother might be the type you are fighting against, or your son. Its such a weird thing.
    if you wish to see the truth then hold no opinion for or against

    * Tigerfadder
    has reached 500 posts!* 04:52 PM




  10. #10
    Alomoes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    TIM
    INTp (ILI) -Ni 1w9
    Posts
    215
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yeah, that sounds about right. I just tend to emphasize that it is random chance that evolution happens.

    I do not know whether socionics is linked between families. That would be a great thing to survey and find out.
    I've decided that it would be best for me to answer questions in a non-type based manner, seeing as I have trouble deciding types of people.

    I best respond to questions. I do not know why, but I do.

    IMPORTANT: If I am wrong, PLEASE TELL ME. I long to see things from different perspectives.

    Types on mobile mostly, expect auto correct to mess up my texts.

    If I stop responding or posting, I've probably taken a break from posting stuff. This really taxes me for whatever reason. Said break could last anywhere from a month to a year. I will likely be back, as socionics is one of my interests. If I'm not on here, you can contact me on steam.

    Attempts to adhere to a certain Q U A L I T Y. Your mileage may vary.

    Note, I tend to edit my posts. As such it would be prudent to check them again soon after I posted.

  11. #11
    Tigerfadder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    524
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alomoes View Post
    Yeah, that sounds about right. I just tend to emphasize that it is random chance that evolution happens.

    I do not know whether socionics is linked between families. That would be a great thing to survey and find out.
    Ya. If for example humans would start to pick their partner based on Socionics, the "normal" evolution would size to impact in the way you described with the donkey becoming the giraffe and maybe we would start to see evolution in type somehow. Anyhow the human evolution is kind of weird nowadays and I wonder how many people have created their own theory of Socionics for themselves.
    if you wish to see the truth then hold no opinion for or against

    * Tigerfadder
    has reached 500 posts!* 04:52 PM




  12. #12
    Rebelondeck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    312
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    It may be the case. but why would they than pop-up again the way they do? For example I know twins (look the same) which are LSE and ILI. I know a mother LSE who got ESE, SEE and EII. Is it just that we got not enough data to make predictions in this field or what is the deal?
    We seem to be discussing CPU versus information processing. CPU capability is determined by the X-chromosome, ergo, genetics. However, information processing is somewhat akin to a word processor or some other app. An app may be selected partially because of CPU capability or a set of circumstances such as one twin was on the inside half of the womb. A CPU is nothing without its apps and an app must be able to adapt to a perceived set of circumstances and perhaps that is why there's seeming plasticity in the firmware. One has to ask why some personalities change after brain damage; is the structure of the brain the root of personality or was some other app adapted. I have said before that we can become experts in modern word processing without having the latest computer on the market or knowing into which end of a computer one has to blow.

    a.k.a. I/O

  13. #13
    Tigerfadder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    524
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    We seem to be discussing CPU versus information processing. CPU capability is determined by the X-chromosome, ergo, genetics. However, information processing is somewhat akin to a word processor or some other app. An app may be selected partially because of CPU capability or a set of circumstances such as one twin was on the inside half of the womb. A CPU is nothing without its apps and an app must be able to adapt to a perceived set of circumstances and perhaps that is why there's seeming plasticity in the firmware. One has to ask why some personalities change after brain damage; is the structure of the brain the root of personality or was some other app adapted. I have said before that we can become experts in modern word processing without having the latest computer on the market or knowing into which end of a computer one has to blow.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Why are you talking CPU's? I heard that the computer ideally is supposed to be design in similar ways as the brain process information but in the end it just does not.
    if you wish to see the truth then hold no opinion for or against

    * Tigerfadder
    has reached 500 posts!* 04:52 PM




  14. #14
    Resident WOP FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Basel
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,264
    Mentioned
    119 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The general consensus is that temperament (EJ-IJ-IP-EP) is fixed whereas the other two letters can be influenced by the environment to a certain degree, but only moving forwards in the quadrants because you focus on developing the "next" function.
    Basically you only need temperament not to be heritable in order to make socionics work, the exact type may then be determined by environmental influences.
    fatti non foste a viver come bruti ma per seguir virtute e canoscenza

  15. #15
    Rebelondeck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    312
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    Why are you talking CPU's? I heard that the computer ideally is supposed to be design in similar ways as the brain process information but in the end it just does not.
    A central processing unit is circuitry that performs basic logical, control and input/output operations; and the CPU is distinguished from external components such as memory and sensors (ears, eyes, etc.), and the high-level programming, which sounds a lot like brain function. The difficulty with analyzing the brain is not having a port from which one can separate the software from the firmware from the hardware. The brain may likely have associative processors with content-addressable memory but fundamentally, there are CPUs at it's root. Some may lean more toward spiritual mumbo jumbo but the engineer in me won't let me go there.

    a.k.a. I/O

  16. #16
    akash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    54
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Types are expressions of the current state of evolution as well as environmental influences, so separating out extremely long-run trends will be difficult until we can delineate local trends (or maybe vice-versa. Or maybe different angles of long-run trends show the meaning of local trends back to long-run, etc.)

    In general, though, you can count on any detail being washed out.

  17. #17
    Tigerfadder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    524
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    The general consensus is that temperament (EJ-IJ-IP-EP) is fixed whereas the other two letters can be influenced by the environment to a certain degree, but only moving forwards in the quadrants because you focus on developing the "next" function.
    Basically you only need temperament not to be heritable in order to make socionics work, the exact type may then be determined by environmental influences.
    How is your type "influenced by the environment"? And between who is this consensus you talk about? What you state here is that type is not determined from a very early age but grown with time.
    if you wish to see the truth then hold no opinion for or against

    * Tigerfadder
    has reached 500 posts!* 04:52 PM




  18. #18
    Tigerfadder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    524
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It is a great thought that each type have an evolution of their own and that the more people of each type find out ways to use their functions and their types abilities in the best possible ways and somehow communicate it there will be a upgrade for other people of that type. As if each type is a computer.

    Yet there is no sensory way of identify type, at least none that is identified.

    Some random thoughts on this topic.
    if you wish to see the truth then hold no opinion for or against

    * Tigerfadder
    has reached 500 posts!* 04:52 PM




  19. #19
    crazymaisy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SE USA
    TIM
    ILI-Ni GAMMA
    Posts
    118
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Anecdotal information from me about my own children: They are distinct individuals at birth. Each one has been as different from each other in many ways, only similar where normal human body/behaviour know no boundaries.

    I have 4 children. Clearly each one had/has tendencies on how they interact, respond, like, love, etc. Growing up it's uncanny how they are so distinctly individual yet fit a type of person, each one different from each other.

    Then there is the mother and father: ILI-SEE and in order of birth our children ILI, IEI, SLE, SEE.

    I didn't peg them with profile names and force fit them. Just trusting that to be true is where the rest of the world will fail to see what I have noted since there is no scientific study available.
    Maisy
    ILI-Ni (INTp)
    I think in pictures, moving pictures...

    Recommended Music - ILI-Ni



    "And one peculiar point I see,
    As one of the many ones of me.
    As truth is gathered, I rearrange,
    Inside out, outside in, inside out, outside in,
    Perpetual change"


    Yes - The Yes Album - from "Perpetual Change" (written by Howe and Squire)

  20. #20
    Rebelondeck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    312
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crazymaisy View Post
    .......the mother and father: ILI-SEE and in order of birth our children ILI, IEI, SLE, SEE...................
    I find it interesting that you're all input oriented (p): three observers and three explorers. Could I assume the parents are supportive role-models who easily resolve conflict in the family?

    a.k.a. I/O

  21. #21
    crazymaisy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SE USA
    TIM
    ILI-Ni GAMMA
    Posts
    118
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I find it interesting that you're all input oriented (p): three observers and three explorers. Could I assume the parents are supportive role-models who easily resolve conflict in the family?

    a.k.a. I/O
    We get along very well. The biggest conflict we have is our 9 year SEE who is very ADHD.

    I grew up in an extremely "dysfunctional" like home. My experience didn't make me want to change that by force in my grown up life, but it did make me want an understanding husband, and because of that, I suppose I found my dual, or he found me, or whatever. God's blessing in our offspring? No doubts about that!
    Maisy
    ILI-Ni (INTp)
    I think in pictures, moving pictures...

    Recommended Music - ILI-Ni



    "And one peculiar point I see,
    As one of the many ones of me.
    As truth is gathered, I rearrange,
    Inside out, outside in, inside out, outside in,
    Perpetual change"


    Yes - The Yes Album - from "Perpetual Change" (written by Howe and Squire)

  22. #22
    glue-like mass unsuccessfull Alphamale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Land of Fe PoLR
    TIM
    Alpha prob. ILE-Ne
    Posts
    732
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Considering Big 5. I don't see 1:1 correlation to IMEs.


    Actually I'm not that disagreeable even when I have low but there are matters outside of it. Sure I'm going to analyze things into pieces.Actually I'm not that disagreeable even when I have low but there are matters outside of it what seems to be the immediate reaction. Even though my mother was pretty clear extrovert she was kind of introverted on Big5 scale. Things are pretty similar with my extraverted sister. My introverted sister actually shows more tendencies towards Big5 extraversion. My introverted father is actually quite active considering his introverted sensing activities and spends time with his friends in quite relaxed manner. The introverted ones in my family are the most sociable.
    Last edited by unsuccessfull Alphamale; 03-07-2017 at 05:31 PM.
    From me one can not demand and expect:
    • practicality of ideas;
    • punctuality and diligence;
    • consistency and completeness;
    • constant order in the home and in the workplace;
    • quality of routine work;
    • soft skills to adapt to the interlocutor.


    Anal Expulsive personality (no hyphens for you)

    So called false dual logic that actually reveals some remote potentials:
    "sure crocodiles can fly, but very, very close to the ground"
    Just think about it.

  23. #23
    thehotelambush's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    6,097
    Mentioned
    90 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    The general consensus is that temperament (EJ-IJ-IP-EP) is fixed whereas the other two letters can be influenced by the environment to a certain degree, but only moving forwards in the quadrants because you focus on developing the "next" function.
    This is NOT the consensus by any means. The consensus is that sociotype does not change.

    Articles - Questionnaire - Typology Network - Blog

    يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا

    O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another.

  24. #24
    Resident WOP FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Basel
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,264
    Mentioned
    119 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    This is NOT the consensus by any means. The consensus is that sociotype does not change.
    damn, busted
    fatti non foste a viver come bruti ma per seguir virtute e canoscenza

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •