Fictional INTj and ESFj pairs in movies and literature

[Currere]

I've become interested in trying to find depictions of duality between LII/INTj and ESE/ESFj. So far, I've seen "I Love You, Man", which I think portrayed a male friendship between an ESE and an LII. I've also heard from Krig that "Pride and Prejudice" features an LII, but I can't remember if it's a Duality story. However, he did tell me tonight that "I Love You, Beth Cooper" is LII/ESE.

In your experience, have you come across any movies (most preferable), TV series, or books that portray duality between LII and ESE? It would be most appreciated!

[Krig the Viking]

Wasn't there a thread about this already? I don't remember, and am too lazy to go look.

"Garden State" is also a good LII-ESE movie.

And yeah, "I Love You Beth Cooper" is like somebody studied socionics, and then decided to do a movie about an LII and an ESE.

[Currere]

For some reason, I'd rather start a new thread about a subject if the last one is a while ago. Perhaps its from my limited knowledge and experience of forums, but I prefer making a new thread to bumping a really old one.

I'll have to look into "Garden State", because I remember you telling me this, but I must've forgot.

Also, I watched a little over half of Beth Cooper, and I see what you mean!

[electric sheep]

I argued for Sam and Frodo being ESE/LII here:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post562995

[Marie84]

For some reason, I don't recall seeing a lot of LII-ESE dual relationship portrayals, but I see a lot of SEI-ILE one...

Some possible ones, but I'm not certain as I'm basing a lot of this on memory, having not seen any of these in quite a while

John (LII) and Alicia (ESE) Nash - A Beautiful Mind
Harold (LII) and Ana (ESE) - Stranger than Fiction
Jamal (LII) and Latika (ESE or EIE) - Slumdog Millionaire
Chandler (LII) and Monica (ESE) - "Friends" TV

[buckland]

[QUOTE=Marie84;574971]For some reason, I don't recall seeing a lot of LII-ESE dual relationship portrayals, but I see a lot of SEI-ILE one...

Some possible ones, but I'm not certain as I'm basing a lot of this on memory, having not seen any of these in quite a while

John (LII) and Alicia (ESE) Nash - A Beautiful Mind
Harold (LII) and Ana (ESE) - Stranger than Fiction
Jamal (LII) and Latika (ESE or EIE) - Slumdog Millionaire
Chandler (LII) and Monica (ESE) - "Friends" TV[/QUOTE

I can't remember much of a beautiful mind, but I think of all of those that stranger than fiction is the closest to duality, though even there I think she is sei.

I think pride and prejudice is a good example. So is Emma, at least the one with gwyneth paltrow.

If anyone has seen just add water, that may also be included?

[electric sheep]

Luke Wilson and Maya Rudolph are and LII/ESE pair in "Idiocracy"

Are there any movies where the guy is the ESE and the girl is LII?

[Krig the Viking]

Are there any movies where the guy is the ESE and the girl is LII?

I don't know any movies, but the T.V. show "Bones" has this.

[Marie84]

LII females are under represented in Hollywood it seems

[Currere]

LII females are under represented in Hollywood it seems

Yeah. Even though I've only looked into both a little bit (interviews, mostly), I wouldn't immediately throw down the typing of Sigourney Weaver or Nicole Kidman as INTj.

[Krig the Viking]

Isn't Carrie-Ann Moss LII? I always thought the Matrix was supposed to portray an LII-LII relationship.

Keanu Reeves always tries to play LII roles. Don't know if he's LII himself, but he plays LII roles. Which, come to think of it, wouldn't that make Speed an LII-ESE movie?

[Logos]

Isn't Carrie-Ann Moss LII? I always thought the Matrix was supposed to portray an LII-LII relationship.

Keanu Reeves always tries to play LII roles. Don't know if he's LII himself, but he plays LII roles. Which, come to think of it, wouldn't that make Speed an LII-ESE movie?

Really? Neo did not strike me as an LII. He seemed more Delta NF.

[electric sheep]

Really? Neo did not strike me as an LII. He seemed more Delta NF.

Neo is a LII 9w1!!!!!!!! He's a computer hacker. I always thought Neo and Trinity were LII/ESE, but I don't have a strong argument for it. She's a 6w7 though.
You have a real blind spot for that kind of thing. Not all 9s are delta NFs. Didn't you think Frodo was delta NF too?

wouldn't that make Speed an LII-ESE movie?

Sandra Bullock always plays ESEs it seems.

[Logos]

Neo is a LII 9w1!!!!!!!!

The use of exclamation marks does not make you anymore correct.

You have a real blind spot for that kind of thing. Not all 9s are delta NFs. Didn't you think Frodo was delta NF too?

As opposed to what? Reading all characters as belonging to your type?

[electric sheep]

I've given up trying to convince you of anything. Take it or leave it. You have a one-dimensional view of LIIs.

Trinity was really temperamental, reactive, loyal, and protective. She's not really expressive like Sandra Bullock, but I don't think she was played by an ESE which could interfere with her typing.

[Logos]

I've given up trying to convince you of anything. Take it or leave it. You have a one-dimensional view of LIIs.

Given up already? When was the first time you tried to convince me of anything? I think that you, and sometimes Krig, have the tendency to over-type people and characters as LII, perhaps from an unrecognized personal attachment to these characters. My skepticism does not come from a one-dimensional view of LIIs, but from a genuine desire for approaching typing with a critically detached eye dedicated to accuracy. I refuse to take all typings at mere face value. I will critically question even typings that I accept.

Trinity was really temperamental, reactive, loyal, and protective. She's not really expressive like Sandra Bullock, but I don't think she was played by an ESE which could interfere with her typing.

I can accept Trinity as a possible LII, but I am more skeptical about Neo.

And yes, I am unconvinced of Frodo being an LII. I am sorry if I refuse to acquiesce to your self-grandiose wisdom.

[Krig the Viking]

Really? Neo did not strike me as an LII. He seemed more Delta NF.

EII? Certainly not IEE. I don't know, I don't really remember any scenes with strong Fi in it, but maybe I missed something.

The main reason I type Neo as LII is that his whole character arc in the three movies is related to the Buddhist concept of freeing oneself from desire and attachment to achieve a state of enlightenment. This strikes me as a more Ti thing than Fi, involving the suppression of emotional attachment.

Given up already? When was the first time you tried to convince me of anything? I think that you, and sometimes Krig, have the tendency to over-type people and characters as LII, perhaps from an unrecognized personal attachment to these characters. My skepticism does not come from a one-dimensional view of LIIs, but from a genuine desire for approaching typing with a critically detached eye dedicated to accuracy. I refuse to take all typings at mere face value. I will critically question even typings that I accept.

Heh, and meanwhile, my own concern is that you may be over-correcting in your desire to be objective, and tending to give more validity to the typings you don't "want" the characters to be. I've had this problem myself, in the past. There are two kinds of bias: What you hope the answer will be, and what you fear the answer will be.

Of course, that's exactly the sort of thing I would say if I was being too hopeful in my own typings, so really, the only way to resolve this is the usual way: rational analysis of each others' supporting evidence.

And yes, I am unconvinced of Frodo being an LII. I am sorry if I refuse to acquiesce to your self-grandiose wisdom.

Yeah, in the movies he definitely didn't seem LII. I haven't read the books in a long time, though, he may have been LII there. I do remember being slightly disappointed that Frodo seemed kind of wishy-washy in the movies, as compared to the books.

[electric sheep]

Given up already? When was the first time you tried to convince me of anything? I think that you, and sometimes Krig, have the tendency to over-type people and characters as LII, perhaps from an unrecognized personal attachment to these characters. My skepticism does not come from a one-dimensional view of LIIs, but from a genuine desire for approaching typing with a critically detached eye dedicated to accuracy. I refuse to take all typings at mere face value. I will critically question even typings that I accept.

I'll accept my own explanation that I am a 3w2 and can relate to a large number of people, including movie characters, whereas you are a 5w6 and can relate to very few people. I'm sure this inability to relate to people influences the way you type people much more than you are willing to admit. You can't relate to people, so you cling to rigid definitions of people and types and miss so much in doing so. But I'm not really claiming my method is better at this point, I'm only trying to add some dimensions to the LII character.

I wasn't really going by the movies for Frodo, fyi. That's why I quoted the book in the argument I linked to above.

[Logos]

I'll accept my own explanation that I am a 3w2 and can relate to a large number of people, including movie characters, whereas you are a 5w6 and can relate to very few people. I'm sure this inability to relate to people influences the way you type people much more than you are willing to admit. You can't relate to people, so you cling to rigid definitions of people and types and miss so much in doing so. But I'm not really claiming my method is better at this point, I'm only trying to add some dimensions to the LII character.

I am not sure that I cling rigid definitions of people and types anymore than you do, not unless you can point to such examples. I do relate to people while typing, but when I do so, I ask myself why that is the case and then set about to identify those points of association. As an LII, I know that there is plenty of dimensions to the LII, but I am uncertain whether or not the full dimensions of other types, especially of ethical types are fully appreciated or understood.

EII? Certainly not IEE. I don't know, I don't really remember any scenes with strong Fi in it, but maybe I missed something.

The main reason I type Neo as LII is that his whole character arc in the three movies is related to the Buddhist concept of freeing oneself from desire and attachment to achieve a state of enlightenment. This strikes me as a more Ti thing than Fi, involving the suppression of emotional attachment.

It may be more Si > Se in general, as Se deals the closest with acquiring of material possessions. Fi merely helps to define what it is that you desire.

ETA: Also keep in mind Neo's interactions with the Architect (a probable LII > ILE).

Heh, and meanwhile, my own concern is that you may be over-correcting in your desire to be objective, and tending to give more validity to the typings you don't "want" the characters to be. I've had this problem myself, in the past. There are two kinds of bias: What you hope the answer will be, and what you fear the answer will be.

Of course, that's exactly the sort of thing I would say if I was being too hopeful in my own typings, so really, the only way to resolve this is the usual way: rational analysis of each others' supporting evidence.

And I do think that is a valid criticism of my method.

[Marie84]

Yeah. Even though I've only looked into both a little bit (interviews, mostly), I wouldn't immediately throw down the typing of Sigourney Weaver or Nicole Kidman as INTj.

Yah Nicole is most likely LII, not too sure about Weaver, she may be an LSE.
I think Naomi Watts, Ashley Judd and Christina Ricci may be LII's, too

Even so, most of these LII actresses generally don't play LII characters, but I could be wrong of course

Isn't Carrie-Ann Moss LII? I always thought the Matrix was supposed to portray an LII-LII relationship.

Keanu Reeves always tries to play LII roles. Don't know if he's LII himself, but he plays LII roles. Which, come to think of it, wouldn't that make Speed an LII-ESE movie?

Carrie-Ann LII yep, go Canada!

[Not A Communist Shill]

Frodo didn't exactly seem like an obvious LII in either the books or the films...and after typing characters from films and books over the years as well as seeing people type characters from films and books over the years from seemingly scant and often contradictory 'information', I wouldn't so easily type Neo as an LII either.

[Krig the Viking]

It may be more Si > Se in general, as Se deals the closest with acquiring of material possessions. Fi merely helps to define what it is that you desire.

Yeah, that may be part of it, but think it's more than just the renunciation of material possessions, it's the renunciation of all forms of desire. To be honest, I doubt it could be boiled down to any one element, but the theme of "detachment" just seems LII to me.

ETA: Also keep in mind Neo's interactions with the Architect (a probable LII > ILE).

What, specifically displayed Fi there? The only thing I can think of is his choice to save Trinity instead of saving the world, but to me that seems like the kind of choice anyone who was in love could have made.

And I do think that is a valid criticism of my method.

I speak from personal experience, is all.

Carrie-Ann LII yep, go Canada!

Canadians FTW!

[Logos]

Yeah, that may be part of it, but think it's more than just the renunciation of material possessions, it's the renunciation of all forms of desire. To be honest, I doubt it could be boiled down to any one element, but the theme of "detachment" just seems LII to me.

What, specifically displayed Fi there? The only thing I can think of is his choice to save Trinity instead of saving the world, but to me that seems like the kind of choice anyone who was in love could have made.

But that's hardly a renunciation of desire, is it?

[krieger]

Last I saw Carrie-Ann Moss in a film was in Memento, in which she seemed far too confident in/appreciative of Ni/Se to be an INTj. I would have guessed she was ENFj from that appearance.

Her role involved a lot of shouting, manipulation and power-gaming.

A sample:


(the guy is a candidate INTj, imo, btw)

[Krig the Viking]

But that's hardly a renunciation of desire, is it?

Well, no, that comes later, in his "Because I choose to" scene in the third movie. Making a "pure choice", unaffected by desire, is the point there.

Actually, a thought just occurred to me. I think I finally understand the purpose of that scene with the Architect: Neo had to choose between two options, each of which he very much desired to do. In effect, the two conflicting desires cancelled each other out, leaving Neo with something closely resembling a "pure choice". It was one more step on his path to enlightenment.

[Marie84]

Last I saw Carrie-Ann Moss in a film was in Memento, in which she seemed far too confident in/appreciative of Ni/Se to be an INTj. I would have guessed she was ENFj from that appearance.

Her role involved a lot of shouting, manipulation and power-gaming.

She's acting. Not saying that she is in fact an LII, rather using roles to type actors is not really reliable.

(the guy is a candidate INTj, imo, btw)

Based on this article I found linked to his wiki page, he's probably an SLI

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

lmao @ everybody's perceptions on what Se is. also that bitch was hilariously campy but evil is best served cold, not hot like that.

[krieger]

She's acting. Not saying that she is in fact an LII, rather using roles to type actors is not really reliable.

People have been basing their typings of her on roles so far so my argument isn't worth any less than theirs. Also, it takes something more than just goodwill to act like that. The person needs to fit the role. My estimation is that the average INTj wouldn't to the extent she does.

Based on this article I found linked to his wiki page, he's probably an SLI

That also makes sense. Like I said, just a candidate.

[Marie84]

Recently saw my first, good, portrayal of LII female and ESE male duality.
It's a 80's comedy called "Coming To America". Eddie Murphy as Prince Akeem (ESE) and his love interest Lisa (LII)

[Froody Blue Gem]

Arthur Weasley and Molly Weasley from Harry Potter
Nick Wilde and Judy Hopps from Zootopia (Well, I type Nick as ILE but close enough...)
These are a few of the examples that I can think of.