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Thread: LSEs wanting Fi

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Default LSEs wanting Fi

    Fi determines ethics (right wrong judgement) in a circumstance.

    Here's an LSE asking for ethics.

    An LSE asks an EII "I'm going to quit my job because I can't stand these morons anymore. Now they are telling me that I'm messing up at my job. I also think that my coworker has been throwing me under the bus. I have another job offer and I'm ready to walk away. I'm not getting what I want. I want at least one day a week off from work. What they are doing is not wrong. What would you do?"

    My first inclination is to listen and support. Then I would ask questions along the lines of certainty. What evidence do you have for an unsupportive coworker? If the answer is "I just know" then it just isn't enough and I would say "you should be more certain before you make accusations." LSEs would question further to discover or clarify the issue and thus having done so discovered that they were wrong in their initial determination. I would ask specific questions " what job did you mess up on? How do you know that your coworker is throwing you under the bus?" All to get LSEs to think instead of react emotionally. I would ask "what do you find are the benefits and drawbacks of both jobs? How do you find that the new job will allow you to succeed in the way that you want for the future? Is there growth opportunity in the new job?"

    Then after all that's been answered and thought about I would say "I think that you are over reacting and accusing your coworker unnecessarily (which turns out to be correct). You shouldn't just walk away because you are upset and it's wrong to do it without a formal notice because this is a small industry and people talk to each other and rely on personal references so your reputation is at stake. It's good to keep your relationships on a cordial level with this network." LSEs say "yes, you're right. I'm just upset right now and I need to vent." I say "I wouldn't say or do anything dramatic; I would just stay calm and be polite."


    Please don't quote this
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 02-14-2017 at 04:56 PM.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    I wonder how my approach is different than from SEE who seek to control the LSEs behavior

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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    I think ethics is a learned quality; it's not innate in any type. What LSE needs from EII is an independent analysis of the consequences of LSE action, specifically the relative impact of this action upon others; however, LSEs will never think that they want this analysis although they will be grateful for it after the fact. The LSE needs restraint and refection, of which EII are masters. LSEs don't need listeners although they may like them; they need active participants in their rationalization processes, independent opinions and people who can cool the LSE's jets, which falls in the EII's purview..........

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I think ethics is a learned quality; it's not innate in any type. What LSE needs from EII is an independent analysis of the consequences of LSE action, specifically the relative impact of this action upon others; however, LSEs will never think that they want this analysis although they will be grateful for it after the fact. The LSE needs restraint and refection, of which EII are masters. LSEs don't need listeners although they may like them; they need active participants in their rationalization processes, independent opinions and people who can cool the LSE's jets, which falls in the EII's purview..........

    a.k.a. I/O
    You don't see how I did just that at the end here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa in the op the analysis
    I would say "I think that you are over reacting and accusing your coworker unnecessarily (which turns out to be correct). You shouldn't just walk away because you are upset and it's wrong to do it without a formal notice because this is a small industry and people talk to each other and rely on personal references so your reputation is at stake. It's good to keep your relationships on a cordial level with this network." LSEs say "yes, you're right. I'm just upset right now and I need to vent." I say "I wouldn't say or do anything dramatic; I would just stay calm and be polite."

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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    You don't see how I did just that at the end here?
    Yes. Perhaps I got a little too redundant in my summary. I was only trying to make the point that you should not be describing ethical direction as if it comes from Fi; it comes from you and the way that you were raised and influenced......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Yes. Perhaps I got a little too redundant in my summary. I was only trying to make the point that you should not be describing ethical direction as if it comes from Fi; it comes from you and the way that you were raised and influenced......

    a.k.a. I/O
    Wherever they come from, in the midst of the confusion LSEs get lost about what to think of their relationships. Once friendly and trustworthy coworker is now suspiciously viewed by the LSEs and they don't know what to think of people or the situation at hand because they over react. Maybe it's my calm nature that allows me to keep a level head during the crisis

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    I Fi-seek by vaguely mentioning something personal and secretly hoping they latch onto that and dig a little deeper. I like it when they give suggestions as to why I may think in a certain way, but not if they act like what they say on the matter is definite. I like carefully-crafted questions that make me realize things.

    From my non-recent experience with SEEs: they're good at latching onto clues and digging deeper, probably better than EIIs are. But they're prone to making irrelevant comments that sidetrack rather than edify.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    ........is now suspiciously viewed by the LSEs ......... they over react..........
    Unfortunately LSEs can get somewhat paranoid when they cannot see the forest because the trees keep getting in the way so they sometimes try to cut down a tree or two in order to see better......

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    Nothing in the cage of my ribcage Singu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    I Fi-seek by vaguely mentioning something personal and secretly hoping they latch onto that and dig a little deeper. I like it when they give suggestions as to why I may think in a certain way, but not if they act like what they say on the matter is definite. I like carefully-crafted questions that make me realize things.

    From my non-recent experience with SEEs: they're good at latching onto clues and digging deeper, probably better than EIIs are. But they're prone to making irrelevant comments that sidetrack rather than edify.
    Please, tell us more... (if you want). I find finding out how Fi works to be interesting.

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Unfortunately LSEs can get somewhat paranoid when they cannot see the forest because the trees keep getting in the way so they sometimes try to cut down a tree or two in order to see better......
    No. No, I don't relate to that. "Can't see the forest for all of the trees" and "can't see the town for all of the houses" are two phrases that I've quite literally related to, even to, "Wow, there sure are a lot of trees here...hey...does that mean we're in a forest?"

    I'm not inclined to look at the big picture, except when it comes to spiritual matters (where to do otherwise would be quite unhealthy). I want to know where I fit in and to do that well so that however the forest turns out, my tree is healthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Please, tell us more... (if you want). I find finding out how Fi works to be interesting.
    Well, I think an -creative would be best at pinpointing what is. It would be easier if you were to ask specific questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Cosmic Teapot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    I Fi-seek by vaguely mentioning something personal and secretly hoping they latch onto that and dig a little deeper. I like it when they give suggestions as to why I may think in a certain way, but not if they act like what they say on the matter is definite. I like carefully-crafted questions that make me realize things.

    From my non-recent experience with SEEs: they're good at latching onto clues and digging deeper, probably better than EIIs are. But they're prone to making irrelevant comments that sidetrack rather than edify.
    This is eye opening, thanks. I'm surprised when Te-leading types do this and I don't know how to react, because they seem so private most of the time and then suddenly drop very personal thoughts.

    I want to be empathic and kind but I fear it's not the right kind of empathy they need since I have Fe. I don't want them to retreat back into their shell...

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    I was starting to compare the Fi of different types, but realized I just kept thinking in flavor terms. So that's what I'll offer:

    SLI has a pleasant, mellow flavor. But it's not easy to get. Like it uses seasonal ingredients and there's never enough to go around. So it's nice when it can be obtained, but the portions are small.

    SEE has a hearty, energetic flavor. And the first few bites are good. But then one begins to wonder what's in this stuff, and the aftertaste isn't quite right.

    IEE has a course texture and a flavor that doesn't match. If this awkwardness can be put up with, it does end up being sustaining.

    EII is kind of soft and creamy at first, but moves on to a crispier second course. Like mashed potatoes and baklava.

    ESTj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    An LSE friend recently told me about how our mutual friends asked him to help them move a couch to their new apartment, and he told them a bunch of reasons why he doesn't want to do it (hates moving, would hurt his lower back, our time is valuable/wouldn't even accept a $150/hour tutoring job if offered one). He then apologized to them and gave the asking friend $50 as a housewarming gift. It was kind of a random story to be told, and he didn't say anything else about it or ask me anything, but I think he just felt really bad about saying no, and he wanted me to confirm that he's not a bad person for saying no. I believe this was Fi-seeking.

    Bonus story: the mutual friends didn't realize LSE had sent them $50 (it was through Venmo) until I noticed they didn't seem to know and told them to check. They then reassured him that they don't mind, they understand, etc., and insisted on returning the $50. So hopefully LSE feels okay now.

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    LSEs have trouble basing decisions off their personal sentiments. They naturally gravitate towards making decisions based solely off a person's actions, and deciding if that was the 'best' way to go about doing it. Of course, by 'best', it is the individual's perception of what could be done. Doing so almost gives way to repressing their personal sentiments to the point of being completely forgotten about, or rather: unconscious. What they are unconsciously looking for is someone who is able to make decisions based off personal sentiments and unveil the innate potential of a person (aka, EII).

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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    @Economist

    I haven't met an LSE who would feel bad about any solid logical conclusion no matter who was put out or hurt, although they may act apologetic. If the LSE was lying so as to get out of work, then s/he may feel guilty. I don't think LSE are Fi-seeking; they're Fi-needing.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    @Economist

    I haven't met an LSE who would feel bad about any solid logical conclusion no matter who was put out or hurt, although they may act apologetic. If the LSE was lying so as to get out of work, then s/he may feel guilty. I don't think LSE are Fi-seeking; they're Fi-needing.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Um an LSE has a conscience and may worry about having hurt someone but may vent to someone else but not apologize to the original person

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    @Economist

    I haven't met an LSE who would feel bad about any solid logical conclusion no matter who was put out or hurt, although they may act apologetic. If the LSE was lying so as to get out of work, then s/he may feel guilty. I don't think LSE are Fi-seeking; they're Fi-needing.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Sounds like you've only met asshole LSEs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    ... What they are unconsciously looking for is someone who is able to make decisions based off personal sentiments and unveil the innate potential of a person (aka, EII).
    This has been my guess too yet it doesn't seem so obvious irl; also was wondering how EII would relate this info or probably just by show in action (since personal sentiments are less evident)?
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Um an LSE has a conscience and may worry about having hurt someone but may vent to someone else but not apologize to the original person
    I'm not suggesting that LSEs have no conscience or are assholes by any stretch of the imagination. To reach their logical conclusions, the sum total of their being including ethics usually goes into their decisions and when they think they have come to the most logical conclusion, they don't look back even though that decision may have hurt someone. They may feel sorry for the person but not the decision. They have regret when they realize that their logic was not solid.

    a.k.a. I/O


    a.k.a. I/O

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    unavailable Jake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    This has been my guess too yet it doesn't seem so obvious irl; also was wondering how EII would relate this info or probably just by show in action (since personal sentiments are less evident)?
    Yeah there's an unconscious affect the EII has on the LSE. Remember, this is all psychological so most of it you will only know once you see it happen.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    "How could I not love you? You did all this stuff for me!" Fi is love

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I think ethics is a learned quality; it's not innate in any type. What LSE needs from EII is an independent analysis of the consequences of LSE action, specifically the relative impact of this action upon others; however, LSEs will never think that they want this analysis although they will be grateful for it after the fact. The LSE needs restraint and refection, of which EII are masters. LSEs don't need listeners although they may like them; they need active participants in their rationalization processes, independent opinions and people who can cool the LSE's jets, which falls in the EII's purview..........

    a.k.a. I/O
    This is interesting, what do you think makes ethics different from other functions?
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    This has been my guess too yet it doesn't seem so obvious irl; also was wondering how EII would relate this info or probably just by show in action (since personal sentiments are less evident)?
    Personal sentiment is evident. Example "I feel that you are overreacting " that is expression of ones personal sentiment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    This is interesting, what do you think makes ethics different from other functions?
    Ethical and logical, from a Socionics perspective, really should refer to relative and absolute rationalization processes. I know far more ethical L-types than I do unethical ones and I've observed all sorts of E-types exhibiting unethical behaviour. I simply think that it's misleading to label an information element or any functional aspect of cognitive processing as the root of ethics. Raise someone in the right environment and one will create an ethical person regardless of type.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Ethical and logical, from a Socionics perspective, really should refer to relative and absolute rationalization processes. I know far more ethical L-types than I do unethical ones and I've observed all sorts of E-types exhibiting unethical behaviour. I simply think that it's misleading to label an information element or any functional aspect of cognitive processing as the root of ethics. Raise someone in the right environment and one will create an ethical person regardless of type.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Now you are confusing an ethical person from a person who determines ethics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Now you are confusing an ethical person from a person who determines ethics.
    So the information element is solely determining ethics and not also exhibiting ethically-oriented qualities in some functions? Do all types make a determination on ethics using a specific information element? How does one separate the determination of ethics from ethical qualities? Where does preaching ethics fit?

    a.k.a. I/O
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 03-22-2017 at 09:33 PM.

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    @Maritsa

    Fi comprises observations of relative determinations (results) but so does Fe; the only difference between the two is the route by which determinations were achieved. Current labeling of information elements implies that when a type does not have that element, that type doesn't do things associated with the element. Arbitrarily labeling a package of like-behaviours doesn't necessarily mean that the like-behaviours all originate from the same process. The flaw with both Socionics and MBTI is that their information elements (data classifications) do not in any way define function, but the verb "determine" does imply function. Function refers to the acquisition of, movement (flow) of and operations on data, which contribute to results that have been observed and classified.....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    I'm thinking about what you're writing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Ethical and logical, from a Socionics perspective, really should refer to relative and absolute rationalization processes. I know far more ethical L-types than I do unethical ones and I've observed all sorts of E-types exhibiting unethical behaviour. I simply think that it's misleading to label an information element or any functional aspect of cognitive processing as the root of ethics. Raise someone in the right environment and one will create an ethical person regardless of type.

    a.k.a. I/O
    I wondered when i asked that question whether it's an epistemological concern, but i thank you for your answer as I still try to see from my own perspective what the theory hinges on
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    I wondered when i asked that question whether it's an epistemological concern, but i thank you for your answer as I still try to see from my own perspective what the theory hinges on
    Just be aware that on this site, I'm likely viewed by many as totally out to lunch, confusing the issues and or preaching heresy. I do think that Socionics has classified types quite well but implying that information elements translate directly to actual functionality would be incorrect. One needs to look at a finer granularity and likely have a different mindset to determine what processes actually produce the information elements.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    So the information element is solely determining ethics and not also exhibiting ethically-oriented qualities in some functions? Do all types make a determination on ethics using a specific information element? How does one separate the determination of ethics from ethical qualities? Where does preaching ethics fit?

    a.k.a. I/O
    I have no idea
    I'd have to look at the specific workings across all types to determine this

    As far as preaching ethics ILI a Logical type can do it but again they have mental access to Fi and Fe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Just be aware that on this site, I'm likely viewed by many as totally out to lunch, confusing the issues and or preaching heresy.
    No
    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I do think that Socionics has classified types quite well but implying that information elements translate directly to actual functionality would be incorrect.

    I somewhat agree but not entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post

    One needs to look at a finer granularity and likely have a different mindset to determine what processes actually produce the information elements.

    a.k.a. I/O
    You're asking for a study that can't be done yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    .....You're asking for a study that can't be done yet
    I'm not asking but I'm certain that it wouldn't be rocket science; there might be an undergraduate paper or two out of it. However, psychology may not be the best field for the task.....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Just be aware that on this site, I'm likely viewed by many as totally out to lunch, confusing the issues and or preaching heresy. I do think that Socionics has classified types quite well but implying that information elements translate directly to actual functionality would be incorrect. One needs to look at a finer granularity and likely have a different mindset to determine what processes actually produce the information elements.

    a.k.a. I/O
    You don't sound heretic enough to me

    Are you I/O from Ganin's site? I used to post them sometimes as 'felafel'
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    You don't sound heretic enough to me

    Are you I/O from Ganin's site? I used to post them sometimes as 'felafel'
    Yes, I'm that I/O. Isn't an engineer writing on a Socionics site is akin to a Buddhist trying to advise the Vatican? Ganin seemed to invite outsider opinion - perhaps similarly to Pope Francis; too bad his site is inactive.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    This is the guy who has written most of the douchey, yet accurate "uncovered" articles on socionics.com.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    This is the guy who has written most of the douchey, yet accurate "uncovered" articles on socionics.com.
    I think of those articles as being "accurate" first, and colored by the "offend the other guy first and they won't get too close" attitude of an LII. Since my favorite sister is LII, it is an attitude that doesn't offend me. Lol. And the articles have very interesting elements of truth in them.

    I also like @Rebelondeck's theory of information elements being analogous to electrical input-output circuits in the brain. I don't think I fully understand what he's saying, and I have my own take on that, but I do think he's on to something real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I think of those articles as being "accurate" first
    Okay. Accurate, yet douchey then.

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