Fe fakeness vs Fi fakeness

[Singu]

Obviously, anyone can be fake, but how they go about it is a little different depending on which functions you value.

Fe types fake their emotions, enthusiasm or interest, and Fi types fake their closeness, being your "friend" to get what they want. For whatever the reason, extroverts are more likely to be "fake" than introverts.

IXFxs can also be fake, but supposedly they're the "sincere" types, so they're more likely to emphasize on emotional or relational sincerity.

EXTxs are kind of clueless, so they can fake both, but more pronounced on either Fe or Fi that they value.

IXTs are just hopeless, so they don't even try to be fake. At best, they use some form of emotional manipulation. But ISTxs are slightly better at it than INTxs.

I would not necessarily say that being "fake" is a bad thing. It can be the lubricant that grease the wheel, the glue that holds society together. EXFx types often make people feel good by being "nice to everybody", "everybody's friend", and that's not really a bad thing.

[Exodus]

Obviously, anyone can be fake

Why is that obvious?

Fe types fake their emotions, enthusiasm or interest, and Fi types fake their closeness, being your "friend" to get what they want. For whatever the reason, extroverts are more likely to be "fake" than introverts.

I would agree with that generally, but this is SeFi in particular.

Si valuers can also seem deceptive in wanting to avoid talking about unpleasant topics but this is less likely to be described as "fake" per se.

[chrys]

Faking relations sounds so much more difficult lol

[Singu]

Why is that obvious?

Because... "it's not type related". You can't say that which functions make you fake, it's just how you go about it that's different.

[Exodus]

Because... "it's not type related". You can't say that which functions make you fake, it's just how you go about it that's different.

Are you saying that because it's a negative trait? Negative traits are not automatically unrelated to type. It doesn't make any sense to say that e.g. Ne has anything to do with being fake.

[Singu]

Are you saying that because it's a negative trait? Negative traits are not automatically unrelated to type. It doesn't make any sense to say that e.g. Ne has anything to do with being fake.

I can't think of any type that can't "fake". Actually a funny thing... IXTps often act more like Fe types than IXTjs.

It also depends on what we mean by "fake". If by fake we mean "lying", then lying is not related to any functions. If by fake we mean more emotional or relational fakeness, then Fe or Fi types have a much easier time, just because they have access to so much information and they know exactly what they're doing, and how. But just because it's easier for them doesn't mean that they do it, and just because they're bad at it doesn't stop them from trying.

And then we may even stop understanding what "fake" even means... how do we define fake. I think all we can say is that there are general trends of such things, but they're not absolute.

[Beautiful sky]

I'm actually very sincere

[Singu]

I'm actually very sincere

I'm sure you are...

[Beautiful sky]

I'm sure you are...

Here's an example of SEE fake: being nice to a friend only in the attempt to steal their significant other and still continuing to act as though they did nothing wrong only to seem like they are a good person.

That's being fake in a relationship way.

I would mind my own business if I met someone who is in a relationship with someone else

[Aylen]

I can fake being happy, or at the very least, wear a neutral expression and respond in a way that is appropriate to the situation, even if I am dying inside. It depends on the stakes involved. I don't like bringing other people down. If I am around kids I can fake enthusiasm for their sake. I would rather just stay home if I am not feeling up for being around people but some things you can't hide from. I can fake "not caring", about someone or something, when I care deeply but not really the opposite. Even if I cannot fake caring about someone, I can still be kind to them. I don't consider that being fake though. I can't fake love, empathy or compassion.

[Chae]

Faking relations sounds so much more difficult lol

Since it's your PoLR. I do that for breakfast As much as I can't fake being super coherent and accurate

[Singu]

Here's an example of SEE fake: being nice to a friend only in the attempt to steal their significant other and still continuing to act as though they did nothing wrong only to seem like they are a good person.

That's being fake in a relationship way.

I would mind my own business if I met someone who is in a relationship with someone else

I think SEEs can be like that... they use their Fi to juggle many relationships.

[Singu]

I can fake being happy, or at the very least, wear a neutral expression and respond in a way that is appropriate to the situation, even if I am dying inside. It depends on the stakes involved. I don't like bringing other people down. If I am around kids I can fake enthusiasm for their sake. I would rather just stay home if I am not feeling up for being around people but some things you can't hide from. I can fake "not caring", about someone or something, when I care deeply but not really the opposite. Even if I cannot fake caring about someone, I can still be kind to them. I don't consider that being fake though. I can't fake love, empathy or compassion.

Hmm as an IEI.. I have the potential and ability to fake virtually anything... but it just takes too much energy to fake in the long-term. And I'd feel guilty about it. I would probably say a lot of white lies... But fake love... probably not. I would have harder time faking happiness and pretending that I'm happy...

[summerprincess]

I can't fake happiness it shows soo easily on
me when I'm pissed. People who fake friendships piss me off a lot more than people who fake emotions/enthusiasm..but both are utterly annoying. I'd rather everyone is honest to a fault about how they feel. It's easier and less disappointing for everyone. For all my faults I am generally a very sincere person, and this is agreed upon by everyone who knows me.

[Saoirse]

I can fake neither emotions/enthusiasm or closeness, lol. I actually don't think any of the EIIs I know could possibly fake closeness, especially to get what they want. I think the more mature ones of us have learned how to fake interest though. We just want our conversational partners to be happy! And it can be a way to become closer. For us, closeness is more of an end goal, not a tool.

[Nehtaro]

I think you have it backwards.
Fe = Internal Dynamics of Objects
Fi = Internal Statics of Fields
Fe-egos are more concerned with negatively affecting the Fe states of others: they hate to make others uncomfortable (unless fighting for a principle), they avoid sending out negative energy in group environments, etc. as this is disruptive and obnoxious and purposeless/wasteful, it just drives people apart and lowers the total energy (less people = less energy = less power/utility/potential for action). Fe-valuers also have the implicit belief that meaning is placed on the individual from outside as a result of one's Ti-connections (group identity, sometimes but not always cultural or ideological).

Fi-egos are more concerned with negatively affecting their Fi-connections with others: they hate to become disliked by individuals as it is implied that it is a character assessment. Fi-doms adhere to strict personal morals in order to be a 'good' person, to be blameless--they are the judgers, not the judged. Fi-creatives follow personal morals as well, but generally more permissive, in order to seek out a greater number of (potentially) valuable connections. Fi-valuers also have the implicit belief that meaning comes from within, is 'generated' by the individual in a way where it must be 'discovered' or 'dug up.'

Perceived 'fakeness' of Fi-egos may include:
Taking on the mindset/values of valued contact(s)
Expressing disingenuous emotions to avoid awkwardness (for me at least, I hope people notice, I leave 'breadcrumbs' to prove that I was just kidding, just playing along)
For Fi-creatives especially, the flightiness and random changeability of our emotions.

Perceived 'fakeness' of Fe-egos may include:
'forgetting' negative attitudes when conducive
adopting the general beliefs and ideology of their group with passion (from perspective of Fi-ego, Fe-egos adopt it 'as if it was their own')

I've written a lot more on this, so forgive my 1D Ti any inconsistencies or mis-phrasings. Especially curious in what Fe-egos think of my understanding of them.

[Muddy]

I've never really understood the fuss behind this whole "fakeness" thing. It doesn't matter to me whether someone secretly hates me or not, as long as they aren't planning to screw me over in some way.

I've noticed that Fe leads often get into battles with Fi leads over this exact sort of thing. This backs up the idea I've been having that more fussing and fighting occurs between types with contrary ego elements then between types that hit each others Polrs. As a logical type myself I find myself most often getting into arguments with other logical types about who is doing what the right way.

[Singu]

I've written a lot more on this, so forgive my 1D Ti any inconsistencies or mis-phrasings. Especially curious in what Fe-egos think of my understanding of them.

I think it makes sense... I'd be more interested in how Fi types work.

Fe is well... mainly concerned with what the other person is feeling, and deals with that information. It can manipulate based off of on that information. It can either affect you emotionally, or get a certain emotional reaction or response out of you.

[Exodus]

I've never really understood the fuss behind this whole "fakeness" thing. It doesn't matter to me whether someone secretly hates me or not, as long as they aren't planning to screw me over in some way.

That's the point though -- if someone is willing to deceive you about how they feel then they might not be all that trustworthy. Then again, deception is not necessarily the motivation.

[Muddy]

That's the point though -- if someone is willing to deceive you about how they feel then they might not be all that trustworthy. Then again, deception is not necessarily the motivation.

That's actually one of the reasons why I said I prefer to do things completely by myself rather then involve anyone else at all, unless I'm absolutely confident the other person poses no threat and is always willing to help. I guess this isn't an issue for me since I just bypass the trust issue by relying only on myself.

[Beautiful sky]

I think you have it backwards.
Fe = Internal Dynamics of Objects
Fi = Internal Statics of Fields
Fe-egos are more concerned with negatively affecting the Fe states of others: they hate to make others uncomfortable (unless fighting for a principle), they avoid sending out negative energy in group environments, etc. as this is disruptive and obnoxious and purposeless/wasteful, it just drives people apart and lowers the total energy (less people = less energy = less power/utility/potential for action). Fe-valuers also have the implicit belief that meaning is placed on the individual from outside as a result of one's Ti-connections (group identity, sometimes but not always cultural or ideological).

Fi-egos are more concerned with negatively affecting their Fi-connections with others: they hate to become disliked by individuals as it is implied that it is a character assessment. Fi-doms adhere to strict personal morals in order to be a 'good' person, to be blameless--they are the judgers, not the judged. Fi-creatives follow personal morals as well, but generally more permissive, in order to seek out a greater number of (potentially) valuable connections. Fi-valuers also have the implicit belief that meaning comes from within, is 'generated' by the individual in a way where it must be 'discovered' or 'dug up.'

Perceived 'fakeness' of Fi-egos may include:
Taking on the mindset/values of valued contact(s)
Expressing disingenuous emotions to avoid awkwardness (for me at least, I hope people notice, I leave 'breadcrumbs' to prove that I was just kidding, just playing along)
For Fi-creatives especially, the flightiness and random changeability of our emotions.

Perceived 'fakeness' of Fe-egos may include:
'forgetting' negative attitudes when conducive
adopting the general beliefs and ideology of their group with passion (from perspective of Fi-ego, Fe-egos adopt it 'as if it was their own')

I've written a lot more on this, so forgive my 1D Ti any inconsistencies or mis-phrasings. Especially curious in what Fe-egos think of my understanding of them.

Yes, I agree about the Fi base types.

[Exodus]

That's actually one of the reasons why I said I prefer to do things completely by myself rather then involve anyone else at all, unless I'm absolutely confident the other person poses no threat and is always willing to help. I guess this isn't an issue for me since I just bypass the trust issue by relying only on myself.

Hmmmm...not very ILE of you.

[Myst]

IXTs are just hopeless, so they don't even try to be fake. At best, they use some form of emotional manipulation. But ISTxs are slightly better at it than INTxs.

Hopeless... No, I don't know how to use refined emotional manipulation.

[Myst]

Fe-valuers also have the implicit belief that meaning is placed on the individual from outside as a result of one's Ti-connections (group identity, sometimes but not always cultural or ideological).

Fi-egos are more concerned with negatively affecting their Fi-connections with others: they hate to become disliked by individuals as it is implied that it is a character assessment.
(...) Fi-valuers also have the implicit belief that meaning comes from within, is 'generated' by the individual in a way where it must be 'discovered' or 'dug up.'

I don't get what you mean by Ti-connections in that context. I don't really relate to the group identity thing, I'm very low on soc instinct. Meaning comes from within for sure but I attribute it to Ni for myself.

For the other statement, I wouldn't want to be disliked by some people not because it's a character assessment, I think Fe also doesn't want that, just for a different reason.

[Exodus]

Perceived 'fakeness' of Fe-egos may include:
'forgetting' negative attitudes when conducive
adopting the general beliefs and ideology of their group with passion (from perspective of Fi-ego, Fe-egos adopt it 'as if it was their own')

This is more typical of Betas. Alphas are usually indifferent to group membership.

[huiheiwufhawriuhg]

I rarely fake anything, usually when I dislike something or someone and I want to avoid having an open conlfict with them I simply avoid them, I don't see any reason for pretending feelings that aren't there, but I also don't feel the need to express everything that I feel or think. I usually think that emotions are quite a neutral thing, there are no bad or good feelings and I approach every feelings simply as it is without feeling the need to additionally pretend or fake something. If my mood is crap, then I act that way, because I am a human being and I can have a crappy mood. If I don't like you I won't pretend that I am your best friend simply because there's no meaning in doing that.

[Nehtaro]

I don't get what you mean by Ti-connections in that context. I don't really relate to the group identity thing, I'm very low on soc instinct. Meaning comes from within for sure but I attribute it to Ni for myself.

For the other statement, I wouldn't want to be disliked by some people not because it's a character assessment, I think Fe also doesn't want that, just for a different reason.

Ti-connections, I mean sort of something like where you are 'placed' in the world, the choices you make, etc. which all lead to a certain sort of identity based on boolean connections, i.e. "I am X not Y" in an absolute sense... or better put, the categories one belongs to that one considers significant. In classic fiction tropes, enemies within an organization see past their personal dislike but must acknowledge that they are united by their belief and devotion to the same entity which is bigger than themselves (Starfleet, The Forces of Freedom, Good (vs evil), what have you) and slowly gain a begrudging respect for one another.

For meaning, Ni/Se vs Ne/Si probably does confuse things... for Betas vs Gammas, I see it more as a Beta might say "I feel this calling" and the Beta NFs have a tendency to organize these callings, e.g. "we are all countrymen, and our country needs us!" or more modern and nuanced versions; for Gammas, they may feel a 'calling' but the meaning ends up being more for 'la familia,' more Bonnie & Clyde style. The Fi-Te classic trope would be individuals who dislike each other who are forced by circumstance (pragmatism) to work together, and over time develop a bond.
The lines between these two tropes can blur because they are, more fundamentally, human stories rather than quadra stories.

And for IEEs at least, the feeling of seeing someone lower their estimation of us is quite viscerally painful (all the lost opportunity!), whereas if someone gets uncomfortable about a topic, we see this and usually respect it, but it doesn't 'hurt' us if we see it as being silly. Like a grown man being uncomfortable with frank sex talk, even among his close friends, versus someone who's mother had died a few years ago: both real examples, and for the first I would tease him just to see reactions, for the second I completely avoided any mom jokes or death jokes (which is hard cuz it was middle school) and it was painful when someone else poked at him. Not saying Fe-egos don't tease, but I've noticed they're more likely to respect taboos and avoid anything that might come off as personal intrusion (more formal).

[Singu]

I just have a lot of trouble understanding Fi... god damn. But these examples help.

[Suzaku]

Okay so from experience LSI are the most manipulative type (this is speaking from experience), but they tend to be pretty innocent about it, mostly trying to evoke something out of you because they think that according to what they were thinking it was the logical choice to get the answer they needed to find, and seem to think they got you talking so that's a good thing. But then say there's me. I say things like "I'D RATHER JUMP OFF A CLIFF BEFORE xyz" and that is a bit farfetched LOL but you see where I'm getting at? That could be seen as a manipulative jab towards something but that's usually me saying NO WAY.

But I've had LSI and ILI use very subtle Fe to get me talking or evoke something out of me and I usually will respond to it not realizing at first. Otherwise I generally don't react to people. That can also be seen as manipulation or fakeness. But to me not reacting won't give them what they want, because I don't want to.

[Singu]

But I've had LSI and ILI use very subtle Fe to get me talking or evoke something out of me and I usually will respond to it not realizing at first.

Yeah I think IXTxs are like "logical manipulators"... INTxs are sometimes like "interrogators" that can be good at skillfully manipulating you to talk about something that they want. Interestingly, F types are probably not that good at this, because it becomes obvious that they're "faking it". Or they overdo it, like they use too much enthusiasm or friendliness. Or they become impatient and visibly get angry.

But as a Ni type I find their interrogation technique interesting... I might copy their style lol.

[Suzaku]

Yeah I think IXTxs are like "logical manipulators"... INTxs are sometimes like "interrogators" that can be good at skillfully manipulating you to talk about something that they want. Interestingly, F types are probably not that good at this, because it becomes obvious that they're "faking it". Or they overdo it, like they use too much enthusiasm or friendliness.

Well for me I tend to hyper exaggerate everything because it amuses me, but other people are like what is wrong with this person? But it stems from the fact I've been told I make people uncomfortable by not responding to a lot.

[Beautiful sky]

I just have a lot of trouble understanding Fi... god damn. But these examples help.

Imagine having a loud mounted person for a boyfriend who will start making excessive fun of his friend in front of other friends, who doesn't know when to stop, when to be more sensitive and when to not anger others with slightly aggressive comments. He needs ethical statements to be told "that's too far, you're going to have to be more considerate of other people's feelings" he needs to consider saying or doing things to have or keep good face and have people around and make sure people don't shoot him away because he's being inconsiderate. That's Fi

[Singu]

Imagine having a loud mounted person for a boyfriend who will start making excessive fun of his friend in front of other friends, who doesn't know when to stop, when to be more sensitive and when to not anger others with slightly aggressive comments. He needs ethical statements to be told "that's too far, you're going to have to be more considerate of other people's feelings" he needs to consider saying or doing things to have or keep good face and have people around and make sure people don't shoot him away because he's being inconsiderate. That's Fi

I think that's also Fe... to be honest.

But I do think that you're EII, so if you could, it would be helpful if you could describe more Fi stuff. I think it would be best to explain what's going on inside of you when you're using Fi.

[Beautiful sky]

I think that's also Fe... to be honest.

But I do think that you're EII, so if you could, it would be helpful if you could describe more Fi stuff. I think it would be best to explain what's going on inside of you when you're using Fi.

Oh I read this wrong sorry. Fe is more objective about other people's feelings and less pushy about their personal ethics (aka what I think is the right approach th out or action) so Fe will say "yeah he's really mad right now" because they observed the emotional state

[Beautiful sky]

I think that's also Fe... to be honest.

But I do think that you're EII, so if you could, it would be helpful if you could describe more Fi stuff. I think it would be best to explain what's going on inside of you when you're using Fi.

I've been thinking about this and remembered a situation (Thanksgiving dinner) when I tried to communicate a point to my LSI brother in law and he started to scream at me instead as to reinforce his point of view, my sister came out of the kitchen and screamed back at him saying "Why are you screaming at her? She's trying to tell you something. Instead of you screaming at her listen to what she's trying to say." He didn't like the immasculating and deteriorating affect of her screaming at him because like Beta he's in the position of the father therefore he's the bigger one.

[Alomoes]

My initial thoughts on this are that nobody is "fake". Then I realized you meant they said something in a way which they didn't feel. Weird concept. Anyways, I'm pretty sure expressing a feeling which you don't feel is Fe. I literally cannot do that or more likely are unaware of me doing it. Fe is my PoLR, so it would make sense. I apologize for not conforming to the standard Q U A L I T Y that I try to adhere to.

Note, I came back and thought about it more, but I've yet to find a time where I've expressed a feeling that I did not feel. I've lied, but that isn't the same thing. Weird. I've purposely acted in a way that would seem contrary to the way I felt, but I figured most people would pick up on my true feelings. At least that was the intention. Well, either way.

[Myst]

My initial thoughts on this are that nobody is "fake". Then I realized you meant they said something in a way which they didn't feel. Weird concept. Anyways, I'm pretty sure expressing a feeling which you don't feel is Fe. I literally cannot do that or more likely are unaware of me doing it. Fe is my PoLR, so it would make sense. I apologize for not conforming to the standard Q U A L I T Y that I try to adhere to.

Note, I came back and thought about it more, but I've yet to find a time where I've expressed a feeling that I did not feel. I've lied, but that isn't the same thing. Weird. I've purposely acted in a way that would seem contrary to the way I felt, but I figured most people would pick up on my true feelings. At least that was the intention. Well, either way.

If I express a feeling I do feel it on some level. Fe is just the extraverted side of feeling. I guess to your Fi HA it still feels fake :shrug

[Delilah]

Here's an example of SEE fake: being nice to a friend only in the attempt to steal their significant other and still continuing to act as though they did nothing wrong only to seem like they are a good person.

That's being fake in a relationship way.

I would mind my own business if I met someone who is in a relationship with someone else

Um. I hate to get into this, but i've got a list of incidents as what you describe spanning all quadras, with one exception: one of the initiative-taking parties later came to me for forgiveness and i said what do you think I am, a priest?!

[golden]

My initial thoughts on this are that nobody is "fake". Then I realized you meant they said something in a way which they didn't feel. Weird concept. Anyways, I'm pretty sure expressing a feeling which you don't feel is Fe. I literally cannot do that or more likely are unaware of me doing it. Fe is my PoLR, so it would make sense. I apologize for not conforming to the standard Q U A L I T Y that I try to adhere to.

Note, I came back and thought about it more, but I've yet to find a time where I've expressed a feeling that I did not feel. I've lied, but that isn't the same thing. Weird. I've purposely acted in a way that would seem contrary to the way I felt, but I figured most people would pick up on my true feelings. At least that was the intention. Well, either way.

I think you're right that "expressing a feeling which you don't feel" could be Fe.

I self-type as Fe-dominant, and I care about being sincere, but I find I can generate a feeling by going through the motions of expressing what I think I should feel, and by doing so bring myself into that feeling state. So I'm tricking myself more than I'm tricking anyone else.

It's not always possible. If I'm truly depressed, or if it goes against my morals, or if I find I'm poorly received by other people, I'll either choose not to do this or be unable to. In the case of depression, negative self-talk along these lines turns to "I can't be what you need me to be / what I'm supposed to be."

[Alomoes]

Intriguing. That would make sense based on the theory, as you would still be conscious of your Fi, where as ILI comepletely ignores its Fe. It should be there, just hidden.