what's up with all the esi hate?

[wasp]

i've been typed eii on 16t, but i relate to aspects of the esi profile as well, so i decided to do some digging on the two types to distinguish the main differences between them, and that's when i came across the esi uncovered profile. it made me uncomfortable, to say the least, which is expected, given the purpose of the profiles - but it felt much harsher than the other ones. so i decided to read the more neutral esi profile, from the same site, but i noticed the same thing there as well. i didn't find anything particularly positive in the profile to counter the negativity presented in the uncovered profile, aside from their protectiveness and occasional tidiness. i thought i was being biased at first, but, after doing some more digging, there is a clear difference between how esi are portrayed vs how other types are portayed.

i like to think there's some good in everybody and, even if it turns out i'm not esi, i know a few confirmed ones, and i don't like how they're portrayed in type profiles. my least favorite would probably be stratiyevskaya's description(s), which is odd, considering she herself is one. what kind of strength is, "esi are good at picking out flaws and faults"?

(skip here for questions) where does the negative stigma come from, exactly? is it an issue of others mistyping people who are *insert negative stereotypes that may or may not be reflected in reality here* as esi, or is my mind playing tricks on me? there's a possibility i'm seeing something that isn't there, but i don't think so.

[Singu]

It was written by an ILE. The uncovered profiles aren't official Socionics stuff or anything.

Stratiyevskaya is ESI herself, so I don't think it's biased. Well actually, I do think it's biased or at least it's quite subjective. She goes really easy on the NFs I think.

Edit: Well actually, it wasn't written by an ILE, it was written by I/O. I think you're talking about this:

http://www.socionics.com/articles/unisfj.html

[wasp]

It was written by an ILE. The uncovered profiles aren't official Socionics stuff or anything.

haha *facepalm* ok, that explains it. being conflictors and whatnot.

Stratiyevskaya is ESI herself, so I don't think it's biased.

yeah, i didn't think she was being biased. it was more that i found the esi profile a little too negative for my taste. it kind of took me by surprise, shivers down my spine and everything. so did her quadra complexes articles. you'd think she'd have nicer things to say about a type she herself identifies as, but maybe she views those traits as positive traits and it ultimately comes down to a difference of opinion? i don't know, but i've noticed a negative bias on this forum as well.

[Singu]

I think the Quadra Complexes are really terrible (in a good way) for all the quadras. I guess that's what the Gammas are good at, especially the negativists who are super critical of everything.

So I really appreciate the Quadra Complexes, because it really gets down to the bottom of it without any of the idealization and fluffyness that you might see from even the Alpha NTs.

[wasp]

I think the Quadra Complexes are really terrible (in a good way) for all the quadras. I guess that's what the Gammas are good at I guess, especially the negativists who are super critical of everything.

they're humorous, i suppose, but i was surprised when i couldn't find articles detailing each quadra's positive traits.

[silke]

they're humorous, i suppose, but i was surprised when i couldn't find articles detailing each quadra's positive traits.

They are detailed on Wikisocion: http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Alpha_Quadra Stratiyevskaya's essays are an addition and an alternative perspective to what has been up there already.

[GuavaDrunk]

Might be culture too, the personality type stuff I've seen from US authors (so mostly MBTI) seems to solidly emphasise every little positive they can find, which is to my knowledge not at all a pattern found in Russia/Ukraine. They seem more about 'life is tough and absurd, I shall drink/party/make poetry to it!'.

[wasp]

They are detailed on Wikisocion: http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Alpha_Quadra Stratiyevskaya's essays are an addition and an alternative perspective to what has been up there already.

i've read those descriptions before but i don't think it's quite the same. thanks for the link though.

Might be culture too, the personality type stuff I've seen from US authors (so mostly MBTI) seems to solidly emphasise every little positive they can find, which is to my knowledge not at all a pattern found in Russia/Ukraine. They seem more about 'life is tough and absurd, I shall drink/party/make poetry to it!'.

that would make sense. would sociotype.com be a better source for positive (or more neutral) descriptions? i found their type descriptions more telling than condemning, in comparison to the ones written by russian authors.

[GuavaDrunk]

@paranoid: no idea Go with your gut?

[Rebelondeck]

I wrote the uncovered article after having had personal and business relationships with many; I've been most attracted to this type over my lifetime, which is supposed to be odd for an LII according to Socionics theory. According to my theory, superego is second only to dual. I certainly don't hate ESI by any stretch of the imagination but I have noted some fairly consistent inner struggles among most of them. If I were to write an uncovered profile for my type, it would be far more frightening. I tend to think that you are ESI because I found that this type routinely says that my article espouses hate, which I think relates to some of their potential insecurities.

a.k.a. I/O

[Grendel]

I agree. Let's move on to IEI hate.

[crazymaisy]

I agree. Let's move on to IEI hate.

Nope, IEI are my Kindred, dear lovely Kindred.

[DadsHome]

I think the ESI uncovered profile presents a sense of truth that none other does. I believe ESI is not a strong strict person like many other profiles suggest. They are constantly overwhelmed with anxiety and stress from day to day life which they can barely keep up with. They are nice and non-judgemental in person but will share negative sentiments about you with their very close friends and spouse. They also tend to be hedonists and will constantly seek pleasureful activities and fun experiences. They are avoidant of arguments with friends but will fight to the death with a family member. They are also not loyal spouses that will never cheat, this is a myth.

[wasp]

I wrote the uncovered article after having had personal and business relationships with many; I've been most attracted to this type over my lifetime, which is supposed to be odd for an LII according to Socionics theory. According to my theory, superego is second only to dual. I certainly don't hate ESI by any stretch of the imagination but I have noted some fairly consistent inner struggles among most of them. If I were to write an uncovered profile for my type, it would be far more frightening. I tend to think that you are ESI because I found that this type routinely says that my article espouses hate, which I think relates to some of their potential insecurities.

a.k.a. I/O

haha i think you'd have to read the regular esi profile to get a better understanding of why i made this thread. yours was definitely harsh, even in comparison to the other uncovered profiles, but it wasn't inaccurate. i thought it was quite well-written, actually. it just seemed too motivated by personal feelings, if that makes sense, like something you'd write post break-up. what do you like about them, if you don't mind me asking? interesting that you're attracted to them.

yeah, i could be esi. one of the few things stopping me from identifying as one is my affinity for iles. hnnng

on a sidenote: why do only 8 or so types have uncovered profiles? the sle one is ridonkulous, too.

I think the ESI uncovered profile presents a sense of truth that none other does. I believe ESI is not a strong strict person like many other profiles suggest. They are constantly overwhelmed with anxiety and stress from day to day life which they can barely keep up with. They are nice and non-judgemental in person but will share negative sentiments about you with their very close friends and spouse. They also tend to be hedonists and will constantly seek pleasureful activities and fun experiences. They are avoidant of arguments with friends but will fight to the death with a family member. They are also not loyal spouses that will never cheat, this is a myth.

hey dad. i don't think they're strict either. i don't buy the, "strict, controlled, objective, passes judgment on everyone, won't let anyone get away with any irresponsibility!" descriptions at all, at least not in western society, but i relate to the constant anxiety, though i push it down most of the time. however, i don't relate to the two-faced behavior, cheating, or arguing with family members (or anyone, unless it's a debate) either, but i do relate to being a hedonist! i'm wondering if the short description you've written here could apply to some of the ones i know personally.

but i agree that the descriptions are not reflected in reality, and i stand by the opinion that there's a disproportionate amount of hate directed towards them, and it made me wonder if people just type people they dislike as esi, based on the inaccurate descriptions listed above, but i see a similar stigma surrounding iles, which is funny because they're conflictors. in general, though, the sensor types get the worst of it. this seems to be the case in most typology communities.

[DadsHome]

@paranoid "i don't relate to the two-faced behavior, cheating, or arguing with family members"

My ESI gf is willing to argue with me and her sister but won't say a thing to other people who spew nonsense. I like to argue with her(I don't believe in just accepting information from anyone and it's fun spar once in awhile) so maybe she learned to fight back. Her sister is super pushy and controlling, to the point of being stupid and deserves to be shut down once in awhile(I think she is SEE but not certain). I think the two-faced behavior was learned from living in a big city(NYC), it's quite common for people to talk crap and cheat, I would even go as far to say it's encouraged especially by young people and their culture.

[Skepsis]

Nope, IEI are my Kindred, dear lovely Kindred.

I know not why, but I think a heart pierced by a dagger and dripping with blood, should be an available icon. Kindred or star crossed lovers. I do not know!

[Rebelondeck]

............ it just seemed too motivated by personal feelings, if that makes sense, like something you'd write post break-up. what do you like about them, if you don't mind me asking?......yeah, i could be esi. one of the few things stopping me from identifying as one is my affinity for iles.........on a sidenote: why do only 8 or so types have uncovered profiles?.......

Not much I do is motivated by personal feelings; most of my break-ups have likely been due to that fact. I like them because I seem to know how to reach them and they seem to innately understand from where I'm coming, and they possess many capabilities that I do not. I co-exist best with my dual but I connect best with my superego.

I cannot see ESI or EII ever having lasting relationships with ILEs; they rarely have similar objectives in life and can't seem to agree on priority or methodology. Libido will only get them through the first year or two.....

I have no idea why only 8; I only posted to the site and I wrote as things presented themselves.

a.k.a. I/O

[wasp]

@paranoid "i don't relate to the two-faced behavior, cheating, or arguing with family members"

My ESI gf is willing to argue with me and her sister but won't say a thing to other people who spew nonsense. I like to argue with her(I don't believe in just accepting information from anyone and it's fun spar once in awhile) so maybe she learned to fight back. Her sister is super pushy and controlling, to the point of being stupid and deserves to be shut down once in awhile(I think she is SEE but not certain). I think the two-faced behavior was learned from living in a big city(NYC), it's quite common for people to talk crap and cheat, I would even go as far to say it's encouraged especially by young people and their culture.

oh i see. you've attributed these behaviors to esi but then you go on to explain why they are that way and the factors mentioned are environmental, not based on cognition. explain plz. but i agree that western culture (i'm making an assumption here) is dominated by debauchery and promiscuity. i think it's cool but i can see how the vast differences between our culture vs russian culture may tamper with the descriptions. rather, how the types play out in real life.

Not much I do is motivated by personal feelings; most of my break-ups have likely been due to that fact. I like them because I seem to know how to reach them and they seem to innately understand from where I'm coming, and they possess many capabilities that I do not. I co-exist best with my dual but I connect best with my superego.

I cannot see ESI or EII ever having lasting relationships with ILEs; they rarely have similar objectives in life and can't seem to agree on priority or methodology. Libido will only get them through the first year or two.....

I have no idea why only 8; I only posted to the site and I wrote as things presented themselves.

a.k.a. I/O

good stuff. is hitting it off with your superego common? because i've read the opposite, or maybe it was that they hit it off initially but then the interest from both sides eventually wanes due to god-knows-what factors. i forget.

oh... most of my close friends are iles though. it's the type i'm most consistently drawn/attracted to.

[Rebelondeck]

........ is hitting it off with your superego common?

Yes, for me and many pairs I've known both in business and socially. Our Achilles heel is not recognizing the need for communication.

Eps seem to have an innate ability to draw people into their world so be aware that you may be under the influence of gravity rather than connection.....


a.k.a. I/O

[wasp]

Eps seem to have an innate ability to draw people into their world so be aware that you may be under the influence of gravity rather than connection.....


a.k.a. I/O

like stockholm syndrome?

[wasp]

no, that's not stockholm syndrome, but i agree it's hard to tell where you stand with ep types. sort of like, "i can't tell if we're really connecting and you feel it, too, or if you're one of those charming types that everyone hits it off with, ergo this is just a day in the life for you..."

[Adam Strange]

If some ESI's hit it off with ILE's, it is probably because they are seeking to know facts (Te dual seeking), and are not fully sensitive to the fact that ILE's often hate to come to a conclusion (Ne).

[wasp]

If some ESI's hit it off with ILE's, it is probably because they are seeking to know facts (Te dual seeking), and are not fully sensitive to the fact that ILE's often hate to come to a conclusion (Ne).

o...

no, i haven't experienced irritation over that either. and who seeks facts, of all things? can't i just google those?

[Rebelondeck]

If some ESI's hit it off with ILE's, it is probably because they are seeking to know facts (Te dual seeking), and are not fully sensitive to the fact that ILE's often hate to come to a conclusion (Ne).

I think that ESIs seek insight and context more than facts; they are quite competent at finding and dealing with facts. They're not that good at connecting the dots or seeing the big picture, and sometimes make bad decisions or become fearful because of this.

a.k.a. I/O

[Alomoes]

Intriguing. Makes sense, as I'd be a poor person to come to for pure facts, and I'd think the LIE would be the similar, except more focused on the action or the goal.

Although I'm not saying I don't know a lot of facts, just that the way my mind works, I have trouble recalling specifics at times.

[Syynth]

ESIs suffered the same fate as ESTJs in MBTI.

For example:

Can't figure out someone's type? Does this person occasionally seem judgmental?

If you answered yes to both of the previous questions, they must be an ESI.

[FDG]

. They are avoidant of arguments with friends but will fight to the death with a family member.

Some of them are like this, others do exactly the opposite (i.e. avoid arguing with family members because it would damage their relationship), I don´t believe there´s a real pattern.

Anyway I believe the uncovered article was actually fairly sweet compared to many of other uncovered articles.

[DadsHome]

Some of them are like this, others do exactly the opposite (i.e. avoid arguing with family members because it would damage their relationship), I don´t believe there´s a real pattern.

Anyway I believe the uncovered article was actually fairly sweet compared to many of other uncovered articles.

I agree with you in a general sense, I do not think they are aggressive with people. I do think they can be in certain situations though(as should anyone). I framed my above comment wrong, I really meant to suggest it's incredibly rare for them to be pushy(family and spouse are extremely close relationships compared to common relationships like acquaintance and friendship). I do not understand why in almost all ESI articles they are portrayed as strict and pushy, it's bullshit and has probably caused so many people confusion.

And this article is definitely soft in comparison to the uncovered articles. I think the IEE uncovered article is brutal ha

[Suzaku]

Hmm. I've been told I'm overly bold and blunt/straightforward. But I'm on the spectrum and sometimes never STFU around people I like.

So I always ask people to tell me to stop if I don't shut up or like what I'm doing. And tell me why. That's all that's needed.

I also got INTP on MBTI and that's weird.

I know an LIE and I'm like tell me I'm being blunt or annoying or something and he's like no I love your forwardness.

[FDG]

I agree with you in a general sense, I do not think they are aggressive with people. I do think they can be in certain situations though(as should anyone). I framed my above comment wrong, I really meant to suggest it's incredibly rare for them to be pushy(family and spouse are extremely close relationships compared to common relationships like acquaintance and friendship). I do not understand why in almost all ESI articles they are portrayed as strict and pushy, it's bullshit and has probably caused so many people confusion.

Yeah, I agree with that. The only situation when they're a bit strict is when they're teachers or trainers, imho.

[Skepsis]

.

[ashlesha]

sometimes im blunt/whatever but its not because i have a goal to be, its just the Fe/Ne isn't there to dance around it or make it sound better. i still give a shit and i think that comes across to most people. its not like a nurse ratchet stereotype, except maybe to some Fe valuers who don't really know me. I'm persistent when i want my way, but its more over the long haul and not immediate forceful "pushy" energy. if i like somebody and/or see them as vulnerable in some way i find it difficult to be too hard on them unless I'm worked up or something.

[Beautiful sky]

If some ESI's hit it off with ILE's, it is probably because they are seeking to know facts (Te dual seeking), and are not fully sensitive to the fact that ILE's often hate to come to a conclusion (Ne).

hum...IDK about that

[Alomoes]

Hmm. I've been told I'm overly bold and blunt/straightforward. But I'm on the spectrum and sometimes never STFU around people I like.

So I always ask people to tell me to stop if I don't shut up or like what I'm doing. And tell me why. That's all that's needed.

I also got INTP on MBTI and that's weird.

I know an LIE and I'm like tell me I'm being blunt or annoying or something and he's like no I love your forwardness.

I have the same issue, even though I don't know any LIEs personally, it sounds nice.

[noaydi]

In france, ISFj is another word for Cop in civil

[noaydi]

which is odd, considering she herself is one.

Fi neuroticism.

[The Reality Denialist]

Nothing wrong with them. At closer distance our views seem to collide. OTOH when you provide Te to them then it becomes as with the other base bit overbearing to cater as they want learn it and since my ways are not standard it all gets very jumbled. SEI just says: he is just some sort of genius with this.

EIIs are big ones towards knowledge not so much ESIs.

In Gulenko's model LSE and ILE have same sort of approach towards Te where as LIE and SLE are more entrepreneurial. If you want give it credit.

[Myst]

i've been typed eii on 16t, but i relate to aspects of the esi profile as well, so i decided to do some digging on the two types to distinguish the main differences between them, and that's when i came across the esi uncovered profile. it made me uncomfortable, to say the least, which is expected, given the purpose of the profiles - but it felt much harsher than the other ones. so i decided to read the more neutral esi profile, from the same site, but i noticed the same thing there as well. i didn't find anything particularly positive in the profile to counter the negativity presented in the uncovered profile, aside from their protectiveness and occasional tidiness. i thought i was being biased at first, but, after doing some more digging, there is a clear difference between how esi are portrayed vs how other types are portayed.

i like to think there's some good in everybody and, even if it turns out i'm not esi, i know a few confirmed ones, and i don't like how they're portrayed in type profiles. my least favorite would probably be stratiyevskaya's description(s), which is odd, considering she herself is one. what kind of strength is, "esi are good at picking out flaws and faults"?

(skip here for questions) where does the negative stigma come from, exactly? is it an issue of others mistyping people who are *insert negative stereotypes that may or may not be reflected in reality here* as esi, or is my mind playing tricks on me? there's a possibility i'm seeing something that isn't there, but i don't think so.

I see nothing especially negative in ESI profiles. Which parts particularly bothered you?

[Skepsis]

When I think of ESI, I do not think of the stereotypical female Nazi kink master or brute police officer, although I know they exist. I tend to see a creative, but realistic person, who is nice and tries to be fair and just. Creative ESIs are far more interesting and intriguing than the non-creative one. They have a more focused creativity. It's a different flavor than the EII creativity, which is more scattered and idealistic.

[Sol]

"esi are good at picking out flaws and faults"

They are good to annoy with criticism. They think not well to find deep issues, but they use what is on the surface.
If ESI thinks you as friend or wishes to care about you (cause he/she likes you) - he will try to help you to make better relations by criticism. Like base T types care by saying people what is correct and reasonable.
One girl ESI said she talked ok in Internet with other one girl. Then as they've become better friends they decided to do talking IRL too. The result - the 2nd girl said like "you like to criticize too much about moral/relations". And they have stopped IRL communication and reduced Internet one.
The situation was - ESI cares about people by their Fi and do it rather directly and rude.

Is it bad? For LIE - it's best, ILI - ok. For LSE - eh.. we prefer that was in more tender manner, lesser directly, but still hold it (at 1st we ignore as the format is "wrong", then may think about what was said and may agree later). Other types this annoys in more degree. But mainly the problems you get only when ESI thinks you as "close human" to care about you, he does this like fosters a child.

ESI are not worse than other types from objective side. For LSE they are very kind, pleasant, polite and cute people, generally, which sometimes pass the borders.

When I think of ESI, I do not think of the stereotypical female Nazi kink master or brute police officer, although I know they exist.

Nazi style relates to beta only. ESI have high compassion and polite.