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    Cool SLE Thoughts

    Most type descriptions attempt to isolate the functions (e.g., Se Base is like this, Ti creative is like that), or they rely exclusively on observable behavior traits. I'm trying to avoid both of these. Rather, I want to talk about how I think about things and perceive things, and consider how "SLE behaviors/traits" might result. Isolating functions causes stereotyping (e.g., Se in the base function is all about force), and it neglects to show the "whole" of the SLE experience. Behaviors stereotypically manifested by SLEs can happen in many TIMs so it's crucial to differentiate between the outwardly observable behavior and the motivation/processing that leads to said behavior.


    What I write below isn't organized in any particular way; rather, I'm throwing down my thoughts while I'm still thinking about Socionics so that these thoughts don't disappear into the abyss. Below is the first part. Many parts will follow over the coming months because there are a lot of things I want to write about. This post is about abstract object processing and time as space. Future posts will include my thoughts about physical object/space processing, talking about feeeeeeeeeelings, aggressor romancing and some of its subtleties (yeah, you knew that one was going to happen), what it's like to walk down the street, aggressive behaviors, intertype relations, and other things that occur to me the more I analyze my thought processes. If you have thoughts, questions, or topics you'd like me to talk about, just say the word.


    Let's go!


    I perceive unfolding situations as space, and events/objectives of the future as discrete objects within that space. The objects' locations depend on the proximity of the event. I exist in this space too but I don't think about that too much. Things that get in the way of future events/objectives are definitely in the space too, but they're closer.

    For example, say I want to get a new job; the desired event of a job offer is an object in the distance. The other things blocking it are finding a job that's a good fit for me (remember that this process/action is interpreted as an object), and going through the interview process (separate related objects include preparing for it, looking the part, physically making the interview happen, charming the interviewers, extracting important information from the interviewers, etc.). I can see all these objects in space, but only in their current positions. It's hard for me to predict how the objects will move over time; I pretty much only see snapshots of the space. You can act on objects, dodge them, or wait for them to move/appear/disappear. Some objects act how you think they do; for example, there are never difficulties in finding a way to look the part for the interview. You just go out and buy anything necessary and then the "dress" object disappears, while the other objects shift closer. That's a new snapshot.


    The SLE mind wants to eliminate all the obstacle-objects by whatever means necessary in order to get to the goal-objects. Some means are very natural to the SLE, while other means are really awkward for the SLE.


    Some comfortable means:
    Do a job yourself if everyone else will slow things down (e.g., don't ask for permission or others' preferences);
    Get someone else to do the job for you if they're willing and will do it better or more conveniently than you can at the time (e.g., tell everyone you know about your job search intentions, and some of them will volunteer to make connections for you);
    Confront someone directly about something, but only if you're certain that it won't cause any relationship/emotional backlash that you're not able to ignore


    Some neutral means:
    Wading through bureaucracy/paperwork (I don't like this but you'll do it if you need to);
    Mapping out plans (personally, I prefer to be more spontaneous with my timing because my moods vary a lot (e7 related?), but I can do this when there are a lot of things to keep track of)
    Charming people directly (it's hit-or-miss, depending on the person)
    Taking others' opinions into account (personally, I care a lot about specific people's opinions, but not so much about others' opinions.)


    Some awkward means:
    Pretty much anything involving diplomacy/people skills, although this becomes slightly less awkward with age


    The issues come when the objects act differently than you expect them to, or when they move in unexpected ways. This usually happens when using the comfortable means when awkward means are called for. As you may have noticed, the awkward means include having people skills. And since means are used to act on objects, you can deduce that people are also objects in this event-space. The SLE info processing definitely sees people as objects, but it's subtle and pervasive enough that most SLEs probably don't notice it themselves. I probably sound like a total douche, but whatever. I obviously know that people are people and I try to act accordingly, but I've come to notice that most SLE blunders or asshole-behaviors are because of the people-as-object information processing. Now of course I see my friends and loved ones as super people, but if they act as obstacles then my first instinct is to react using comfortable means.


    The "snapshot" aspect of processing the objects in space makes me want to act on obstacles that seem like they're not going anywhere themselves. I always have the urge to do something, unless the object is unimportant or seems like it might do something on its own that can help me. The urge to act is another major cause of SLE blunders.


    SLE self growth comes from learning to use awkward means and by putting in the effort to learn about other people. And also learning how to wait for things.

    More to come, if there's interest.

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    ... Interesting that you say you see abstract ideas of tasks you need to do as "objects in space". I would prefer to describe them as concept-objects in my mental map or mental space. Talking about it the way you are seems like another level of meta-ness I'm not used to seeing my thinking as being ... I certainly don't experience it that way or think of my experiences in that way. Like I know that Ni is basically the inverted version of Se but somehow the way you're terming things leads to what seems like a weird form of conceptualization to me. I know that I organize information about the world in a pretty structured way and that things sort of become discrete pieces of information in my mind that way, but I see how I register the world in my mind as something that is separate from the actual world outside my mind. I see reality as being beyond something that I can structure completely using language/concept, even though my mind is oriented towards structuring it logically. So while in effect I'm doing something like you described, I find your description foreign and hard to relate to through a first person POV. Of course, it could just be a semantics issue I'm having with it or it could just be to do with you describing something very specific here (just abstract objects processing, as you said). But I'm not sure that it's just that. I am not just floating in some void where events pass through me without me being a part of it or aware of myself being just as much of an "object" as other objects are, from my POV. I feel a lot more fundamentally grounded and involved as a part of the world too most of the time compared to the style of thinking you're describing. Of course I can get detached too, but the starting-point frame of mind your mind inhabits seems fundamentally different from mine. Like, this is pretty meta.

    Tldr I wouldn't mix the concepts of mental space and physical space, since we also have terms and concepts like those associated with Se vs. Ni from socionics to deal with around here. But within just the scope of the topic of your post, if we're just entertaining thoughts about our processing in a meta way, I can accept it.

    If we're going to think of ideas as objects though, I would say I definitely think about/perceive "time" as one of these "objects in space". There is always a time element to the actions I take (your abstract objects in space processing model seems very oversimplified and incomplete relative to my own experience, and one of the main reasons is that the role timing plays is lacking...I see time as something that can be interacted with and controlled almost, or at least to a greater degree than how you've described). But, it also doesn't just exist to me as an "object in space"; it also permeates through my mind and body as much as Se does. In fact I would say it is one of the bridges between mental and physical space for me.

    Nice to see another SLE around who can form complete sentences anyhow. Welcome.
    Last edited by niffer; 12-09-2016 at 10:25 AM. Reason: I can't form complete sentences.

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    Nice Of course, two different SLEs may experience the world a bit differently but it's very helpful to describe one's thought process in detail.

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    A very good read, looking forward to future insights Aside from the topics you already mentioned, can you talk about your HA in depth, also in connection to the entirety of the IE process?

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    I like OP's description. I relate to quite a lot of it though no, not all of it. I'm less extraverted and broad to sum it up. More focus on things beyond the pure objects, too.

    The static objects with the space based orientation, including the "abstract" objects in that "mental space" - I don't actually see that as abstract or mental like with Intuition - is very familiar to me but I'm more linear and less flexible with handling it all in one, especially with certain more abstract aspects that are no longer linked to direct space for me like they are for OP, my pov by default.

    I easily extend the awareness of objects inside this spatial aspect in a sense and then treat things significantly less linearly and so also with more flexibility but that's just my secondary mode. Doubtful I'd ever look as flexible-mobile as an SLE.

    Also, OP overall sounds like having a wider focus of sorts and much much less about prioritizing things in structures - in my case I have that both for the directly visible objects in actual space and for the more abstractly "visualized" objects. Those often have deep levels of hierarchies.

    Don't have an issue with objects acting unpredictably except with certain er, people objects (just some of them). Oh and yeah I somewhat relate to the people-as-object information processing part as well but I think my version is more impersonal-detached than yours.


    @niffer
    As for physical vs mental space: I do not think it's that simple. I wouldn't associate the issue of mental space vs physical space with Se vs Ni directly. I didn't see OP as going into Intuition area when describing the "abstract" part.

    Btw I saw OP's style pretty grounded and involved. Very extraverted and practical, quite Se. I see you as less grounded and involved actually in your writing style lol, more Ti-ish. (It's cool btw.) I dunno what you meant by the floating thingy, that's not how I experienced OP's description, more like a very realistic description of moving around objects and manipulating them freely. Yes the focus is less inwards sure (true of me too).

    As for your description of your thinking, I definitely relate to some parts of it closely, too. I told you before that I see you randomly sharing some bits of Ti analysis (on Socionics) that are basically the same as how I put more abstract things into words sometimes. The only difference is that I do seem to go deeper with it and refine some things more than you do but the style is the exact same. Then at other times, I'm not really like that but more concretely structuring things in a sense. I don't really see you do it that way. You always seem more abstract in a way compared to me.

    I know that I organize information about the world in a pretty structured way and that things sort of become discrete pieces of information in my mind that way, but I see how I register the world in my mind as something that is separate from the actual world outside my mind.
    Can you say more on this, the first part specifically? On the surface I relate to how you put all that, with things becoming discrete pieces etc. The wording on "becoming" was a bit strange to me, so please elaborate on that, too, if you are able to.

    I find your description foreign and hard to relate to through a first person POV.
    Okay, a difference between us is that I find OP's description easy to relate to as long as it doesn't get to the Fe parts. And the complete lack of Ni is unrelatable too. The Se parts yes I relate easily to that in my "secondary mode" but with much more of a Ni layer or channel along with where the time aspect comes up in the description.

    I see time as something that can be interacted with and controlled almost
    Can you say more on this too? Sounds cool the way you put it.



    Anyway... I did write pieces before about how I think, if I have time I can try and put it together for a post like this (just for LSI, not SLE, well the people that still type me SLE can try and categorize it as SLE if they see a way to do it lol but good luck to that).
    Last edited by Myst; 12-09-2016 at 06:15 PM.

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    @Ananke if you want to write about your version it would be cool

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    Thanks for the replies, guys! I definitely want to clarify a few things and add extra context to what I wrote, especially in response to what niffer wrote.


    First off, my post was not at all intended to address the immediate/concrete processing that happens more often for me. That'll be a different post. My natural thinking patterns definitely aren't meta but the only way I could describe my mind's "concretization" of abstractions was to write about it in a meta way. Otherwise, Se gets reduced to just force and then Socionics becomes a horoscope. Also, I'm a teacher and part of my training was to learn how to think about thoughts in this way. I came up with my description when I was lying in bed awake one night; when you have like four hours to analyze stuff, interesting things happen!


    Onto individual points:


    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    ... Interesting that you say you see abstract ideas of tasks you need to do as "objects in space". I would prefer to describe them as concept-objects in my mental map or mental space.

    I have a feeling we're actually talking about similar things here.


    Talking about it the way you are seems like another level of meta-ness I'm not used to seeing my thinking as being ... I certainly don't experience it that way or think of my experiences in that way. Like I know that Ni is basically the inverted version of Se but somehow the way you're terming things leads to what seems like a weird form of conceptualization to me.

    I don't think about my thoughts that much, except for when insomnia hits. I wonder how much semantics/writing style has to do with this.


    I know that I organize information about the world in a pretty structured way and that things sort of become discrete pieces of information in my mind that way, but I see how I register the world in my mind as something that is separate from the actual world outside my mind.

    My thought organization is pretty structured, but I don't have as much of a distinction as you do between the mind world and the outside world.


    I see reality as being beyond something that I can structure completely using language/concept, even though my mind is oriented towards structuring it logically.

    Agreed. My description was my best shot at verbalizing the nonverbal (challenge accepted! ). Whatever I can structure of reality gets put in that object-space; whatever can't be structured, well...it's not in there and I'll never have a way of knowing it!


    So while in effect I'm doing something like you described, I find your description foreign and hard to relate to through a first person POV. Of course, it could just be a semantics issue I'm having with it or it could just be to do with you describing something very specific here (just abstract objects processing, as you said).

    Both semantics and something very specific.


    But I'm not sure that it's just that. I am not just floating in some void where events pass through me without me being a part of it or aware of myself being just as much of an "object" as other objects are, from my POV. I feel a lot more fundamentally grounded and involved as a part of the world too most of the time compared to the style of thinking you're describing. Of course I can get detached too, but the starting-point frame of mind your mind inhabits seems fundamentally different from mine. Like, this is pretty meta.

    I can't say I interpret myself as floating in some void space. Rather, what I was trying to get at was that my attention isn't self-focused when I'm processing abstract objects in said space. Of course, many of the objects are fundamentally self-focused (e.g., getting a job is ME getting a job, and I'm therefore really at the center of it), but that's not what I think about at all. I relate very much to what you say about the groundedness/involvedness. This is what it feels like pretty much always. My description was trying to get at the "software" underlying that state, and there's no non-meta way to do this that I know of.


    Tldr I wouldn't mix the concepts of mental space and physical space, since we also have terms and concepts like those associated with Se vs. Ni from socionics to deal with around here. But within just the scope of the topic of your post, if we're just entertaining thoughts about our processing in a meta way, I can accept it.

    That's exactly what my post intended.


    If we're going to think of ideas as objects though, I would say I definitely think about/perceive "time" as one of these "objects in space".

    I process time as physical space that can contain objects. I guess time and what I called "unfolding situations" are analogous. I'd definitely like to hear more about your interpretation here.


    There is always a time element to the actions I take (your abstract objects in space processing model seems very oversimplified and incomplete relative to my own experience, and one of the main reasons is that the role timing plays is lacking...I see time as something that can be interacted with and controlled almost, or at least to a greater degree than how you've described).

    I see the control of time as a direct effect of controlling the objects within the timespace. So, all that object interaction I talked about could extend to time. This is something I'll think about more and add to. If you think my model is incomplete, feel free to add to it too! It would be great to get your thoughts on this too, to help cut through what's semantics, what's missing, and what's not type-related. I could write a book on all this but I work fulltime, so it can't happen in one post or in one day.


    But, it also doesn't just exist to me as an "object in space"; it also permeates through my mind and body as much as Se does. In fact I would say it is one of the bridges between mental and physical space for me.

    I agree with the first sentence, in that time is an aspect of the space for me. I just consider the mental space to be physical space, so I don't draw that distinction.




    Nice to see another SLE around who can form complete sentences anyhow. Welcome.

    Thanks! I've actually been here for longer than you'll ever know...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    A very good read, looking forward to future insights Aside from the topics you already mentioned, can you talk about your HA in depth, also in connection to the entirety of the IE process?
    Yep, I'll add this to my list. Good suggestion! I have a feeling that this topic will be colored quite a bit by enneagram/instinct stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I like OP's description. I relate to quite a lot of it though no, not all of it. I'm less extraverted and broad to sum it up. More focus on things beyond the pure objects, too.

    The static objects with the space based orientation, including the "abstract" objects in that "mental space" - I don't actually see that as abstract or mental like with Intuition - is very familiar to me but I'm more linear and less flexible with handling it all in one, especially with certain more abstract aspects that are no longer linked to direct space for me like they are for OP, my pov by default.

    I easily extend the awareness of objects inside this spatial aspect in a sense and then treat things significantly less linearly and so also with more flexibility but that's just my secondary mode. Doubtful I'd ever look as flexible-mobile as an SLE.

    Also, OP overall sounds like having a wider focus of sorts and much much less about prioritizing things in structures - in my case I have that both for the directly visible objects in actual space and for the more abstractly "visualized" objects. Those often have deep levels of hierarchies.

    Don't have an issue with objects acting unpredictably except with certain er, people objects (just some of them). Oh and yeah I somewhat relate to the people-as-object information processing part as well but I think my version is more impersonal-detached than yours.
    I'd be really interested to see a LSI thread on similar subjects. That would give a really good illustration of mirror differences in general. Interesting about what you say of the prioritizing within the structures. I do that too but more on a whim. #TiCreativeBro I'd like to hear more about what you said with the impersonal-detached people processing.

    I think we need a to make a Beta ST band called People Objects.


    Okay, a difference between us is that I find OP's description easy to relate to as long as it doesn't get to the Fe parts. And the complete lack of Ni is unrelatable too. The Se parts yes I relate easily to that in my "secondary mode" but with much more of a Ni layer or channel along with where the time aspect comes up in the description.
    I could try to get into some real Ni stuff but I can't promise I won't suck at it!

    Anyway... I did write pieces before about how I think, if I have time I can try and put it together for a post like this (just for LSI, not SLE, well the people that still type me SLE can try and categorize it as SLE if they see a way to do it lol but good luck to that).
    Do it!! Fuck the haters!
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    Thanks for taking the time to clear things up! I can relate more fully with how you're thinking of it with that. Actually you put what I was thinking in a better way in your post than I did. ( @Myst you can just read over H2's response to me to see more of what I meant.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by H 2 View Post
    First off, my post was not at all intended to address the immediate/concrete processing that happens more often for me. That'll be a different post. My natural thinking patterns definitely aren't meta but the only way I could describe my mind's "concretization" of abstractions was to write about it in a meta way. Otherwise, Se gets reduced to just force and then Socionics becomes a horoscope. Also, I'm a teacher and part of my training was to learn how to think about thoughts in this way. I came up with my description when I was lying in bed awake one night; when you have like four hours to analyze stuff, interesting things happen!
    That's what I thought About you not being "meta" by default. But wasn't this describing the immediate processing that happens for you by default?

    Btw explain this one more about how you see Socionics becoming a horoscope lol


    My thought organization is pretty structured, but I don't have as much of a distinction as you do between the mind world and the outside world.
    You call "pretty structured" the stuff you talk of in your OP (e.g. the different kinds of means) or is there anything else to it?


    I process time as physical space that can contain objects. I guess time and what I called "unfolding situations" are analogous. I'd definitely like to hear more about your interpretation here.
    You weren't asking me but I think I have more than one way to process time. Primary one is spatial, based on the stuff and the situations around me incl. controlling the objects as you put it. I have a secondary one only subconsciously about feeling time more abstractly and that's hard to describe.

    But for example, where you say "You just go out and buy anything necessary and then the "dress" object disappears, while the other objects shift closer. That's a new snapshot". That's complete lack of Ni to me. I instead have a timeline/course for things -the more "abstract" objects in more "abstract" situations- in my mind that just comes up on its own (not all under conscious control). The objects don't shift in it like this, not spatially but based on timing instead. So I would think this aspect is more Ni for me. My thinking with priorities and deep hierarchies and all that also ties into this, I will have the "dress object" (or equivalent of this) inside that structuring along with that timeline.


    Thanks! I've actually been here for longer than you'll ever know...
    Under different nick? Or as a lurker?


    Quote Originally Posted by H 2 View Post
    I'd be really interested to see a LSI thread on similar subjects. That would give a really good illustration of mirror differences in general. Interesting about what you say of the prioritizing within the structures. I do that too but more on a whim. #TiCreativeBro I'd like to hear more about what you said with the impersonal-detached people processing.
    Lol. Btw I can do the prioritizing stuff on the move but I don't like to change it once I figured out the best way. I don't always have time to perfect it.

    The impersonal object-people processing: well, you said "Confront someone directly about something, but only if you're certain that it won't cause any relationship/emotional backlash that you're not able to ignore". I'm more oblivious about this personal aspect (relationship/emotional aspects you mention). Also that thing about charming people directly, I don't do that. My version of diplomacy is probably also a lot more impersonal than yours.

    Btw while we are at it, I'd say, for me the comfortable means would be, the ones you also find comfortable but also the mapping out plans (draft of a plan definitely, or a detailed one when I have enough detail/information available that I decide to use), the impersonal diplomacy also. The wading through paperwork is neutral to me too, but trying to do people-charming directly would be far worse than awkward - impossible.

    Can I also ask, what are your plans like? It's hard for me to imagine to not move inside the "box" of a plan. Even when it's just a draft of main logical points that I make up very quickly at the moment that I start moving. Even when this draft (or other plan or understanding of the situation/general issue) does allow a lot of moving around manipulating the objects seemingly haphazardly and spontaneously.


    I think we need a to make a Beta ST band called People Objects.



    I could try to get into some real Ni stuff but I can't promise I won't suck at it!
    That's fine! I mean, do get into it and don't worry about it


    Do it!! Fuck the haters!
    Hahaha ok. They aren't haters btw lol (only the people that want to type me ILE or IEE sporadically.. more lol). It's just that there isn't a consensus on which beta ST I am. If I dig in a bit I still can get myself confused too for a second. The mind is complex and these typology models don't account for much of the nuance that I run into when digging. But I digged deep enough to see that my choice for my typing is correct.


    @niffer

    This is still left unanswered if you got time please see below

    Quote Originally Posted by niffer
    I know that I organize information about the world in a pretty structured way and that things sort of become discrete pieces of information in my mind that way, but I see how I register the world in my mind as something that is separate from the actual world outside my mind.
    Can you say more on this, the first part specifically? On the surface I relate to how you put all that, with things becoming discrete pieces etc. The wording on "becoming" was a bit strange to me, so please elaborate on that, too, if you are able to.
    Last edited by Myst; 12-13-2016 at 11:45 PM.

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    Well as your dual, when you said this:

    "Do a job yourself if everyone else will slow things down (e.g., don't ask for permission or others' preferences);
    Get someone else to do the job for you if they're willing and will do it better or more conveniently than you can at the time (e.g., tell everyone you know about your job search intentions, and some of them will volunteer to make connections for you);
    Confront someone directly about something, but only if you're certain that it won't cause any relationship/emotional backlash that you're not able to ignore"

    It made me feel warm and fuzzy inside lol. <3 Because it just means I can kind of be how I naturally am with no clashes and you can be who you are. I mean it ain't that simplistic cuz in social situations there is often more than just the SLE/IEI and nothing really exists in a vacuum but still it is soothing.

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    @Myst

    "Can you say more on this, the first part specifically? On the surface I relate to how you put all that, with things becoming discrete pieces etc. The wording on "becoming" was a bit strange to me, so please elaborate on that, too, if you are able to."

    I'm not fully certain if I'm able to see into my own workings enough to know if I'm getting this right, but it's like information about the world enters my mind and joins into the rest of my map of knowledge about the world. For example looking at a plastic bag, I would subconsciously (or consciously, if I want) absorb info about its physical location in the world at this point in time, how it was positioned, patterns printed onto it, colors .... and then this information would float around and naturally form attachments to other even vaguely related info in my mind. For example seeing the same printed patterns elsewhere I could feel like I've seen them before and have forgotten why, or I might remember the bag. Or looking at/thinking of those patterns, I could be reminded of myriad other things in my knowledge map that have reminiscent qualities. Each of these "things"/qualities is implicitly packaged automatically in there with its own name (otherwise I will describe it or ascribe a name to it if I need to when I consciously pull it up in my mind), as well as the relationships between information.... so while there's a lot of implicitness and interconnection going on there, at the same time the pieces of information also take on a "discrete" form.

    Let me know if that answers your question or not.

    The way you describe processing time, with two 'modes' is more familiar to me too, as well as the timeline shifting of objects. Something like that is part of why I felt something was missing in the OP model in terms of how I process life. Could you please explain more about having deep levels of hierarchies?--What might be an example of that? I have a feeling I might relate to you more with that too.
    Last edited by niffer; 12-14-2016 at 04:32 AM.

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    The notion of time as a subset/emergent quality of physical space/objects boggles my mind. It's the other way around for me! There is a sense of 'flow' and everything else moves within that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuavaDrunk View Post
    The notion of time as a subset/emergent quality of physical space/objects boggles my mind. It's the other way around for me! There is a sense of 'flow' and everything else moves within that.
    The idea that Time is an emergent quality of space is what you get when you play with the equations too much, and chase them (which are only approximations to reality) all the way to their logical ends. Singularities are the same kind of thing. Sometimes this works (prediction of anti-matter) and sometimes it doesn't (solutions of Electromagnetic equations at TIR interfaces). Yes, you can re-write all the fundamental equations of Physics to exclude Time. Anyone who has played with Lagrangians has seen this kind of transformation. That doesn't mean that blindly doing this is going to get you to some place real.

    Usually, when you bump up against something like this, it means that it is time to reformulate the concepts and the equations to be better descriptors.

    Rather than Time being emergent from space, is likely that Causation is more fundamental than space or objects.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal..._triangulation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The idea that Time is an emergent quality of space is what you get when you play with the equations too much, and chase them (which are only approximations to reality) all the way to their logical ends. Singularities are the same kind of thing. Sometimes this works (prediction of anti-matter) and sometimes it doesn't (solutions of Electromagnetic equations at TIR interfaces). Yes, you can re-write all the fundamental equations of Physics to exclude Time. Anyone who has played with Lagrangians has seen this kind of transformation. That doesn't mean that blindly doing this is going to get you to some place real.

    Usually, when you bump up against something like this, it means that it is time to reformulate the concepts and the equations to be better descriptors.

    Rather than Time being emergent from space, is likely that Causation is more fundamental than space or objects.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal..._triangulation
    Sure, except that the thread is about worldviews and how people's brains work, not about science.
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    You guys are the nerdiest SLEs I've ever witnessed

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    @Myst

    "Can you say more on this, the first part specifically? On the surface I relate to how you put all that, with things becoming discrete pieces etc. The wording on "becoming" was a bit strange to me, so please elaborate on that, too, if you are able to."

    I'm not fully certain if I'm able to see into my own workings enough to know if I'm getting this right, but it's like information about the world enters my mind and joins into the rest of my map of knowledge about the world. For example looking at a plastic bag, I would subconsciously (or consciously, if I want) absorb info about its physical location in the world at this point in time, how it was positioned, patterns printed onto it, colors .... and then this information would float around and naturally form attachments to other even vaguely related info in my mind. For example seeing the same printed patterns elsewhere I could feel like I've seen them before and have forgotten why, or I might remember the bag. Or looking at/thinking of those patterns, I could be reminded of myriad other things in my knowledge map that have reminiscent qualities. Each of these "things"/qualities is implicitly packaged automatically in there with its own name (otherwise I will describe it or ascribe a name to it if I need to when I consciously pull it up in my mind), as well as the relationships between information.... so while there's a lot of implicitness and interconnection going on there, at the same time the pieces of information also take on a "discrete" form.

    Let me know if that answers your question or not.
    OK. The phrasing on them "becoming" discrete form was weird to me because for me that's the default. That's what I see by default. Discrete pieces/things. Call it my Rationality I guess.

    I can't relate to your example on the plastic bag, like, at all. With patterns, I see logical patterns first and foremost. Less focused on sensory patterns like you describe this. I don't have associative thinking like this at all. Sounds like Irrationality. Ti comes in front of the Se for me there I guess. That is, I just don't associate things directly using such sensory patterns like you describe. Objects, when I focus on objects directly, are too discretely seen for that.

    Well the one thing I can relate to in the example is, I do have the part of "absorb info about its physical location in the world at this point in time, how it was positioned, patterns printed onto it, colors". That's a snapshot I will definitely have, but actually, I usually see more than that plastic bag, I also see it as an object placed relative to everything else in the entire spatial situation as well. So that's the entire snapshot for me. Not sure if yours includes the relative positionings as well. Objects for me by default are "embedded" in that. I can also look at an object directly if I want to, of course, looking at it more closely than usual.


    The way you describe processing time, with two 'modes' is more familiar to me too, as well as the timeline shifting of objects. Something like that is part of why I felt something was missing in the OP model in terms of how I process life. Could you please explain more about having deep levels of hierarchies?--What might be an example of that? I have a feeling I might relate to you more with that too.
    Timeline - how do you shift objects there? I explicitly said I shift some timings. Not the objects themselves but the timing is what I shift. The Ni part of the timing is not really very conscious for me but I can kinda see it if I really squint A bit like @GuavaDrunk described it, though it really isn't in my face by default, noo. Just sometimes I can notice it a little bit. Not the flow itself, that'd require some really inspired state for a second or two here or there, but something related to it - that is, in my plans, the sense of timing is not fully spatial but uses the results of what this flow would show as good enough timing unconsciously. Essentially, I take some "feels" of timing and work with that. But to emphasize, by default all I can notice consciously when I squint hard is the fact that this is not fully spatial, it's spatial too but also something beyond that a bit.

    Deep levels of hierarchies: well there's some system (any system), it has core principles of the system as prioritized at the top level then everything else just follows from that. Then those levels can go pretty deep in the sense of there being quite some of them. What is your version like?


    Quote Originally Posted by GuavaDrunk View Post
    The notion of time as a subset/emergent quality of physical space/objects boggles my mind. It's the other way around for me! There is a sense of 'flow' and everything else moves within that.
    To me it's pretty natural, that spatial sense of time The flow thingy I hardly if ever directly consciously see but it sounds cool. I half-consciously manipulate it a bit in my plans.
    Last edited by Myst; 12-15-2016 at 02:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    You guys are the nerdiest SLEs I've ever witnessed
    Do you want to describe some of your way of thinking too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    OK. The phrasing on them "becoming" discrete form was weird to me because for me that's the default. That's what I see by default. Discrete pieces/things. Call it my Rationality I guess.
    Oh, well I just said "becoming" because I was talking about the outside world entering my mind as information -- becoming information just in general, even before any idea of processing and sorting it. I think this was just some overfocus in trying to interpret what I said lol.


    Well the one thing I can relate to in the example is, I do have the part of "absorb info about its physical location in the world at this point in time, how it was positioned, patterns printed onto it, colors". That's a snapshot I will definitely have, but actually, I usually see more than that plastic bag, I also see it as an object placed relative to everything else in the entire spatial situation as well. So that's the entire snapshot for me. Not sure if yours includes the relative positionings as well. Objects for me by default are "embedded" in that. I can also look at an object directly if I want to, of course, looking at it more closely than usual.
    Yeah, I see relative placements in entire spatial situations too.
    The plastic bag thing would be an example of me "looking more closely than usual", especially with thinking about things the patterns remind me of.


    Timeline - how do you shift objects there? I explicitly said I shift some timings. Not the objects themselves but the timing is what I shift. The Ni part of the timing is not really very conscious for me but I can kinda see it if I really squint A bit like @GuavaDrunk described it, though it really isn't in my face by default, noo. Just sometimes I can notice it a little bit. Not the flow itself, that'd require some really inspired state for a second or two here or there, but something related to it - that is, in my plans, the sense of timing is not fully spatial but uses the results of what this flow would show as good enough timing unconsciously. Essentially, I take some "feels" of timing and work with that. But to emphasize, by default all I can notice consciously when I squint hard is the fact that this is not fully spatial, it's spatial too but also something beyond that a bit.
    Yeah this works for me too. I didn't get a conscious sense of it at all until I turned 20 though (a feels sense of timing and everything else here). Before that it was more like the snapshots, and like I was always trapped within the current snapshot of the moment that I was living in.


    Deep levels of hierarchies: well there's some system (any system), it has core principles of the system as prioritized at the top level then everything else just follows from that. Then those levels can go pretty deep in the sense of there being quite some of them. What is your version like?
    Can you give a simple example of this with a few hierarchies using some topic? Do you have an example of this within a planning scenario? (I'll answer if my idea of it was even remotely on point with what you do ;P otherwise I'd just be imagining something irrelevant.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Oh, well I just said "becoming" because I was talking about the outside world entering my mind as information -- becoming information just in general, even before any idea of processing and sorting it. I think this was just some overfocus in trying to interpret what I said lol.
    Overfocus? Just as I read the original sentence from you, it instantly jumped out at me as strange/needing explanation. Awakening curiosity, definitely.

    Not sure what you mean by "information" here that you see before sorting it. It's the sensory patterns before sorting them?


    Yeah, I see relative placements in entire spatial situations too.
    The plastic bag thing would be an example of me "looking more closely than usual", especially with thinking about things the patterns remind me of.
    @Ananke also talked about such sensory patterns. Interesting but not how I work O_o

    If I look more closely than usual, I don't associate to other objects by default. I don't even like to associate then, for some reason.

    Would you say your perception of the objects in space is relative to you? Or it's all perceived together relative to each other, without yourself in that picture?


    Yeah this works for me too. I didn't get a conscious sense of it at all until I turned 20 though (a feels sense of timing and everything else here). Before that it was more like the snapshots, and like I was always trapped within the current snapshot of the moment that I was living in.
    I do very much feel in the moment myself, just like I describe in my 80q, "time is something like this... you are in the present, now, an almost nonexistently thin imaginary line or vertical snapshot on a timeline from past to future. The past doesn't exist, the future doesn't exist, only your present moment exists. This is a conundrum to me. But, I do have the present at least and that's fine by me, thankyou very much ".

    But it's overkill to say I was ever trapped within the snapshot of the current moment. Dunno, I never felt trapped.

    "Feel" of timing, that has an aspect that's got a spatial basis and an aspect that does not, I don't know if you were thinking of the former only. I'm curious if you were thinking of the latter too and if so what it looks like for you

    Interesting also how you got more awareness of the timing thingy - whatever it may be - at around 20. I don't recall a change in this for myself, except maybe relatively recently, with some extra glimpses of the actual flow that GuavaDrunk talked of. It's weird


    Can you give a simple example of this with a few hierarchies using some topic? Do you have an example of this within a planning scenario? (I'll answer if my idea of it was even remotely on point with what you do ;P otherwise I'd just be imagining something irrelevant.)
    Just describe your version, it's ok if it's not the same thing I'm curious.

    Example, how detailed do you want it to get? It's basically with me having had the core principles put together after analyzing it all painstakingly. Things that I don't usually see other people express as actual principles. So, then, I just try to see the core from which everything else really follows by logical deductions connecting them. If it's a system put in explicit rules then I want the subordinated rules to follow (by some reasoning) from the main rules. They can't contradict the ones on higher levels.

    Planning scenario, hm same thing really. I mentioned the quick draft of a plan yeah? That has main logical points only. I can again put other points "under" the main ones. Those other ones can get really really detailed if I want them to, all of them having a fixed "place". Less flexible, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Do you want to describe some of your way of thinking too?
    nah

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    nah
    So lazy.

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    H2 and I are the same person, if you all didn't know by now! I don't feel like getting masturbatory in this thread, so my posts from now on will be more real.

    Today I walked in the woods by myself for three hours with the aim of noticing my thought patterns. I went on an empty stomach to see if things would change as I got more tired.

    During the earlier part of the walk, I noticed that I was observing surroundings probably 60% of the time, and analyzing things in my head for the remaining 40%. Part of this was because I spent some hours before working and I had mental steam to blow off. Observing external things is the default that I snap back to no matter what I'm thinking about otherwise. When I was in my head, I was usually analyzing stuff that was left over from before, or creating events in my head based off of what I was thinking about before, or as a reaction to something in the surroundings. I think a lot of this has to do with being Enneagram 7 rather than being SLE specifically. I found myself popping back and forth between external observation and spinning thoughts frequently, with external observations happening in longer chunks than internal thought spinning. It was easier to snap back to external observation than it was to will myself to think about particular topics.

    As I got more tired (mostly during the second half), the ratio of external observation to thought spinning turned closer to 80% : 20%. And my external observations became sharper and more glaringly directed towards specific objects than they were at the beginning. I was thankful that no one was there to see my eyes. My expression probably looked terrifying.

    There were a few times during the middle of the walk where my typical processing patterns were broken from normal. Sometimes when the surroundings were right and there weren't specific objects to take note of, I could go into this trance-like but present/concrete state. For example, I could experience this state if I encountered a clearing in the trees leading to an open field. Like, I was still consciously connected to the things around me but it felt more self-oriented...hard to describe. Although this state is kind of nice when the surroundings call for it, I never have the urge to stay here for long. I tried flipping back and forth between this state and my normal observatory one, and the difference was stark. I think the trance-like state was probably Si.

    And then one really weird thing happened just once. I got to one specific spot and had this flash of that same spot during the winter three years prior. Something about that spot triggered an association to a time that I had not thought about for years. I tried to continue this line of thought and delve deeper into this association, but it didn't really work. This happens rarely and it's always notable when it does happen.

    These alternate states were interesting because they contrast with what I experience normally. I also tried to take note of which external stimuli I am most likely to notice and focus on in my typical states. Usually it's just things in the environment, and my eyes dart from object to object and linger sharply on objects that stand out against the surroundings. I realized that I do this with people too (Se is inclined to objectify people, especially when blocked with Ti), and it probably feels unnerving to be on the receiving end of this. I tried to compare my object observing with my trance observing. When I pushed a trance state, I noticed things like the movement of the currents in the river, and how the positions of the ripples were morphing over time. I'm not inclined to take note of that kind of thing normally. Sounds even took on a different quality. Typically I hear a sound (e.g., a bird squawk) and take note of its direction in space, and try to visually pinpoint where it's coming from. In the trance state, the sounds just were; I didn't take note of the direction/object-derived aspect of the sound. It's weird for me not to place sounds in space when I hear them.

    Especially notable were my eye movements during different modes of thought. In my typical external observatory state, my eyes dart onto different objects pretty rapidly and fix themselves on things of note. When I had spinning thoughts analyzing stuff, my eyes fixed downward to the ground even when my head was up. This took some concentration to notice. This is probably how I can pull back from awareness of surroundings in my thought-spins and not trip over stuff. In that concrete trance, my gaze was more diffuse.

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    i'm drunk

    i love you @Herzy i hope you have time to post more if u can

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    i'm drunk

    i love you @Herzy i hope you have time to post more if u can
    Haha, enjoy the inebriation! I post when @strrrng gives me motivation.
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    When I'm out and about, or even when I'm just doing whatever in my apartment, my consciousness is the objects around me. So my consciousness takes the form of a bazillion different things depending on the surroundings and circumstances. It is an active mental state, even if I'm not actively thinking in the traditional sense or analyzing stuff. You could say that I become the things around me; I'm not thinking about how the things relate to me or how the things relate to each other. There's no real awareness of a self in this state either. Since Se states are naturally objectifying, and Se states minimize self-focus, it makes sense that Se states can come off as assertive. The self inadvertently becomes the objects and loses itself in the process; therefore, it becomes incredibly natural to throw oneself into the surroundings and do unto the objects as a way of being.

    What you're seeing here, and in my posts above, is an after-the-fact analysis. One difference I noticed between my Solitary Walk post and the posts of others who tried this experiment was that I didn't include actual examples of specific things I was analyzing; rather, I gave an overview of the analysis in general terms (e.g., the analysis started out being around 40% of the time, and it involved spinning thoughts). Other posters (e.g., Uniden) gave detailed examples of the things they were thinking about. I think the most details in my posts came when describing certain external details when I found them relevant to an generalized objective of my writing. For example, one thing I was thinking about on my walk was how I accidentally find geocaches all over the place, even though I don't actively search for them. I was thinking about this because I accidentally found one on my walk. The geocache I found triggered a short analysis loop about why I find so many of these things. I wonder, though: why did I not find it relevant to include examples like this in my initial post, when so many others did? I think it's because when I analyze things after-the-fact, it's always in a way conducive to generalization rather than specificity. I could probably write another post on that later.

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    I love these posts @Herzy! It's quite the different to how I experience the world.

    Tonight on my drive home from work I tried really hard to pay attention and focus on my surroundings in order to see how my mind processed them... It did not last very long since my default mode is on my thoughts. I found it to be actually quite difficult to focus on my surroundings without getting tangled into a web of thoughts about the things I saw. The first thing I saw was a building in the distance and I immediately noticed how shadowy and mysterious it looked. A feeling of mysticism occurs to me and I think of ghosts a second later (well, rather than "ghosts" I imagine shadow creatures of the night). I then wondered what the area around the building was like and visualized myself being there for a split second, a slight feeling of wonder and fear.

    I then thought of socionics since I remembered I'm trying to do this experiment, and wondered how I would see the building if I were viewing it through the eyes of a Te ego. Like would a Te ego wonder about the type of building this was and the function and use behind the building rather than the essence associated with the building? I then think of my mom's LIE boyfriend and how he would probably view the building through the eyes of real estate .
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    When I look at buildings, especially like tall buildings, apartments etc. (we have quite a lot of those near where I live...), I actually often think about how it was built... how long it took to build, how many man-hours it took to build, and possibly how much it cost to build... Then I start to imagine the insides of the buildings, as if it were a 3D computer model... I notice how each of the rooms are identical, which makes me wonder if it makes it easier and faster to build... these are mass-built and produced. I think about how fascinating that is. Some architects and engineers designed them... they must be geniuses. I wonder about things like safety and standards. Then I imagine the building when it was still under construction, with the cranes and workers and builders and everything... then I start imagining architects and engineers, designing these buildings with their blueprints in a room... (they are rather stereotypical). Then I start imagining how some real estate managers and bosses decided to erect a building here, on this land... and I wonder about how much money it cost, and how much money they're making, renting people their rooms... Then I start to think some vague ideas about capitalism... money, flow, investment, resources, demand... It's like why... I guess these architects and engineers are just happy being hired by some building company, whom build for the real estaters... It seems like a pretty easy way to make a ton of money, folks...

    Then I walk around more to the store and I look at regular people going to the store to shop... and I think, "What a bunch of sheep! So unthinking and unaware of how things are"... no, actually I don't think that... but I do think about the current political climate and... yeah. Things aren't looking good, folks. I think about how most of these people aren't politically inclined. It's a shame that they're not. I think about where this country is going, people could be affecting and changing things for good. Then I look at some housewives... and I imagine them going back to their houses and apartments... and I visualize them being inside of their homes, cooking for their family or whatever. Why do I imagine these things? I don't know... I often imagine where people are going, what they will be doing in the future, etc.

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    Sounds Te-ish, Sing!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy View Post
    Sounds Te-ish, Sing!
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    Do you ever think that if there was thing like movable bridge or maybe if you could cover with one and change its coverage dynamically? It would be cool if there was a building that reached into outer space (nanotubes). How about linking high buildings into paths as another way of faster light transportation. It's crazy....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy View Post
    Sounds Te-ish, Sing!
    Extremely so.Te but there's also some component analysis. Good resource to keep in your back pocket, though.
    I think bit of assisted imaging families and their roles. So empathy can be reduced to feely robotics?
    Enneagram 3 blindspot. Visual deficits in 4, 8. Triple instinctual blindspot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unsuccessfull Alphamale View Post
    Do you ever think that if there was thing like movable bridge or maybe if you could cover with one and change its coverage dynamically? It would be cool if there was a building that reached into outer space (nanotubes). How about linking high buildings into paths as another way of faster light transportation. It's crazy....
    nah

    Quote Originally Posted by unsuccessfull Alphamale View Post
    Extremely so.Te but there's also some component analysis. Good resource to keep in your back pocket, though.
    I think bit of assisted imaging families and their roles. So empathy can be reduced to feely robotics?
    yah
    , Se-sub
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    Wow I really, really wish I had found this thread sooner. I've been battling with types for a long time both in Socionics ad MBTI mostly due to the Se/Ni placement in the functional stacking of SLE (too much intuition to be a Sensory type, too much sensory awareness and prowess to fit most Intuitive types).Some of the profiles on SLE available fit me to a T, but when it comes to the actual stacking, it ever made any sense for me to struggle with when perceiving and understanding time is one of my trademarks. But this thread really clears it up, and shows how you can't sorely base your typing of people by how they act or express themselves, or any "vibes" they put off.

    Not only can't I relate to anything written by SLEs here as I can't even conceive what it's like to function like that. It's a completely foreign concept I can't wrap my mind around right now. I feel like I've just read a text in Greek or Russian, there's nothing remotely familiar or recognizable here. Like really really weird, I don't see the world like that at all. So it's final.

    I'm not a SLE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    Wow I really, really wish I had found this thread sooner. I've been battling with types for a long time both in Socionics ad MBTI mostly due to the Se/Ni placement in the functional stacking of SLE (too much intuition to be a Sensory type, too much sensory awareness and prowess to fit most Intuitive types).Some of the profiles on SLE available fit me to a T, but when it comes to the actual stacking, it ever made any sense for me to struggle with when perceiving and understanding time is one of my trademarks. But this thread really clears it up, and shows how you can't sorely base your typing of people by how they act or express themselves, or any "vibes" they put off.

    Not only can't I relate to anything written by SLEs here as I can't even conceive what it's like to function like that. It's a completely foreign concept I can't wrap my mind around right now. I feel like I've just read a text in Greek or Russian, there's nothing remotely familiar or recognizable here. Like really really weird, I don't see the world like that at all. So it's final.

    I'm not a SLE.
    Glad I could help! This is why I created the thread to begin with; I noticed that the standard Se descriptions were very one-sided ("Se is all about aggressively shoving people out of your way"), and they said nothing about what it's actually like to have Se as a base function. I think it would be a great resource to have more threads like this one, written by people different types. That way, we can get past bad visual stereotypes and emphasize that Socionics is really a model of information processing.

    So even what I wrote in thread post #23 sounded totally foreign to you?
    , Se-sub
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    yeah @Herzy if anybody irl just suddenly pushed me I would not like it so it's silly to think that's Se dual seeking lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy View Post
    Glad I could help! This is why I created the thread to begin with; I noticed that the standard Se descriptions were very one-sided ("Se is all about aggressively shoving people out of your way"), and they said nothing about what it's actually like to have Se as a base function. I think it would be a great resource to have more threads like this one, written by people different types. That way, we can get past bad visual stereotypes and emphasize that Socionics is really a model of information processing.

    So even what I wrote in thread post #23 sounded totally foreign to you?
    Yes it did. I mean it's clear I most definitely value , but it isn't in a leading position. It's more of a background thing that sometimes seems to even "turn off" for brief periods. Or maybe I just lose conscience about it, because things like getting hit by something for example almost never ever happens, I have some sort of "spider sense" it seems. The thing about the clarity/sharpness of how you literally see things and people (like a 5k image) hit home and also the always knowing where sounds are coming from (I have super fine hearing, I can hear and place sounds like four streets below mine, and it's useless to whisper around me).

    Thing is I can't stay in physical reality observation mode for more than a short period unless I'm actively doing something with it, like playing a sport, hunting or photographing, or watching some sort of artistic display. It's just utterly boring and senseless otherwise, I'm going to give a specific example:my grandparents used to have this habit of placing themselves on chairs in their front yard or sometimes on the sidewalk in front of their houses after lunch, just to "observe the street". I could never understand what's the point of it, there's literally no joy or purpose in doing this, I mean, what do I get? People passing by, cars, it doesn't stimulate me at all, it doesn't feed my mind with anything. I become very itchy and impatient if I have to just stay put and observe the world so to speak, I'm like "Ok, so what am I supposed to be seeing?", it needs to have a point.

    It can be quite fun when you have no choice but to do that (if you're not in a "daydream" mood) like waiting for a bus or something like that. I just don't see what's so interesting in the physical world around me itself. What's interesting it's what happens in it, and what I do in it. As a child and even now I've always been an environment explorer, I'm quite curious and fearless in that sense, but it's because there's something to be discovered, it's new and more importantly, it's active.

    I also have this thing that don't really know if it's necessarily connected to cognitive type in a Jungian sense, but outsides noises are something I can't ignore at all unless I'm engaged on an interesting activity even if it's just an engaging conversation. Then I still can hear them, but they don't bother me, it's just white noise and I can still function on a high level. Otherwise if whatever I have to concentrate on isn't interesting, no matter how important, it's like virtually impossible to turn the world off because it's so loud and clear. It's almost like it's mocking me really, turning the volume up to see me suffer.

    It's at it's worse with music, it's like both my brain and body are addicted to it and I react to it like a puppet. This is why I can't listen to any sort of music while doing chores or reading anything, my attention goes 100% to the music and I can't control it, it's quite bizarre. I also start to dance (not always full out, but like with my feet, shoulders, neck or snapping my fingers to the beat) and sing along or hum songs without realizing, this phenomenon has put me through many embarrassing situations in the past, though I'm used to it now and so are people who know me, it only baffles strangers. When I can identify the impulse to do it and stop myself, it's like it literally hurts me, I can't even explain how uncomfortable it is. It also happens with aggression, I'm not always conscious of my own, but other people are hyper aware, they say they can feel the "waves" coming out of me and it's like there's a forcefield or something. I wouldn't know, I can' feel it myself, when I'm mad my attention is 200% zeroed in whatever it is I want to snap. Like in a trance.
    Last edited by LuckyOne; 05-19-2017 at 04:55 PM.

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    "SLE self growth comes from learning to use awkward means and by putting in the effort to learn about other people. And also learning how to wait for things."

    Likewise, IEI self growth comes from stop being a pussy and to think of other people as chess pieces like you do to get what we want. And learning how to act in-the-now impulsively , instead of waiting patiently forever like some faggot.

    That is why IEI-SLE is so powerful together. Teach other the opposite lesson of what has to learn and so both people improve independently while at the same still get to keep their natural talents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    It's at it's worse with music, it's like both my brain and body are addicted to it and I react to it like a puppet. This is why I can't listen to any sort of music while doing chores or reading anything, my attention goes 100% to the music and I can't control it, it's quite bizarre. I also start to dance (not always full out, but like with my feet, shoulders, neck or snapping my fingers to the beat) and sing along or hum songs without realizing, this phenomenon has put me through many embarrassing situations in the past, though I'm used to it now and so are people who know me, it only baffles strangers. When I can identify the impulse to do it and stop myself, it's like it literally hurts me, I can't even explain how uncomfortable it is. It also happens with aggression, I'm not always conscious of my own, but other people are hyper aware, they say they can feel the "waves" coming out of me and it's like there's a forcefield or something. I wouldn't know, I can' feel it myself, when I'm mad my attention is 200% zeroed in whatever it is I want to snap. Like in a trance.
    You're an SLE lol. Not that anyone needed to read this to know by now...

    Anyone ever wonder why they call Esenin the "Lyricist"? ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    You're an SLE lol. Not that anyone needed to read this to know by now...

    Anyone ever wonder why they call Esenin the "Lyricist"? ...
    Explain to me how works for you, then. Make me a believer by explaining away the one (huge) piece that never fit While you're at it elaborate on how Leading is for you.

    Also who are "everyone"? lol, I don't think anyone here even knows who I am.


    And why is Wikisocion offline?

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